Caroline Whiddon thought she was going to play French horn professionally, but panic and anxiety had other ideas. Fortunately, orchestra administration turned out to be her true home, ultimately leading her to co-found the Me2/ orchestra with her husband, conductor Ronald Braunstein. Braunstein’s bipolar diagnosis left him unable to find work, and Me2/ is the world’s only classical music organization created by and for individuals with mental illnesses and the people who support them. Caroline and I talk about the power of music to create change, what happens when you create stigma-free zones, the documentary, Orchestrating Change, that chronicles Me2/’s journey, and more.
Episode breakdown:
[00:04:31] Following someone else’s strict sense of music education vs. having a strong inner sense of musical identity.
[00:07:36] Panic attacks derail performance career, and lead to orchestra administration instead.
[00:16:44] Starting orchestra administration in Savannah.
[00:22:49] Conductor Ronald Braunstein decides to start a non-auditioned orchestra for the mentally ill.
[00:30:49] Challenging beginnings, slow growth, but incredible progress.
[00:35:15] Integration breaks stigma, impacts everyone’s lives.
[00:41:08] Music for mental health, supporting and educating.
[00:48:20] A chance discovery leads to inspiring documentary.
[00:51:22] Film documents musician’s journey despite challenges.
[00:58:43] Signage promotes safe spaces, challenges stigma.
[01:02:46] Strategic planning for expansion, focus on accessibility.
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Show links
Me2/’s website
Orchestrating Change documentary
Jon Batiste New York Times article
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Transcript: Caroline Whiddon
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people of merry creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Caroline Whiddon thought she was going to play French horn professionally, but panic and anxiety had other ideas. Fortunately, orchestra administration turned out to be her true home, ultimately leading her, to cofounder the Me2/ orchestra with her husband, conductor Ronald Braunstein. Braunstein’s bipolar diagnosis left him unable to find work, and Me2/ is the world’s only classical music organization created by and for individuals with mental illnesses and the people who support them. Caroline and I talk about the power of music to create change, what happens when you create stigma free zones, the documentary Orchestrating Change that chronicles Me2/’s journey and more. Here’s my conversation with Caroline Whiddon. Caroline, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Caroline Whiddon [00:01:07]:
Thank you so much. It’s great to be speaking with you today.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:11]:
So I start everybody off with the same question, which is, were you a creative kid, or did you discover your creative side later on?
Caroline Whiddon [00:01:21]:
Oh gosh. I don’t think that I was a creative kid. I definitely was playing music at a pretty young age. I’m the child of professional musicians. So me and my brother and my sister, you know, we all started piano at a young age. I played the flute. I played the violin. Finally settled on French horns. So I I was musical, but I I hesitate to say that I was creative. Yeah. You know, that may just be because I was I was classically trained and as a child, you know, that really meant reading the notes. Mhmm. I think I think and there is some creativity in that, but it was just such a structured kind of sending where I was taking lessons, and I was you know, the aim was perfection in terms of playing the notes what was on the page, that kind of thing. So I’m gonna say I was youthful, not creative.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:27]:
That’s so interesting. because my gut instinct is to say that every kid is creative, but you have a really good point about that kind of class — physical training and the focus on, you know, getting everything right that I had not really thought about before. That’s really interesting.
Caroline Whiddon [00:02:45]:
You know, it’s something I think about a lot. I think in part because I kind of regret the fact that I never learned how to improvise that I you know, I’m not I’m not even a great sight reader. I can’t just sit down at the piano and do a bunch of chord changes like I really all of my musical education was about learning the notes on the page. Yes. There was room for interpretation. But very often, I felt like that was so strongly guided by my teachers that there maybe wasn’t even that much room for me to insert myself into that, and I never really felt like I had such a strong usable voice that that I needed to do that, honestly. I mean, I think, you know, it’s one of the reasons why I’m not a professional musician these days. You know, I play for fun. I try to hit the right notes. And Yeah. I think that I generally speaking, I think I’m more creative now with an adult in my administrative work, in my, you know, vision work for my organization than I am perhaps as an artist otherwise, just if that makes sense.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:03]:
It it kinda does in a way that I don’t really expect, but it does. And, you know, you have you’re thinking about, like, my piano lessons as a kid. And I and I’m wondering now if maybe that’s why I rebelled against my piano lessons of after 3 years. You know? And I I’m gonna have to think about that a little bit. There’s a reason why I don’t play a piano now, and it’s because I only lasted for those 3
Caroline Whiddon [00:04:31]:
You know, as an aside, I have to tell you, I literally just read an op ed in today’s New York Times that was written by John Batiste, the very, you know, popular former band leader for the Colbert show and He spoke about his early time at Juilliard as a student and told the story, which I was very unexpected to be about how he really was always getting in trouble with the higher ups and with the administration because they had a very kind of stayed strict view of what his dad’s education needed to be. And he felt stifled. He could not please them and also please his inner self. And so it got to a point where they said you gotta drop out or take a year off and figure it out. And and he ended up taking a year off, and he went back, you know, as a a more mature person, a more mature musician, but still and was able you know, obviously, like, not the degree, you know, did has done wonderful things since then. But now he’s a a trustee at Gilead, and he’s in a position where he’s able to work with the leadership at Juilliard, which is you know, has changed over the years to try to make sure that they’re accommodating students who are maybe like he was several years ago when he attended. It just got me thinking about, you know, that it It’s just interesting to think about people who really have such a a strong inner sense of their musical identity and their creativity. And I as a music student, that was not me. I was definitely someone who just kind of went within that strict kind of vision of what my teachers and my school, you know, expected for me and I just yeah. I think, you know, I had a great education, and I love the fact that I have all this you know, it’s very wonderful music training in my background and that I can enjoy playing some music today, but my heart really is in administration, and I do think there’s a certain amount of creativity that’s you know, I’ve maybe it’s just me. I think of creativity and the art automatically, but I think there’s creativity in fundraising and marketing and and strategic planning and all that, you know, everything that I’m I’m so lucky to now be doing on a daily basis too. And I think that’s where I found my creative voice.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:11]:
I think that there’s creativity in everything, so I’m glad that you said that.
