My guest this week is Rob Schwartz—journalist, music/film producer, entrepreneur, and son of the late Morrie Schwartz of Tuesdays with Morrie fame. Rob has founded a number of companies, both in Japan and the US, and has produced numerous film and music projects with international teams.
Rob and I talk about his experiences in Japan and India, and how travel enhances creativity, and the role of listening in language learning and the influence of language on thinking and behavior. Rob also tells me about The Wisdom of Morrie, his father’s last book, which encourage readers to challenge stereotypes and find fulfillment in later stages of life. I think you’ll enjoy my wide-ranging conversation with Rob Schwartz.
Episode breakdown:
[00:03:28] Moving to Japan requires commitment, effort, and learning the language.
[00:08:47] Japan: Disciplined, delicate society with polite etiquette. India: Wonder of world, diverse culturally and geographically.
[00:12:52] Key to learning language: listen, imitate directly.
[00:19:11] Different languages shape different worldviews and personalities.
[00:26:46] French invasion led to mingling of languages.
[00:32:58] Morrie’s book found after many years, gets published.
[00:40:20] “Fighting ageism and living a fulfilling life.”
[00:48:02] Psychoanalysis exists in many social milieus.
[00:51:40] Mother’s influence shaped Morrie’s writing and career.
[00:55:52] The irony of Morrie’s posthumous fame, and the joy of his legacy.
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Show links
The Wisdom of Morrie website
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Transcript: Rob Schwartz
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. My guest this week is Rob Schwartz, journalist, music and film producer, entrepreneur, and son of the late Morrie Schwartz of Tuesdays with Morrie fame. Rob has founded a number of companies both in Japan and The US and has produced numerous film and music projects with international teams. Rob and I talk about his experiences in Japan and India and how travel enhances creativity and the role of listening in language learning and the influence of language on thinking and behavior.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:46]:
Rob also tells me about The Wisdom of Morrie, his father’s last book, which encourages readers to challenge stereotypes and find fulfillment in later stages of life. I think you’ll enjoy my wide ranging conversation with Rob Schwartz. Rob, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Rob Schwartz [00:01:04]:
Thank you so much. Really happy to be here.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:06]:
So I start everybody off with the same question. Were you a creative kid, or did you discover your creative side later on?
Rob Schwartz [00:01:15]:
I would say that I was a creative kid. I mean, I didn’t pursue anything in particular, but I think I had that kind of mindset from early on thinking about things in a creative way. I never sorta, like, fit into the mold of of a normal kid, I would say.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:34]:
So how did that manifest for you, do you think?
Rob Schwartz [00:01:39]:
You mean in later life or or as a child?
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:41]:
When you were a kid. And did did your family encourage you, or were they kind of indifferent? Or did they
Rob Schwartz [00:01:47]:
Oh, no. They were very encouraging. I think that, with me, it it was, reasonably abstract. So I read a lot, and I had a lot of ideas about, you know, maybe abstract or intellectual things. Actually, both my parents are kind of academics, intellectuals, so they encourage that kind of thing. And it’s really funny because my brother was so a 180 degrees the opposite. He’s so amazing with his hands, taking things apart, putting them back together just like an incredible mechanic. Anything to do with your hands, he can cook.
Rob Schwartz [00:02:23]:
He can and I was always just, like, head in the clouds, thinking about things abstractly, and, of course, talking about them.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:30]:
Isn’t that interesting how you can grow up in the same house and be so different?
Rob Schwartz [00:02:34]:
Yes. Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:35]:
Happens so often. Yeah. So when did you start to hone in on your creative side?
Rob Schwartz [00:02:45]:
It’s a good question. Probably started when I was in college. Had a bunch of, projects and, we were very political. We were very politically motivated, but I also had a bunch of creative projects, But it probably really took off. And I moved to Japan right after university. So, you know, that’s a whole new world. Everything is different. And I started to do a lot of creative things.
Rob Schwartz [00:03:14]:
I started to write. I became a journalist. I got involved in filmmaking. I got involved in music production.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:23]:
So how did you end up with the opportunity to move to Japan?
Rob Schwartz [00:03:28]:
You know, I just wanted to do it. And, I worked for a few months, maybe, almost close, I guess, a year before I moved to save some money. And, yeah, I just picked up and moved there at that time. And I think probably even still today, it was pretty easy to move there and to get sort of a basic job, you know, teaching English or something like that. If you wanna build a career, and I did, then it takes more effort. Certainly, anybody moving to Japan, I would tell them, you know, be prepared for a long haul. Don’t think you’re gonna go to Japan for a year and really, you know, get a lot accomplished. And, also, be aware that you’re gonna have to learn the language.
Rob Schwartz [00:04:08]:
You can’t really get by in English doing creative things. So if you’re willing to make that commitment, I think it’s it’s, you know, it’s a great opportunity, and it’s pretty relatively easy to do once you decide you wanted to do it. Right? For me, it was just a decision. Okay. This is what I’m gonna do. This is the plan. You study about it. You learn about it.
Rob Schwartz [00:04:26]:
You know what you need to do, and then you get there. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:30]:
So had Japan always been a goal, or is it that you knew you wanted to go somewhere and that just seemed like the right place at the right time.
Rob Schwartz [00:04:38]:
It’s funny because it’s sort of like a little from this category, a little from
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:42]:
that category.
Rob Schwartz [00:04:44]:
It wasn’t always the goal. In fact, it wasn’t really even the goal until, probably right around the time I was graduating. But I had been in India in, my junior year or something like that, and I decided that I wanted to explore Asia more. I studied a lot of I studied philosophy in university, but I studied a lot of Asian philosophy, and I studied, Chinese and Japanese history. So I had that background. And then at that time, late eighties, early nineties, Japanese economy was really booming. So everything seemed to come together. It made sense to go there.
Rob Schwartz [00:05:22]:
Like, these days, maybe not right this second, but a few years ago, people would go to China because the economy was booming and stuff. I think politically right now, that’s maybe not the best thing. But, you know, so it really shifted away from Japan in the last, let’s say, twenty years. But at that time and Japan was really a place that was attractive for a lot of reasons, and it all sort of came together for me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:47]:
Well, that’s cool. And Yeah. I mean, both India and Japan, it’s it’s it’s an interesting set of contrast because they’re both so different from being here, but they’re also so different from each other.
Rob Schwartz [00:06:00]:
Yes. Yes. I could talk about that that that for a long time if you’re interested. I mean, I’m not sure how much your listeners know. So just very briefly, I mean, India is very chaotic. Right? It is a huge mix of cultures of their own cultures. Because, basically, in India, each state has its own culture and its own language. There’s, like, 30 or 40 major languages in India, and it’s very chaotic.
Rob Schwartz [00:06:25]:
And, of course, it’s also a lot of different religions and people very attached to their religions, very, you know, observant. And Japan is pretty much the opposite. It’s very, very organized. And religion, not that it doesn’t exist, but it’s very much in the background. People are very focused on work and society. This may not be so different between India and Japan, a little bit different, but, you know, Japan has always thought of as this this group society where people are so concerned about the group, and they sublimate their individual interest. That that’s really true. And I could talk about that for a long time.
