Gary Russell has done a bit of everything in media, from acting when he was young to writing fanzines to writing for Doctor Who Magazine to working for the BBC to co-founding Big Finish Productions, which produces a variety of audio dramas for various TV series including Doctor Who, The Prisoner, Dark Shadows, and more. Gary and I talk about his journey from one opportunity to the next as a “professional fan,” including how he’s made the decision both to take and to leave various positions, why he’s always run his life on instinct, and why he thinks it’s absolutely vital to be able to admit when you don’t know what you’re doing (even when it means baptism by fire), the value of freelancing—why he wouldn’t have it any other way—and a lot more. I really think you’ll get a lot out of my conversation with Gary Russell, even if you’ve never seen an episode of Doctor Who.
Episode breakdown:
00:00 Early desire to be a stuntman leads to acting classes/jobs.
08:56 Other kids at school unimpressed by acting jobsl.
11:35 Switching out of acting.
20:34 People are conditioned not to admit ignorance.
26:28 Recognizing natural endings and embracing them rather than holding on too long.
29:40 Facing uncertainty.
33:30 Embrace new experiences, live a fulfilling life.
36:12 Doctor Who fanzines/freelancing lead to running Doctor Who Magazine.
46:23 Input from others shaped Gary’s core philosophy.
50:14 Warriors of the Deep: Script is good, but the execution is fatally flawed.
58:15 Ignore negativity, focus on what’s important.
01:04:28 The birth of Big Finish Productions.
01:14:32 Moving to the BBC to work on Doctor Who.
01:23:37 Pension provides security, but Gary Russell will never stop working.
01:27:24 Advice for anyone interested in freelancing.
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Want more? Here’s a handy playlist with all my previous interviews with guests in Doctor Who.
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Transcript
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Before we get started, I want to let you know about a way to hang out with me online. If there’s one thing I know for sure, it’s that when ordinary people engage their creativity, they connect with their joy and their deepest selves come to life. I’ve started a newsletter called the spark.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:36]:
It’s a place for me to experiment with my writing and share it with an audience and also a place to get to know you better. I’m using the Substack platform because it offer some really cool ways to connect with readers, including comments and chats. I’d love for you to join me as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage. Because it’s an experiment, you never know what sort of thing I might share on this park, and honestly, neither do I. Could be my thoughts on something I’ve noticed recently, a poem, a response to a photo or a piece of music, or just something completely unexpected. It’s always accessible, always personal, and usually has something to do with creativity. The spark is where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners too, so you really want to be there to hear what’s happening. It is totally free to subscribe, and you can find a link to the spark in your podcast app.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:26]:
So sign up today. I can’t wait to see you there. Gary Russell has done a bit of everything in media From acting when he was young to writing fanzines to writing for doctor who magazine to working for the BBC to cofounding Big Finish which produces a variety of audio dramas for various TV series, including Doctor Who, The Prisoner, Dark Shadows, and more. Gary and I talk about his journey from 1 opportunity to the next as a professional fan, including how he’s made the decision both to take and to leave various positions, why he’s always run his life on instinct, why he thinks he’s absolutely vital to admit when you don’t know what you’re doing even when it means baptism by fire, the value of freelancing, why he wouldn’t have that any other way, and a lot more. I really think you’ll get a lot out of my conversation with Gary Russell even if you have never seen an episode of doctor who in your life. Gary, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Gary Russell [00:02:30]:
Thank you, Nancy. I’m very pleased to be here.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:32]:
So I start everyone off with the same question, which is, Were you a creative kid, or did you discover your creative side later on?
Gary Russell [00:02:42]:
Yes. I was a creative kid. I was very good at school at creative writing. I was writing plays and things for the class to perform when I was about 4 or 5 years old, much to the sheer terror of my school teacher, But I was always very keen on that. And then as I grew older, by the time I was about 10, I was doing acting professionally. So I think that became the sort of the real outlet for my creativity in the writing and the and the fun side of being a kid. I shouldn’t say the Fantastic Kid disappeared, but to some extent, it did. That that sort of instinct for sitting down and just writing and having fun Was taken up, was absorbed by the whole acting thing.
Gary Russell [00:03:30]:
And then when I was at school and I was coming up to do my, what, In the UK was in those days, it was o levels, which is when you’re about 15 years old. Again, I was really having fun, doing creative writing and and, my English language and English literature classes were enormous fun for me. And then in my late teens, I was doing fanzines. I was creating my own fanzines and was becoming part of the sort of the Doctor Who, fan world. And so, yeah, for most of my life, certainly as a youngster, I was pretty much being mister creative and and annoying people whenever possible because that’s the fun of being a creative is is you do things and, You know, my dad would say, oh, let’s go swimming. Let’s go and do judo. Why don’t you go and play football? And I’d be going, no. I I I’d rather be acting in a play or Writing plays or something like that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:27]:
Sure. So how did professional acting come about?
Gary Russell [00:04:32]:
I think it was done initially to shut me up because I I wanted to I wanted to be an actor from a very young age. Well, the first thing I wanted to do was be a stuntman. I used to watch westerns. I can remember gunfight at the Okay Corral And has a gunfight at the end. Oddly, it’s in the title. And there was a a cowboy who gets shot. I think it’s gunfire to the okay ground. There’s a cowboy who gets shot, and he falls off the top of a building, and he drops down 1 floor and then hits sort of slanted roof over the horses And then drops and then hits the floor.
Gary Russell [00:05:06]:
He’s dead. He’s very dead. And I remember watching that and saying to my mom who was watching it as well, That’s what I wanna do. I want to be the guy that gets shot and has to do that stunt. I think my mom must have said that’s the stuntman, not the actual actor. And I said, that’s what I wanna do. I wanna get shot and fall off buildings and hit other buildings and then hit the ground. And I would have been 6 or 7 at the time, and I think my mom looked at me In kind of that fear that that that parents must have when their child suddenly says, you know, I want to become a policeman, Or I want to become a nuclear physicist, or I want to become a private eye stalking people with guns and knives, And I said I wanted to throw myself on the top of the room to get shot, and so she sort of, over a period of time, convinced me that maybe Being hurt wasn’t the greatest way of earning a living, but this was in the back of my head.
Gary Russell [00:05:59]:
And I used to do things. I used to go to parties with friends at school, And I would sit for the evening and entertain not the other kids, but I entertain their parents by doing impersonations. And and, you know, at the age of 8, I’m doing stand up routines. Really weird. My mom would come and pick me up from the party, and all these women who at the party would say, well, I mean, that’s your that’s your son. You should get him on the stage. Oh, yeah. He’s so all of this was going on, and I really wanted to do it.
Gary Russell [00:06:26]:
And let’s say, my my dad wasn’t Particularly, Katie. It was all football and judo and swimming, and, you know, I don’t think acting is really something you should be doing. And none of those things worked, because at the back of it, it was I want to go off and do acting. So my mom enrolled me in a drama class 1 hour a week, and that’s all it was. Just a Monday night for an hour, 7 o’clock to 8 o’clock. But they also happen to be an agency. So they were sending kids up for auditions for things all the time, and I started going up for lots of auditions And lots of auditions and lots more auditions and not getting anything, and then one day I did. And that was the start of From the age of 10 or 11 through to about 19, I was working regularly as an actor.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:10]:
Was it everything you expected it to be?
Gary Russell [00:07:13]:
And more. I loved it. I literally loved it. I wasn’t very good at it, but I loved it. It was it was What I needed, I think, as that outlet, as that creativity, as a precocious child Probably needed to be taken down a peg or two. So what’s the best thing you do? You put them on television. Yeah. Because that takes them down a peg or two.
Gary Russell [00:07:37]:
But it did actually because, of course, they don’t go back to school. And, you know, you’d be kind of like, yeah. I’ve just done a Series on ITV called the famous five, and everyone at school is going, yeah, Anne? Is that supposed to impress us? Because believe me, it doesn’t. We don’t care. And I was like, oh, oh, okay. They’re treating me like a normal human being. That’s quite nice. I like that.
Gary Russell [00:08:02]:
So I never had to put up with any of that kind, and I didn’t create for myself any of that kind of stariness because the people I was with at school were just completely and utterly Disinterested in what I just spent my summer doing. They were like, yeah. Okay. You did that. Well, I went to France, or I went to the Lake District, or I stayed at home and helped my parents build a kitchen. You know? Everyone did something in the summer. There’s nothing special about the fact you went down and made a TV show. And I thought I quite like that.
Gary Russell [00:08:31]:
That’s quite nice. So I was always very grounded. I never became kind of grandiose about any of it, which I think is Probably a blessing. I mean, I think, you know, if I had been that obnoxious child that goes, I’m an actor. You have to treat me especially. I think I’ve probably got the shit kicked out of me at school quite quickly by a lot of very large, taller people.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:53]:
Absolutely. Yeah. So I know
Gary Russell [00:08:56]:
it’s it’s a self defense mechanism. It’s going to be a star, and nobody at school ever really talked about it. They all knew I did it, But it wasn’t special or important to any of them. I have no I can genuinely tell you. I have no idea if people at school ever watched it, stuff I did. I mean, I said I did I did some fairly big things as a kid, and I don’t think they ever did. Or if they did, again, they never talked about it. It wasn’t Until many years later when I was about 2021, and I would start going up To London and I, I remember walking around the Virgin Mega store once, and there were a couple of teenagers who I obviously had never met before in my life, And they were looking at me across the sort of the LPs in the Virgin Megastore, and I was caught their eye, and then I carried on.
Gary Russell [00:09:43]:
And then they started singing the theme tune to this TV show I’d been in, and I thought are they doing that to take the Mickey? Are they doing that because they’re trying to work out if it really is me? And I opted for the yeah. They’re there to take the piss out of me. And for very many years after that, That was kind of a triggering thing for me, and I kind of didn’t ever talk about it. I if people trying to talk to me about having done this TV stuff when I was in my early twenties, Brick walls went up. I was like, no. No. No. That’s it took a long time for me to sort of accept that that’s what I had done as a kid and a teenager.
