What’s it like to doubt the beliefs of the strict religious community you grew up with? What’s it like to leave? Where do you find the courage and strength to make that choice, and to adapt to your new life? Director Scott Homan and writer and musician Ryan Sutter have lived these questions, and collaborated to tell the story in the new documentary, Witness Underground. The film focuses on Ryan’s love of music and the musical relationships within the Jehovah’s Witness community that sustained him as a teen and gave him a safe place to land when he left. We talk about all these questions and the process of making the film, which is now running a Kickstarter to fund distribution to popular streaming services.
Episode breakdown:
[00:05:16] Scott: Wisconsin arts program shaped career in film.
[00:10:19] Change your environment for personal growth.
[00:14:10] Ryan: Creative kids form band with makeshift instruments.
[00:17:39] Creativity and emotional release through music.
[00:26:17] Other connections transcended religion, influencing change.
[00:30:07] Scott reconnects with Ryan.
[00:32:56] Ryan’s wrestling with beliefs through writing, recording music, and live performance = enhanced creative thinking.
[00:40:22] How authoritarian regimes suppress artists.
[00:44:37] “Coming out.”
[00:50:51] Seeing life through Ryan’s eyes.
[00:57:20] Amazing connection to music; influential, undiscovered collection.
[01:03:08] Ryan: Therapy, new albums, and a goal: move on and heal.
[01:09:26] Music connects people in amazing ways.
[01:15:05] Scott: Filmmaker’s struggle with distribution, potential exploitation.
[01:19:24] Kickstarter campaign funding distribution of the film, which has amazing perks including music and written work.
Please leave a review and in it, tell us how your creativity has given you strength when you’ve needed it most.
Show links
Witness Underground’s website/Kickstarter
XJW | Coming Out series on YouTube
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Transcript: Witness Underground/Scott Homan/Ryan Sutter
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Before we get started, I want to let you know about a way to hang out with me online. If there’s one thing I know for sure, it’s that when ordinary people engage their creativity, they connect with their joy and their deepest selves come to life. I’ve started a newsletter called the spark.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:36]:
It’s a place for me to experiment with my writing and share it with an audience and also a place to get to know you better. I’m using the Substack platform because it offers some really cool ways to connect with readers, including comments and chats. I’d love for you to join me as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage. Because it’s an experiment, you never know what sort of thing I might share on this park, and honestly, neither do I. Could be my thoughts on something I’ve noticed recently, a poem, a response to a photo or a piece of music, or just something completely unexpected. It’s always accessible, always personal, and usually has something to do with creativity. The spark is where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners too, so you really want to be there to hear what’s happening. It is totally free to subscribe, and you can find a link to the spark in your podcast app.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:26]:
So sign up today. I can’t wait to see you there. What’s it like to doubt the beliefs of the strict religious community you grew up with? What’s it like to leave? Where do you find the courage and strength to make that choice and to adapt to your new life. Director Scott Homan and writer and musician Ryan Sutter have lived these questions and collaborated to tell the story in the new documentary Witness Underground. The film focuses on Ryan’s love of music and the musical relationships within the Jehovah’s Witness community that sustained him as a teen and gave him a safe place to land when he left. We talk about all these questions and the process of making the film, which is now running a Kickstarter to fund distribution to popular streaming services. I think you’ll find a lot to think about in this conversation with Scott Homan and Ryan Sutter. Scott and Ryan, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Scott Homan [00:02:24]:
Thanks Thanks for having us, Nancy. Really appreciate it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:26]:
So good to meet you. You too. So I start everybody out with the same question, Which is were you a creative kid or did you discover your creative side later on? So I think, Scott, we’ll start with you.
Scott Homan [00:02:40]:
I had some Experiences with creativity. My my mom was a saxophone player, so she got me into band early in 5th grade. So there was that, which is a nice intro to, like, how to read music and speak the language of music at a basic level and painting. And there was always some kind of and cooking even. She’s a Amazing baker and cook. So I learned a lot from in those ways. And my dad’s like a creative, engineer mind where we’d, like, Sketch something on the table and we go weld it in the garage and build, like, a machine or, like, change a take an engine off of a different machine and, Create something else, and so you’re always kind of like, well, how could we use this thing and make it? And so there’s a lot of that kind of inventive Mindset in flourishing in that house growing up. My brother played drums, and my little brother played drums.
Scott Homan [00:03:25]:
Like so I had, like, music around, and I played guitar early on. So Making music, doing covers, and creating new things and noise, and and whatever we wanted was a big part of our growing up experience.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:36]:
That’s really cool. I love that you mentioned your dad’s engineering. My dad’s an engineer, and I think they don’t get enough credit for being creative people because it’s like they have practical applications, so that must not be creative because it’s not an art, but it really is.
Scott Homan [00:03:50]:
Yeah. It’s like applied physics. Like, well, how this is how the universe works. Let’s try to adapt to that. Let’s extract energy from this thing or something. It’s really interesting.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:59]:
It’s really cool. So it sounds like it was a a pretty creatively supportive household.
Scott Homan [00:04:04]:
To the extent that and I guess Ryan and both have a similar thing with this. My My parents ended up buying the house next door when the neighbor died and the family sold the property. My parents just wanted to, like, get more property, but it had a house on it. And they were like, yeah. You guys can use it whatever you want. We made a we thought we were making music, so we put all our instruments. They were happy to have a place for us to get rid of the drum set and the guitar And the distortion, and and so we went over there, and we, like, invited all of our friends. So we had this, like, music studio throughout our entire teenage years in high school, And it went on for a couple more years.
Scott Homan [00:04:34]:
We end up living in the studio, but it was like the whole county’s worth of musicians had their music music equipment there. We recorded albums there, and it was a lot of fun. We threw parties and Hosted live at music events.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:45]:
That is so awesome. That must have been like your own little private paradise.
Scott Homan [00:04:49]:
It was. It was great, and they never really bothered, and, they were happy to have us be gone. So I have 5 kids, like, half of them are over there making noise It is like a dream situation for them.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:01]:
Yeah. We don’t have to listen to
Ryan Sutter [00:05:02]:
the drums. Would have loved that. The drum set was right below the bedroom in our
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:09]:
Oh, man. So then how did you go from music into doing film work?
Scott Homan [00:05:16]:
Another special thing about Wisconsin where I grew up was that they had a really, really well paid, arts program throughout the whole state, Throughout the eighties nineties, especially. So we had a documentary film program, a photography darkroom program as a part of an elective you could take, And, like, we could we had all access pass to get out of any other class to do documentaries. And so that was, like, a lot of the guys a lot of my friends that did that with same time as me, including my little brother later. Kept on making made it into a business using film because it, like, created created this incredible open Exploration of the medium of film and media video. And so when I I end up end up going to photography school after that and worked in TV news, camera, and audio. So, like, I had this break where I went to engineering school as well and did intellectual engineering. And then at some point, I was like, I love storytelling. If I’m gonna, like, if I’m gonna do whatever what what is the thing I wanna do with my whole life? Like, if I if I can focus on that thing, I went back to focusing on storytelling and documentary, especially, and music videos.
Scott Homan [00:06:20]:
Like, music’s a big part of my storytelling. I think I realized that musicians like, I’m I play music, and I write my own music. I used to more. But I realized, like, most people that are doing that are really, really good at it naturally, and for me, it was always felt like a hobby that had, like, a ceiling that kept hitting.
Ryan Sutter [00:06:37]:
Mhmm.
Scott Homan [00:06:37]:
I didn’t really care as much, but I about capturing other musicians who are amazing and and respect the hell out of music and musicians. So I focus on telling their stories and working with musicians, And, like, that’s a deep tie for me is the music in in film. I have another film that came out that came out a couple years ago about a music scene to live in Vietnam where I kind of explored music and and documentary there deeply.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:02]:
That must have been an interesting setting for that.