Caroline Whiddon [00:07:15]:
Right. Agreed. Agreed.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:18]:
because we all default to the arts, but it’s way more than just the arts.
Caroline Whiddon [00:07:22]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:23]:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So how did you when you said you landed on French horn, how did that end up leading into what you’re doing now.
Caroline Whiddon [00:07:36]:
I finished my bachelor’s in French horn performance at the Eastern School of Music. And I had a graduate assistantship. I was gonna go on and get my master’s and basically had Kind of a breakdown. I mean, I didn’t end up in that hospitalized or anything, but I was at that time, I was soon to be diagnosed with panic disorder, anxiety disorder, and depression. And when I went to the school where I was gonna get my masters and I had a big day of playing placement auditions where they decide, you know, where basically, where they’re gonna place you in different ensembles and things, and it just didn’t go well, and my nerves were shot, and my what I didn’t realize were panic attacks were just kind of swirling all around me, and my my baby brother had gone with me to to this school to kind of help, you know, help me get moved in and stuff. And I remember looking at him at dinner that night and going I don’t think this is the right path for me. I don’t think I can do this. and it was this huge realization that my my anxiety was too overwhelming, and that it was maybe a little bit ridiculous for me to be pursuing a path in performance, which was you know, at that point, I just had to accept. It was obviously exacerbating the anxiety and panic. So made this decision to drop that plan for the master’s degree. And I went back home to Columbus, Georgia, moved back in with mom and dad. And I kinda you know, I could have set up shop for myself there for a couple of years. I was teaching horn lessons, some private lessons. I was playing in some kinda local and regional orchestras, And I started working part time for the Columbusymphony there in town. My mom was the associate concert master there. So She kinda nudged the music director, and I I became the music librarian, then I started doing some office work. And then my mother and I helped to found the youth orchestra of greater Columbus. So that was my pivotal for me. I suddenly was in an office where I was doing everything. Like, I was managing this burgeoning little youth orchestra program, the music, the kids, the fundraising letters, the data entry like all of it, the concert production, and I loved it. I mean, it was I just I knew that was the path I wanted to take. And a couple years later, I got my first what I consider my first big job with the Savannah symphonies, Savannah, Georgia, and I scrolled my horn to one of my private students then at the time so that I had enough money to buy a clunker of a car and drive across the state and really, you know, launch my orchestral admin career. So — Wow. — that’s that’s that’s the story of kind of that first transition from being being a, you know, what I thought was gonna be a full time musician, but really going into the administrative
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:09]:
side of the of the gig. Yeah. And it’s so interesting that, you know, you had that realization right away that this was not the right thing, especially because so many people would be like, no. I have to keep going. I have to keep doing this thing regardless of the fact that, you know, they’re paying a very high price for it.
Caroline Whiddon [00:11:33]:
Yeah. There’s nothing like a series of panic attacks. to really let you know that, you know I mean, I’ve never considered doing anything else. I was raised by professional musicians. There was no other path as far as I was concerned. And then, you know, having these attacks where you literally feel like you are going to die. You’re having a heart attack at the age of twenty two. It makes no sense. You know, it just that’s pretty powerful. And it was so helpful that I, you know, that I had this opportunity to start doing some part time work on the administrative side and it really yeah. Pretty quickly, there was this epiphany of, oh, I love being the person who helps put the musicians on the stage. that’s actually a really comfortable and enjoyable role for me. So, yeah, I mean, I I guess I am lucky. You know, I I also think I was very lucky to have a wonderful 4 years at the Eastern School to get to tour internationally to study with a great private teacher. And, you know, even though after getting this degree that I worked so hard for to realize that that was not going to be the ultimate path. I still rely on those experiences and the skills like, every day in some way.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:59]:
Sure. You can relate to all the people that you’re working with who are going on stage. which you might not have as much otherwise.
Caroline Whiddon [00:13:06]:
Exactly. You know what? I I think about how I think about something as ostensibly simple as setting up the chairs or an orchestra rehearsal. And very often, I’ll you know, I I’ve, like, arrived at a rehearsal in the past and I’ll start setting up the chairs and someone will say, oh can I help? And I very quickly realized even if someone in the They don’t know where all the chairs go, or it’s like if they sit in the string section, they have no idea who sits in the back of the orchestra. They couldn’t tell you how many trumpets or horns there are to save their lives. And it’s you know, I take so much pride in knowing exactly how much room you need between the seats, where the stand should be placed. I mean, that kind of detail, you know, on a very basic level, is what makes musicians comfortable and lets them know that they’re being taken care of, that they’re being treated professionally even if this is not a professional setting. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s great to have that skill set And then on top of it, to have been able to develop, you know, new skills in regards to fundraising and marketing and and strategic planning and working with the board, but it all it all starts with really understanding what the musicians need. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:31]:
because you don’t wanna be playing a violin and whacking your neighbor in the face with your elbow while you’re doing it. Right. I mean, you know,
Caroline Whiddon [00:14:37]:
It’s not a good idea. Nobody likes that. Nobody likes that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:42]:
Nobody at all. Do you think that your mother kind of had instinct that this was the right place for you, or do you think it was just random chance?
Caroline Whiddon [00:14:50]:
Oh, it’s so funny that you asked that. I was so horrified that night when I called my parents from this school where I was going to get my master’s, and I it was like my worst nightmare coming true to have to call my incredible parents, you know, and say, I don’t think I can do this. And it was my mother who immediately said, You know, I’ve been wondering if this was the right path for you. Just come home, it’s okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:31]:
Having had a moment like that myself. Yeah. I appreciate that a lot.