Gary Russell [00:10:21]:
But while I was ignoring all the the TV stuff, I was starting I was still doing my fanzine, and then I started writing Professionally, completely out of the blue for Doctor Who Magazine. One day, this this nice man wrote to me and said, Do you want a job? Okay. Because we’d met at a convention, and I think one of his other writers had disappeared overnight, and he was desperate. And he said I mean, I’ve still got the letter somewhere, where he said, you seem to be one of the more Eruditus and intelligent Doctor Who fans. I had no idea what that meant, but I went for it. I went, yes. Absolutely. And so I started working for Doctor Who Magazine, doing odd articles for them, and everything else spiraled from that, really.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:12]:
That’s amazing.
Gary Russell [00:11:14]:
Yeah. So that’s that’s that’s that’s my creativity. So that was the longest possible answer to that very simple question that I’m sure everyone else answers in about 30 seconds.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:23]:
No. Not necessarily. Not necessarily at all.
Gary Russell [00:11:29]:
Good. Good.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:29]:
So so what made you stop acting and start focusing more on the fan stuff?
Gary Russell [00:11:35]:
I stopped acting for the simple reason. I I Watch myself on TV and when you’re really not very good at this. And there were lots of acts back in the day. So Picture me at about 17 or 18 years old, dark haired, skinny, dark eyes. Back then had what would be considered these days quite a posh English accent. Well, people like that in the 19th late seventies and early eighties were 2 a penny to casting directors. So you had to be really, really good at it to keep getting work, and the people I was meeting at auditions extro were infinitely better at it than I was, and I began to realize that, you know, you’d go in and and oh, as you said, there were 2 friends of mine, A guy called Josh and a guy called Rupert and myself, and we keep finding ourselves up for the same parts on every audition. And we’d look around the room, and then one day, I’d get a part or Josh would get a part or Rupert would get a part.
Gary Russell [00:12:38]:
And then 3 months later, we’d be back in another audition. Oh, hi. Yeah. And then Rupert would get the part, and then another audition would happen, and Rupert would get the part. And Josh and I, every time we said, Josh is Rupert’s here. Should we just go home? Because he’s gonna get this part, isn’t it? And this was a man called Rupert Graves, who’s still, incredibly successful today. But, you know, he he he’s the reason I gave up acting because he got all the parts. But, you know, back then, we were incredibly similar, and we look Same, and we’re the same age, and and we knew each other, and it was just like, yeah.
Gary Russell [00:13:13]:
Every time I went for an audition, group of creats got it. I’m really not very good at this, and I wasn’t. You know? There’s no getting away from it. I was I was better when I was sort of 12, 13, 14, but by the time I was 18/17, I was rubbish. Absolute rubbish. So I didn’t mind giving it up. I think my mother was heartbroken, but I was I was very happy to Move on from that. I kind of even when I was acting, I learned very quickly that I was more interested in behind the scenes stuff.
Gary Russell [00:13:43]:
It seemed a logical progression. I had for a long time, I was going to be a I was gonna be a massive film director. That’s what I was gonna be. I was gonna go to Hollywood. Direct Hollywood movies. Oh, well, I was gonna direct big TV shows, or I was gonna direct a sitcom, or I might direct an advert, Or I’d probably direct a stage show, or I’d do absolutely nothing directing at all, which, of course, is what then happened. And it all sort of pushed me towards writing, and and and writing became And the main thing, whether it is journalism writing or book writing or whatever. It was a long process.
Gary Russell [00:14:17]:
Sort of I don’t think I’ve ever reached, a career pinnacle, if you like. People have said to me, you know, what did you set out to do creatively? Because I can’t do anything else other than creative work. I’m rubbish at you know? I can’t work in a bank, or I don’t understand how computers work or anything like that. I’m pretty sick. So it had to be a a creative thing, and I realized that I never had a career path. I never mapped out what I wanted to do. I have lived my life from from the age of about 20 going, well, I’ll do this for a few months, and I’ll do this for a few months, and I’ll do this for a couple years, and I’ll do that, and I’ll do this. And and, you know, work wise, I’ve I’ve taken jobs.
Gary Russell [00:15:08]:
They’ve always worked I’ve always worked in the media in one form or another, doing a variety of different things. And I’d do a job for 3 years, and then I get bored, and I go back to freelance. And then the money would run out after 2 or 3 years, so I’d get another job for a few years. And And every job was different from the last one, and every bit of freelancing was different from the last one. And in that you know, I’m now 60, and that that’s still how my life has been, and I’ve never regretted a moment of it, but I’ve never sat down either with myself or with anyone else and gone, what’s my career plan? What am I doing? What do I want to achieve? Nothing really because I’ve achieved it all. I’ve you know? I don’t know that I wanted to achieve something until I’ve done it, and then I go, Oh, right. Oh, that was quite a little. I went to Australia for a few years.
Gary Russell [00:15:56]:
Complete that. If someone said to me, do you ever plan to move to Australia and run an animation studio? No. That was is about as far removed from anything that I would ever imagine doing. But because nobody said that and instead said, Would you like to come out in a few weeks and run an animation studio for a few years and and, you know and I went out there thinking, I don’t know what I’m I haven’t got a clue what I’m doing. I don’t I’ve never run an animation studio. I’ve never run a business. I’ve never exec produced a TV show. I’ve never written scripts for a TV show, all 4 of which I had to do in the space of about a week and a half of of Couple of things happening in Australia, and suddenly I was in charge.
Gary Russell [00:16:38]:
And it was like, oh, this wasn’t on my shopping list of things I wanted to do in 2013, 14. Thank you very much. But you do. You sit down, and you do it, and you just go, alright. That’s quite exciting, and that’s new. That’s different. Hopefully, we’re all in the same boat. We’re all a bit finding our feet.
Gary Russell [00:16:57]:
There must be people around that I can knock on the door and say, How do I do this? I’ve never been scared, ever in any job I’ve done, whether it’s freelance or or full time. I’ve never been scared to say to someone, I don’t know what I’m doing because that’s just stupid, and that leads to making mistakes, and that leads to people never wanting to work with you again. So I’m always quite upfront and go, alright. I’m in this situation. I don’t know what to do. Give me some help. Give me some advice. I don’t want you to do it, but I want you to tell me what I should or, more importantly, shouldn’t be doing at this point.
Gary Russell [00:17:33]:
And that that’s always Held me in good stead throughout my life as well.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:39]:
This is so fascinating to me because for for multiple reasons. I mean, one of which is so many people would say, I, under no circumstances, can admit that I don’t know what I’m doing for a start.
Gary Russell [00:17:51]:
It’s a big problem, isn’t it?
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:52]:
It it is. But but also so many of us here from the time that we’re kids that we need to know What it is we wanna do, we need to have a plan. You know, the classic interview question, you know, where do you wanna be 5 years from now? You know, the the like, we need to have all of this stuff mapped out, and yet my strong sense just in listening to you in the last couple of minutes is that if you had had a plan, you wouldn’t have done many, if not all, of the things that you’ve done.
Gary Russell [00:18:26]:
I think I think if I’d been sat down at the age of 15 when most people are, And some careers advice person had said to me, what do you wanna do? What’s your plan? I’d have been a deer caught in headlights going, I don’t know. I also think if I had sat down and written a plan, then I could have done. I would’ve I’d still be looking at it now and go, I literally didn’t do anything on that plan I wrote down. The life didn’t work out that way, because I I follow I follow my instinct always. I follow my guts. I’ve always been very lucky. There’s no talent involved. I’ve just been very lucky But for most of my life, I’ve been standing in the right place in the right time and come into somebody’s field of vision, and they’ve gone, ah, that’s the person that we needed.
Gary Russell [00:19:11]:
9 times out of 10, it’s worked as well, and I have been the person they needed. A couple of times, it’s been the case that, no, I was totally wrong for something. I I did a job, because I’ve worked in magazines quite a lot, but I worked on 1 magazine, which I thoroughly enjoyed as a magazine working on, But the job they gave me was as far from not just my comfort zone, doesn’t mind that, but my skill set. I mean, it was really was Completely off my skill set, and they made a mistake in offering me the job, and I made a bigger mistake by saying, yes. I can do that. And I only lasted about it was less than a year, I think, before I I turned around to the editor one day and said, Before you fire me, I think I should probably give you my notice. And he went, that would look better than me firing you, which I’m about to do. So why don’t we have a nice, gentle, happy parting of the ways? And I was like, bye bye.
Gary Russell [00:20:06]:
Because I just couldn’t do the job that they asked me to do. I could do other jobs in that office quite happily, but the main part of My job that they needed, I didn’t have the skills for, and it was blatantly obvious. And, yeah, everything was going wrong, and I was like, oh, don’t wanna do this, So I I ran away. So I can run away when I need to.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:29]:
Yeah. Well, that’s the other thing that that seems to be frowned upon. You know, they they’re running away.
Gary Russell [00:20:34]:
People are taught from a very early age, a, as you say, not to ever admit they don’t know something, Which is just bizarre. Mhmm. But they’re they’re they’re somehow conditioned to think that knowing when to quit is a bad thing, that that It’s a sign of weakness or something, and that that’s a very sort of, I don’t know, patriarchal kind of thing. I suppose it is quite Victorian in its in its Outlook. And it’s I have to say it’s particularly true with men, I think. Men are expected not to be weak and feeble and and run away screaming, and I’m very happy to be weak and feeble and run away screaming because I’ve got a very good self preservation matrix inside my head, I think. But, also, it’s a form of honesty. I think people that stick in jobs and do things that they can’t do and try to bullshit their way around it and cover it up and and for fear of being exposed for being weak Are actually not doing their own mental health any good, but they’re not doing the job any good either because they’re gonna get it wrong eventually.
Gary Russell [00:21:41]:
And, you know, When you’re editing a magazine, the most thing you can do is the magazine might get late or have a couple of typos in it. If you’re a firefighter or an ambulance or Policeman, you can kill someone by by not being honest about whether or not you can and want to do this job. So, yes, that kind of toxic masculinity goes right back into every kind of job, and people think it’s a new thing and think it’s a very sort of Physical thing, I suppose. It’s it’s a very physical job, but it isn’t. It goes into every walk of life. There is a thing that, as a man, You are expected not to admit you don’t know something or you’re you don’t want to do something, and that’s terrible. That’s awful, and that’s why we have So many people in their forties and fifties having nervous breakdowns these days because they spent the previous 25 years being forced to do things that They knew instinctively wasn’t right for them. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. We’re we’re trained to try to override instincts.