Rob Schwartz [00:07:02]:
In India, much less so. Indians are more individualistic, than than Japanese closer to us, let’s say. But, also, the social pressures in India are intense. So that’s the that’s the flip side of that. Very, very intense. And we can talk about that as well if you like. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:20]:
Wow. I have to think because one of the things that I’m always fascinated by is how travel influences the creative process. Yes. And I have to think that both of those must have been eye opening in a in a creative respect and must have left a mark on you
Rob Schwartz [00:07:36]:
in your creative process. Oh, absolutely. And I would agree with you a 100%. I mean, traveling in any way, even just out of your hometown, is gonna, you know, widen your perspective. But going to a different culture is just completely widens your perspective, opens your eyes to see things in a different way. And that’s what creativity is about. Right? Seeing things in a way that you’re not used to seeing it or that you’re not used to be showing it shown it or that, you know, is different than is the received the received view, shall we call it. Right? That’s what it is about.
Rob Schwartz [00:08:10]:
So travel is absolutely is gonna give you a whole different perspective on the world and society and yourself. That’s the thing If you read great travel writing, that’s the thing they always stress is that you find out things about yourself by experiencing things that are so different than yourself.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:30]:
Yeah. So what you know, if you had to so it feels like such an unfair question because they’re both such big experiences. But if you had to, you know, come up with one or two things that, you know, you got out of both of those countries, what would they be likely to be?
Rob Schwartz [00:08:47]:
Oh, that is a that is a big question. Oh, wow. With Japan, I would say I mean, in in respect to their culture, probably some discipline. I wasn’t that disciplined before I went there, and they’re an extremely disciplined people and disciplined society. A kind of delicacy. The Japanese treat each other with a kind of delicacy that is unknown in American culture. And, you know, if you’re gonna participate in their society and speak in their language, which I do, then you’re gonna have to learn that. You know? If you don’t learn that, people are gonna think that you’re really rude, basically.
Rob Schwartz [00:09:30]:
They they have a very polite, delicate way of of, dealing with each other. Now it doesn’t mean that they’re always wonderful to each other. That can be twisted in ways to be, you know, more that we’re more familiar with, whatever condescending or what have you. But on the basis of it, they have a really delicate way of dealing with each other. In India, it’s something to do with the overall wonder of the world and some kind of spiritual connection. Even if it you don’t take on their spiritual connection, you see so much of that around you that I think it’s impossible not to take it on. And wonder of the world, not only spiritually, but the land is so rich and so diverse. You have desert.
Rob Schwartz [00:10:16]:
You have the Himalaya, which are the highest mountains in the world. You have oceans. You have islands, you know, wonderful rivers. And and it’s just incredible country, so diverse both culturally and geographically. So I think that, that’s, you know, that kind of spiritual connection and that kind of diversity of experience, is what you what I got from India.
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:40]:
Wow. And I think there’s a huge spiritual dimension to creativity too.
Rob Schwartz [00:10:45]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, but that’s we could talk about this all day. That’s that’s the interesting thing. It’s like, some people experience it as spirituality, and some people don’t, but I think they’re talking about the same thing. There’s some connection, whether you call it spirit or just to an idea or whatever. However you experience it, it’s some kind of connection that’s something beyond yourself. Right? Even if you don’t consider yourself a spiritual person.
Rob Schwartz [00:11:16]:
So then it comes down to language. What words are you using to describe it? But I think the experience is quite similar. So in in essence, I agree with you. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:26]:
Yeah. And I think sometimes it’s hard even to come up with the words to describe it.
Rob Schwartz [00:11:30]:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Yeah.
Rob Schwartz [00:11:34]:
I mean, it is hard to talk about creativity sometimes. You know? What is at its base, what is creativity? Right? You know? It’s it’s making something. It’s creating. But where does that come from? Where does the idea come from? It’s very hard to know. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:48]:
Right. I mean, those stories about, you know and I I can’t remember which composer it was who said it. I wanna say it was one of the Italian composers like Vivaldi or Verdi or one of the ones who starts with v, but I could be wrong that said, you know, I was just taking dictation. You know? Like, it didn’t come from me. It came from somewhere else, and I just wrote it down. Yeah. And, you know, I I’ve had a moment or two like that, and it’s the wildest thing ever. And I don’t know how else to describe it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:17]:
Right. You know? And I don’t know how to describe it to anyone who’s never experienced that. And if you have experienced that, I’m not sure I need to describe it to you. You know? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Rob Schwartz [00:12:27]:
It’s a
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:28]:
weird weird place.
Rob Schwartz [00:12:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that. I’m not sure that I’ve ever had that experience directly per se, but I can understand feeling that it’s coming from somewhere else so that you are just the the vessel that’s recording it or what have you. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:46]:
Yeah. Well, so you went to Japan.
Rob Schwartz [00:12:52]:
Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:52]:
Did you know the language when you got there?
Rob Schwartz [00:12:55]:
I had studied it on a very basic level, so I maybe knew some very basic stuff, But it took a while it took a while to learn the language, some years. I never studied. I just listened to people and spoke, and then people correct you and you hear them. You know, the key to learning a language, and I’m not sure if this is what your podcast is about or I could say it briefly, is listening. Right? Is opening up your ears because and and maybe we’ll get to this later, but I’m really into languages and linguistics, and we can talk about that. And I think that there is a big creative aspect to that as well. But learning a new language is means, by definition, learning new sounds, learning new words and new sounds. So you need to open up your ears to make those new sounds available to you.
Rob Schwartz [00:13:42]:
So that’s the key to at least beginning to learn a language is is opening up your ears, listening really carefully to what people are saying, and then trying to imitate trying to imitate them directly. Like, get it, you know, spot on, not just, you know, close. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:00]:
Yeah. And I think I mean, because you’re a musician. You know?
Rob Schwartz [00:14:04]:
I’m actually not a musician, but that’s okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:06]:
Oh, sorry.
Rob Schwartz [00:14:08]:
I produce music. I produce music. I ran some record labels, but I would never call myself a musician. No.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:14]:
Because I’ve always heard that, you know, if you’re musical, it’s easier to pick up languages. And I and I think that that’s
Rob Schwartz [00:14:21]:
I think it’s true. Not. I definitely think it’s true because musicians, you know, hear music in a whole different way than non musicians. You can hear the tones. You can hear the gradation between the tones, and that’s gonna help you hear words and pronunciations and stuff for sure For sure. And there is some without getting too abstract. I think there is some confluence between music and language. Obviously, language is, you know, got more meaning embedded in it.
Rob Schwartz [00:14:49]:
Music is more up to our own interpretation, but they’re both systems which are through sound, basically. And, yeah, there is a there is a lot of meeting points between the two.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:00]:
Yeah. Music is one of the few the few things where you’re actually taught to listen.
Rob Schwartz [00:15:07]:
You know? Most people are
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:09]:
not taught to listen.