Caroline Whiddon [00:15:36]:
But, you know, my mom, she knew. And, of course, my dad, you know, of course, was happy to welcome me back home. But I I will never forget my mother in that moment just not skipping a beat. It’s saying it’s okay. Come home. Yeah. Yeah. That that’s what she — You know what? — feel like the world’s falling apart. Yeah. You know what? My mother was a violinist and she also struggled with depression and anxiety. So I you know, we never really talked about in that moment whether or not she she was perceiving that in me, but she definitely knew me well enough to know that Maybe this just wasn’t gonna work out, and that was okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:20]:
That’s fantastic.
Caroline Whiddon [00:16:25]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:27]:
Oh, that’s the best. It’s such a huge, huge relief in a moment like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, mom. Oh. Indeed. Indeed. So you went to Savannah.
Caroline Whiddon [00:16:44]:
Yeah. And that’s Quite a great city. Yeah. Great town. I was there for a couple of years and, you know, I’m sorry to say that that orchestra no longer exists that they actually folded stuff years ago, and I I went there. That was in 1994, I’m gonna say, or 99495. And the musicians were just coming off of, like, their second strike, their second, you know, consecutive contract negotiation that resulted in the strike and they were back at work. But it, you know, it wasn’t It wasn’t necessarily a happy a happy orchestra. Mhmm. I mean, we were we were kind of, you know, those are the public staff. got along great. It was a great first job for me, especially because I was I was director of community engagement, which included a lot of education work. So I was like the person who organized, you know, contacting all the schools and having all these kids bust in for concert. I worked really closely with the assistant conductor on those, and he was a dream to work with. And so I I was kind of in the year end of the programs. But my boss, the executive director who hired me, left after a year, and we had a new boss come in. A lot of the staff left, not long after I left. The orchestra went on strike again and subsequently bolded. But, you know, it was two years where I lived in an incredibly beautiful, like, you know, history of rich a city of rich history and just a very colorful place to be. And I got to cut my teeth on cut us some big orchestral events and programs. It was it was very, very cool. but I was also pretty eager to get out of there because it was quickly becoming toxic, which happens. You know? What happens?
Nancy Norbeck [00:18:56]:
Yeah. It can happen anywhere. Yeah. Can happen anywhere. So how did you I mean, what what came between that and Me2/?
Caroline Whiddon [00:19:08]:
In my current job. Yeah. I left this Savannah’s symphony and I ended up taking a job with a long base symphony in Myrtle Beach South Carolina. Myrtle Beach not exactly as you might imagine being a capital of classical music in the country. You know, most of the people there were far more interested in, like, you know, golf and country music than they were in classical music, but I had, you know, I had a year there of being being the executive So, again, like, really getting to kinda cut my teeth on financials and board work for the first time. And then I was I honestly, I was pretty eager to get out of Myrtle Beach. So I had resumes out around the country, and I got a call from the Vermont youth orchestra Association. And I distinctly remember sitting in my office in South Carolina And picking up the phone and going, oh gosh, Vermont. That’s, like, up near Canada somewhere. Right? I mean, I was I was 28 at the time. I’ve never been that far north. I thought, gosh. That’s way up there, and the gentleman who was interviewing me kinda said, like, are you serious about this? You know? Would you really move? Always sounds like your family, everybody’s in the south, would you move? And said, yeah, you know, for the right job — Mhmm. — for the right benefits and all of that. You know, yeah, I would consider it. And I know that’s flying to Vermont. And That was the beginning of my tenure, my 13 year tenure as the executive director of the Vermont Youth Orchestra Association, and it was in so many ways a dream job. I mean, I loved it. I felt like I hit the jackpot. The first thing that we did when I got there was to start a feasibility study and launch a $2,000,000 capital campaign to create this gorgeous facility for the youth orchestra and for other groups in the community to use. We renovated a historic drill hall, a cavalry drill haul. And so here I am, you know, at the age of of twenty nine, thirty. I I’m running around in my construction hat and going to all these construction and design meetings and meeting with active editions and writing presby grants and just I mean, like, doing really big work that felt you know, it felt important. It was important. I mean, it was it was music for 100 of of kids in Vermont, and it was, you know, surprisingly became one of the biggest stupor programs in the country during the time that I was there. We just grew exponentially, and it was a great, great job. And then we lost our music director. He moved on to a different job and we launched an international search for our new music director and pivotal moment. That is when Ronald Braunstein entered the scene, and my life changed forever.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:36]:
In lots of ways.
Caroline Whiddon [00:22:39]:
So many ways. So many ways.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:43]:
So did he came in for Vermont first?