Gary Russell [00:22:44]:
Yes. Yes. We are we are we are the rabbit’s caught in headlights. We’re we’re we’re trained, to stand dead still and get hit by the car Rather than go. Yeah. Actually, the sensible thing we’d do would be keep crossing the road and see what’s on the other side and let the car go past.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:00]:
Yes. Yeah. It’s amazing that anything works considering that that’s what we’re all trying to do.
Gary Russell [00:23:09]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. But, you know, I think half the time when things don’t work, that that’s why. It’s because of the wrong wrong people. I think politicians are very high on that list of, you know, politicians and CEOs of companies get to the position in life they’ve got to, Usually through not talent, and I think there must be an awful moment where they wake up one day and go, oh god. I’m running a country, Or I’m running a department or and I haven’t got a clue what I’m doing, and I don’t want to do this, and I but they’re too scared. They’re too there’s you know? Other than the the financial recompense that they’ve got very good jobs and wives and kids and all of this sort of stuff that they don’t want to change. There is that that general fear of I can’t say.
Gary Russell [00:23:57]:
I don’t know how to run this department in the government. So they stay there, and they get more and more and more wrong. And the quickest way to get out of it is to have a sex scandal, and then they get fired. And I think half of them go away going, well, that was awful for the 5 minutes that my sex scandal was exposed, Oh, dear god. I’m free of having to do this job, and I think that’s it’s a shame they get to that stage and in doing so, Probably ruined half a dozen countries, but Right. I do think it’s all part of the same thing as as everyone is too scared to go, you know what? I’m not very good at being a prime minister. Hang on. Just walk away.
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:33]:
Right. Right.
Gary Russell [00:24:36]:
Or a president Or whatever.
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:38]:
Or whatever. Yeah. We could spend an entire hour just on that if we weren’t careful.
Gary Russell [00:24:47]:
We would be boring people to death, and they would be falling asleep listening to this going, what is that stupid Englishman talking about? Oh.
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:56]:
I doubt it, but I I think that that there is a lot to be said for the lost art of following your
Gary Russell [00:25:03]:
gut. Instinct. I always followed instinct. I’ve always if I can see something coming towards me in a job or a situation, then I think, No. This is the point to jump off the train even if it’s still moving, and I’ve done that all my life. It’s partly self preservation, and it’s partly knowing that if you stick around, it’s gonna go wrong for other people as well. You’re not helping them by sticking around. And people do the whole facile kind of, oh, no.
Gary Russell [00:25:34]:
Don’t leave. We don’t know what we’d do without you. And you think, actually, experience has shown me 30 seconds after I’ve walked out the dorm, we’ve all had a farewell drink. You will get on with your lives, and you get on with your jobs, and you do it perfectly well without me. So don’t feed me that nonsense because it is nonsense. No one in life was taught at a very early age that no one in life is indispensable. Literally no one. And the only problem is when you meet people who think they are indispensable.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:01]:
Mhmm.
Gary Russell [00:26:02]:
Because that, again, is is like You’re you’re hitting your head against a brick wall with those kind of people because they can’t see it. I’m very good at going. Nope. I’m, in fact, completely dispensable and less dispensed with me now. And and that’s what’s kept my creativity, I suppose, reasonably fresh and ticking over is because I’ve never stuck at anything for very long. Now you could look at it and go, yeah. He’s never stuck at anything for very long. He must be a bit crap.
Gary Russell [00:26:28]:
And that’s Perfectly valid thing, and I’m sure there are members of my family that would absolutely criticize me for not sticking anything for very long. I I have always known from an early age, and maybe it was the acting thing. Maybe it’s because at a point where Children are becoming adults and learning about the world and their place in it. I spent my entire life Working with adults from from sort of the age of 10 to about 15, other than any kids that happened to me in the shows I was doing, Everything was about working with with grown ups, and, therefore, I think that ages you. I think that sort of You you bypass I I certainly think I bypassed the teenage years. I I don’t think I was ever the sort of sucky, snotty teenage boy that Most people at my school were to their parents, and and I think I wasn’t that at all. So I think I’ve always had a fairly Good sense of things coming to a natural end and and not extending stuff beyond what it should be.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:33]:
How has it been when you’ve jumped and haven’t known what was coming next?
Gary Russell [00:27:38]:
Well, I would say that’s every single time. If I’ve been in job, I’ve been in full time employment, and I’ve jumped. It is always but I’ve never had any I’ve never jumped out of a job thinking I know what I’m doing. I’ve got a job to go to. I might be a little bit of freelance, but certainly not enough to, you know, pay the mortgage. What’s it like? Terrifying, I suppose. But, again, it’s a self preservation thing. I’ve only done it because I know I had to do it.
Gary Russell [00:28:05]:
I don’t think I’ve ever willfully left a job or left anything going, I’m giving this up because I can. I’ve given some up because I needed to, because I I knew that that natural end had come up, and either someone else is gonna get rid of me, Oh, I was just gonna die. You know? My brain was gonna atrophy, and I was gonna sit there going, oh god. Kill me now. I’ve only ever been Fired from 1 job. Well, made redundant, but it was basically a firing from 1 job. I didn’t enjoy that very much, But that’s because I don’t think in my head, although I knew it was getting close to it, I hadn’t got to that point of, I need to leave this job. I know I was sort of going towards that and thinking, I think I’ve probably got another year in this job, and then I can leave.
Gary Russell [00:29:01]:
And then when literally out of the blue one day, oh, can you come and have a meeting? Alright. We’ve decided to change a few things, And, we don’t need you anymore, so could you be out of the building by midday? And this is 10 o’clock on a Wednesday morning, and I’m like, Oh, okay. And I wasn’t expecting that, and that was going home and sitting on the sofa and and sort of staring at the walls going, I’m not quite sure what happened there, and that took a while to process. And that’s the only time that’s happened to me where I’ve had to Process. Oh god. I’ve got nothing. Mhmm. Whereas every other time I’ve left a job, it’s been my choice.
Gary Russell [00:29:40]:
So even if I don’t have anything. I am mentally prepared for the fact that I don’t have anything. I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever been quite so stupid that I’ve left a job Without having a slight plan to make sure I’ve got a little bit of freelance to pay the mortgage at the end of the month, but I’ve certainly left jobs And thought I’m doing this, and I can survive for the next month, but I don’t know what I’m gonna do the month after that. Let’s find out. Isn’t this going to be exciting? But, yeah, that was the only time that that someone made that decision for me, and and I really was I did sit at home and think, This is this is unexpected. I wasn’t prepared for this. I better phone an awful lot of people and say, I’ve just been kicked out of Marvel. Have you got any work going? You know? Which is exactly what happened, actually, is that somebody I phoned up and said, I’ve been kicked out of Marvel.
Gary Russell [00:30:35]:
And they worked for publishing as well, and they went, oh, that’s interesting. I’m about to lose my production editor in a month’s time. Month, 6 weeks’ time? And I went, yes. What’s the job? And they said you’d be a production editor on a gaming magazine. It was when PlayStation was very first launched. Very first PlayStation, I think. PlayStation magazine. And I you know, this was on a phone, so I couldn’t see their face.
Gary Russell [00:31:09]:
But if they’d seen my face, My face would have been going, are you insane? I know nothing about games. I’ve never played a video game in my life. It I don’t never touched a computer in my life. It’s all Completely aimed to me, but, of course, my voice down the phone went, that sounds amazing. Fantastic. Yeah. I’d love to do that. And that’s what I was saying, that idea of going in and going, I don’t know what I’m doing, but let’s give it a go because what’s the worst that can happen? They can say, okay, after the end of the 3 month trial period.
Gary Russell [00:31:37]:
Gary, I’m really sorry this hasn’t worked. Bye bye. But I thought, well, this is different. This is new. This is this is I mean, I would have been About 32 at the time, and I was thinking, yeah. This is gonna give me a new skill set. Production editing. I’d not done production before, but I knew how to do it because I’ve worked with production editors at Marvel.
Gary Russell [00:31:58]:
But I knew nothing about computer games. I knew nothing about PlayStation. I knew nothing. I had no interest either, to be honest. But I went into it going, right, treat this as something new and exciting and and different, and This wasn’t on the game plan that never existed, so let’s go for it. And I did, and I and I thoroughly enjoyed myself. I still can tell you nothing about computer games or video games. I still can’t play them.
Gary Russell [00:32:23]:
I still don’t want to play them. But for a year and a half that I was there, I was quite a good production editor, and and got the magazine out every single month on time. And that’s kind of the job of the production editor, so I was alright to that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:38]:
I I love that this is such a a cool way to just, as you say, try new things, experience new things, you know, stuff that you would not have expected
Gary Russell [00:32:48]:
Life is ridiculously short, and if we don’t do things, if we sit down and go, I can’t do that. I didn’t expect to do that. I don’t want to do that. What’s the point of being here? It’s much better to to try these things. I mean, that said, Conversely, because I’d like to argue with myself, a friend of mine I didn’t know about this, a friend I’ve known for about 25 years, having coffee with them On Friday, just casually dropped into the conversation, but they’re a fully trained skydiver. And I looked at them So you you you work in a hospital? Yes. But years ago, I changed as a skydiver. Okay.
Gary Russell [00:33:30]:
Why? Well, I thought it’d be a fun thing to do. There was something inside my head when, yeah, actually, when I was that age, Maybe if someone had said, do you wanna train as a skydiver? I might have said, yes. I wouldn’t have done 2 skydiving Because that would have evolved this bizarre idea that you go up in an airplane and you walk out of a door and there’s no ground beneath you. Karma’s never going to do that in a 1000000 years, But it was that you know, what he was expressing was that same basic thing of he did it because it was something he’d never expected to do, and someone had offered him that and you went for it. And I thought, yeah, that that’s that’s a sign of a life well lived. That you go off and you do stuff, and you should never be afraid unless it involves Jumping out of airplanes without a parachute. You should never really be afraid to give anything a go because, a, you might like it, b, it might like you, and and see if it doesn’t, it doesn’t really matter. It’s a few weeks, months, years of your life.