Scott Homan [00:07:06]:
Yeah. I think you could go anywhere in the world where it’s like a different culture
Ryan Sutter [00:07:09]:
and
Scott Homan [00:07:10]:
just be, like, fascinated freshly fascinated with humanity because it’s totally different culture and do similar, but I kind of was surprised that there was, like, a really interesting international music scene in that capital city of, like, 6,000,000 people. It was kinda small, but also, like, it was easy access to everybody, and everybody was so stoked to have someone making a video for them. And, they became my best friends there, so That was like a fun kind of go back to my roots kind of situation. Back in high school, I was making documentaries and music videos for my friends and my own band. I was doing that again as an adult, but, like, taking it more seriously.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:45]:
Did did you deliberately choose Hanoi for that reason, or did you discover the music scene after you got there?
Scott Homan [00:07:50]:
I discovered it after I got there. I think I was kind of desperate for, like, the feeling of home, and I Found this music venue called Hanoi Rock City, kind of like Detroit Rock City. Mhmm. Playing off that name. If you can maybe Ryan can tell me where that is. Is that a kiss reference? But
Ryan Sutter [00:08:09]:
I I believe it might be. Yeah.
Scott Homan [00:08:12]:
Yeah. Like, maybe one of their albums or one of their songs. I think it’s one of their songs, Detroit Rock City. But yeah. That that scene was like a in in independent artist scene, And, to live in a country where culture where the language is different, the culture is totally different, and it’s like, you feel like an outsider to find a A music scene that brought people from all over, like, 60 different countries represented in this one place. That felt like home. So I spent a lot of time there, and I met a lot of my friends there.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:40]:
That’s great. I always think that travel is a a great asset to creativity in no small part because it gets you out of your normal environment, But, you know, it also just it seeing things through that different lens, I think, opens Something up inside your head that wasn’t open before by default probably.
Scott Homan [00:09:01]:
Yeah. Something that really came was very present when I was living in Vietnam. It was 5 years, and it never really went away. It was I’m different, and there’s nothing I can do to change that. Whereas, like, most part of society, you’re kind of spending a lot of time trying to conform or fit in.
Ryan Sutter [00:09:17]:
Mhmm. And,
Scott Homan [00:09:17]:
like, no matter how hard you try, you look different, you dress different, Talk different. You care about very different things, and you have no connection to the holidays or the the the things that are normal there, the normal trends. And you can try to, like, Adapt to some degree, but they will always see you as sort of an other.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:33]:
Right.
Scott Homan [00:09:33]:
And when when you are an other and there’s nothing you can do about it, it’s like, well, I’m gonna lean into that because There’s nothing you can do. I might as well be the most extreme version of Scott possible. And then then it’s, like, it’s almost like a you kind of become your, I don’t know. This powerful version of yourself. Well, that’s how I reacted to it anyways.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:52]:
That’s really interesting, you know, because most of us don’t have that opportunity to become the most extreme versions of ourselves and might not even recognize those opportunities if if we did for a while. So I think that’s really, really cool. There is that that whole nobody knows me here. I can be whoever I wanna be because nobody’s expecting anything from me. You know, they’re not expecting me to be a certain way or to do a certain thing or, you know, whatever, and that’s that’s really freeing.
Scott Homan [00:10:19]:
Mhmm. It’s something that I’ve recommended to a lot of people because I have a podcast as well, The Witness Underground Podcast, and I have a lot of guests on and there or I and I’ve also had guests on a lot of those kinds of shows, music or leading a faith group and that our film talks about, but they always they often ask, like, what advice could you give to someone who’s going through that right now? And often my advice is change your physical environment, and that it’s can’t it’s not easy for everyone to do that. It’s it’s actually a really difficult decision even for me as a Single, like, 20 something. Like, go to another city. I don’t know how to do that. That’s, like, seems impossible. I have no network anywhere. How do you do it? Reality is, like, Once I’ve done it, it was like, oh, there are jobs everywhere.
Scott Homan [00:10:59]:
There are apartments everywhere. There’s grocery stores everywhere on the planet. You can actually do it anywhere. It just sounds daunting if you’ve never done it, and and you don’t have to go to another content or load the other side of the planet. You can actually Go to the next county over to the other small town if that’s where you happen to be, and it would have the same kind of effect in that no one expects anything of you, so you can Do and be who you you can reinvent yourself or be the person you want to be.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:26]:
Yeah. It’s it’s something that I think we don’t think is is possible, so we don’t even register the idea unless somebody puts it into our heads. You know? Or we just happen to land in that right set of circumstances where it’s like, oh, hey. Wait. I can do something different. I can be somebody different. You know? Yeah. So yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:48]:
It’s it’s a it’s a powerful thing. So, Ryan, how about you? Were you a creative kid from the beginning, or did you discover your creative side later on.
Ryan Sutter [00:11:59]:
No. I was definitely a creative kid from the beginning. I, I started, I think the first 3 loves I had creatively were drawing, writing, And, inventing. I I couldn’t decide if I wanted to be H. G. Wells, Thomas Edison, or, Vincent Van Gogh. Right? It was like all of all of the above. My brother, Rhett was a little bit of more than a year older than me, and he was a brilliant musician.
Ryan Sutter [00:12:34]:
He was obsessed with music from really young, and my, mom was a singer in a band. And so music was always there, and I sort of took music for granted. Like, Oh, well, that would be the easy default one, so I gotta go do one of the other ones. You know? Rhett’s the Rhett’s the music guy. So, I actually avoided Trying to learn anything about music. I loved music, and I had all my favorite records. And but I tried to learn anything, as much as as little as I could about actually becoming creative with music, because I was gonna I was gonna do the other things. And, really, my you know, I decided I’m a writer.
Ryan Sutter [00:13:08]:
I’m gonna be a writer. That’s my thing. That’s my jam. That’s what I’m gonna do when I grow up. But I never really settled in, and I still haven’t. I mean, I’m I’m still a person who is interested in almost all forms of creativity. I still see it as the same thing when I I’ve I’ve, like, written software and games because I’m been working as a software developer for a long time. I think that’s creative.
Ryan Sutter [00:13:34]:
I’ve done paintings. That’s creative. I’ve recorded lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of music, And shot films and and done, photography and, all the same things. And so Scott and I are really similar from that perspective. We’re both, sort of across the board. But I did find that as much as I love all those other forms of creativity, Probably music was where I probably should have started because it’s the natural one for, how I was born. Just a I have a music brain, and, I’m just that’s who I’m always gonna be. So, Yeah.
Ryan Sutter [00:14:10]:
Always was that creative kid. And like Scott, we did have a place to play and do all this, and long suffering parents. When my, brother and I, I was probably 6 or 7 when we decided to form our 1st band. And we We’re triggered by the idea that I had with my invention side to make a drum set by using ice cream pails And cardboard and tape. And so we took, like, the ice cream 1 gallon ice cream pail and wrapped cardboard around it and then used duct tape and made little tom toms. And And then we’re like, well, we need a snare drum, so then we took, like, this metal, like, Brady Bunch lunchbox, and we put crayons in it. And we found that if you hit it, It sounded kinda like a snare because the crayons are vibrating there. And then, like so we built this whole kit, and my brother started drumming on it, and he was So good so fast that my parents went out and bought them a kit.
Ryan Sutter [00:15:04]:
That like, a real drum set.
Scott Homan [00:15:05]:
Wow.
Ryan Sutter [00:15:06]:
And it was, it was pretty cool. And then and then that was when I was like, okay. So now that’s yours, Rhett. You you you could do that. But, you know, we had the drum set in the room, and then we just had sort of instruments accumulating. Eventually, we christened it nuclear gopher, and I’m literally sitting in its descendant right now surrounded by Instruments and even the sign from our 1st concert from 40 years ago. So it, it was just an unbroken chain all the way back to early childhood.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:38]:
So I guess I don’t have to ask if your parents were supportive if they went out and bought a drum kit that quickly.
Ryan Sutter [00:15:43]:
No. They they actually tried to get him on Star Search. Were just like, oh
Scott Homan [00:15:47]:
my god.