Rob Schwartz [00:15:11]:
Right. Right. Especially in this society. Our society is about getting your point of view out there and making yourself heard as opposed to listening. And, you know, it sounds kind of trite when you say it now, but you learn a lot more by listening than you do by talking.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:26]:
You really, really do. It’s it’s kind of amazing in a way that shouldn’t be. It’s sort of embarrassing when you start to realize how much more you learn when you really listen, because we all think that we listen a lot more than we really do.
Rob Schwartz [00:15:43]:
Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:44]:
And then when we notice the difference, you’re like, boy, what have I been missing all this time? Right. I thought I was paying attention, and I thought I was really listening, and I really haven’t been.
Rob Schwartz [00:15:56]:
Right. Right. And I mean, that opens up a whole another discussion about even when you do listen, how much do you catch and how much do you retain? Because, you know, there’s so much stuff out there, and our brain is gonna whittle it down. It’s gonna filter it to just a certain amount of things that we can that we can latch onto. But for sure, listening is absolutely crucial. It’s for learning, for learning languages, for learning anything. You know? It’s crucial. And, I mean, I have to say, personally, for one of my my, the ways that I look at people.
Rob Schwartz [00:16:28]:
When I meet somebody, that’s the first thing that I try and observe to the about them. Are they really listening to me? Are they just waiting for me to finish talking so they can talk? You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:38]:
Right. Because that’s what most of us do.
Rob Schwartz [00:16:40]:
Well, I don’t wanna say most of us, but, you know, there’s some people like that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:45]:
A lot of us.
Rob Schwartz [00:16:46]:
Okay. About your superior wisdom.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:50]:
Well, in fairness, I don’t think we realize that.
Rob Schwartz [00:16:53]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:53]:
Right. We’re focused on what we think we need to respond with. And because we’re focused on preparing that next comment, we miss a lot of what the other person’s saying because that’s not where your attention is.
Rob Schwartz [00:17:07]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:08]:
So it’s not malicious. It’s just kind of Right. Where we are.
Rob Schwartz [00:17:13]:
I think there’s two or three reason we could analyze why. Why? What are the reasons for that? And I think there’s two or three reasons. I mean, I think at base, this is certainly American culture. Maybe it’s endemic to the world at large now, but people wanna get their opinion out there. They wanna be heard. They wanna feel like, you know, they’re whatever, putting it out there or participating or whatever. And, you know, I understand that feeling, but maybe it’s a little bit too dominant in our society. You know? That, and that that’s about ego.
Rob Schwartz [00:17:45]:
That’s about, you know, wanting to be whatever important present, or what have you. You know? And, yeah, it’s maybe a little bit overpowering in our society the way American culture has developed. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:18:00]:
I would agree with that.
Rob Schwartz [00:18:01]:
Yeah. Much much less so in Japan. Much less so. Not not nonexistent, but less so. People are much more, you know, within themselves and participate in the group, and you you’ll enjoy this. It makes for very interesting discussions because, you know, our discussions are like, you say something, and I have to respond exactly to what you said. Right? If I start talking about something else, that would be weird in America. Right? But in Japan, that often happens.
Rob Schwartz [00:18:33]:
Somebody you know, you’re having a group discussion, and somebody will make some comment and everybody go, oh, well, that they’ll take it in. And the next person start talking, we’ll just talk about something completely different. They won’t respond directly to that person or feel like it’s gotta be, you know, a direct they’ll just take it go off in the direction that they want to. So I’m not saying either way is better. It it definitely weird for us as Americans, even as an American who speaks Japanese. But, you know, that’s a cultural difference.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:01]:
Yeah. It’s it’s about what you’re used to.
Rob Schwartz [00:19:04]:
Right. Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So did you ever fully adjust to that? Does it still feel weird if you encounter that
Rob Schwartz [00:19:12]:
kind of Okay. So now you’re moving into territory. We could talk about this. We have to talk about the book at some point.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:17]:
We do. We do. Don’t worry.
Rob Schwartz [00:19:19]:
Once again. We’ll get there. But but now you’re getting into really, as I mentioned earlier, my sort of, love and, things that I’m investigating now. So this will answer the question, where is my curiosity leading me? But, language is, how can I express this? Is so much defining the way that we think and the way that we react and even what we feel. You know, people who only speak one language think, okay. You know, this is tree stands for this object, and you just put a bunch of those together and that’s language. That’s so not it at all. Language is a complete worldview.
Rob Schwartz [00:20:04]:
It’s a complete value system. I mean, not specific, but general values, but it’s a worldview. It really defines how we see the world. So when I was in Japan and I was speaking Japanese, you’re thinking in a whole different way. If you really speak a language, anybody who speaks two languages knows this. You don’t translate in your mind. You’re just speaking that language. You’re thinking in that language.
Rob Schwartz [00:20:29]:
So it’s very natural for me to participate in a Japanese discussion the way that I previously outlined and not think like, oh, that’s weird that he didn’t respond directly to what that other person says because you’re in that Japanese context. You’re in that Japanese language, and it’s a different world. It’s literally a different world. And this part, I actually wrote some essays on in Japan. You have a different personality. I mean, not completely different, but significantly different. I have a significantly different personality in Japanese than in English. I’m much more polite.
Rob Schwartz [00:21:04]:
And and that sounds funny, but it’s true. It’s true.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:07]:
It makes a lot of sense because you’re right that, you know, the the language and the culture are so intertwined that the culture informs how you use the language and that informs how you interact. And so
Rob Schwartz [00:21:20]:
That’s exactly
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:20]:
you are.
Rob Schwartz [00:21:21]:
That’s exactly right. And you have to remember, we’re we’re talking a pretty extreme case. Right? Japanese language and Japanese culture and English language and American culture are extremely different. Right? If you have two languages that are closer, like English and Spanish, then the difference isn’t so noticeable. But I think anybody who’s truly bilingual would probably tell you something similar, that they had maybe have slightly different personality or they see the world a slightly different way. But Japanese and English is so noticeable because they’re so different.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:51]:
Yeah. I’m sure. I’m sure. Yeah. Wow.
Rob Schwartz [00:21:56]:
Yeah. And I love languages. I mean, we could talk about this for hours, and every language is, you know, has its own way of presenting things. And it’s so funny. I have this book that says, like, 10 myths about language. And there’s a couple of them that people just can’t believe, but Lingus will tell you these really are myths. For example, one language is spoken more quickly than another. That’s a myth.
Rob Schwartz [00:22:22]:
All languages are spoken approximately at the same speed. But if you hear a language you don’t understand, it sounds like they’re talking very quickly. Another one, which I really love, is that some languages are more logical than other languages. It’s a complete myth. How would you even go about establishing that? What language would you analyze that language in? Every language is a closed system. And with inside of that language, it’s completely logical. French linguists back, like, a hundred years ago were completely convinced that French was the most logical language. But, of course, French was their language.
Rob Schwartz [00:22:58]:
Right. Obviously, they thought that. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:01]:
Right. I mean, I I took French in middle school and high school, and I took some Latin in college that nearly killed me. And, you know, what nearly killed me with Latin was that not only did you have to learn all of the different verb conjugations, but you essentially had to learn to conjugate nouns because you declined them and all of that. And and it was just so stinking much to try to remember.