Gary Russell [00:34:30]:
We’re here for such a short space Time, it’s much better to have tried things and failed or got it wrong, but at least you’ve had some experience and done it. The idea Of going to work in a bank at the age of 19 and retiring at the age of 65 In that same job or that same industry, I should say. I’d rather throw myself out of the airplane without a parachute, frankly, than ever do that. And that’s terrible. And I’m sure there’s people listening to this go, excuse me, but I work in a bank, and I have worked in a bank since I was teen, and I’ve been here man and boy, and I have a very nice pension and a carriage clock when I retire. And that’s all well and good for them, but it’s not for me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:12]:
Extricate. It works very well for some people, and it doesn’t work at all for other people, and it’s okay for everybody.
Gary Russell [00:35:19]:
Definitely.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:20]:
Definitely. So since this episode phoned
Gary Russell [00:35:23]:
you, haven’t I? I confirmed you. No. No. No. Phoned you. I love it. I can see your face, and you’re kinda thinking, What crap is this guy talking? I know. What is going on about jumping out of airplanes without a parachute? What? Extro
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:38]:
No. This is the kind of stuff I really love. I’m I’m just trying to kind of figure out because you’ve done so many cool things, and I wanna make sure that we get to talk about some of them, like how to how to get back to them. Because you mentioned just spontaneously being asked to write for Doctor Who Magazine, which seems like a good place to go back to potentially. Okay. So so yeah. I mean, in the because I’m also fascinated by The fact that you seem to have had so many spontaneous requests like that come up, which I just find amazing.
Gary Russell [00:36:12]:
Okay. Jack of all trades, master of Absolutely none other than at 60 years old. Well, the DWM job came up simply because I had done my fanzine, my Doctor Who fans in for many years. At the same time, I was editing the newsletter of the Doctor Who Appreciation Society in the UK. And so every single month, I would phone up Alan McKenzie, who by then was the editor of Doctor Who Magazine, document monthly as it was then, for news and say, you know, what’s in the next issue? Or, actually, usually, what’s in the next 3 issues because we were working quite somewhere in advance.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:45]:
Mhmm.
Gary Russell [00:36:47]:
And we’ve got talking on the phone, and we would just chat. And then one day, we met at a convention. And I went, oh, Alan, I’m that idiot that phones you up Every month on a Tuesday afternoon, it makes your life hell and asks you for cover proofs and things. Oh, great. Good to meet you, mate. Yeah. Fantastic. Walks away.
Gary Russell [00:37:04]:
And then as I say, A week later, this letter arrives saying, do I wanna start writing for Doctor Who Magazine? So I thought, okay. So Alan said, why didn’t you come down to my flat, and we discussed it? Well, Alan lived in London, and I didn’t live anywhere near London. What I did, got on a train, tracked up to London is an example of a a new good experience. Went to to part of London I’d never been to before. Alan cooked food that I’d never tasted before that night, and we watched, a French film with English subtitles, Which I had never done in my life before, called Diva. Oh, I remember that. That’s that’s Three things I’ve never done before in the space of an evening. And at the end of it, I’ve got a freelance job as well.
Gary Russell [00:37:52]:
Cha ching. I’m in there. So, you know, that that’s the way these things go. And, yes, is a brilliant tool. I absolutely love it. So, yeah, that’s, that’s how that came about. And then so I freelanced for years years years Maybe 10 years, I suppose. No.
Gary Russell [00:38:11]:
It’s not that long. So I started with Alan in 83, and I was freelancing all that time. And then in 1991, I was, again, completely out of the blue. I was delivering some freelance work to John Freeman, who was the at that point. And he said to me I could I could embellish this because this is true and say, actually, this was on an airplane. I was flying on an airplane with John to Scotland from England. That seems slightly wasteful to me, but there you go. And I had something, and I gave it to him on the plane and said, oh, by the way, that’s my latest review column or something.
Gary Russell [00:38:48]:
And he said, look. There’s gonna be some changes at Marvel Quite soon, would you ever be interested in coming on board full time and actually working on the magazine? And I think I’d been freelance about 2 years at that point, so money was drying up. And my other half, I know, we kept saying, you need to get a job. You need to get a job. So I said to John, yeah. That would be quite Well, that was April, April 91. Finally, in November 1991, he phoned up and went, right. Okay.
Gary Russell [00:39:17]:
We’re we’re we’re we’re ready for this now. Can you do you want this job? Do you want to start? And I said, what is the job? And he said, well, it’s mine. I’ll stick with you for a couple of months, but you take over actually editing Doctor Who Magazine. And I’m thinking, I’ve been writing for this magazine for 8 years. I used to edit my own fanzine, which is slightly different from a professional magazine, I will say, other than that, I have absolutely no idea how you put together a 42 page professional magazine every month. Of course, I said yes. And quite brilliantly, I went for some reason that I’ve never understood, I started on a Thursday. Didn’t start on Monday like the normal people would.
Gary Russell [00:40:05]:
For whatever the reason’s going on at Marvel at the time, they needed me to start on a Thursday. I I think maybe some of the people I’d replaced didn’t leave until Wednesday night. So I saw him on Thursday morning, and John Took me around the building and showed me everything. He was a very good teacher. Very, very he really knew how to impart information without Flooding my brain with too much of it, but giving me what I needed. Very good. Very clever, man. And that was fine.
Gary Russell [00:40:33]:
That was the 1st day. And then on the 2nd day, It is a Friday. We’re sitting there at 4 o’clock in the afternoon on the Friday. He says to me, right. So we’ve got to finish off doctor magazine issue 183 and Start 184. And I went, okay. That’s that sounds cool. Yeah.
Gary Russell [00:40:48]:
All this stuff seems to be coming in, and it all seems to be there for 183. And There’s a bit for 184. Yeah. That sounds good, John. He said, good. I’m glad you think that. I’m flying to America for 2 weeks tomorrow, so you now know everyone in the building. Good luck.
Gary Russell [00:41:02]:
And he disappeared and went on an airplane to go to Visions in Chicago and stay there. And I’m Sitting there at about 6 o’clock on that Friday night after we’d gone home, and we had a big we were in a big room with about 10 other people from other magazines. And I just sat there looking at them all, and they were looking at me in a kind of Did he really just go on a plane to America and you’ve been here less than 48 hours and tell You’ve gotta put a magazine together, and I was like, yeah. So Monday’s gonna be fun, and I went in Monday morning. And that’s really That’s the point, I think, where I learned to go, I don’t know what I’m doing. And I literally went to the designer, and I went to the marketing people, And I went to various other people in this building and said, right. I’ve got to get this magazine done and off to the printers by Wednesday. I’ve got all the bits.
Gary Russell [00:41:53]:
Can you tell me what I need to do to make that happen? And they were all brilliant. They said, do this. Nobody actually showed me all the data for me, which is what I’m kinda hoping. But they all kind of chipped in and said, oh, you need to do this. Then that person could do that, and that person will then be able to do that part of the job, and then that film will come out. Because this is you know, there’s no computers. It’s not DTP. This is physical magazines cutting up things with scalpels, gluing them down, sending off these massive, great, big a 3 sheets of cardboard with with stuff glued on them all up to a printer who was somewhere else in London and would send a bike to pick things up And then return them later that afternoon as 4 sheets of film, which had to be then checked and held up to the light, make sure the CMYK all match and all of this stuff.
Gary Russell [00:42:38]:
All this stuff that I didn’t know on the previous Thursday, by Monday, was sinking into me and going, this is great extro And utterly terrifying. But I got issue 183 of doctor magazine app to the printers, and it came back. And John came back from America, and he looked Well done. Very good. I’ve now got a new job upstairs in another department. Off you go. And he sort of kept his sort of fatherly eye over me for the next couple of months, really, and would occasionally come down and go, listen. I’ve just been talking to the designer.
Gary Russell [00:43:12]:
I’ve just been talking to the people production team or whatever. You know? You’ve you’ve got to do this, And that’s kind of important to this month, and I was like, oh, yes. They’re called barcodes, aren’t they? They are quite of important, and things like that. But, you know, brilliant baptism of fire. Best thing he could’ve done. So, yes, that’s how I got into Marvel UK, and and I stayed there. I only stayed there for about 3 years in total Before they knew management came in and decided that everyone who’d worked in the building for more than 2 years needs to be got rid of on a Wednesday morning, which is what they did, and we all went bye bye. But that was it was a fun through I tell you, and I’m not going to upset anyone else because I’ve said this to their faces enough times.
Gary Russell [00:43:54]:
I’ve had lots of brilliant jobs in my life, really have. Lots of brilliant jobs. But Doctor Who Magazine working from Harvard UK in the early nineties Was the most fun I’ve ever had in my entire life. It was just brilliant. It was wonderful. Good fun. It was so creative. So many interesting people.
Gary Russell [00:44:12]:
Lots of frustrating people, but it was lovely. It was really lovely, and I enjoyed every minute of it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:18]:
So How much did you get to indulge your fan side versus having to actually, you know, keep everything rolling in in a job like that.
Gary Russell [00:44:29]:
That’s interesting. I don’t know because I’m not quite sure where one ends and the other begins because you have to for for that specific job, The worst thing you can ever do is an appointor it’s not the worst thing you can do, actually, because there have been many of them. At that point, when there was no series on air, which is when I took over. You had to have a fan doing DOX HE magazine. There’d be no point in in having someone who didn’t know the series backwards Because with no current television show, you just sit there and go, I haven’t got a clue what I’m gonna fill these pages with. I got, by this point, 15 years of fandom behind me. I knew all the writers, all the artists. The comic strip was taking care of itself.
Gary Russell [00:45:16]:
So That that was the fan side of me indulging was giving people work and saying, you know how I used to write for my fan team. Well, now you can do it, And I can give you’ve give me an invoice, and and I do this thing called paying you to ride this ship. And they’re like, oh, I like that idea. And then at the end of every month, I got paid as well, which is kind of weird. But the the the there is no dividing line, I think. I think I just was a fan who and and I think this is true. I would say this is true right up to this very day. I’m a Doctor Who fan who has been exceptionally lucky, to get paid to be a Doctor Who fan.
Gary Russell [00:45:55]:
I mean, that’s the you know, my my passport says that I’m a writer producer. Well, actually, it doesn’t because they don’t do that anymore. But last time I had a passport that Required you to put your job. It said writer producer. Actually, what I should have put is professional doctor Who fan because that’s what I’ve been for the last, you know, 50 years, really, I’m very lucky and spoiled because of it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:16]:
Yeah. That’s that’s part of what fascinates me about you is that you’ve been able to to make that work.