Ryan Sutter [00:15:47]:
We got a prodigy.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:49]:
Wow. That’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time.
Ryan Sutter [00:15:51]:
Yeah. Ed McMahon. Yeah. Brett tried out.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:55]:
Wow. That must have been an interesting adventure.
Ryan Sutter [00:16:00]:
Yeah. It was pretty neat. I was a little jealous. Not gonna lie.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:03]:
Did you get to go along?
Ryan Sutter [00:16:05]:
No. No. I was there when they took this his little, like, pictures in the living room for his audition, and then and then I found out that they decided not to put him on. So that was as much as I got to see.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:17]:
Wow. Wow. So I know that that your Story with music is a little bit different than most people’s because I watched the documentary. But, oh, you’re welcome. Can can you kind of give us a little synopsis of how that was complicated?
Ryan Sutter [00:16:38]:
Yeah. I think the the thing that really motivated the way it wound up was the we thought the world was gonna end. Our religious, beliefs basically said that we lived in the last days that started in 1914 and that people alive in 1914 would Still be alive when Armageddon came and the end of the world came. So it’s the 19 eighties. Right? And we’re making music for fun, But we’re also thinking like, man, those 1914 people, they’re, like, getting old, and the world could literally end next Wednesday. So you don’t When you think the end of the world is coming any minute now, you’re kind of not thinking, oh, I wanna invest more in this. I wanna go become a rock Star or, you know, go to Juilliard and pursue something. You’re thinking, how do I make my make it so I can keep doing this fun thing without, You know, anybody trying to stop me.
Ryan Sutter [00:17:39]:
And so our music, world, we understood the kind of rules In the JW world, which, you know, we couldn’t have swearing in the songs. We couldn’t write songs that were, like, sexy or worldly or talked about drugs. But even more than that, like, we also knew not to write overtly religious songs because, that was the the Watchtower Society did those songs. And so we sort of just intuitively knew what what would be allowed and what wouldn’t, and, And it sorta gave us, we had the that space then where we could just express ourselves And discover our creativity. I mean, I was, like, 15 when I first read Natalie Goldberg’s book, Writing Down the Bones, and started using Buddhist writing practice and and, like, to to write my songs. You know? So, like, it sort of opened this little backdoor to, Emotional release to being able to say things you couldn’t say otherwise by encoding them in song lyrics or just even, You know, connecting with people on a different level other than the spiritual, or it’s it’s somebody you go to school with who you’re not really allowed to be super friends with. So Music really came into this really important role, for for me and my brother and then, eventually, my younger 2 siblings as well. We all just needed it, in order to sort of maintain a balance of sanity and in order to, Process, like, deeper emotional things or whatever that like, there’s no outlet for in the Jehovah’s Witness culture.
Ryan Sutter [00:19:15]:
It’s it’s, You know, 5 meetings a week, and you’re you’re going door to door, and you’re very constricted and constrained. And if you have something you wanna say that you need to get off your chest, Being able to put it in a song was like salvation. You know? So that was that was, I still think that that’s, you know, that’s why I’m here today.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:40]:
Sure.
Ryan Sutter [00:19:42]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:43]:
Yeah. I I’m it it’s interesting to me because honestly, you know, until I heard from you guys and and watched the documentary, I had not ever thought of well, I’ve first of all, I had not ever thought about Jehovah’s Witnesses a whole heck of a lot because I’d never encountered too many. But I certainly never thought that it was a cult because I didn’t know that much about it. So I was really surprised. And yet, when you’re talking about, you know, that kind of situation where you’re supposed to be there 5 times a week and you have all of these rules and you’re kind of separated from everybody else. It’s yeah. It’s it definitely fits fits the description as they say. And so It it just intrigues me that I got the impression that music in general was kind of frowned upon, and yet You guys got away with it somehow.
Ryan Sutter [00:20:42]:
Well, what I like to remind people of sometimes is that You know of some Jehovah’s Witness musicians and some other famous Jehovah’s Witnesses. You may just not think of it that way because Prince was a Jehovah’s Witness, and I think most of us know Prince. He became a Jehovah’s Witness because he studied with Larry Graham, who was bass player from Sly and the Family Stone and one of the guys who invented the funk bass back in the seventies, and he has a band called Grand Central Station still. He’s an elder in a congregation in the Twin Cities. Venus and Serena Williams are Jehovah’s Witnesses. Like, they they it it does happen. But like you say, like, most people don’t really recognize or think about the Witnesses as much other than, like, an annoyance on a Saturday morning or those goofy people with the carts. And Right.
Ryan Sutter [00:21:31]:
That’s really because it is so closed. You know? We we the the the word cult, which we don’t use much in the documentary, but we do use and but we do use, and it is accurate, is enough of a loaded word that I tend to to try to let people understand what’s going on before I say it. But the Watchtower Society is very much a very, like, us and them. There’s the rest of the world, then there’s the society. And if you’re in, you don’t realize how separate you are from everybody else, even, like, just The the walls you wind up with between you and even your friends if they’re not Witnesses. And so, yeah, it’s very, very closed. And and the few bubbles of, accidental successful Jehovah’s Witnesses are probably just statistically, you know, unavoidable. Like, Ever once in a while, somebody who happens to be a Jehovah’s Witness is gonna get famous.
Ryan Sutter [00:22:23]:
Michael Jackson and the Jackson five were all Jehovah’s Witnesses or raised that way. So it it happens, but it’s rare. It’s not encouraged. And, frankly, even if you look at the nuclear gopher story, How the heck were we gonna ever have broken out of that bubble with the way we felt like we had well, I felt like I had to do it. I mean, I was kinda running it. It helped our our little scene. The way it was structured being online and being sort of underground a little bit Helped us all connect with each other, and it helped, like, this community grow over Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, St. Louis.
Ryan Sutter [00:23:00]:
Like, we had all sorts of Fun. It was great. But it wasn’t, it was just, You know, nobody was gonna probably break into any mainstream or become rich and famous that way unless they just locked into it because we weren’t trying.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:17]:
Well, that makes sense. Yeah. And, you know, Prince does ring a vague bell with me now, but I did not know about the Jacksons or the Williams sisters. So
Ryan Sutter [00:23:27]:
They don’t trumpet it.
Scott Homan [00:23:29]:
Who else? Yeah.
Ryan Sutter [00:23:31]:
George Benson. Your big 19 seventies jazz guitarist. Yeah. Wow.
Scott Homan [00:23:39]:
Then there’s a lot more who are who left the religion, who become famous, but they don’t usually talk about the fact that they came from that faith. If you look up, like, former Jehovah’s Witness artists or musicians, it’s like you have 60 people that you Some of them for sure you’ll you’ll have heard of.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:54]:
Wow.
Scott Homan [00:23:55]:
Which is what our my podcast is like you saw the film. It’s about it like a a nuclear gopher is like a insular group in a finite location, but there’s people like this all over the world, like, all over the religion’s all over the planet, so people have left that religion all over the planet who’ve then used music and art to process their trauma and, like, have their voice and say what they wanted to say, and they have a lot of emotions. And they put it into this art form, and it’s beautiful. So, like, that’s the podcast, which has been super fun because, like, it’s not just this one thing. It’s It’s not just this nostalgic piece from the past where people left the, you know, the the main music in the religion. They left and made more music that’s even, you know, more powerful. And then But, you know, that’s like one thing. It’s like, now it’s a present day global thing that’s happening, which is super exciting, and I love working on it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:41]:
Yeah. That sounds like a lot of fun. Sounds very cool. So there’s so many things to ask here. I I thought it was really fascinating too that it was like your your connections through the music that kind of led you to say, hey. Wait a minute. This doesn’t make any sense.