Rob Schwartz [00:23:28]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:29]:
Yeah. But if you were an ancient Roman, it made perfect sense because, of course, it did. You grew up with it. You you know, it it you didn’t know anything else.
Rob Schwartz [00:23:37]:
Right. But it’s it’s not a myth. Sorry to interrupt you. It’s not a myth that some languages are more complicated than others. I mean No.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:43]:
I mean
Rob Schwartz [00:23:44]:
But Latin and Russian, like, unbelievable grammatical declensions and, you know, and then we have Indonesian, which doesn’t even have a past tense. You know? There’s just like they can still communicate everything that we communicate the other languages. They just do it in different ways. Right. But the grammar is is more simple. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:04]:
Right. Right. But but yeah. I mean, that that was not something I was prepared for in Latin, but, you know, it it had its system. I mean, you could see how it worked. Whether or not I could make you know, keep track of it in my head Right. Was my own personal problem.
Rob Schwartz [00:24:20]:
Right. For sure. For sure.
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:22]:
So so yeah. I mean, it it if if you grew up with it, it made perfect sense. And that’s also, you know, where you start to learn, yeah, the Romans have a whole pile of different words for war because the Romans spent a whole heck of a lot of time after war.
Rob Schwartz [00:24:40]:
There’s that too. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But just getting back to grammar for a second, it is true that if it’s closer to your language, it is it seems to be easier to learn. Like, some languages don’t have masculine and feminine. So that’s gonna be really hard for them to take on. But we, Yeah. We don’t have that in English, come to think of it.
Rob Schwartz [00:25:01]:
We don’t really have masculine and feminine English. But, but, yeah, it’s actually I guess it’s not that hard for us to learn. But, like, then there’s some languages like German that also has neuter. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:12]:
Right. Right. Or, you know, coming the other way, you know, I taught English as a second language for a while, and I taught kids who, you know, their native languages didn’t have articles. So they were constantly leaving articles out or using the wrong ones
Rob Schwartz [00:25:28]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:28]:
Because they just didn’t make as much sense to them.
Rob Schwartz [00:25:30]:
And articles actually are really difficult. Actually, really difficult to get to get Yeah. Correct. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:37]:
Yeah. They make sense to us because they’ve, you know, always been there. But if you’re But
Rob Schwartz [00:25:42]:
this is another right. This is another fascinating point. If you ask somebody who’s not particularly, like, studying language, what’s what’s the difference between a book and the book? They’ll have a hard time explaining it to you. Maybe you know immediately because you taught English as a second language. And I also, for a while, taught English as a second language and and I’m very into linguistics. So we could explain technically how those are different. But most native speakers of a language have no idea about the grammar in terms of explaining it. They just know it intuitively.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:15]:
Right. And with English, English is such a hodgepodge of stuff that it has just sucked up from other languages that there were moments when I would just have to look at my kids and say, because it’s English. I’m sorry. I wish I had a better explanation for you. Right. But this is one of those things that doesn’t make much sense, and it’s just the way it is.
Rob Schwartz [00:26:34]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:35]:
Right.
Rob Schwartz [00:26:35]:
Well, I mean, you say hodgepodge, so I don’t know if this is too much about language for your podcast. But since I love languages so much, English is basically, Anglo Saxon and French Mhmm. Smashed together because the French invaded England in October. And if you look at the structure of the language, you can see all of the stuff that comes from French
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:59]:
and
Rob Schwartz [00:26:59]:
all of the stuff that remains from Anglo Saxon because all the stuff comes from French. It’s like all of our, like, upper class words and Yep. Intellectual words. Intellectual is a comes from French. Right? And you can even see it in the food. Right? Like, why do we say beef and not cow for what we because it’s la boeuf from French.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:19]:
Right.
Rob Schwartz [00:27:20]:
But we say brot, bread. That’s from the Anglo Saxon, which, of course, sounds like German. Right? Yeah. So you you can see how it’s mashed together. Of course, there’s other influences as well, but those are the two main ones. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:33]:
Yeah. And then you get, you know, random words from Irish and, you know, other stuff and and that’s where Yeah.
Rob Schwartz [00:27:40]:
It’s
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:40]:
like yeah. This this word has a strange spelling. And the only good reason that I can give you for why it’s spelled this way is because somebody transliterated it that way when they came over from wherever. Yeah.
Rob Schwartz [00:27:52]:
Right. Or even, you know, it’s it’s leftover from old Norse or old Anglo Saxon or what have you. You know? Of course, English spelling makes no sense. We all know that. It’s just really off the wall. It’s just just have to memorize it. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:08]:
Yep. Yeah. So before we get to the book, I would love to hear a little bit about your, you know, time with music labels and and working in that.
Rob Schwartz [00:28:18]:
Sure. Sure. So, basically, I went to Japan as I told you, and I taught English for a couple of years. And as we were talking about, my creative side sort of took over as, like, alright. I wanna write. So I became a journalist and a photojournalist. So I I wrote on all different kinds of subjects, but what I most enjoyed writing about was music and film. And I had studied some film in in university.
Rob Schwartz [00:28:42]:
And, so those two loves in writing and also photography took me down those paths in, in my career. So I basically, wrote about music and then got involved with creating music labels in Japan. And I can talk about them very specifically if you like. Both of them are defunct now. And, the Japanese music industry is quite different than the rest of the world in many, many ways, and we can talk about it if you like. And for a while, the labels went really well. But after a certain point, it was like, okay. This isn’t so profitable anymore.
Rob Schwartz [00:29:21]:
But I was lucky because right around the time my labels were fading, I got the opportunity to be the billboard bureau chief slash correspondent in Asia. And I did that for a long time, thirteen twelve, thirteen years. And, you know, Billboard is a recognizable name, going from running small labels. And I did report for some pretty big magazines, but I wasn’t didn’t have an official position. So oftentimes, like, people not returning your phone calls or whatever to everybody always returning your phone calls. That was that was great. It was a, you know, it was a a real blessing because Billboard is such an important name in the music industry. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:00]:
Sure. Got me thinking about all of those Japanese 12 inch singles that I bought when I was in middle school and high school.
Rob Schwartz [00:30:08]:
And Oh, right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:09]:
You know? How different they you know? It’s just such a novelty to have something that, you know, it’s like, oh, but it’s the Japanese one. Like Right. How different was it really? I don’t know. But it seemed very different at the time for sure. Right.
Rob Schwartz [00:30:24]:
Right. Well, as as is probably well known and you probably know as well, because as we talked about earlier, you know, they’re very focused on work. They’re very disciplined. They produce really, really high quality stuff. So that’s why they rule the world in cameras and cars and electronics for so long. Not anymore. We could talk about that. But, you know, pressing a record, the quality of the pressing is really important.