Gary Russell [00:46:23]:
Yeah. But I think, again, it’s because lots of people over the years extro Have said little things to me, little throwaway things, that have actually been my core philosophy, if you like. I always remember when I was edit when I was writing for doctor magazine very early on, I did a review. That’s one of the very first things I did for DocuMagin was a review of Warriors of the Deep, in which I basically slated it and said it was a pilot ship. And when it was published, There was 1 line in it, which I remember so clearly, where I’d written, by no stretch of the imagination, Could you could anyone possibly call Warriors of the Deep a good story? And John Nathan Turner had blue pen that, so what was printed was Warriors of the deep is a good story. Oh. And I was thinking, that is exactly the opposite of what I and I remember saying to Alan Mackenzie the other day, I didn’t get it. You you’ve allowed him to make that change.
Gary Russell [00:47:34]:
And, oh, okay. He’s a producer, and if he doesn’t wanna be criticized, well, We find different ways of doing it. And Alan said to me he said, no. I totally support what John did there. He said, because this is not a fanzine. This is a professional magazine. People are going into their news agent, WA Smith, every single week and paying 40 p for doctor who monthly, which at that time was a lot of money. The last thing they wanna do is go home, read a magazine, and be told they’re complete idiots suspending 40 p on a magazine about doctor who because doctor who’s crap.
Gary Russell [00:48:05]:
So that’s not how we sell magazines. And that little lesson very early on, the freelancing for DWM, taught me and gave me a philosophy completely that it doesn’t matter if you don’t think something is very good. People are paying money to buy your magazine, and they’re not going to keep paying money month in, month out If every time they open the magazine, they’re told they’re idiots because, frankly, the thing they’re spending the money on and watching TV, the guys in the official magazine think it’s rubbish. So it was always my philosophy on DWM is that I tried. It was different with things like books and things like that and and videos of old stories and things. Anything that was vaguely current, anything that was vaguely new and exciting, which luckily, as I say, there was no TV show for me, so I didn’t have too much of a problem with that. But my philosophy was always upbeat and positive upbeat and positive. If you’re gonna find a negative, you equate it with 2 positives.
Gary Russell [00:49:01]:
I just don’t want negative, negative, negative. You want, This is shit, but this is brilliant, and this is even more brilliant. And that was what I used to say to writers and things, and that’s been a philosophy I’ve generally held on to In everything I’ve ever done, including my own writing, I always huff that in the back of my head is nobody wants you to be smug and clever and and and think you’re being arch and funny When, actually, what you’re doing is implying to them they’re a bit stupid for liking something that you that the professionals say isn’t. So that’s kind of I I kept that with me certainly all through my years on Doctor Who Magazine, but I’ve kept that with me forever, really.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:37]:
And that’s that’s I
Gary Russell [00:49:38]:
don’t think that answered your question in any way, shape, or form, and I’m not quite sure how I got into rambling on about that. Okay. I ramble. I’m sorry.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:48]:
That’s okay. Because it’s it’s an interesting thing, especially For for people who aren’t necessarily doctor WHO fans who might be listening to this, Warriors of the Deep is a story that is overwhelmingly derided as one of the worst ever. And and it’s it’s one that that I sometimes wonder about. You know? Like, if if the production had been better, would we think of it as a better story?
Gary Russell [00:50:14]:
Extraordinary. I mean, obviously, we would, because it’s actually the heart of it’s got quite a good script. It’s just very badly made and and and slightly pointless. But I think, you know, I’ve worked in I’ve worked Professionally on things for Star Trek. I’ve written about Star Trek, and I’ve written about Star Wars, and I’ve written about countless other TV shows, and that same philosophy has always stuck with me of If you’re going to be say something negative, say some say 2 positives in the same breath Mhmm. But really and truly, try not to be negative. Try and be constructive Because whatever you’re writing about, somebody, somewhere, there’s 2 things gonna come out. 1, somebody, somewhere likes it Even if you don’t, and they don’t wanna be told they’re idiots for liking it.
Gary Russell [00:50:55]:
And, also, this issue of Doctor Who Magazine or whatever it is your your work is in It’s the first one for someone, and you want them to come back next month. And if they think, oh my god. I picked up this great magazine. Oh, they don’t like that. Oh, they don’t like that. Oh, well, They throw it on the floor and then buy another one. Everything is somebody’s entry level, so the last thing you wanna do is is put them off in the 1st breath. And that’s my philosophy of and I know lots of other editors, including other editors of Doctor Who Magazine, who absolutely don’t agree with that philosophy I think it’s perfectly fine to snag everything off, but I it’s not me.
Gary Russell [00:51:33]:
I I can’t do that. And I think you can do it in fanzines, but you don’t do it when people are going into Deborah H. Smiths and buying things on a newsstand. Because there’s a difference between a couple of 100 people buying a fanzine who know what they’re getting And 25,000 people who who, if they don’t keep buying it month after month, you lose your job and the company goes out of business, which you don’t really have with a fan Nobody goes out of business with a fancy. So, you know, there there’s a lot of important things to bear in mind.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:02]:
Well and in the age of the Internet And back when you were there, it was Usenet for those who even knew that that existed. These days, it’s Reddit or Twitter. You know, you you can find all of the negativity really easily online.
Gary Russell [00:52:17]:
Yes. Yes. And I have done my level best, and I have not always succeeded, I’ve done my level best on social media. I don’t ever be hypercritical of particularly doctor who, particularly modern doctor who. Partly because, also, I know a lot of people involved in it, and I just think it’s rude to go on social media and and say, I think that episode of doctor who that you made is utter shit. So I just don’t I don’t bother coming. I’m quite negative about lots of other things, particularly politicians, but, you know, I don’t know them, and I don’t work for them. But, yeah, I just think I think we have a a responsibility when you’re put in a position of editorial power, if you like.
Gary Russell [00:53:00]:
I think you have a responsibility to your readers and to the people paying your salary To find a happy balance that keeps everybody happy.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:11]:
Yeah. I mean, I don’t I don’t think that you wanna sugarcoat things necessarily, but, you know, finding that balance Well,
Gary Russell [00:53:22]:
I used to say to people that working for me that it’s very easy to write a negative review of something, And it takes work to write a positive review. If if I ask someone to give me 3,000 words on something And and they wanna write 3,000 negative words they can knock for that in half an hour because it’s dead easy. Mhmm. If I turn around and say, no. I want it positive. That’s gonna take him 4 days Because it’s hard work to be positive. It’s hard work to to only see the good in something. Well, I think they should work hard and, you know, if I’ve given them 3,000 words, they complain it’ll take 4 days to do it and and give me something positive.
Gary Russell [00:54:00]:
There’ll still be negativity in there because that’s inevitable, But they’ll have balanced it. They’ll have written something balanced and intelligent rather than something that looks like it came out of a fanzine in 1982.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:13]:
Yeah. When you write it in 5 minutes, it’s it’s never gonna be balanced, and it’s
Gary Russell [00:54:19]:
No.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:20]:
It’s not fun to read the thing that somebody, the negative thing that somebody wrote on continents.
Gary Russell [00:54:24]:
That’s right. You feel dirty almost. You’re kinda like, oh, why are you saying that? Oh, that’s not necessary. Sort of. And and because I’ve been around for, you know, a 150 years now, and I’ve worked with millions of totally different people, I have seen and, you know, Before social media, before the Internet, really, it’s slightly different because you’ve got time to digest and think about what you write, and, also, as a reader, you’ve got Time to digest and think about what you’ve read. When the Internet comes along, and particularly, you know, back in 2006, 7 when Facebook and Twitter first burst into life, The in the immediacy of that offensiveness. You I just saw the effect it had on people who hadn’t been around and dealing with fandom and things for as long as I had, who were absolutely destroyed by it. And you turn around and go, look.
Gary Russell [00:55:19]:
Here’s 40 positive comments. And they go, yeah, but there’s that one that’s really spiteful, I mean, and horrible, and that’s the one I’m remembering. And you’re like, do you not understand that those 40 comments represent The majority, they represent the the the median, and that is one sad little nobody sat in their mom’s basement being a complete tussle because they can. But, no, that’s what you focus in on. That’s what you remember. Mhmm. And I had that when my you know, when I first started writing books, I had that all the time. And I found my way to get over this was very briefly for about I only did for about 4 or 5 years, if that even.
Gary Russell [00:55:56]:
I had a website. I had my own website, Which was all about promoting the books I was doing and everything else. But the only thing I ever put on it were the were reviews of my books, But they were all the negative reviews. I sought out every negative and spiteful and bitchy reviewer, and they were the ones I stuck on my website. I didn’t put any positive ones on there at all. And that was how I got used to being completely inured to the idea of negative criticism. Can you just look at it and go It’s just a handful of people, but that book still sold all those copies, and and the publishers come out and ask me for a second book. So my guess is that those 6 people who wrote those reviews are probably wrong or not wrong.
Gary Russell [00:56:36]:
They’re not wrong, but they’re in a minority, and, actually, the silent majority were obviously quite happy And that’s how I get over. And and I’ve as I’ve said about, I’ve never really been upset by criticism, and I never react to it. The only time I will ever react to anything, I did this particularly when I was at Big Finish, and the Internet was quite a obsessed bit even then. I would always come in on a conversation if someone was slagging something off, but only if they were being factually inaccurate. Mhmm. If they were saying something about an actor or a writer, and I go, no. Actually, that’s not what happened. I didn’t actually ever interfere and say, I don’t to agree with your opinion or it’s a shame you think that or you’re wrong to think that.
Gary Russell [00:57:17]:
I would just go in and say, actually, that’s not how that happened. It was this. So you’re not interfering with their opinion. People saw it as that way, but it wasn’t. All I ever did was go, I want to be make sure you’re factually accurate. You can slang that off as much as you like, But you can only slag it off if you actually know the facts. Don’t don’t make things up. And that’s always been my philosophy right up to date.
Gary Russell [00:57:41]:
I only get involved in things when people are actually accurate and somebody is being denigrated for something they probably didn’t do.