Ryan Sutter [00:25:04]:
Yeah. Think of music in this sense almost like power lines. Right? Like, I I Didn’t, wake up one day and start having my belief system crumble because I was doing music, But I had all these connections with people. You know, James in the film, Chad in the film, Eric and Cindy. These are some of my Closest best friends and people I thought of as my literally thought of as my brothers and sisters. And We were all sharing with each other, including what we wrote online on our blogs or our live journals or whatever because it was, you know, a a while back. And so that connection that we forged by being creative together, When I broke all the cardinal rules and started spouting, you know, nonbelief, and asking things online and writing things, The connection we already had from the creativity thing stuck around, and they actually, like they secretly read what I was writing. And then, And then they did their own research, and then we reconnected, and we got creative again.
Ryan Sutter [00:26:17]:
So it was almost like it was just the the fact that we had those other connections Almost transcended the religion, I guess. And I didn’t know Scott at the time, but Scott was close with Eric. Eric. Scott sort of was like a a a a a second order removed from from stuff that I was Writing that I didn’t know anybody was reading, and I’m in no way taking credit for other people changing their views directly, I think, but I think they saw that at least Somebody they loved and somebody they were connected to creatively was willing to say things and willing to write things, and then it got them thinking they did their own They did their own work. You know? And and that led to, or helped lead to Scott, making his his decisions and doing what he did. And then years later, he came out of the woodwork and contacted me, and that led to the movie. So, I really do think without the music, I don’t think any of this would have happened because I would have just left, right, and then the outside apostate, shiny guy, and nobody would have paid any attention to me for the rest of my life. And I’d probably be standing on a corner screaming right now.
Ryan Sutter [00:27:28]:
You know? So, Scott, you wanna add to that? Did I misrepresent anything?
Scott Homan [00:27:32]:
No. That’s perfect. I mean, you could represent even deeper. I feel like Your what you wrote in your blog turned like, changed Eric’s mind. He did like you said, he did his own work, and then I was communicating with Eric as I was sort of leaving the religion. We were trading books like, Dawkins. What’s that main book you did?
Ryan Sutter [00:27:53]:
God Delusion.
Scott Homan [00:27:54]:
God Delusion
Ryan Sutter [00:27:55]:
is the one I God Delusion.
Scott Homan [00:27:56]:
We were, like, trading as Witnesses active Witnesses, we were trading books by atheists. We were trading books by, biologists, and we were like, have you have you read this theory? What about this theory? And then out then we challenge each other. Well, like, yeah. I mean, Sure. That’s an interesting point. For example, I was reading a book about Michael Behe. I don’t wanna give him any he wrote about, intelligent design, And and then Eric’s like, yeah. Cool book.
Scott Homan [00:28:21]:
That totally corroborates your version of reality that we all learned in the religion, but have you read this blog That breaks it all down and and shows the counterargument. That that book is like, he’s making a Christian point about creationism. Like, you have to read what other people say that disprove it because he’s just trying to I don’t know. For example, so we were, like, having these kinds of dialogue, and we were reading these books, And, and, Eric gave me critical thinking. It was like a gift, and that probably came directly from Ryan doing critical thinking in public on his blog that he was secretly reading, and eventually, I left the religion not just for that one reason. That was a big part of it, but, Like, the Ryan’s Ryan’s writing had this huge ripple effect in that community and then in beyond the greater community. And the reason we were all connected, like he said, is music. And then it wasn’t yeah.
Scott Homan [00:29:11]:
It was, like, 8 years later. I had this, like, burning desire to, like, well, I I don’t talk to my family anymore, and that’s a problem, and shunning what does that mean about this religion? Like, I disagree with their belief system in many, many reasons and why for many reasons, but this this This idea that, like, we talked about the the word cult. I mean, they’re they’re they have a lot of negative traits, and you can’t leave it, indignity. And people will put 20 different negative labels on you and shout that from the rooftops that you’re one of these kinds of people, and we will never talk to you again because of those things. They’re not even necessarily true. Like, I left for completely logical belief system reasons. Like, I I deconstructed myself through 10 years of being in the religion, and once I was finally out anyway, there’s a lot I could say, but, Yeah. Ryan’s writing really connected that, and the music had this through line that kept us all together, and eventually I wanna tell a story.
Scott Homan [00:30:07]:
And I was like, I I heard about this guy Ryan, And I know he was important in the music scene that I was a part of and kind of influenced by in in Minneapolis because I lived there when I went to school, one of the college for photography. And I was like, do you guys know that guy? Like, who was that guy? Wasn’t he, like, related to this other musician we were friends with? Can you guys put me in touch with him? And then we were got in touch for the 1st time, and came out, and we did an interview, and it was awesome. It was became I was like, that’s the one of the most powerful interviews I’ve ever done, and that’s a way bigger story than I’m used to cap capturing as a As a podcaster, and I was doing, like, a called XEW coming out as, like, deep dive interview series about your exiting story from this faith Mhmm. It’s my first idea, and Ryan’s story was like, woah. We can make a film with that. And I had not really thought about making a movie, At that point, but after the interview, I thought a lot about it. Anyway, that’s, like, the longer version of the story.
Ryan Sutter [00:31:01]:
You’re regretting that now, aren’t you, Scott?
Scott Homan [00:31:05]:
I I mean, I really thought I could do it in, like, 6 months. Here we are five and a half years later. We we did finish it. We shot it and finished editing in 3 full years, a little less than 3 years. But then there’s a whole other part of making a movie is How do you get the movie in front of people? The distribution of the movie. So that’s where we’re at right now.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:24]:
Right. Well, before we jump into that, I’m I’m just fascinated because earlier today, I was thinking about how, you know, every repressive regime always goes after the artists first. And and I thought, you know yeah. Because being an artist is expressive and Does involve critical thinking and thinking outside of the box and all of that, but but I’d never thought before right now about how it’s not It’s not the art itself alone that’s subversive. It’s all of those artistic connections. Because I think if you had been doing art in a vacuum, You might not have had a set of connections that were willing to listen to you and, you know, have your back that you felt safe with, and it would have been a very different story.
Ryan Sutter [00:32:13]:
That’s 100% true. Yeah. And and the the fact that being creative, If you’re really going to create, if your if your art’s gonna be honest, which it has to be for it to help you. Right? Mhmm. You have to be able to say anything, and so you have to learn the ability to question yourself and question your beliefs even if you’re just saying, like Remember there’s a song I wrote in, like, I don’t know, 1990. I was a a kid. And but in this song, I actually tried to say how I had been experiencing some doubts and questionings about my faith and I and about that. You know, Satan was messing with me and trying to get me to think twice about things, whatever.
Ryan Sutter [00:32:56]:
And it was, like, I had to wrestle to write that. And then but then I did, and then I wrote it, and I wrote music to it, and I recorded it with my brother and some other people, and we used to play it on stage. I played it at Witness graduation parties, and nobody knew what I was singing about, but I did. And and it was like even learning the ability to give yourself those little windows to, like, think about second guessing or think about Revalidating is a skill you get by being doing creative work if you’re honest about it. Even if you’re just writing something, You know, that you don’t ever share with anybody and you rip it up. Even telling yourself it’s okay to do it can feel liberating. And so I definitely know that I got that from that. And, I mean, I do think that you you can’t overestimate how it helps your brain To learn lateral thinking and creative thinking.
Ryan Sutter [00:33:56]:
And and I think most people who are creative are ultimately gonna find their way out of a high control Organization. I mean, it not all of them. Some of them will find a way to keep themselves in the box, especially if they think they’re gonna die if they get out. Yeah. You’re totally right. They go after artist artist first for a reason.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:16]:
Yeah. Well and what’s striking me about what you just said is that You played this song all over the place and nobody caught on. I mean, that that is, you know, clearly, either they weren’t Just weren’t paying attention and looked at it as background music, or there was a complete lack of ability or interest in saying, Hey. Wait a minute. That was interesting what he just said. I don’t I don’t think you’re supposed to say that. You know, because I was gonna say, did your parents catch on? Because I know that, you know, it didn’t seem like they had any clue in the movie. No.