Rob Schwartz [00:30:48]:
So their pressings were were really, really good, and that’s why they were, you know, they were valued. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:54]:
I actually had no idea. I always thought that there was some different, you know, cultural thing or or that it was a different mix or something like that, but I didn’t realize that it was actually the record itself. That’s interesting. Yeah. It tells you what I didn’t understand when I was that age too.
Rob Schwartz [00:31:11]:
It’s possible that there was a different mix for Japan, but you’re talking about American artists or British artists.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:18]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it’s likely I was wrong.
Rob Schwartz [00:31:21]:
Yeah. They’re probably not different. Occasionally, there would be a a different mix for Japan. But, usually, yeah, it was just the quality of the pressing and possibly the artwork as well would be different for Japan. They’re trying to appeal to the market. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
Rob Schwartz [00:31:39]:
Right. And just to add the the the final piece there. So I got involved in music, and I also got involved in film. So I’ve produced some films, and I really love filmmaking. And today, it’s a lot easier with video and stuff. But to make a feature film and do it properly and, you know, promote it properly takes so much money. They’re really, really big projects.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:01]:
Sure.
Rob Schwartz [00:32:01]:
I’ve done it three or four times. So
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:04]:
Wow.
Rob Schwartz [00:32:05]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:07]:
So now you’ve got this book
Rob Schwartz [00:32:10]:
Yes. Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:12]:
Of the the famous Tuesdays with Morrie.
Rob Schwartz [00:32:16]:
Yes. My dad, Morrie. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:20]:
So and and I was I was fascinated, you know, when I first heard about it because I remember Tuesdays with Morrie, and I read the book at the time. Haven’t read it since, so it’s a little on the fuzzy side in my memory. But, but yeah. So so this new book is actually kind of an old book that you’ve revived, And and it’s interesting to read it because, you know, all of the references are from the nineties Right. And the the maybe some from the eighties. So had you expected to go and and do something with this book at some point
Rob Schwartz [00:32:57]:
Alright. So previously? Yeah. I’ll tell the story so so you can get the the the idea of the flow of it. So, basically, I had traveled around Asia. We’ll go way back to to start at the beginning, and I came back to The United States in 1989. And that’s exactly where my father was working on this book. He wrote it from, like, late nineteen eighty eight until 1992. Most of the work in 1989, 9091.
Rob Schwartz [00:33:25]:
’92, he edit well, he didn’t really edit, but he collated it and tried to get it published. In any case, I was traveling around. I came back. I was living at home for three months before I moved to Japan full time. And I talked with my father a lot about his ideas about this book and what he was doing and what was so exciting for him. And, you know, that was great that we got to sit around and talk. I was living at home. I wasn’t working, so I had a lot of free time.
Rob Schwartz [00:33:53]:
And then I moved to Japan. He continued to write the book and then tried to get it published and wasn’t able to and then developed ALS, got sick as is well well described in in Mitch’s book, did all the stuff, all the TV, and met Mitch. Then he passed away, and Tuesdays with Morrie became this incredible phenomenon. Five years on the bestseller list. You know? Just incredible number one on the bestseller list, just incredible amount of sales, 18,000,000 copies or some absurd number translated into 40 languages, you know, just crazy. And, I still was going back and forth between The US and Japan, visit my mother. She we had a house in Newton, Massachusetts, and, she kept his study just as it had been when he was alive. And I was in there as we’ve discussed.
Rob Schwartz [00:34:50]:
I was a journalist. I would be writing my my, articles. And one day, I just pulled open a desk drawer. It’s really happened just like that. I just was like, oh, let’s see what’s in here. And there was this big bound manuscript with hardcover written from, like, you know, the first word to the last word. Some people have incorrectly said, oh, he put this book together from his father’s notes. It’s like, no.
Rob Schwartz [00:35:15]:
This book was fully written from beginning to end. As you said, there’s a lot of references from the late eighties, early nineties in there. I think, actually, they’re still quite relevant, but we can get to that. And, I remembered as soon as I looked at the manuscript, oh, yeah. Dad wrote this, and I talked to him about it. And I was really excited for him at the time, but it just languished there for I mean, how many years would that be? Twelve years or something like that? And he had been gone for seven or eight years by the time that I found the book. And then I knew, like, okay. You know, I should really do something with this.
Rob Schwartz [00:35:57]:
But it was a really long process to to do it for a number of reasons. And, of course, my mother was very heavily involved, which I can explain if you’re interested. But pretty much, to answer your question, once I found it again, I knew that I should do something with it, that my father would wanna would have wanted this book to be published. And now we have the opportunity because of Mitch’s incredible book that touched so many people. We have so much feedback from Tuesdays with Morrie. I mean, I could tell you so many stories of meeting people, and they find out who my father is, and they, like, burst into tears. You know? So
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:35]:
I bet. Well and and I was you know, I don’t remember because it’s been so long since I’ve read Tuesdays with Morrie. If if that book mentions the books that your dad was so well known for. But, you know, when I read this one, it’s like, wait. He wrote this groundbreaking book about, you know, mental hospitals? Like, really? I had I had no idea. So it kind of surprises me that with that background, he wasn’t able to get this one published when he originally wrote it. But at the same time, you know, I’m glad that something happened that that made it possible for it to come out now.
Rob Schwartz [00:37:14]:
Yeah. I mean, I can speak to that. So first of all, no. Mitch doesn’t mention the mental hospital or any of the three academic books that my father wrote. You have to remember, they’re a long time before, not even is with Moore. They’re before he Mitch even met my father. The mental hospital is 1954. The they published, the nurse and the mental patient in, I think, ’56 or ’57, and the next book was in the sixties.
Rob Schwartz [00:37:42]:
So this is even ten years before, my father met Mitch. So but you have to remember, these were academic one. They were a long time before, and they’re academic works. Like True. Even even if it’s a watershed academic work, it’s not gonna sell as much as a moderately successful, you know, paperback.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:01]:
Mhmm.
Rob Schwartz [00:38:01]:
I could just aren’t that good. They they exist in an entirely different world. Right? So the mental hospital was this huge watershed. It was used as a textbook to train psychiatrists. It was, you know, heralded as a major breakthrough. It’s the reason that my father got his position at Brandeis University. He was made a full professor immediately with tenure. He didn’t have to go through the ranks and be promoted.
Rob Schwartz [00:38:27]:
He just immediately that’s how much of a, you know, watershed the book was. But by the late, eighties, when he started writing this book, the reason that he started writing it is that he was forced to retire. In 1986, he was forced to retire. So not only were all of his academic achievements long, long before, but he was finished or, you know, no longer a full professor when he started writing this book. And that’s a lot of what it’s about. This book is saying, like, just because society says, okay, you know, we’re not gonna let you do that job anymore, Doesn’t mean you have to go off and sit in a corner. This can be the most joyous, creative, fulfilling time in your life. And then my father goes on to explain why.
Rob Schwartz [00:39:12]:
Yeah. He
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:12]:
does. And and it’s it’s really you know, I mean, not to be totally cliche, but none of us are getting any younger. Right. Right. Right. And and so, you know, I’m I’m not the age that he’s talking about, but, you know, give give me twenty, twenty five years. Sure. You know? It’s it’s not like it’s as far away as it once was.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:36]:
Right. And and so I’m kind of looking at it from that lens and also, you know, watching other people that I know who are at that point. And so it it’s a little it’s not like reading it when you’re 25.