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:49]:
Yeah. You’ll never win in a battle over someone’s opinion.
Gary Russell [00:57:52]:
And you’ll never win in a battle on the Internet either. I mean, the No. You know, it’s just impossible because Because you can’t. So you just go, doesn’t matter. Yep. When when when someone turns around to you and says, right. I’m sorry, Gary. We’re going to have to let you go because everything you have done has killed the sales of this, this, and this, and the company’s on bankruptcy because of you.
Gary Russell [00:58:15]:
Then I might go, maybe those people on the Internet are right. That has never happened, and it’s never likely to happen to anyone in the entire world because of something that’s been said on the it’s very easy to just go let people be negative. Let them have their moment tapping away in their parents’ basement, because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter. There’s a lot wrong in this life at the moment, and and somebody’s views about a doctor who book or a doctor who comic or anything else, You know, it doesn’t matter. It’s not worth getting upset by particularly by the professionals making that stuff because, you know, It could be worse than Donald Trump could rule the world, and then we really would be screwed. So let’s worry about the things that matter and not worry about Whether or not the latest doctor who toy has got the wrong paint color on it. Amen to that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:59:08]:
So I would love to talk about Big Finish and how Big Finish happened and whatever Well comes
Gary Russell [00:59:16]:
from happens. Gosh. Big finish hap so so I’ll do this very briefly because I’ve done this before, and it goes 10 hours. So back in the mid eighties, myself and a guy called Bill Baggs set up a company, a fan company. Rather than do a fanzine, We thought let’s do audio drama instead, so we set up a thing called audio visuals. Through that, Bill introduced me to Nick Briggs. We did audio visuals for about 5, 6 years, and then in 1991, it stopped. Right? We all loved audio drama.
Gary Russell [00:59:48]:
We thought that exciting to do, and it’s very new and quite different thing to do in fandom. I had always wanted to carry on doing audio drama. I love it, And I knew Nick did as well. So, randomly, I had just done the TV movie novelization for BBC Books. I had some insight as to what was going on at the BBC with the McGahn movie and and all their plans if it went series. So I said to my friend Jason, You’re rich. I enjoy spending your money. Give me all your money.
Gary Russell [01:00:23]:
We should set up a company and make Doctor Who audio professionally. We should go to the BBC to do what we used to do with audiovisuals all those years ago and do it properly. And Jason said, that’s a great idea. Here’s all my money. Let’s let you you arrange a meeting, and we’ll go along. And we’ll tell these people that they should give us all their licenses, and we’ll make them lots of money making doctor audios. And that’s exactly what happened. We went to the BBC, and we met these 3 lovely ladies who were in charge of licensing audio.
Gary Russell [01:00:55]:
And we went in and had a lovely meeting with them, and we explained what we wanted to do. And at the end of the meeting, they looked at us and said, you know what? It’s a great idea, but We want to keep everything in house. Doctor Who’s gonna be huge in America now with Paul McGannan. It’s all gonna be fantastic. So, no, we’re not handing out any Doctor Who licenses. Bye bye. So we left that meeting, and they went, oh, alright. That’s the end of that idea then.
Gary Russell [01:01:17]:
And then suddenly walking away. I said to Jason, but I still want to spend all your money Because it just seems a natural thing for me to spend your money. I don’t spend any of mine. I just wanna spend your money. And I said, why don’t we do something else? And I thought, let’s go to Virgin Books and say, can we license Bernice Summerfield, who was quite popular? By that point, she was in her own range of books. She wasn’t part of the doctor who arranged anymore because the doctor who arranged had come back to the BBC. And so we did. We were I went to Virgin, and I said, look.
Gary Russell [01:01:49]:
Can we license this? And they said, well, you need Paul Cornell’s permission because he created Bernice. So I went to Paul Cornell and said, can we do this? And he said, we need Virgin’s permission because they published the books. And I was like, this is going very well. So I I sort of Soon in the middle of the 2 of them and went, you’re happy, you’re happy, I’m happy. Went to Jason and said, everyone’s happy. Let’s get some bits of paper signed, which Virgin and Paul signed. Bang. We went off and did Bernie Summerfield audios.
Gary Russell [01:02:16]:
Cut to a year later, we’ve released 2 or 3 of these Bernie’s audios. Phone rings, And it’s the BBC, Steve Cole, actually, at that point, BBC, saying, right. BBC Audio need to talk to you. They’ve heard some of your Bernie Summerfield stuff, and they want to talk to you, to which I immediately went, oh my god. What have we done wrong? We’ve used a sound effect. We’ve done something illegal. And Jason’s going, just chill, and I’m going, ah, this might stop me spending all your money. So we went into this meeting with the same 3 ladies that we’d seen the year before.
Gary Russell [01:02:50]:
But, of course, by this point, everyone the TV movie hadn’t relit the world. And these lovely ladies sat down and said, we’ve heard your Bernie Summerfield stuff. It’s very good. We had a brilliant idea. We think someone should do doctor who audio dramas. And I’m thinking you’re the same 3 ladies that we brought this out to. And I was about to go, it’s our idea, actually. Do you remember? And Jason was, like, Under a table, gripping my knee tight and trying to break my kneecap off to shut me up.
Gary Russell [01:03:21]:
And he was saying, that’s a fascinating idea. Wow. You’re right. That’s a very clever idea. Well, we like these things. Would you like a license to legitimately do Doctor Who? And I was like, good. We confuse and Jason’s like, shut up. Yes.
Gary Russell [01:03:35]:
Yes. That’s a very we’d love that license. I mean, bang. They said, off you go and make doctor you on audio. And and Jason, bless him, because I was spending his money by that point like water, wanted this mythical license from the BBC and kept saying, can we actually have this in writing, please? Because we can’t do anything Unless we’ve got it in writing, I can’t invest money in setting up a company. And the BBC are like, it’ll come. Don’t worry. We’re not gonna stop you.
Gary Russell [01:04:04]:
There’s the records of all of these meetings. You’re absolutely fine. And I’m like, oh, Jason, they’re absolutely fine. Let’s go make doctor who. And he was like, I kind would like something with a signature on the bottom of a piece of paper, actually. Anyway, we made the first 3 Doctor Who audios without ever having a license from the BBC. You know, we’ve had we got their approvals of the script. We the approvals of the covers, all of that went through all the correct sources.
Gary Russell [01:04:28]:
We just didn’t actually have an official license that told us we were allowed to do this. And then one day, it turned up, and Jackson was happy. And I was like, yeah. Well, you know, we made 3 of the bloody things right now, so you should be happy. And that was the finish set up, and off we went. And and it was just because we had proven to the BBC that we knew what we’re doing, and we could do this. And we could frankly do it better than they could do it internally. And here we are 25 years later, which is terrifying, nothing to do with me, and I only was there for the 1st 8 years of it.
Gary Russell [01:05:00]:
But, you know, it’s still going. It’s this massive monolithic company that is that is Not just Doctor Who, but he’s making so much quality product. And I’m very proud of the fact that there I was at the beginning of it starting it off. And and, you know, my on on the timeline of of the history of Big Finish, I take up, you know, a millimeter Next to Nick Briggs’ you know, 6 and a half meters. But I was there at the beginning, and I created it. And I set it up, and I ran it editorially for the 1st 8 years, and I’m very happy with with everything we did there. I’m not gonna say every single play was a work of art, But I would say that 95% were.
Nancy Norbeck [01:05:41]:
I mean, you
Gary Russell [01:05:42]:
know The 5 the 5% that were not works of art were utter shit. Well, you know, that’s half the fun of it, really, isn’t it? And I can say that. No one else can. If anyone else says that shit, I’ll go, no. I’m sorry. That’s just not right. That’s not it’s not fair. But, you know, I like to look at them and go, Christ.
Gary Russell [01:05:55]:
How the hell do we let why on earth did I let that one go out? But it was the most It was the most fun. And, again, like I’ve been when I was running Doctor Who magazine, what it gave me was the opportunity to say to people I’d known in fandom, Come and do something, and you get paid for it. And best of all, like I said, to actors. These actors I’ve met at years of conventions and things and be able to say to them, Come and do this. By the way, we’re actually gonna put money in your pocket at the end of it. And the great thing about Jason, which is why actors loved us apart from the food, Was that Jason would turn up at the end of the day of every single recording with a checkbook? So every actor went home from from their 1st or 2nd day of recording Big Finish with a check-in their hand. No actor in the world has ever encountered this before. Their agents were completely flummoxed.
Gary Russell [01:06:42]:
They were like, you you you’ve paid us. Like, yeah. I mean, sometimes we’d even give checks. If it went through an agent, we’d sometimes do the check before they actually turned up in the studio in the vague hope they would actually turn up. And agents and actors didn’t know how to deal with this because they’d never encountered this this payment system before. It was brilliant for us because word-of-mouth gets out. Everybody wants to come and work for Big Finish because not only do you get paid on time, you get a good lunch, and it’s bloody good fun. So we did very well.
Nancy Norbeck [01:07:10]:
Well, that was what I was wondering, you know, when you’re just starting out like that, did you have trouble getting people to believe that, you know, I’m sorry. You want me to come do what? Like, for real?
Gary Russell [01:07:20]:
Yeah. I mean, there were people that turned us down, not not doctor who people. Well, there were certain actors that that we went to. And now this is a collective we. It’s not just me. This is Various different directors of things. We would go to certain actors. Not very many.
Gary Russell [01:07:34]:
I will say this. And they explained what Big Finish was and what we were doing, and the response would come back as, Yeah. They don’t get out of bed for that kind of money. You know? So that’s not gonna happen. But that was sort of peep count that on the fingers of 1 hand, really, back in those days. Most people bought into it, and I think it was because the first 3 people to buy into it were Colin, Sylvester, and Peter. And, therefore, the moment you had them Right. You automatically had Sophie and Nicola and and, Sarah Sutton, and and all of those people were there, and then that gave us the confidence to create a couple of new companions for people, and then Then gradually more and more.
Gary Russell [01:08:15]:
I remember, you know, I said to Jason at the very beginning, my 3 things I wanted to do with Big Finish was Paul McGann, Bonnie Langford, and Janet Fielding. By the time I left, just with with a few weeks to spare, I finally got Janet Fielding involved, And we got Paul and Bonnie, you know, very early on. Mhmm. And it was just it was just fun. Oh my god. Big Finish was fun. It was fun for me. It was fun for all the actors, I think, all the writers and producers.