Ryan Sutter [00:34:50]:
But No. But the the on the other hand, I mean, if I told you, like so the opening line of the song is, Somebody handed me a check and a brass watch with a chain, and I stood looking at them, sipping Molotov cocktails in the rain. And I was talking about being handed The reward after a lifetime of faithfulness, and Looking at it thinking, I feel terrible, and I just wanna burn it all down. And, like but it’s metaphorical enough and obscure enough, right, That I can sing that in front of a 100 people, and none of them know that I’m basically saying, I’d almost rather, like, destroy my life Even with even if I could live forever, I’d almost rather destroy my life than than not be able to do what I need to do. Right? Mhmm. And so I learned, I don’t know. I got good at metaphor.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:43]:
That does certainly complicate whether or not people pick up on stuff for sure.
Ryan Sutter [00:35:47]:
Well, you have to. You gotta encode it. It’s Yeah. Yeah. I don’t have to do that anymore.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:52]:
So how long was it between writing that song and when you left?
Ryan Sutter [00:35:58]:
14 years? Wow.
Scott Homan [00:36:01]:
Woah. Okay. Actually, can you tell what the names of your albums were? I think that’s really, really sing. That you did with Levone.
Ryan Sutter [00:36:10]:
Oh, the well, yeah. Some of them had some interesting titles in retrospect. My brother and I’s albums, the first one was called psychotrauma. Then How old
Scott Homan [00:36:22]:
were you when you titled it that?
Ryan Sutter [00:36:28]:
- We did had one called We Don’t Exist. Another one was called Psychotic Requiem. Then we had a Spectacle for Compassionate Minds, A concert for no one. Yeah. A lot of our a lot of our album titles were, I guess, telling in retrospect. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Sutter [00:36:55]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:57]:
And 14 years is a pretty long time to wrestle with something like that.
Ryan Sutter [00:37:02]:
Yeah. Well, I got I got married really young out of high school and became a dad when I was, like, 20. And, I really kind of focused my life on, you know, keep your head down, do the right thing. Armageddon’s coming tomorrow anyhow, so don’t question it too much. Raise your kid. Be a good dad. You know, and that’s when I started a career in doing Computer programming, which led me to almost immediately put all the music online and created this whole community, which is awesome. But, yeah, it was, I think, you know, in an alternate universe, I think I probably, as a teenager, I would’ve known That this wasn’t who I was.
Ryan Sutter [00:37:45]:
It wasn’t what I believed, but I had lots of incentive to stick with it. Not the least of which was that I loved my brother, And I was so close to my brother, and we did all of our music together. I wasn’t gonna do anything. I was gonna take that music off.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:58]:
Right. And I mean, honestly, from from the titles you just listed, it sounds like you did know on a certain level, and it was more a matter of what am I gonna do with that? I’m not gonna do anything with it right now. Yeah. You know?
Ryan Sutter [00:38:11]:
Yep. I was pretty clearly divided, and I knew That there was, like, how I really felt, and there was what I had been convinced to believe. And every positive in my life was Tied to the second one and how I really felt was not as relevant. So, again, creativity. Like like Cindy says in the movie, you know, like, Music was her savior. We’re all connected by that. All of us in this in the in this community.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:40]:
Sure. Well and and, honestly, cognitive dissonance is a powerful drug. Yep. We just
Scott Homan [00:38:47]:
need to describe how you See cognitive dissonance or how you understand it, Nancy?
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:52]:
Cognitive dissonance as I understand it is The chaos caused in your mind by 2 completely contradictory pieces of information and how you try to navigate. And most people end up deciding that they’re gonna stick with 1 and ignore the other one for as long as they possibly can because they can’t handle that chaos. That’s that’s my understanding, roughly are
Scott Homan [00:39:15]:
That was beautiful. I know, like, a lot of people don’t know what that is, and I just recently, a few years ago, learned the term existed, and it’s like, oh, yeah. That’s a great way to describe what was happening for most of my life in Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:28]:
I think most of us, the first time we hear it are like, oh, wait. I know exactly what you mean. I didn’t know there was a word for it, but I know exactly what you’re talking about. Yeah.
Scott Homan [00:39:36]:
I was trying to square so many of their beliefs growing up That, like, everything I was learning contradicted so many of their beliefs, and you can only do that for so long before it like, You have to deal with it. You have to choose one source of information over the other one, and things pile up over time. Like, well, you know, 1,000,000 things I’ve read Say this thing is true, and there’s a lot of people backing it up with, like, real evidence. I can’t really accept the other one. It feels like fairy tale at this point. That kind of thing started happening.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:07]:
Yeah. But when the consequence of saying I don’t accept that one anymore is your whole world falls apart Yeah. It’s it’s hard to get up and do that. Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Homan [00:40:19]:
There’s, something you said about, if you don’t mind, No.
Ryan Sutter [00:40:22]:
Go ahead.
Scott Homan [00:40:22]:
North Korea. I tell Tell you a lot. They’re like, what was what was it like, like, this weird religion you grew up in? Like, oh, it’s kinda like North Korea, which is extreme, and I don’t want to, like, take away from The extremity of, like, a North Korean experience. I don’t really know what that is, but they did something that I learned about recently. They started going over the border into South Korea and kidnapping really famous film actors and directors to make their own movies, They kept them in solitary confinement until they broke them psychologically, until they agreed to do their craft in North Korea for the goals of the government. And so now they’re and they’re still there. Like, they’re still living there making movies for the government, and they made like, because the government tried to make a bunch of movies, and they like, the brother of the The leader. I think it was Kim Jong, ill Mhmm.
Scott Homan [00:41:10]:
Or the one before him. I can’t remember now the exact history.
Ryan Sutter [00:41:13]:
I think
Scott Homan [00:41:13]:
And the name was
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:14]:
was the father, and Kim Jong un is the current one.
Scott Homan [00:41:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think it was Kim Jong il, got, like, his brother or son to, like, Manage media and propaganda, and they were making movies every year, and it was no one liked them. They were terrible, especially on the global scene. So then they made a movie Using these, like, famous artists and directors and actors from South Korea that had kidnapped, and then they became they started making really good content, And they started getting recognized for making good content, but it was, like, from this terrible experience. Another one that comes to mind is v for Vendetta, which is not a real story, But it’s the the movie, takes place in England as a fiction, and there’s a great graphic novel that goes with it. Like, there’s people who are collecting art in secret places, and you got found with Art. You would get put into prison or taken out or killed or whatever.
Scott Homan [00:42:04]:
So, like, the main character has, like, this amazing underground art collection, and, like, your idea of, like, Authoritarian regimes go after the artist first.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:12]:
Mhmm.
Scott Homan [00:42:13]:
They kinda they have to to, like, control people or control ideas.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:19]:
Yeah. I did not know that they were doing that with folks from South Korea, which is utterly horrifying.
Ryan Sutter [00:42:26]:
Yeah. I didn’t. Yeah. That’s awful.
Scott Homan [00:42:28]:
It’s a great documentary about it. I don’t remember what it’s called, but I was blown away. Like, that’s so extreme. Like, they were trapped for, like, 8 years before they agreed to do it. Like, you
Ryan Sutter [00:42:36]:
have to.
Scott Homan [00:42:36]:
Like, I won’t do it. I refuse to act, and then eventually, like, okay. I can’t be alone all this time.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:42]:
Right. Oy.
Ryan Sutter [00:42:45]:
Wow.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:46]:
Well, let’s let’s move from that into how how this This documentary, I mean, you sort of have have alluded to it already, but how how did you guys decide this was the thing to to make? And, I mean, you mentioned it took, what, 3 years? So, I mean, obviously, a bigger project than you originally thought. How did it all come together?
Scott Homan [00:43:10]:
I wanna tell a story about shunning, and I didn’t know how to do that. And that’s how I started doing the actually w coming out interview series, which is just 1 person. The idea was, like, Have the sit down interview, nice lights, couple cameras to do it properly, professionally, and then I would go shoot with them and doing whatever the thing that they love. Their modern day thing, that’s their thing. Even if it’s just like, oh, their this is their job or this is their, like, daily commute, riding trains across Germany or, I’m riding motorcycles to go to work or to their do the fun thing in Vietnam where I was living. So I started doing those things, and it was really fun. And I crowdfunded to keep that going because I loved it so much, but it wasn’t really getting the attraction I thought it would. It wasn’t getting the attention I thought it would.