Rob Schwartz [00:39:48]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:48]:
Right. And and it’s very interesting to see how he’s broken it into the different chapters. He’s kind of categorized things. Yes. And and the examples that he gives, you know, where where he’s even talking about things like internalized ageism
Rob Schwartz [00:40:07]:
Absolutely.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:07]:
Which I certainly I don’t know how much people talk about that now, but I’m sure nobody was talking about it when he was originally writing the book.
Rob Schwartz [00:40:14]:
It wasn’t it wasn’t, yeah, discussed very much. That’s right. And that’s why he felt it was so important to get this book out. And you you’ve hit on it exactly. I mean, that’s the beginning. That’s that’s his starting point when he was forced to retire, and he started thinking about things, and he realized that society viewed him as an elderly person. And he never viewed himself as an elderly person. And then he realized that not only did society view him as an elderly person, but society had negative connotations with that.
Rob Schwartz [00:40:46]:
And then not only did he realize that society had negative connotations, he realized that he had internalized negative connotations, all these ageist, you know, tropes, and he realized he had to get rid of those, and he had to, you know, try and help other people expunge those and realize it’s really poisonous idea that because you’re elderly, you can’t do something or you’re not mentally competent or whatever. He says that’s all ridiculous. And it’s very much like all of the other things that we’re trying very hard at this point to get rid of from our society, sexism and racism, things that say because of some external factor of, you know, of your of you, you’re less than somebody else, which is just ridiculous, or ableism, any of it. Right? We know that what makes people unique and special has nothing to do with that and has everything to do with what’s inside of them.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:41]:
Right.
Rob Schwartz [00:41:42]:
Their personality and their heart and their, you know, etcetera, willpower and the rest of it. So, yeah, the first part of this book is discussing ageism and trying to help people get rid of that poisonous idea. He actually creates his own term, which he calls age casting, which is, yeah, which hasn’t been adopted, but I hope it is adopted with the publication of this book, which is how elderly people are shove shuttled into a role. Like, now you’re elderly, so you must play this role, but it’s ridiculous. It’s like typecasting an actor. It’s like an elp person can do anything, but we try and push them into these certain limited situations. And that’s what he’s fighting against. So that’s the first part of the book is this kind of a psychological insight, which, of course, relates to my father’s background.
Rob Schwartz [00:42:34]:
And then the next part of the book, the longer part, of course, is about how do you fight against this? How do you live a joyous and creative life? And if you’re having problems, if you’re, you know, stuck, how can you move beyond that? And he gives all kinds of techniques and ideas. And since you’ve read the book, you know, examples and stories and poetry. He’s really trying to inspire people. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:43:00]:
And and they’re, you know, the, he tells some stories that are kind of on the sad side. And I know that they’re there to illustrate, like, this is sort of like what happens when somebody tells you your life is over and you believe it. And, you know, sooner rather than later, your life kind of is over. And it it’s it’s jarring. I mean, I think there was one with the I think her name was Alice, the the therapist who was working into her eighties, and then suddenly someone told her she couldn’t anymore. And it was just heartbreaking.
Rob Schwartz [00:43:40]:
Yes. Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:43:41]:
You know? And and Yeah.
Rob Schwartz [00:43:42]:
I mean, you know I
Nancy Norbeck [00:43:43]:
I don’t know because obviously I’m only me. I’m only one person. My sample size is very small. But but I found myself, you know, imagining myself in those people’s shoes. You know, what would it be like if that were me? You know? And and I think that that is a really powerful technique to illustrate those points because, yeah, I I wouldn’t want somebody saying, you know, nope. Sorry. You’ve done this for, you know, sixty years, but you’re done now. Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:17]:
Just arbitrarily. Right. And I don’t know that people are so much told at this point, you know, oh, sorry. You know, you’re a certain age. It’s time for you to retire no matter what you think about it or how useful you still are. I don’t know if that still happens to the same degree. But even so and it may happen more than I’m aware of. But regardless, we still have that that societal view that’s kind of like, yeah, old man.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:45]:
You’re done. Move on. You know? Get out of the way. And there is a time to kind of hand the baton on to others or to mentor them, and he does talk about mentoring others and and that as not only as a way of of handing on the baton, but of staying engaged in life. And I think that makes sense. It’s that whole, another cliche, the circle of life. Right? But that that’s how it goes.
Rob Schwartz [00:45:10]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, there’s a lot to respond to there. First of all, I think that in certain professions, the forced retirement has been faded out. Other, you know, corporations, obviously, it’s still gonna exist, and they want fresh blood. And there’s not a lot you can do about that. And it is very sad when, you know, somebody is pushed out of a job that they really love, also that they probably are still really good at.
Rob Schwartz [00:45:33]:
But, you know, that that is part of society. And I think part of what my father is saying is if you experience that, look at it as a blessing that you could now go on and do other things. Right? Or even do the same thing in a different way. Start your own company. You know? And as you say, there are some sad stories like that, but there’s also a lot of inspiring stories. When I don’t know if you got to the one of the Chinese guy who graduates university at night Yes. And plans to be a doctor. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:01]:
Yes. There’s a
Rob Schwartz [00:46:02]:
lot of inspiring stories as well, and that’s what they’re there for to say, like, you’re 72 and you’re feeling old. Look at this guy who’s 23 years older than you. You know? It’s like that there’s always a possibility to move forward even if it seems like there’s obstacles in your way, and that that’s what my father’s trying to illustrate.
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:19]:
And I’m not sure if it was that same guy or if it was a different story, but the the one who decided to go to high school because there was so much to learn now that that hadn’t been available.
Rob Schwartz [00:46:29]:
Yeah. That’s a different guy. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:31]:
And I was just like, how many people would even think about that?
Rob Schwartz [00:46:35]:
Yeah. I know. I know. Yeah. I mean, I find the stories very inspiring, and it’s like I think my father understood that different people are inspired or moved by different things. Some people are moved by stories. Some people want exact techniques. How do I, you know, get to where I wanna go? And he lays that out as well.
Rob Schwartz [00:46:57]:
So the book is so rich, and there’s so many different things. There are stories and poetry and lots of techniques and lots of analysis as well of, you know, we could call psychological analysis. If you fall into this rut, maybe try and do this sort of thing.
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:13]:
Yeah. And I liked the the fact that he I mean, he’s obviously not trying to replace, you know, a therapist or or any kind of situation like that, but he does encourage people to reflect on themselves, which I think a lot of older generation folks may not ever have been in a situation to do. You know? There’s the whole generational idea of what therapy and self reflection is and whether or not you should do that. And and I thought that was really, really interesting because, you know, if you’ve never done that before, it might be kinda scary, but he he gives you a little just a just a kind of taste of it to get you started. If you like it, you can keep going.
Rob Schwartz [00:47:56]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:56]:
If it doesn’t really work for you, then, you know, there’s other stuff in the book.