Gary Russell [01:08:44]:
Probably less fun for the sound designers for whom I used to say, yeah. They’re 4:25 minutes, and they’d come around to me and go, no. This is 4:45 minutes, but you’re only paying us for 4:25 minutes. It’s audio. It’s, You know, we’re not constrained by what’s on television. We can make it the story run its natural length, and they go, no. No. No.
Gary Russell [01:09:03]:
No. We are we this is killing us. You know? You’re actually making 8 part stories, not 4 part stories. And after a while, I’d go, Oh, I kinda see where you’re getting at then. Yeah. Alright then. They’re still gonna be about 35 minutes each. You know? That was the compromise.
Gary Russell [01:09:19]:
I thought it was a compromise. I think they just all hated me. But everyone generally had an awful lot of fun. And, yes, and actors, bless them, as an industry talk. That’s the great thing is that I never had to scrabble around because I directed the majority of the stories that I produced, And I don’t remember really having to scrabble too hard to find people because I could either go to agents, and the word had got back to agents that we were good and responsible and treated and act as well. Or more often than not, I’d suddenly get a letter with a sometimes with a tape. Sometimes they didn’t need to do a tape going, oh, my mate, such and such, just did one of your big finishes if ever you want me. And I really love to do that, and I’m talking about people that you who names that you knew from TV and stage thinking, oh my god.
Gary Russell [01:10:04]:
That person, a, I didn’t realize they knew that person who isn’t famous, but more importantly, They they’re going on saying this is really great fun. I remember very clearly. A a very good friend of mine, Toby Longworth, who’d done quite a lot of Big Finish first at that point, saying to me one day, I’m working with this guy at the National Theatre, and I’ve been telling him what I’m doing. And he’s a massive fan of Big Finish, And he wants to come and do one of your plays. And I said, oh, okay. Tell me about it. He said I was he was sort of Early twenties, Scottish, and and he’s a massive Doctor Who fan. And I went, oh, and he said his name’s David Tennant.
Gary Russell [01:10:47]:
And I went, oh, I know him Because I’ve seen him on a couple of things on TV. He’s very good actor. Yeah. Let’s get him in. And and so this man called David Tennant came and did some big finishes for us and then Slow me down a few years later. Oh, look who’s playing doctor who. Yeah. But, of course, you also make mistakes.
Gary Russell [01:11:04]:
So Wendy Padbury, Zoe in Doctor Who, was also an a was an agent by that point. She was an agent, and she I used a lot of her people, And she would send me, every so often, tapes of her new young clients. And there was 1 I turned down, because I didn’t think it was frank, who years later, I found myself staring at while at work one day at BBC Wells going, oh, so you’re the doctor who’s taking over from David Tennant. And my brain went, Matt Smith. And I went through all my links and things, and I went, yeah. Yeah. You’re the guy I said to Wendy Pabry, no. I don’t think he’s very good actor, and I don’t wanna work with him.
Gary Russell [01:11:44]:
And so I had the chance to work with Matt Smith at before he was famous and said no. So that says how stupid I am. But, you know, Big Finish is great. It was brilliant. And and to this day, Nick Briggs and the rest of them are all still spending Jason’s money. It’s fantastic. I don’t think Jason thinks that, but, you know, he always regrets he always gets annoyed at me when I talk about how I went around spending his money because, obviously, I didn’t really extro money at all. He had to put a little bit of money up at the beginning, but actually Big Finish kind of offered itself pretty quickly Because we were doing things sensibly.
Gary Russell [01:12:19]:
We weren’t splashing out. We weren’t overpaying. We we cut corners on an awful lot of things. So the the company Didn’t take that long before it started roughly paying for itself. Certainly, by the time we were into sort of year 3 or 4, We were reasonably comfortable that I wasn’t dipping into Jason’s pocket anymore. And it wasn’t in Jason’s pocket. It just he has a variety of different companies, and he used the money from that to fund us at the beginning. Mhmm.
Gary Russell [01:12:46]:
But I like to say I spent Jason’s money because it amuses me.
Nancy Norbeck [01:12:51]:
I mean, why not?
Gary Russell [01:12:52]:
When I see his face when I say it.
Nancy Norbeck [01:12:58]:
Why not?
Gary Russell [01:13:00]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I ain’t got the money. Jason, you’re a businessman. You’ve got good businesses. You’re a very smart businessman. You’re an intelligent businessman. You know what you’re doing.
Gary Russell [01:13:08]:
Give me money, and he did. And it was the same when I went to Australia because Australia, the animation company out in Australia, I didn’t even know this when I got the job out there. It was Jason’s company. So I found myself in Australia after, you know, 6 years after or 7 years after I left Big Finish, Sitting down and going, oh, I’m spending Jason’s money again. This is excellent. I can phone him up and say, Jason, I need another 23 computers because You I didn’t eat them at all, but, you know, you’re just depending on what they are. This is very, very important. I need you to spend give me a load of money so I can go and buy computers.
Gary Russell [01:13:42]:
And bless him. He said, like, well, you need to put this in a plan. You need to write this down. I that sounds like an awful lot. And I’m thinking, I’m winding you up, you idiot. But I never said that. I just kept going with the joke and and and make him think, yeah, I needed 23 computers out of him because it was funny. To imagine at the end of a phone his little face all scrunched up thinking, why is Gary spending money? But it’s my hobby.
Gary Russell [01:14:08]:
My work is Docs Who. My hobby is is trying to bankrupt Jason Nagelery. It’s a great hobby, and I’ve been doing it now for years.
Nancy Norbeck [01:14:15]:
Hey. If it if it works and you have that kind of relationship where you can do that Yeah. It just makes it that much more fun.
Gary Russell [01:14:21]:
Yeah. I think so. He probably wouldn’t agree, but I think so.
Nancy Norbeck [01:14:28]:
So you went from Big Finish To the BBC.
Gary Russell [01:14:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was weird, I can tell you. That was unexpected. I was doing a book for for BBC Books It’s called doctor who, the inside story, and so I was coming up to Cardiff all the time and interviewing people. And at the end of Most of the interviews, I then went to Russell and said, right now, I want to interview you because I’ve interviewed everyone else. So I’ve got everyone’s stories and ideas, and I want you to tell me Whether they’re right or wrong, and whether they’ve misinterpreted and and what you think about this this and that.
Gary Russell [01:15:08]:
And we’re we’re just lovely sort of 6 hours up in Manchester, in the house in Manchester.
Nancy Norbeck [01:15:12]:
And this was Russell t Davis who was in charge Russell t. At the time. Yep. Yes.
Gary Russell [01:15:16]:
That’s right. And, he just casually said to me, you know, How much longer are you gonna stay at Big Finish? You know, saying this to me whilst behind him on the shelves behind him is every single Big Finish that’s ever been made because he’s Huge fan. He was lovely because when the show came back, I was really worried that this is gonna kill big finish, And he phoned me, and and he phoned me at 1 Friday night out of the blue and just said, right. Just to let you know, in about 10 minutes on the 9 o’clock news, It’s going to be announced that I’m bringing doctor Hu back, and I just want you to know that you don’t need to worry. No one’s gonna try and shut big finish down. I’m just telling you that with conversations being had, you’re absolutely fine. I was thinking if you put doctor Hugh back on television, no one’s gonna need Big Finish. You know? Luckily, that I was wrong, and and he was right.
Gary Russell [01:16:07]:
But I’ve always I’ve known Russell for for about I think I met Russell for the first time in Year 2000, so I’ve known him. So it was nice to be able to chat. And then yeah. So he said to me while I was interviewing him, and I said, Quite happy at Big Finish, but I can’t see it’s 8 years. I can’t see myself being there forever. It’s the longest job I’d ever had in my life. The joy of it was it was effectively still freelance, so I could go off and do other things if I needed to as long as everything got done. But, Creatively, I was beginning to get tired.
Gary Russell [01:16:37]:
I was getting exhausted. It was a 1 man band, really. Me and and my friend, Ian, sat in an office, basically, putting out these things. Whereas nowadays, they’ve got an army of 650, but, you know, it was just the 2 of us then. And I was tired, and I was exhausted. And I said to Russell, what I’d always wanted to do, really, was be a script editor as well as turn on sticks or Eric Saver, you know, and and do what they did on TV, Which isn’t how television works these days. A script editor has absolutely no control over things like that whatsoever, but that’s how they did it in the seventies. Anyway, the next time I’m up in Cardiff and I was interviewing some somebody random, a man I’d never met before suddenly called me into his And said, oh, my name is Matthew, and I’m ahead of, some not head of drama, but he was sort of Responsible for looking for new things for the drama department to do.
Gary Russell [01:17:26]:
I can’t remember what the title is, which is embarrassing. And and he was just checking to me, and and he said, you know, about Big Financially, you’ve been doing the book with Russell, and you wanted to be a script editor. And he told me all the things that script editors did these days of and what they did in the seventies and eighties, and I’m taking all this in. And he said, yeah. So, when do you wanna start? I’m sorry. Was this a job interview? And he said, well, it wasn’t at the beginning. It’s kinda turned into 1, hasn’t it? And Russell and Judy really want you. And they asked me to sound you out.
Gary Russell [01:17:59]:
I was like, oh, okay. When can I start? Well, I knew so, anyway, that happened, and then I I think he said go away and think about it. Well, before I got The door of the office I already had thought about, and I kinda turned around and went, yes. Obviously. Why am I gonna say no? Of course, I’m saying yes. So that was on a Wednesday. On the Thursday, I was back in London, and I phoned Jason up. I said, I’ve got some news for you.
Gary Russell [01:18:27]:
And he went, it better not be bad news. I said, well, he said, look. I don’t care what it is so long as you’re not gonna tell me that Russell’s offered you a job on Doctor Who. No. Anyway, when do you start? I went Monday, This was Thursday, and that was fun. But luckily, what the BBC had said to me was that I would do, 3 days a week in Cardiff, and I could do 2 days a week, still for big finish, and and do a gradual handover, and finish all the projects I was doing for that that would take me about another 3 months, I think. And that was a really nice thing for them to do, actually. That that was really kind of the BBC to let me do So, yes, there was a big handover period between me and Briggsy.