Scott Homan [00:43:49]:
So I was like, let’s let’s make it a bigger thing. And during that time period, I I met Ryan, and we did our interview. And then I was like, well, the very first interviews I wanna do are with people that I love and the music connections. I went to Minneapolis because I was like, I know these people, and I know and they’ve been giving their music. They’d already been working with me with their music as a soundtrack to that project. Right. The the burning desire to make a show about shunning is because it’s a universal experience, not just for people who leave this particular religion, but also Amish, also ex orthodox Jewish, also, evangelical. There’s, like, a more conservative side of evangelicals, and it and it goes on and on and on.
Scott Homan [00:44:23]:
There’s groups in India, and there’s over the world that have been repeat this experience. It’s just one of the you can’t live in a dignified way. This experience happens, and people get rid of you. They Cut you off emotionally, actually.
Ryan Sutter [00:44:37]:
Well, there’s a parallel with your choice to use the term coming out too because There’s also people in the in the LGBT community who they, you know, they get cut off by their families for the rest of their lives just for stepping out and being who they are. And, again, no graceful or dignified way amongst certain things where you have to either choose to be or not to be, and that’s it. Right. And and they you’re gonna lose those people. So I I just I’m not meaning to jump in on you there, Scott, but I just I think it’s important. I I I resonated with that I first saw that you called it, you know, it it coming out, I thought, well, you know, it is a Non it is specific to the Witnesses in the context of the people you’re working with, but it’s not specific to the Witnesses in the context of the experience of, like, Social ostracism or people having to, admit or be, honest about Who they are, what they are, what they feel, what they believe, and then getting the social repercussions of loss of relationships.
Scott Homan [00:45:45]:
Only the Sith think in absolutes, if I can if I can quote Star Wars.
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:51]:
You totally can.
Scott Homan [00:45:55]:
Yeah. It’s black and white thinking, and I appreciate you bringing that up. That was, the very first interview I did was, a good friend of my brother’s ex wife who left the religion, And her and I are still very close. She knew this other friend in from Chicago who also settled in Germany after leaving the religion, but he he he said in our very first interview, he’s like, I came out twice. I came out gay at 19, and I left the religion. So I get to I’m the only gay person I know in the world who came out twice, something like that. He says in the interview, and I was like
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:19]:
Wow.
Scott Homan [00:46:20]:
That’s a really I wanna use can I use that for the title of the project? And we just went with it, and we stuck with it. I still have that project going. It’s a YouTube It’s like all the other interviews that didn’t make the movie. Mhmm. And there’s, like, 30 interviews, and we put out, like, 18 of them. So I have some of a backlog of interviews I wanna go and Cut, but this film took the precedent because I was like, oh, this is this is the thing. This is the rich story of shunning, and it’s it’s so parallel to my story. It’s almost I like to say it’s, autobiographical and that Ryan’s reason for leaving that we really explore in the middle of the 2nd chapter of the movie.
Scott Homan [00:46:56]:
The kind of the his his coming coming out realization story, that he tells and all the losses that come from that, the innocence, Family, friends, community, relationships of all kinds. All those losses are and then and then how people treat him after
Ryan Sutter [00:47:15]:
Mhmm.
Scott Homan [00:47:15]:
Cutting him off. That’s the story I really wanted to tell all these years, and I was like, wow. That’s like, that is the thing I’ve been looking for. And to be able to do that with music was like, okay. Now my worlds are all coming together. And and and also he had he and James Zimmerman, the author in the film Wrote deliverance at hand, redemption of a devout Jehovah’s Witness. James had been the filmmaker for a lot of the music videos and short films and trailers, And, Ryan’s like, you gotta meet this guy. He shot that music video that we did about cannibalism.
Scott Homan [00:47:45]:
She cooked me up and ate me for dinner. So you got a goofy funny thing that did it. Like, okay. Cool. And he had, like, a backlog. Him and his wife, had this backlog of of videos that they had done with Ryan and that whole community Going back, like, over over a decade worth of content, that was like a backlog that made it a documentary. I can do interviews all day shooting modern day footage, and that Kind of is like a doc. It’s almost more like news news style.
Scott Homan [00:48:10]:
And, so I was like, wow. I have this I could make it into a proper documentary with all that backlog of film that they had done, plus all the backlog of music and tell the story emotionally because that’s, like, my background is, like, How do you carry started music? And I really wanted to explore that, and they were down for it, and they’d already been involved. Eric and Cindy, especially with Hi TV, They’ve been doing the soundtrack of that whole project. So to have all those pieces kind of I was like, wow. This this is kinda becoming a thing. For me, it’s all very foggy. I didn’t really know. I went and shot, like, 8 interviews after shooting with these guys in Minneapolis that same couple of months after we crowdfunded.
Scott Homan [00:48:44]:
And, for it took me a while to, like, really say I’m like, yeah. That that was amazing what we did. Like, that that is the movie. I there’s a whole there’s a whole story in this. Then I got a a story editor together, and we worked together and cut the whole thing down from, like, 15 hours of content down to 2, and we spent, like, a year getting rid of 30 more minutes and moving things around to, like, really capture the story. And it’s it’s a whole process, and there’s a lot of learning curve there. And I’ve worked with a few professionals and did a lot of, learning while doing, but it’s my 1st big feature documentary. But it wasn’t exactly the plan, and I’m so happy, but it was a plan in my life to someday make a feature documentary and go to the film festivals, and we did that.
Scott Homan [00:49:22]:
It was super fun, And we went to 11 festivals, and we won an award at 1, but we the one we won an award at was a horror film festival. Oh, jeez. So, like, I think some people part of me is like, I don’t it doesn’t seem that crazy to me, this whole thing, because I lived it. It’s like it’s a part of my life. It’s a part of It’s not can’t be that crazy, but then, like, people are like, oh my god. That’s, like, that’s darker than the horror films that we make. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:47]:
It’s stroke value. I can see that, though. You know? I mean, because it is it’s I can only speak for myself, but at least for me, it’s it’s difficult to watch without being horrified, You know, by by the whole reaction and and just the fact that I mean, we all know that there are groups like this that exist, that isolate people from communities and whatever, and their goal is to keep you isolated because then you if they don’t, you’ll leave and may make them look are bad and and whatever. But still, I think most of us are familiar with it more as an abstract concept and don’t ever have the opportunity to see a specific story and how it plays out. So So, yeah, in that respect, it is kind of you know, I can I can see where it could kind of land in horror territory in a way?
Scott Homan [00:50:43]:
There’s something we want to do that was to humanize the cult experience. Maybe as someone who just watched it, how did that land for you?
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:51]:
I I think that it works that way because you you see I mean, you’re essentially seeing it through Ryan’s eyes, you know, with added facets from the others. But but you have that perspective of this is what my life was like. This is what I knew. And because this is what I knew, this is what I did and didn’t do, and how I struggled with the whole thing, and, you know, The fact that if you say I’m out of here, you’re never gonna see most of your friends and your family again is a massive, massive consequence that, you know, I don’t know how you watch something like that and don’t put yourself in that place Even though you can’t obviously, you know, understand the full experience because it didn’t happen to you, you’re still You’re still relating to the person who’s telling it and just imagining, my god, what if that would you know, what if I did something like that? You know, what if I was in that kind of situation? So I think I think it definitely brings it to that that level where anybody who’s watching it is gonna say, oh, wow. You know? This is this is something I’m glad I don’t have to experience, but I feel awful for people who do. You know? And and I’m curious, Ryan, to know, you know, what what did you think of the idea of basically taking your story and turning it into something for the whole the whole world potentially to see.