Caroline Whiddon [00:22:49]:
Yeah. Okay. So we launched the search and we had we, you know, did all the inneries, did all the resumes, we got it down to 3 candidates and Ronald came in. And I’m looking at his resume, and he’s, you know, a junior grad. He won the Herbert Von Karajan International Conducting com competition like the biggest competition in the world at that time, especially, you know, Gold Medal. He had guest conducted all over Europe. he taught it went back and taught at Juilliard. He taught at the medical, and I’m thinking, oh my gosh. You know, he’s like it. It’s mid fifties. I guess he’s just ready to kind of get out of the city and come to Vermont like a lot of people are, and obviously enjoys working with kids. He’d done that at Juilliard in the MANTA school. you know, could we be more lucky? And so I remember watching this audition and I literally had tears, you know, coming out of my eyes watching him work on stage with a 100 kids and somehow just like, magically making it feel like chamber music. He transformed the sound of these kids over the course of 15 minutes from something that was already quite good into something that was just special. Mhmm. — in a new way. And yeah. So he got the job. and he packed the bags. He you know, from New York, and he came to Vermont. And I will back up to say when I picked Vermont when I picked Ronald up at the airport for his audition, I immediately thought, gosh. I think this I feel like this guy has been through the wringer. Like, life has been tough. I kind of, like, immediately detected some depression, a darkness about him. I can’t really explain that. You know, it wasn’t I’m not a clinician. I but I just it was an impression I got. It was almost like I could see this cloud overhead. Well, once he moved to Vermont, we started working together, I started to also see this the upside of that of this energy And at the time, I didn’t know what that was. It was several months before he would disclose to me that his diagnosis was bipolar disorder 1. And when he let me know that, it explained so many things, you know, why he was kind of a different person every day when he entered the office, I never really knew that he was gonna be up or down. And but I knew he was just this highly creative kind of quirky guy, but a lot of the staff around me, my staff we’re kind of questioning, like, you know, we don’t I don’t know if this guy’s okay. I don’t know if this is gonna work out. And I kept I I stayed focused on the fact that what I saw him do on the stage was absolutely transformative and that if he couldn’t work an Excel spreadsheet and they wanted to decorate his office with orange fly swatters, which yes, he did–Okay. Quirky genius–I’m fine with that. Just keep doing what you’re doing with the kids. I mean, that was my thing. But the staff thought I mean, they just said, you know, the he’s making our lives more difficult. He doesn’t have a very organized brain in the way that works. accustomed to. And eventually one of them sent to me in an email. We think this guy is mentally ill, and we don’t know how to work with that. And I that kinda sucked the wind out of me. And when Ronald did finally disclose his illness to the board of directors, they said it’s too late. We’ve already voted to fire you. Oof. And at that point, boy, I mean, it really had the rug pulled out from under me. They fired him, but they asked him to stay on for another 3 months to finish the next concert cycle. Yes. Thank you for very appropriately laughing. It made no sense. And it you know, I don’t wanna rehash all of that situation. But it was it was really absurd, and it was heartbreaking, and it was for Ronald, I mean, that sent him into a spiral where he has suicidal ideation. I mean, this you could imagine, someone with bipolar disorder, he’s getting situated in a new town with a new job, he’s got a new therapist, a new apartment, you know, and, like, trying to adjust to this new life and he gets the door, closed on him. He really started to spiral and yet he showed up every week and did the rehearsals, and he did the final performances. And then he sued them for discrimination, you know, for a couple of other things. but he’s food. He settled out of court after several months. And during that time, I left the organization as well. And during that time where things were kind of going through mediation, and we were both in bet in between jobs showing say unemployed. He came to me, and he said, you know, I’m I’m not I I can’t go back to sending out resumes and applying for jobs, in part because his story about getting fired and then doing on the basis of discrimination have been picked up by all the newspapers. I mean, picked up by the AP. It was in the papers in Boston, and it went beyond Vermont. And he said, you know, that that they’ve effectively shut down my career in terms of what it what it has always looked like. So I need to start a new orchestra for people like me. I wanna start a bipolar orchestra. And I kinda took a deep breath. Then he said, will you do this with me? And I said, okay. Let’s talk about what that what that means. But what does that what does that look like? And that was, you know, that would that would succeed for what has now become Me2/ and what has been this great source of joy in our lives over the last you know, 11 or 12 years now since we since we launched, but we eventually decided what that means is that we wanna have an orchestra for people that is non auditioned that doesn’t require fees. We wanna remove the barriers for participation, and we want to heavily recruit people who are living with a mental health diagnosis. So that’s how it started. Oh, and there’s somewhere Ronald and I started today. Did I forget to mention that? Yes. I did I did say, okay. We’ll do we’ll do this, but, you know, let’s this date too because we have been good friends for for quite a while, but, yeah, I was pretty much interested in more than that from day one.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:10]:
That’s so cool.
Caroline Whiddon [00:30:12]:
It was it’s pretty cool, I gotta say. So cool. So
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:16]:
when you’re starting something like this and I’ve never I’ve never started an orchestra. I have to imagine most people have never started an orchestra. But if you’re going to do things like remove the barriers financially for people to participate, you’ve gotta be coming up with money somewhere. Did the fact that this whole situation with the lawsuit and all of the rest of it was out there make that more difficult? Or did it maybe actually make it easier because of what you were trying to do? Or Did it not really have an effect much at all?
Caroline Whiddon [00:30:49]:
That’s an interesting question. I mean, you know, it’s never easy. Right? Fundraising is never really the an easy thing. And in terms of our experience in the early days with Me2/, I think a lot of people were kind of confused like what do you mean you’re gonna have a mental health orchestra like it just it took a it took people a while to kind of wrap their heads around that. So frankly, we were broke for, you know, 2 or 3 years. And both of our sets of parents were, like, underwriting us, yes, there was some settlement money from the lawsuit that we, you know, helped us survive for a while. But Yeah. We relied on some government programs. I mean, it was really, really tough. And, eventually, You know, I have started an orchestra before. My mom and I back in Georgia had started this youth orchestra in Columbus, Georgia. So I knew all about establishing yourself as a 501c3 nonprofit. I knew about building a board you know, how to do the kind of the basic fundraising tasks and all that. So we just implemented it, and it’s just taken time. And you know, now looking back after 12 years of this work, like, it’s been incredible to me the way it’s grown. In some ways, it’s felt so painfully slow. But in other ways, I look at it, and I’m like, wow. We’ve, you know, we’ve accomplished so much over the years. But it was difficult in the beginning. For sure. I mean, we didn’t we didn’t have, like, a big lump sum of money to to start the program with, and and yet we still felt like we can’t charge people money to be in this thing. I mean, first of all, the whole I We didn’t know if anybody was gonna come to that first rehearsal anyway. Like, really, are people gonna come out and say, sure. Hey. I’m depressed. I wanna join your orchestra. And, yeah, they did. Like I mean, that was kind of the amazing thing was that, you know, we started getting emails The first two emails that I got from people who were expressing an interest in this the first rehearsal for this orca for the Me2/ Orchestra in Burlington, Vermont were from young men who had been in the youth orchestra A few years prior, and now that they were in college or just out of college, they have recently been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Wow. And they said Caroline, remember me? I knew you, you know, a few years ago in the in the youth orchestra. Yeah. I got bipolar disorder, and I’m really interested in what you and Mr. Braunstein are doing. Could I, you know, send me some more information? I just thought, you know, man, like, they miss they miss the boat at the youth orchestra. Like, I, you know, I remember trying to sort of say to them, like, Are you kidding me? Like, we we’ve been ever backwards in this in our setting to accommodate and and support and love our students who are struggling, whether it’s, you know, ADHD or learning about their sexuality or, you know, anorexia. I mean, there were so many examples of kids that we saw who were growing up and needed their adult the adults around them to support them. And yet when a grown man in his fifties said, I need some accommodations. I need support. People said, Nope. Forget it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:38]:
I mean, what what’s that about? Right? There’s a thing about that though. Right? Like, once you’re a grown up, you’re supposed to just have it all together, and that’s — Yeah. — so ridiculous because how many of us have it all together? I’m pretty sure it’s nobody. I mean, I suspect that Dalai Lama doesn’t have it all together and probably neither does the pope. And, you know, most of the people that you think would have it all together. don’t because — Yeah. — we’re all human. But, yeah, we have this weird idea that if you’re an adult, you’re supposed to be able to put on the mask and be what you’re supposed to be. Right. And yeah.