Rob Schwartz [00:48:01]:
Exactly. Exactly. I mean and there’s a lot to say about that because, you know, therapy or whatever you wanna call it, that psychoanalysis exists in so many different social millennials. And I’m sure there’s some in this country where people would still think that’s weird or look down at it. I think the urban, you know, America, it’s still not still, but now is very accepted. You know? People go to therapists and stuff like that. And we can go back in history and look at what my father was involved in that, but, you know, that’s his field. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:34]:
Mhmm.
Rob Schwartz [00:48:34]:
Mental health is his field. So he was in what they called at that time analysis, which was therapy in the nineteen fifties, right, when he was still extremely unusual. But that was his field, so it’s not unusual that he was doing it himself. And then in the nineteen seventies, he started a low cost mental health collective in Cambridge, Massachusetts to bring it to people who didn’t necessarily have the financial means to to get mental health help because it was extremely expensive. And in those days, and the idea of insurance covering that sort of thing was completely ridiculous. So he started this collective called Greenhouse, and they would, you know, do all kinds of, therapy and and sessions. And it was totally on a sliding scale of how much you could afford to pay. And if you could afford to pay zero, that’s what you paid.
Rob Schwartz [00:49:24]:
Right? And that was really, really important to it. That was a big part of his life. So he’s been involved in that, bringing that idea of whatever, helping people with their mental health throughout his whole career and not necessarily in an academic way. I mean, maybe started out in an academic way, but certainly moved to much more popular, you know, reaching out to general people.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:47]:
What was it like for you reading this book for the first time?
Rob Schwartz [00:49:51]:
Well, certainly, it was very exciting. I mean, there’s so many different levels to answer that question on. Intellectually, it was exciting. Emotionally, it was really powerful because you can really hear my father’s voice, you know, booming throughout these pages. And he had been gone a long time when I was reading this book. So, it was very exciting, both intellectually and emotionally. Of course, I have to admit that as soon as I started reading it, I had the idea that I wanted to publish it, and that, basically, it was only me that could bring this project to fruition because, you know, I had talked to him about it. I was his son.
Rob Schwartz [00:50:31]:
In fact, my mother told me that. Once we first started talking about it, she said, well, this is gonna be published. It’s only you who can make this happen. So because I’m a journalist and an editor, as soon as I started reading it, I started reading it with an editor’s eye. Even the first time, I was like, okay. We can cut this. This is too long. So there it it hit me on a lot of different levels when I started reading it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:59]:
I bet you had moments where it was like a conversation in your head.
Rob Schwartz [00:51:04]:
I certainly had to consider whether my father would have objected. I mean, some of the things, you know, since he wrote it over such a long period of time, some of the things were just repetitive. It was odd. Okay. This needs to go. But other things were more of a judgment call. And, you know, I always wonder if my father would have said, like, oh, yeah. You got something important there, but hopefully not.
Rob Schwartz [00:51:25]:
I don’t think so. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:28]:
Well and you have a note at the end of the book about your mom was his one of his editors
Rob Schwartz [00:51:33]:
Yeah. I wrote an essay. A long
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:35]:
time. And then she also had a hand in in some of the editing.
Rob Schwartz [00:51:40]:
That’s right. She put me on the path. We did some of the very first edits of the book. I edited the book about five separate occasions. The first run through, mom helped, and she was my father’s editor. She did edit all three of those academic works that I mentioned in the fifties and the sixties and a lot of the his papers, which were published after that. So she was very familiar with my father’s writings, its weaknesses, how to edit them. And, yeah, she she put me on the path initially, and then I took it from there.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:12]:
Well, that sounds like a a a cool collaboration too.
Rob Schwartz [00:52:15]:
Yeah. Just just to add, I mean, since you read the essay, you’ll know this, but my mother was also a health care professional. She worked a mental health care professional. She worked in the psychiatric clinic at MIT here in in Cambridge in the Boston area and did a lot of research as well and published a lot of papers. So she was a very serious academic in addition to, seeing patients. And she worked at the psychiatric clinic at MIT when she was basically forced to retire because of age. From there, she continued a private practice until she was 91 years old. So it fits fits in with my father’s book.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:54]:
Yeah. It does.
Rob Schwartz [00:52:54]:
And and her own practice, meaning she rented the office. She paid all the bills. She had to do all the bookkeeping as well as treat all the patients. She ran her own business, basically.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:05]:
Good for her.
Rob Schwartz [00:53:06]:
Yeah. She was pretty spectacular. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:08]:
I think just based on having read your dad’s book, I think he’d have been proud of her.
Rob Schwartz [00:53:13]:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. And, I mean, that was something while he was alive. She was working at MIT. I mean, that was something that was taken for granted their entire marriage, that she had a career. You know, she was highly educated.
Rob Schwartz [00:53:27]:
She had a PhD. It was never like she was expected to be some kind of typical housewife. That was never the marriage. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:34]:
Yeah.
Rob Schwartz [00:53:35]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:35]:
Still, good for her.
Rob Schwartz [00:53:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. I have lots of stories about my mom, actually, if
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:40]:
you’re I bet you
Rob Schwartz [00:53:41]:
which is funny which was funny because she was a very private person, and people who know Tuesdays with Morrie, the movie, or the book might notice that she’s more or less absent. And that was by design. She wanted to be kept out of it. She didn’t want her name to be in it. She was super happy that she took that step after it became this incredible bestseller. She didn’t really want her, you know, face to be the face of of the Mori franchise by any by any stretch of the imagination. So she’s very much out of it. But now that she’s not here, I feel that I can talk about her career and her accomplishments, and she would be happy with that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:21]:
That seems fair.
Rob Schwartz [00:54:22]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:23]:
Credit where it’s due.
Rob Schwartz [00:54:24]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:25]:
For sure.
Rob Schwartz [00:54:26]:
Yeah. I mean, I have I do have a lot of stories. I’ll tell you one. So my mother and father met at the University of Chicago in the forties, and my father was getting a PhD. My mother was getting masters at that time. And it was unusual for women to get PhDs at that time. The masters was like what women aim for. So she got this master’s degree, and she taught, sociology and social psychology at different universities around the country at that time before she was married to my father.
Rob Schwartz [00:54:57]:
And she taught at Howard University, a historically black
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:01]:
Yeah.
Rob Schwartz [00:55:02]:
University, which was very unusual for a white woman to be teaching at Howard in the nineteen fifties.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:08]:
I’m sure.
Rob Schwartz [00:55:09]:
She had a lot of of fascinating experiences and, you know, it was very much her orientation to try and bring education to people.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:20]:
Wow.
Rob Schwartz [00:55:21]:
Yeah. Now I’m
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:22]:
thinking maybe you need to write a book about her.
Rob Schwartz [00:55:25]:
Yeah. It’s an interesting interesting idea. I wonder if I have enough material. Maybe. Maybe.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:30]:
You might.
Rob Schwartz [00:55:31]:
Yeah. I might. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:33]:
Yeah. You might. Yeah.