Gary Russell [01:19:14]:
And then one day, I did my last ever production, for Big Finish as producer, and we sat there and went, oh, well, That’s that then. And then I was in Cardiff full time, and and I moved to Cardiff, and I bought a house in Cardiff, which is what I’m talking to you from and I fell in love with the city. And although I left the the BBC in the end in 2011, other than a very brief trip to Australia. I say brief. It was 3 years. But, you know, I’ve been in this house the whole time, and and, You know? I love it. I love Cardiff. I would never leave Cardiff.
Gary Russell [01:19:54]:
I think it’s the greatest city in the world. That’s cool. And it’s it’s a creative city. It’s a very artsy city. It suits me. Wales suits me because it’s a very left wing country. We’ve always had left wing governments here. I don’t think the conservatives ever run whales ever, or not since about the 18th century.
Gary Russell [01:20:17]:
So I quite like it here. It it just it suits my needs. It suits me. So, yeah, I shall probably stay here until I croak or until the storms one day knock this house down. We’ve got terrible weather here. Absolutely terrible. It’s one thing I miss about Australia. I actually miss lots of things about Australia, but the thing about Australia is it’s warm.
Gary Russell [01:20:37]:
Even when it was shooting with rain, it was warm in Australia. And and since I came back from there, I have noticed how cold the UK is, and it’s one thing that I can’t deal with anymore. I never had this problem before I went there. Now I find cold really like, I wanna die. So I resent that. Sent the cold very much. But, yeah, that’s that’s my life in a nutshell, really.
Nancy Norbeck [01:21:00]:
So what are you up to these days?
Gary Russell [01:21:02]:
Well, when I came back from Australia, very quickly, we were asked to do animating doctor who missing stories for BBC Studios, so we did Fury From the Deep and Galaxy 4, and then the bottom of Snowmen, and we all kind of decided, I did, but I specifically decided that that was enough. That was three and a half, nearly 4 years through COVID. Exceptionally bizarre circumstances trying to make these things work with a studio in India and a coproducer in Australia and a Coproducer in America and a postproduction team in Australia and Jason and I here in England. So it was 7 days a week, probably about, I don’t know. 8 hours a day trying to get all this stuff working. It was difficult. It was exhausting, and I did it for three and a half years. And at the end of it end of the.
Gary Russell [01:21:56]:
I’m literally dying on my feet here. So I brought that back, came to an end for me. The world has carried on doing animations, but not for not with Big Finish. And since then, I’ve just been doing little bits of freelance. It’s not been the world’s greatest year for me, actually. But that’s the freelance curse, isn’t it? You you have years where you’ve got plenty of work, and you have a year like I’ve had this year, which has been also was nonexistent with work. But that’s your choice of being a freelancer. If you’re going to be a freelancer, then you have to put up with the rough with the smooth.
Gary Russell [01:22:27]:
And I’ve had a very lucky 59 years of being a freelancer, so the 60th year has been a bit meh. Hopefully, 61st will be better. It doesn’t it’s that’s You have to have that philosophy. As a freelancer, if you sit down and really sit and examine how shit work is, You throw yourself off a bridge and go, that’s it. I’m never gonna work again. So I don’t think along those lines. I just take each day as it comes.
Nancy Norbeck [01:22:53]:
It is
Gary Russell [01:22:53]:
a bit like instead of being a 60 year old, I’m feeling at the moment, I’m a bit like a 16 year old
Nancy Norbeck [01:22:58]:
Mhmm.
Gary Russell [01:22:58]:
Sort of straddling around and and and, you know, living out of baked bean cans. But it’s kind of fun as well. It’s it’s that whole thing of nothing is ever the same. No no one day is the same as the next. And I think that’s very important. I think that keeps you alive. I I couldn’t I don’t know what I’d do If I’d been a normal person in a normal job looking here at 60 and thinking in 6 or 7 years, I have to retire and thinking, what do you do with retirement? And and, Jesus, that’s an an appalling thought. The idea that I would ever retire is is Anathem to me.
Gary Russell [01:23:37]:
You you just keep working. I’m like, okay. If you got a pension, which I have or will have, it’s nice because you maybe not have to worry quite so much about paying the mortgage every month because pension will go towards that. And You can pick and choose what you do more, but I I’ve always said to my I’ve had a financial adviser for a busy teen years, and I’ve always said to them, I can’t imagine I will ever actually stop working until I’m dead because I would be bored. I would be so bored. My my my biggest fear in life is being bored, and I had never been bored ever in in my life. Not even for 30 seconds have I ever been bored Because I have a house that’s full of DVDs and books and toys, other tragic things like that, and music. So if I’m sitting down and I have nothing to do, actually, I have plenty of things to amuse me and keep me busy.
Gary Russell [01:24:33]:
So, yeah, I I’ve never, I’ve never been bored. I’ve never been bored. I couldn’t be bored. I wouldn’t know how to be bored.
Nancy Norbeck [01:24:43]:
That’s fair. That’s actually really cool.
Gary Russell [01:24:47]:
Mad is what it is. I’m I do think I’m probably completely mad as well. But then, you know, I don’t be mad. Mad is good. Mad is great. I think You can’t get through the kind of you can’t be a creative, and I’ve never used the word creative, by the way, to describe myself until this very interview. But you you you can’t work in the media, I think, and be a 100% sane. I think, you know, you have to have a slight maybe a slight little edge of insanity and a little edge of risk Taking a little edge of danger, particularly on the freelance life because you’re basically willing to say, I’m gonna throw myself out of a plane without a parachute, which I’ve always said I would never do, but, actually, that’s what freelancing is like every single day.
Gary Russell [01:25:38]:
You wake up, And you’re standing on the edge of that airplane door, and the wind is rustling at you, and someone’s standing on the parachute going, you can take the parachute and be safe, Or you can jump out the plane and assume that the thing on your back will open up and take you down safely eventually. And I think every single day, you do actually do that drop, And you tug on the wire and hope, thank god it wasn’t the day that that’s my lunch, and it is actually a parachute. That’s a really tortured analogy, Gary. That’s Really quite awful. My god. Where did you change that one up from? Yeah. But you get the idea of what I’m saying.
Nancy Norbeck [01:26:15]:
Yeah.
Gary Russell [01:26:15]:
I hope. Possibly, maybe. 10,000 people are gonna write on me and say, Harry Potter was talking some shit about jumping out of an airplane, but he said earlier he didn’t wanna jump out of an airplane. What’s he on? Metaflores. I’ve never been good at metaflores.
Nancy Norbeck [01:26:34]:
That’s alright. I would ask what you thought you were gonna be doing next, but I know that that doesn’t really apply here. But if if anyone who’s listening wants to, you know, try doing the the freelance life. Do you have any advice?
Gary Russell [01:26:49]:
Do it. Without a shadow of a doubt, do it. Because when it’s good, it’s brilliant, and when it’s not good, it’s still brilliant. Because even if you haven’t got any money and you’re eating out of baked bean cans, You’re in control of your life. You are in control. You you you are 110th master of your own destiny, And that’s in this day and age, is is a phenomenal thing to do. The only person you’re answerable to is you in the mortgage. As long as you make enough money to cover the mortgage, you’re fine.
Gary Russell [01:27:24]:
He says famous afterwards. But, really, no. I in all seriousness, If someone’s thinking, could I could I freelance? I’d absolutely say, give it a go. You have nothing to lose because You’ll always find a job if it doesn’t work for you. You can always go back into into full time employment. There is stuff out there that you can do, but I think it’s worth the risk of being a freelancer and seeing if it works for you and seeing if you like it. Lots of people who are freelancers give it up, Not because there’s no work, but they actually don’t like the the freelance lifestyle of, you know, your your Taxes will have to be done at the end of the year, and you never know from one day to the next when you’re gonna get it paid, and all of the things that go with being freelance. But I think it’s all worth it, Because it’s it’s a fun way to live your life.
Gary Russell [01:28:12]:
I have no regrets. I there’s nothing in my life. There’s lots since I’ve done nothing I wish I hadn’t done that. But in terms of life regrets about the path that that it has taken me down, I don’t have regrets. I I’ve I’ve lived a brilliant life. If I got hit by a bus tomorrow, there isn’t anyone in the world that could ever say, oh, poor Gary. I never achieved x, y, or zed. I I’ve just been happy, and I just been freelance, taking jobs occasionally when I needed to.
Gary Russell [01:28:43]:
But even then, half of them were sort of semi freelance anyway. I it it’s just it’s been a lovely life. It’s been a lovely roller coaster of a life, and I’ve just been lucky. It’s it’s just been lucky. I’d love to tell you it’s because I’m skilled for really isn’t. It’s because I’m very, very lucky, and someone has gone, oh, you can do this, can’t you? And I’ve gone, yes. Sometimes I can, and sometimes I think, no, but I’ll give it a go. And that’s what it’s all about, taking risks, making living life as I say, we’re not here for very long, so you live it for what it’s worth.
Gary Russell [01:29:18]:
Fair enough. And drop out to that airplane without a parachute.
Nancy Norbeck [01:29:23]:
But not really. Don’t go
Gary Russell [01:29:24]:
so Not really.
Nancy Norbeck [01:29:25]:
On the ground.
Gary Russell [01:29:26]:
Absolutely not extro Believe me, I’m never doing that.
Nancy Norbeck [01:29:30]:
Otherwise, I think this is probably a good place to stop.
Gary Russell [01:29:34]:
Extro Has it been what you wanted?
Nancy Norbeck [01:29:36]:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s been great fun.
Gary Russell [01:29:39]:
Excellent. Thank you.
Nancy Norbeck [01:29:40]:
So well, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me
Gary Russell [01:29:44]:
Absolute pleasure. Really good fun.
Nancy Norbeck [01:29:47]:
That’s our show for this week. Thanks so much to Gary Russell and to you for listening. Please leave a review for this episode. There is a link right in your podcast app. And in it, tell us about a time when you took a leap of faith. If you enjoyed our conversation, I hope you’ll share it with a friend. Thank you so much. If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now, join me at the spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage.
Nancy Norbeck [01:30:21]:
It’s free, and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners. The link is in your podcast stop, so sign up today. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.