Caroline Whiddon [00:35:15]:
Nope. It doesn’t work. that way. And, boy, me too. I mean, we’ve just seen it over and over again. Like, over the years, if people are so so kind of gratefully surprised to walk into this room and and be surrounded by people and not really know it first who has a diagnosis and who doesn’t because it’s a, you know, it’s a mixed group of people. It was very important to us from the beginning that we include both people with and without a diagnosis. And I’ll tell you is because I had that voice in my head of my of my staff members saying to me, we think this guy has a mental illness, and we don’t know how to work with that. Mhmm. And I thought I mean, that’s first of all, I just couldn’t I couldn’t understand that. It was it was such a ridiculous thing to say. But then I thought, you know, for so many people, they might be thinking that But it’s just because they don’t know that they’re already working with people who have mental illness. I mean, I don’t care where you are in your church in your doctor’s office, in your office, in your family reunion. Like, you are Communicating, working with people who have mental illness. It’s the stigma that keeps people from talking about it. So it just seemed like such a such a ridiculous statement, but I thought, you know, here’s the chance. If we if we were really wanna make it our mission to erase stigma, we’ve gotta have this beautifully integrated community of musicians where people who don’t have a diagnosis or sitting right next to someone who does have, you know, trauma or a dissociative disorder, schizophrenia, and their working together. They’re making something great together. And I think, you know, there’s a real temptation when people look at our Me2/ movement and it’s easy to kind of say, oh great, this must be having such an impact on your musicians with bipolar disorder and depression and anxiety. And I kind of sometimes feel like I have to also push people to consider the fact that it’s having probably just as much of an impact on the people who never knew any or knew that they knew anyone with depression or bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. You know, I’ve had people say, being in this orchestra and making new friends living with, you know, these various diagnoses, it’s made me a different kind of teacher It’s made me approach my family members in a different way. I I read the news in a different way. You know, I I I just I’m I’m constantly taking in streams of information about you know, the latest headlines and stories about people living with bipolar disorder schizophrenia and really processing that in a way that that involves greater understanding about the realities of living well with the diagnosis because the reality of most people don’t know that you can live well with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. They, you know, they think it’s kind of you get a diagnosis, and if that’s, you know, trying to stay out of trouble.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:41]:
Right. try to survive and try not — Try to survive. — try not to get into trouble. Yeah.
Caroline Whiddon [00:38:47]:
Yeah. So so, you know, it’s it’s it’s really great to be making music with people who are are willing to share their stories of living well. with a diagnosis because we never hear those stories otherwise. Right? I mean, nobody’s writing a newspaper article or, you know, doing a TV show about people who, you know, the lawyer with schizophrenia who’s winning cases and has a great home life and multiple degrees and you know, hear the good stories. You only hear when somebody is experiencing their worst crisis in just, you know, a catastrophic way, and that’s such a small and rare occurrence, such a small percentage of cases. And mental illness isn’t constant. I mean, it’s fluid. You know? People have good day broad bad days, and we try to make room for all of that within our orchestras and ensembles. Within our new chorus, I mean, we’re expanding and trying to include more people. And it’s just you know, I can’t imagine I I thought I had the best job in the world when I was working with kids with the youth orchestra. And now I’m like, yeah. You know, that that was a great job for a long time, but I’ll take this. I because I think I’m a better person now. I’m a more well rounded person. You know? I I think I was a pretty decent human being before. But I I’ve now made room gladly in my life for so many people with such an array of stories and experiences And that just makes me a richer person.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:33]:
Sure. Right? Yeah. Absolutely. Anytime you can do something like that. It’s never a bad thing.
Caroline Whiddon [00:40:41]:
I have no idea what the last question was that you asked me. I’m just I just take off.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:46]:
on these days. You’re just absolutely fine. It’s all good. But I do keep wondering, like, you said that people showed up when you didn’t when you weren’t sure that that that they would. Like, how did you get the word out? And how many people actually came that first time? And was it mostly people who did have a diagnosis? or was there a a kind of a balance?