Rob Schwartz [00:55:36]:
I put a little of that in the essay at the end of
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:39]:
the day.
Rob Schwartz [00:55:39]:
I love it. Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:42]:
So what was it like for you when your dad kind of became a celebrity when Tuesdays with Morrie came out?
Rob Schwartz [00:55:50]:
Right. Right. Well, since I was more or less living in Japan when Tuesdays with Mori was published, I wasn’t in the eye of the storm as it were. My mother certainly got lots of correspondence. Lots of people wrote letters and stuff. I I was viewing it a little bit more from afar, though the there was a Japanese version published, and I was on TV in Japan with me talking about it. So, I mean, of course, in one way, it was amazing because, you know, it it always surprises people, especially people who are into the book. My father was not famous in his lifetime.
Rob Schwartz [00:56:26]:
He was not a public figure. I mean, he was an academic, recognized in the academic world. But as you know, that’s an entirely different thing than being celebrity to being in the public eye. And not only that, he never saw one page of Tuesdays with Morrie. Right? Mitch didn’t even start writing it until after my father had passed away. So he didn’t know anything about the book. So it’s kind of ironic that he posthumously became so famous and so beloved. He I get this question a lot.
Rob Schwartz [00:56:55]:
He would have absolutely adored it. He was not a shy person. He would have loved the limelight and the fact that people were interested in his wisdom and what he had to say. He would have absolutely loved that. So in some ways, you know, it was ironic, and we could call it even bittersweet, that he wasn’t able to experience that. But, of course, it was a joy to create this legacy or well, I didn’t actually create it, you know, from Mitch’s book. It was a joy to see this legacy being created. I certainly did my best to push it forward.
Rob Schwartz [00:57:31]:
I did some TV stuff in Japan and a few other things here and there. And then after a while, you know, Mitch wrote a play, and the play started to be performed around the country and around the world. Right? So I started to do q and a after the play. I’ve done q and a after the play all around this country. And in fact, in a lot of international territories, particularly China. The Chinese are very much into the Tuesdays with Mori play. I could tell you
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:00]:
Wow.
Rob Schwartz [00:58:00]:
How it came about, but that’s not that important. What’s important is there’s been 250 performances, more than 250 performances, The most prestigious theaters in Beijing and Shanghai, and it’s just it’s very much, you know, success and highly beloved in China, which is fantastic. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:23]:
Yeah. At the same time, I have to think it must have been kind of surreal too. You know
Rob Schwartz [00:58:28]:
what I mean? Certainly was surreal. Well, I’ll tell you the story. Yeah. I’ll tell you the story. I spent time in China in the eighties and the nineties, and I hadn’t been to China for fourteen years. And I went in 2012 to cover a music festival because I was writing for Billboard as we discussed, and I was covering all of Asia. So Chinese music industry was just starting to become powerful and, vibrant. And the day the night before I left Shanghai, I saw, like, a poster of Tuesdays with Morrie was gonna be performed as a play in Shanghai, and my mind was entirely blown.
Rob Schwartz [00:59:13]:
Like, I had no information that there was even a Chinese version of the book, much less the play had been performed in Shanghai. And then I had to do a whole bunch of research to find out how was this happening. And I had to go through Mitch’s agent who talked about how they licensed the play, and it was a whole number of steps. And I found the guy who was responsible for it, and I talked to him. And that’s how, in the end, I did q and a after the play in Shanghai and Beijing many, many times. But can you imagine, you know, in China, such a completely different culture than ours, finding a flyer, of a play about your father that you had no idea existed?
Nancy Norbeck [00:59:59]:
It it seems to me like it would be an out of body experience.
Rob Schwartz [01:00:02]:
It was pretty crazy. It was pretty crazy. Like, I could not I literally could not believe it. I mean, of course, this is long after Tuesdays with Lori is a huge hit in The US and translated into many, many languages. But the play being performed in China, I had no idea.
Nancy Norbeck [01:00:19]:
Yeah. I’m sure the q and a must be very interesting too.
Rob Schwartz [01:00:24]:
I mean, truthfully, it wasn’t that different than Oh, really? Americans or other places that people wanted to know stories about my father. The typical questions are stories about my father and how accurate is the play in terms of his life, and what’s the most moving part of the play for you. Those are pretty much the kind of questions you get. I mean, of course, there are others as well, but that sort of span different different cultures. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [01:00:51]:
That’s really interesting.
Rob Schwartz [01:00:53]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [01:00:54]:
I wouldn’t have guessed.
Rob Schwartz [01:00:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. So there you go.
Nancy Norbeck [01:00:59]:
There we go. Yeah. Well, since since your dad is famous for his wisdom, since that’s what you’ve called the book and that’s what he’s sharing in the book. Yeah. I’m wondering, you know, what what wisdom have you gained from working on this book?
Rob Schwartz [01:01:14]:
Yeah. I I mean, I think there’s a lot. One, and I think that it’s this has also come through with other projects, but particularly with this one. You know, if you present something that’s valuable or that you think is valuable, other people will get excited and people will help you. The amount of help that I’ve received from people who are just doing it out of the goodness of their heart is just remarkable, and it’s, you know, it’s been so wonderful. So that’s something that, that, you know, I learned by doing this project. You present something that you think is valuable, and people will come to join you to do it. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [01:01:58]:
That’s fantastic.
Rob Schwartz [01:01:59]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [01:02:00]:
So we should all go and and think about what’s valuable to us and
Rob Schwartz [01:02:04]:
Right. And and pursue it. Absolutely. And pursue it. You know? Don’t be shy.
Nancy Norbeck [01:02:10]:
Alright. Words to live by right there.
Rob Schwartz [01:02:12]:
Yeah. So
Nancy Norbeck [01:02:14]:
alright, well, we’ll we’ll put links to the wisdom of Maureen in the show notes and all of that good stuff so that everybody can find you. And thank you so much for coming and talking
Rob Schwartz [01:02:23]:
with me. Pleasure. Thank you so much. I as you can tell, I love talking about all these things from my father to language, to creativity. So I really enjoyed this conversation. And I would say to your listeners, if they buy the book and they like it, if it has something valuable for them, please write a review, either if it’s Amazon or Goodreads because the reviews are really, really important. And, I would I’d really appreciate it.
Nancy Norbeck [01:02:51]:
That’s this week’s show. Thanks so much to my guest, Rob Schwartz, and to you for listening. Please leave a review for this episode. There is a link right in your podcast app. And in it, tell us about a time when you were encouraged to challenge a stereotype. If you enjoyed our conversation, I hope you’ll share it with a friend. Thanks so much. If this episode resonated with you, don’t forget to get in touch on any of my social platforms or even via email at nancy@fycuriosity.com.
Nancy Norbeck [01:03:21]:
Tell me what you loved. And if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now and you haven’t yet signed up for my free email series on six of the most common creative beliefs that are messing you up, Please check it out. It’ll untangle those myths and help you get rolling again. You can find it at fycuriosity.com, and there’s also a link right in your podcast app. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends.
Nancy Norbeck [01:04:03]:
It really helps me reach new listeners. Thanks.