Ryan Sutter [00:52:23]:
So sometimes I’ve I’ve got this, joke that I do at work where I will walk into my boss during a 1 on 1 or something, and I’ll be like, so am I fired? And and and it’s kind of just think of the worst thing that can happen, and then think, What if he said yes. Right? Okay. Would I live? And when I once I had to tell my father that I didn’t believe anymore. That was the worst thing I could do. Right? It was the sort of, like, the The committing suicide step of leaving. And, so subsequent Stuff I just decided. You know what? I’m just gonna lean into being, proud of and confident about who I am, What I believe, what happened to me, I’m not gonna be apologetic about it. I’m not gonna give the power away to them.
Ryan Sutter [00:53:21]:
And so As Scott can attest, when he first reached out to me about this, I responded with, like, this 13 page biography that I just wrote him back. I literally wrote this Google Doc with I think it was 13 pages, and I was like, you think you know something about the story? This is what happened. You know? And, and, and I was just I think I wanted this to be told.
Scott Homan [00:53:45]:
Mhmm.
Ryan Sutter [00:53:46]:
Because, a, they couldn’t I mean, how do you shun me more? You’re already never talking to me. So Yeah. You know, we’re already there.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:57]:
But there’s still the
Ryan Sutter [00:54:01]:
I have I still see my family members On the rare occasions when somebody dies or, you know, like, most recently, it was my grandmother’s funeral. But and they will act normal around me. Like like, they they have to because they’re putting it on for other people. But when I realized that I’d I’d already paid the price, then it’s like, well, what’s the potential, upside to doing this? And the upside is somebody else will go through this and they’ll go. Yeah. But I saw that documentary, and I know that I can get better on the other side of it. And it was so I told Scott right up front. I was like, It’s important to me that this is not just some sort of anti Jehovah’s Witness propaganda piece.
Ryan Sutter [00:54:49]:
That’s not my goal. It is important to me that this helps people understand this experience in a way that if they are facing it, they feel less less alone. And if they know somebody who’s facing it, they can think about how to help. And if they are, are completely unaware of it From the Jehovah’s Witness perspective, but they have other, reasons why this resonates for other reasons, in their lives that they can benefit Because at least then it’s it’s worth a damn. Right? Like, you know, this happened for for some sort of net benefit. So I was pretty clear with Scott, like, how the tone of the movie would, would be acceptable to me. And my sort of, I guess yardstick I still keep in my head is and I don’t know if this will ever happen, but if if my family members watched this movie, Which to my knowledge, they never have, and I don’t think they ever would. But if they did, would I be okay with that? And the answer is, yeah.
Ryan Sutter [00:55:48]:
Absolutely. They would understand better the impact their actions had on me in my life. And so I think Scott handled things very well. I have great love and respect for him because of this, because it was a very hard thing for me to to to decide to do. And, I think that the end result, is something that is I think it’s going to do a lot of good in the world that this movie exists. And so that makes me feel like, you know, Yeah. Nothing’s gonna change about my experience about whether, you know, I got hurt the way I did or traumatized the way I did, and I have For for your for your viewers or listeners, I I have moved on with my life. I’ve got a very great life, and I’m happy.
Ryan Sutter [00:56:35]:
They’ve this movie was a while ago, But I think it’s important. It I did second guess it. I’ve had some occasional freak outs about it, But I wouldn’t change it. I I would wouldn’t have done it different, at the end of the day. And that a lot of get lot of that, again, just boils down to Scott. He could’ve He could have handled it a very different way, but he did a a really, like it was clear that because he felt he was sort of telling his Story by proxy was mine. He was very sensitive to it, and, and that worked out really well.
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:10]:
Well and that was gonna be my next question for Scott what it’s like telling somebody else’s story when you have so much in common with it.
Scott Homan [00:57:20]:
One is that it was amazing to be able to have something that’s like, This is basically my lived experience. Put a different face and and voice to it, and so that was really special because I have also a backlog of music and videos, And I had this sort of we we have a very lot lot of very similar things. And then also to have the the his kind of logical deconstruction have that be similar and probably like we described earlier, like, it was probably mine was probably influenced by Ryan, by proxy, but these other people who are reading his blog is like a really special connection. And I also just really respect them and their music. I think their music’s amazing, and it’s that was another thing. It’s like, this is this kind of undiscovered music collection of over 30 albums. There’s 32 albums in our campaign for Kickstarter, and they’ll they’ll be available after that’s over. And, I was just like, this music has, like, been the soundtrack of my life now for years making the XOW Coming Out project.
Scott Homan [00:58:14]:
I want other people to have that experience. It’s awesome. It’s, like, powerful music in here. So all of that was very, very special. And, also, there’s something that, like like, and Ryan and I talked about over the years is he couldn’t tell the story, And I couldn’t really tell my own story, but to have the combination of the distance of having be able to tell someone else’s story as, like, I’m an objective viewer of their story in a sense Mhmm. Helped with the whole trauma side of it. And it also revealed a lot of traumatic things in my path that I didn’t Hadn’t dealt with properly up until the point of making the film. So since gotten therapy, like, I should have been doing for a decade, and that’s been really, really helpful.
Scott Homan [00:58:58]:
And, it’s a very triggering film, and it’s hard to do. Yeah. Very worth it. And I think there’s also a special thing of, like, I was trying so hard To tell this kind of story through all these interviews, being behind the camera, and I’m still in this film, of course, behind the camera. I was gonna say there. I would have Ryan say, like, Yeah. You can tell this story. I think it’s a great idea to tell this story, but here are the 7 criteria that he just described or whatever the number was.
Ryan Sutter [00:59:37]:
These
Scott Homan [00:59:37]:
are the criteria that I’m giving you if you want my involvement, and I won’t do the other thing. I won’t I won’t get involved if it’s gonna be this other kind of thing that is really, really common. So if you You dive into the former Jehovah’s Witness world on the Internet. There’s, like, I don’t know. It’s on re it’s like the ideas are on repeat, it feels like. And they’re totally valid ideas, but they’re not so deep or well thought through all the time. They’re I mean, they’re just saying, like, religion’s bad for this reason. This is what they said.
Scott Homan [01:00:06]:
It’s contradictory. It’s hypocritical. Oh my god. Look at them. They’re the bad guys. I’m hurt, and and that’s all totally true, But it’s sort of, like, screaming out of anger at the world and, like, get Mhmm. Give us attention. Like, this is this needs to change.
Scott Homan [01:00:20]:
This sucks. And there’s a lot more I could say about that. I have deep respect for it, but I wanted to change that narrative. And having Ryan say, like, I also wanna change that narrative, and if gonna involve me, it needs to be different. This is the story that really needs to be told, and it’s way bigger and way more important, and it’s about moving on. It’s about healing. About celebration of the good things as well. And so we made sure that it had all the elements Ryan was looking for, tales, notes, and he was very involved.
Scott Homan [01:00:45]:
So that’s also rare, a bunch of documentaries to have. He basically became a film partner from the beginning. Like, this is how it needs to be done, and if you do that, you have This amazing archive of content, music, my involvement, my opinions, I will help with this, You know, help I’ll will help make it happen. I’ll help make the connections to make it happen. And so it was he’s, I mean, he’s basically, like, A co producer, almost co director in terms of, like, a documentary gets edited. It gets directed in the edit more than it gets directed in the shooting because you have, like, 10, 20 times more content to work with than you end up putting in a movie. And so, we can talk about the credits later after this interview, Ryan. Yeah.
Ryan Sutter [01:01:28]:
Yeah. Because I’m such a I’m such a diva. I’m always on you about me proving how I’m listening. And and I wouldn’t expect that anybody, you know, who isn’t a former Jehovah’s Witness would be deeply involved in this world and and neither should you. But there is a lot of, Anger that people hold on to after they leave because and they have nowhere to put it. Right? That’s one of the advantages of shunning them is that You don’t have to listen to them tell you how they feel about the thing, and you don’t have to grant that their feelings have any validity. So People wind up bottling up that anger. And and when I was a kid, I mean, they would literally pick at the conventions with my my we would be in there eating, you know, ham sandwiches and drinking Shasta, and there would be people out front being like the Watchtower Society is evil.