Caroline Whiddon [00:41:08]:
Yeah. So we, you know, we do what everybody does. You know, we kind of announce in the calendar listings, and we sent out a press release. And, of course, in Vermont, it was kind of kind of big news because they’d all everybody read a or heard about how Ronald had been fired from this rather high profile job there. So when we kind of regrouped and announced our new initiative, there was there were articles about it. And so the word spread, and, you know, I created a little bitty email list and mailing list you know, cobble together from my various contacts from having been in the state for, you know, many years at that point. But we kind of argue about it now. Ronald and I at because we didn’t take great notes in the beginning. I say there were ten people at the first rehearsal. He tends to think there were maybe eight people. It was small. But they those people showed up, and those people had stories. and they were happy to be there. And even from that very first rehearsal, it was about 5050. in terms of people living with a diagnosis and people without. And that’s been a really interesting thing to me is that over the years, that that ratio has kinda stayed the same. I mean, we’ve always made it our policy. We don’t ask. Nobody has to share. People are different periods in their lives. They have different employment issues, you know, where it may not be safe to share something so we don’t push that at all, but it is amazing how I think how kind of happy to relieve people are when they know they’re in a safe space. Mhmm. it really makes them want to open up. So I in in many ways, I feel like Rob will not and I are kind of the keepers of of that information for both you know, for the people that are willing to share it with the with the orchestras strengths, sometimes with the audiences. But then a lot of people who just kinda share it with us, and we keep that close and treasure the fact that people trust us with it. But yeah. So it’s been about 5050 in terms of people with or without a diagnosis in all the groups and in all three of the states, that we’re operating now in Vermont, Boston, Massachusetts, and Manchester, New Hampshire. And the group grew to, you know, probably twenty people by the end of the 1st year, but Man, you know, the 1st 2 or 3 years, it it was tough. I mean, we eventually grew to kind of a chamber orchestra size, you know, where he could do a heightened symphony and we pretty much had parts covered and that kind of thing. But the same thing happened when we when we launched in Boston 3 year 3 or 4 years later, we thought, oh, it’s such a big city and there’s all these beautiful schools. It’ll be a much bigger beginning. Nope. 8 or 10 people exactly the same cycle. Wow. Same thing in Manchester, New Hampshire. You know, I I I think I mean, We’ve tried to kinda crack the nut on that one. Like, what why is that? What are we not doing? What can we do differently that would that would get more people through the door when you first start something. But, you know, I again, I think it’s kind of getting into community and kind of educating people about what it means. you know, people kind of hear med music for mental health, and they’re like, what what is that? And the truth is you walk into one of our rehearsals, and you like a rehearsal. Mhmm. Just any kind of rehearsal. It’s just that, you know, during the break? You might catch people talking about therapy or their meds or you might not, but Beethoven is Beethoven. Well, we’re rehearsing. Right. You know, it’s for a lot of people, it’s the time and they gratefully don’t have to think about their diagnosis. You know, leave it at the door. You’ve entered a stigma free zone. focus on the music, know that you’re being supported. Like, that’s the message, whether it’s eight people in the rehearsal or sixty.
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:31]:
Yeah. And I’m wondering too, like, I think that there is something really powerfully curative about music, but I’m also you know, I’m I’m kind of imagining all of this and thinking, how much of the effect of this program on the people in it is the music And how much is the environment that you’ve created? And, of course, then there’s also the fact that they’re around a population that they might not interact with, you know, there’s more going on in there than that. There’s so many layers.
Caroline Whiddon [00:46:11]:
Right? I mean, I feel like you could just peel back the onion. constantly. And on top of everything you just mentioned, it’s kind of the interior layer of the orchestra, but then the impact on the audience members. Like, what’s happening there? You know, how much and we’ve tried to actually measure kind of the impact that we have in stigma reduction in kind of the way people think about mental illness with their audiences. But I I do feel like that’s one thing that we haven’t We haven’t done yet really well in terms of just really zeroing in on impact. on on gauging our result, you know, our our ability to change people’s minds about what it means to live with a diagnosis we have so much anecdotal evidence. And you mentioned kind of the science of music and how, you know, there there probably is someone who could who I’m sure there’s someone who could tell you how playing bronze affects your brain and makes you healthier. And, you know, Ronald and I just kinda said at the beginning of this journey, look, we’re classical musicians. We’re not therapists. We’ve been in a lot of therapy, we’re gonna lead this with our hearts. And I keep thinking, hopefully, some someday somebody’s gonna kinda swoop in and say, I’d like to study you. I’d like to really kind of I’d like to peel back the layers and maybe put some science to all this. hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, we’re just gonna keep doing what we do and collect our collect our heartwarming stories and, you know, wait for the maybe for the science or for the quantitative stuff to to follow-up hopefully soon. Yeah. And, I mean, as interesting as the quantitative stuff is. I think the qualitative stuff is really where it’s at. So — I mean, that’s what I’m digging. That’s what I’m loving. Yeah. Absolutely.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:10]:
And you do have so many great stories that, you know, you made a documentary, which is amazing, both that you made it, and the documentary is amazing.
Caroline Whiddon [00:48:20]:
How did that come about? You know, it’s funny. We try to perform in a lot of nontraditional venues to include Prisons. You know, we play in correctional facilities. And I was scooting around online one day looking at various things and I somehow came across this documentary about the world’s only chorus in a men’s prison that is allowed to leave the prison to perform. And I just immediately, you know, like, went down the rabbit hole. Like, this is such a cool thing. And so there was an email for the producer of the film, and I thought, you know, I’ve gotta see the film. The trailer was riveting. So I sent I sent her an email And I guess, you know, I had my email signature there and a link to our website and kinda said, you know, we we we have performed in prisons. I’d love to get copy of this film because I think it would, you know, inspire us and maybe inform our work with the prisons. And she wrote me back, and she said, I just was kinda checking out what you’re doing online. Could we talk? And she called me and she said has anybody ever documented your work. And I’m like, yeah. No. No. No. And yeah. So it started that I mean, it was it started by accident. It was me saying, I love what I love the story of this this prison chorus and catching Margie Freedman of the film’s co-directors on the phone from her home in in California and her just saying, Wow. You know, I’ve got I’ve got a friend, Barbara Mulderwellen, and she and I are looking to coproduce another film. We’d love to do social justice, important stories. And I think Me2/ could be exactly what we’ve been looking for. And, yes, yes, and they spent 3 years kind of flying in and out of Burlington, Vermont and Boston, Massachusetts. And following some of the musicians, you know, in and out of rehearsals and a lot of time in our small apartment and in our car and discussing the stories. And, yeah,it has been really fabulous to have that that part of the growth of Me2/ documented in that way. And still being shared. I mean, we’re still doing screenings, like, all over the country with college campuses with, you know, mental health groups kind of share it’s continuing to share stories and and that that beautiful film. Yeah. It a totally amazing film. And
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:07]:
I know it feels unfair to tell people that they should watch the documentary for the stories I think we should tell a story or two if if there’s, you know, one or two that come to mind that you’d like to share.
Caroline Whiddon [00:51:22]:
Sure. Sure. Well, the film is called orchestrating change, and it it takes a pretty good dive into Ronald’s history, you know, his journey through Juilliard and and conducting through Europe and then founding Me2/. but I think also part of what’s so compelling is the way that film filmmakers followed some of the key musicians in the orchestra. one of the musicians who’s featured is Dylan. And Dylan at that time was a a basis in the Burlington based, Me2/ Orchestra. And we see Dylan playing in rehearsals, And then we kinda follow Dylan as he is hospitalized and actually goes into back into the correctional facility. He got into trouble. Dylan has you know, to this day, has ongoing issues with substance misuse and you know, not always making the best choices about who he’s hanging out with. And so in the film, we see him actually getting released from prison and coming back to rehearsal. And I was so glad that they were there, that the filmmakers were there to to film that scene where he he comes back into the rehearsal because, you know, I used to kinda beat myself up over the fact that we couldn’t we can’t really keep our musicians from getting sick or or maybe landing in a correctional facility. You know, it’s 1 night a week. There’s a limit to the impact we can have on their lives. And I felt really guilty, you know, like somehow we let him down that this happened to him, you know, and that it’s happened to other people where they’re in the hospital and whatever. Like, what more could we have done? And now I think more about how we bring people back, how we become the safe landing place. And I was so glad that they filmed Dylan coming back for the orchestra. and the warmth of the musicians who were so happy to see him. And, you know, we all learned so much through that process about what it needs to kind of reenter after being in a facility where you haven’t been able to be hugged in months. You know, the the the toll that that takes on a person again, you know, peeling back that onion, there’s just so many layers to what we’re all learning about each other, learning about our mental health systems, our correctional systems, who knew or castral work could could take take us, you know, into these into these kinds of discussions, but Yeah. So I I think that, you know, that journey in the film being able to follow Dylan kind of, you know, during the good times of the bad was really was was very important, you know, a story that needed to be told. And we also see Mark, who’s one of our clarinets, who yeah. He His mental health deteriorated over the course of filming, and he ended up being hospitalized. And, you know, the as the filmmakers always say they could have made kind of a fluff film that just showed the great side of the orchestra, and and to Merrick’s credit to Dylan’s credit, you know, they they said No. It’s okay. You know? Tell the real story because otherwise it, you know, it kinda discredits the whole film. Like, we want people to know that, yeah, sure. We’re gonna have bad days. We’re gonna have bad periods, but we’ll come back. You know? We’ll get back on our feet. And, yeah, I mean, I I’m just so glad that that you found the the film compelling and that we’ve gotten such good feedback about it. you know, honestly, for for Ronald, for me, for the musicians, we’re just kinda doing what we do, and it was just really, like, so fortunate that these incredible women, these filmmakers in in LA said, yeah, we think this is worth documenting and and eventually got it on PBS. It’s
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:45]:
incredible. Yeah. Is it streaming anywhere that people can find it on their own?
Caroline Whiddon [00:55:51]:
You know, I there is a site where I think you can pay, like, a small fee to stream it now if you go to the website orchestrating change, the film .com. All the information is there about streaming, about, you know, purchasing a DVD, all of that So, yeah, that’s the best source for information.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:13]:
Well, I’ll put that link in the show notes because I really hope that people will go watch it. I think that it’s eye opening just to watch it even though I know that’s not the same as actually participating in it. It’s just I don’t know if uplifting is quite the right word because, like, you say, it’s not it’s not fluffy and everything is wonderful. And yet, there’s just something about it that is so human and so deep. And I hate to keep saying amazing, but it’s the word that keeps coming to mind.
Caroline Whiddon [00:56:47]:
Oh, I felt so human and so deep. I mean, that is yeah. That That’s beautiful to hear. It is. I mean, you just it’s it’s something that
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:57]:
yeah. I would never have thought. that it would exist in the first place. But then to watch the story, see Ronald’s story, and see how how that turned into this is just you know, fascinating and and inspiring also in the sense of, I hope that somebody who’s watching it will come up with an idea to do their own thing that goes out and does Yeah. Something that also has this kind of impact just because — Yeah. — you watch it and you think, hey. there are other things that we could do, you know, that I hadn’t thought about before that maybe, you know, somebody can start something else, you know, a different kind of program, but something that that has the same kind of intent. you know, that there there is music that you don’t have to be a total perfectionist who never gets nervous and never never struggles with anything in order to perform, you know, in that area.
Caroline Whiddon [00:57:55]:
Well and, you know, one of the things that we talk about when we do screenings of the film, and we have these panel discussions is this idea that we we’ve somehow, you know, managed to create a stigma free zone in the in our orchestras, in our chorus. But why can’t we create sticker free zones in other places? You know, how is this idea take it and apply it to wherever it’s needed, what, you know, your knitting circle, your book club, your you know, whatever. Like, take it to the places where you exist, including your office. Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:28]:
Right. I I mean, it becomes so clear that it’s, like, The stigma is really not necessary. Cool.
Caroline Whiddon [00:58:34]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:36]:
Yeah. You know, the stigma comes from places that aren’t helpful, and it’s just not necessary.
Caroline Whiddon [00:58:43]:
We talk a lot about the power of our signage. You know, we put up signs when we perform, when we rehearsed, let’s say you are now entering a stigma free zone. And the musicians talk about how that’s you know, there’s kind of two sides to that. Like, one is that you see that sign. and you remember you can relax. You’re in a safe space. But you also remember that that’s an expectation that you’re gonna also take care of the people around you. So it’s like the gut check on 2 different levels. And you know, at first, it Ronald and I were kind of modeling the behavior that we kind of wanted to see in other people. And now yeah. I mean, for years now, I’ve seen that just modeled right back at us. You know, it’s not like we have to kinda set the example. People know what that means when they are in a me to rehearsal or performance. And, you know, I I just feel like, yeah. Why don’t we see that sign in other places? Yeah. Gosh. What if what if church was a stigma free zone? Can you imagine that an I’ll say that. You know, if someone I I I grew up down south where church was it was really churchy, and You know, I think a lot of my anxiety disorder, honestly, was was kinda kicked off by some of the stuff that I learned in in my church growing up, and Boy, it was not a stigma free zone. More recently, I’ve been in physician’s offices with my husband again, who has bipolar disorder, and they were not stigma free zones. You know, I’ve seen I’ve seen him get talked down to. by physicians because of and clearly, it’s because of his diagnosis or because he presents as someone who is his brain is not typical like mine. He’s an atypical thinker and You know? It’s when someone kind of goes to tell me the information rather than telling him as a patient. or as the person that they’re serving. And it’s yeah. This is a stigma free zone. Let’s do better. You know, it needs to be said in so many weddings.
Nancy Norbeck [01:01:06]:
Yeah. And I I feel like it’s just there are so many excuses that we have to forget that other people are people. You know, whether it’s mental health or you know, different religion or somebody who’s been in prison or whatever it is. The invisible condition. Right. Right. In addition to all of the visible ones that we also use as excuses. Exactly.
Caroline Whiddon [01:01:34]:
Well, yes. Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [01:01:37]:
— in the headlights every day, and anymore. Every single day. Yeah. It’s like there are so many excuses to just forget the fundamental truth that people are people.
Caroline Whiddon [01:01:49]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, we all have bad days, I’m certainly, I can be I can have a shorter fuse on some days. But I like to think that, you know, if needed, I I will remember, you know, my core humanity and express that in a in a good way And yeah. So that’s just that’s something we’re working on constantly through through music through bringing the stiffer set of people together with a common goal, play in music, and then also listening to each other’s stories and practicing Being good humans.
Nancy Norbeck [01:02:33]:
Yeah. I mean, I I think that that is amazing and the fact that you have managed to start 3 different orchestras. Is there gonna be a 4th? Will they be everywhere?
Caroline Whiddon [01:02:46]:
So I’m sitting down this summer with my strategic planning committee for my board of directors, and I I won’t rule out a 4th. You know, as we look to the next 3 years, it’s awfully tempting to say, you know, how do we just continue to expand in especially in New England, you know, where — Mhmm. We hear from people all the time. that that want some sort of need to program close to where they are, and it’s it’s a bit of a challenge to to duplicate without us having, you know, funding and being kind of on-site and and and that sort of thing. But, you know, right now, I’m thinking our are burgeoning a little orchestra in Manchester, New Hampshire. Once that has gotten just a little bit more traction, you know, in a year or 2, it would be really easy to do what we did in in Vermont where we hired a new conductor, a new manager, People who are so talented and so just connected to the mission and vision of this group we could put a team in place in Manchester, and who knows? Maybe Ronald and I start hitting the road down to Rhode Island every week. and starting there, or maybe it’s maybe that that next startup is another chorus. You know? We’ve gotten so much joy this spring from from just having a a kind of a short startup season of of our first coal program and seeing how that really you know, that that eliminates yet another layer of accessibility because you don’t have to know how to play the bassoon or the show or or the flute. You just walk in because everybody has a voice. So, like, that is just bringing us incredible joy to see to see even more people having access to music or mental health. and I think that’s gonna be a really important part of our vision for the future.
Nancy Norbeck [01:04:47]:
Yeah. And as somebody who’s been a coral singer her whole life. I’m so happy that you have Cora.
Caroline Whiddon [01:04:52]:
Well, it just makes sense. Right? I mean, it had to be. it had to be. And we had to delay because of COVID. I mean, we were planning to do this a few years ago. But yeah. Now you can do, you know, big coral Symphony’s and things like that too. Oh my gosh. — a 504. So — Don’t even get me started. Yeah. Yeah. It’s gonna be so much fun. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [01:05:12]:
Oh, I’m so excited for where this is going, and I’m just also so happy that you exist in the first place. Oh, thank you so much.
Caroline Whiddon [01:05:22]:
It’s, you know, it’s a good place to be. We really we all love the work. We really do.
Nancy Norbeck [01:05:29]:
Yeah. Well, I hope you’ll keep us all posted on on what you’re doing if you start a fourth one or start another chorus or, you know, branch out in other ways that people who are farther away could can find a a place there because I think it’s I think it’s fabulous.
Caroline Whiddon [01:05:45]:
So — Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, There’s always info on our website, on our social media channels. Like, people could always keep up keep up with us, but Yeah. As I said, we’re kinda gearing up for strategic planning, and this is this is what I love, like dreaming. You know? It’s when you really get the down and go, you know what? What are your ideas? What how can we have an even bigger impact, engage even more people, and really, you know, in our own small way try to change the world for the better. That’s exciting.
Nancy Norbeck [01:06:19]:
Definitely doing that part. So — Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming and sharing this story with me today because it’s ugh. I keep saying the same things, but just because it’s true, it’s great.
Caroline Whiddon [01:06:34]:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It’s so much fun to talk about it and to kinda revisit the path. So I appreciate having the opportunity to do that.
Nancy Norbeck [01:06:44]:
That’s our show. Thanks so much to my guest, Caroline Whiddon, and to you. Please leave a review for this episode. There’s a link right in your podcast app. And in it, tell us about a time when being fully seen made a difference to you. If you’ve enjoyed our conversation, I hope you’ll share it with a friend. Thanks so much. If this epic sewed resonated with you, don’t forget to get in touch on any of my social platforms or even via email at nancy@fycuriosity.com. Tell me what you loved. And if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now and you haven’t yet signed up my free email series on 6 of the most common creative beliefs that are messing you up. Please check it out. It’ll untangle those myths and help you get rolling again. You can find it at fycuriosity.com, and there’s also a link right in your podcast app. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like, Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach me Thanks.