Ryan Sutter [01:02:23]:
And That anger is a thing that when you’re raised Witness and you see it, you you are literally told that that is Evidence that you’re on the right side. Right? Like, look at the people who left. They’re all screwed up. They’re all bitter. They’re all, You know, mentally diseased is the the phrase that they use. And, and it was it’s really important not to inhabit that’s that that sort of, space. And I I I everybody has to go through that space, but you have to get past it or else, you just, You are you’re still basically a Jehovah’s Witness at that point, like, in your mind. You’re living a Jehovah’s Witness mindset and because everything is about being mad at them.
Ryan Sutter [01:03:08]:
And so I also went to therapy and you recorded a bunch of albums, and I had, like, a target, which was get out of this headspace, move on with my life, raise my kid, be a human being, you know, no longer feel weird. And that was why, again, it’s I think it’s good that that type of media This. I think it’s important that there’s people out there holding the society to account and and saying those things. But I also think it’s important that people See something more of, like yeah. And also it gets better, and also you can move on. And, that was pretty important to me for Scott to, that this that’s what this had to be. Just I think that’s what It needs people need to see more of that. You know? The the the first phase of just being angry can last for the rest of your life, but it’s a lot healthier if it only lasts for Is the minimum amount of time it needs to? Can you burn yourself up?
Nancy Norbeck [01:04:06]:
Yeah. That’s an interesting point. It’s the flip side of the same coin. And I don’t think most people think of things like that that way.
Ryan Sutter [01:04:15]:
Well, it’s a harder story to tell too. Right? Like, how do you tell? It’s easier to kind of just harp on, like and I’ve there’s a lot of it. Like, harp on, like, bad, bad, bad, or, you know, there’s there’s there’s quite a bit of, like, I guess, trauma porn out there with, you know, people went through something and then they cry and then that’s kind of that. And it it’s a little more nuance, a little more difficult to try to do what Scott did. But, again, that’s like I said, I that’s why I appreciate it. I think it was a really creative act To make it work because it it would it’s kind of a tight rope, and I and I Scott gives me a little more credit than I deserve. I didn’t really put my finger on, like, how to do this. The execution of how to make this a really good documentary was was Scott’s.
Ryan Sutter [01:04:56]:
I just told them the spirit I wanted it to be in.
Nancy Norbeck [01:05:01]:
I don’t think it would be as compelling a documentary if it was all everything is bad and I’m angry. You know? That’s that’s not much of a story. Just for a start. You know, you could tell that story in about 5 minutes and be done.
Scott Homan [01:05:16]:
Yep. Yep. I agree. And there’s a lot of that. We wanna make something different, and and I think my like, Ryan’s concept was very aligned, and what he wanted was very aligned with the product I was already working on, Which was, yeah, and then what happened? Like, yeah, you got out, and this is why you got out. Great. And then what did you do with your complete Detachment from influence by family, friends, community, and and this ability to go do anything you dream to do without any restrictions or people holding you back. And people have gone and done amazing things, and that’s what like, I was so celebrating in the actually becoming a project, and I was so excited about.
Scott Homan [01:05:52]:
And maybe it doesn’t resonate with the general public as much as I expected it to because people are like, yeah. And then I started a carpentry business, and I love it. And it’s like, okay. So we’re just, like, hanging out with the carpenter now, Or like you know, it’s like not so exciting, to the average person, but for for them, it’s like I did it. I I’ve always wanted to own my own business, and I went and did that thing, and then they’re, like, totally enjoying their life. And, and so some some of the stories sort of fall sort of like, oh, okay. Cool. Great.
Scott Homan [01:06:18]:
Good for you. You know? And so maybe it doesn’t, like, hit as hard, but this movie, it’s sort of like demonstrating the rise over, you know, period of years using music As people are finding their voice and becoming, like, a rock goddess for Cindy Ellendale’s example in the movie, which I feel like she is so empowering, and she’s finding her voice, And we can do that because we have so much amazing content. Whereas, like, the project was sort of, like, 1 person. You kinda get to know them. They’re there would be, like, 20 minute episodes, and I know. I still love it, and I still think it’s important. And I wanna I’m a keep going with it, but the film is way tighter, way more impressive and important than that. And there’s you know, to get really serious, people leave this or or stuck in the religion, and then they they off themselves and and die.
Scott Homan [01:07:01]:
And or then when they leave and they get cut off, They are traumatized, and they’re like, this is awful. I don’t wanna experience this anymore. And they also do like, the suicide rate’s super, super high. And so we also wanna demonstrate, like, Hey. These people aren’t having, like they’re not rock stars. They’re they don’t have, like, amazing lives necessarily. Like, we’re not showing off, like, the We’re not showing off, like, the best example of a rock star experience. We’re showing people who, like, got out, went through some struggles, and, like, used Use self expression to kind of land on the outside, and it’s a soft landing.
Scott Homan [01:07:32]:
And we demonstrate that you can do it too in a very human way. And I feel like That is a very relatable story, and and we tried so hard to, like, convey that. You know? They’re not I mean, I’m not sure what your what your experience is, but I don’t know. Maybe you could give us a idea what you thought of the end of the movie in terms of that, but it’s a very I feel it’s very human.
Nancy Norbeck [01:07:51]:
Yeah. And and I’m just thinking as you’re talking, like, Part of what comes through is that there were, what, 5 people that it focuses on, I think. Yeah. Like, none of you unless I completely misunderstood this, but I don’t think any of you really did this fully on your own. I mean, you were all, you know, having little conversations and whatever because you had the connection through the band and through the music. And so, you know, I would imagine it’s a whole lot harder if it’s just Ryan on his own than it is when it’s Ryan and everybody from his band. And so I don’t I don’t think that you’re necessarily, you know, like, really waving at that part, but I think somebody who’s watching it is gonna be like, you know, this would be a whole lot easier if I knew other people. You know? And maybe I don’t right now, but I need to find some.
Nancy Norbeck [01:08:47]:
Or I need to find some people who were not in this community ever that I can go hang out with So that I’m not totally on my own. I mean, I think that is a critical factor. And and it would be for anybody in a similar situation. I think, you know, human beings are communal creatures. You know, we don’t do well in isolation because we’re not supposed to. And that’s part of why the shunning works. Right? You are cut off from your tribe. Boy, are you in trouble now because you have just lost your tribe, and what are you gonna do without them? And so it’s a powerful threat.
Nancy Norbeck [01:09:21]:
And the answer is find a new tribe.
Ryan Sutter [01:09:26]:
And it’s amazing how strong, music is as a way to connect people. Mhmm. You know, one of the first Things that made me feel like I was starting to to connect with the world outside of my, Travis Winters upbringing, was and it took me 2 years to to do this, but it was playing in a band with some people who Jehovah’s Witnesses who I didn’t know from Nuclear Gopher, who were like, you know, just new people. But I you know, if you’ve ever done a creative thing with somebody, if you’ve done a if you’ve done acting, if you’ve if you’ve done music, You know, I don’t know if you’ve ever done a trust fall exercise where you just have to learn. Yeah. That’s what it’s kinda like. Right? Right? Like, you you you’ve been told all these worldly people are evil and blah blah blah blah, and then you’re like, you know what? I’m gonna get up on a play some music with some of these guys and gals and others, and I’m going to trust them that it’s gonna be good. And then you feel connected again, and you’re like, wow.
Ryan Sutter [01:10:31]:
And that and that’s why I just I I think art is such a really important part of this. Like, it it’s not the same without The communal art experience, and and and it I know there are other ways to make those connections, but I don’t know them because I’m an artist, And so this is how I am. But I I think it’s most people, like, there is that message right there. You gotta connect to other people. You gotta use something that you have as a way to connect to somebody else. And, you know, Doing that through art and creativity is a very powerful way to do it. I’m sure other people could have other ways to to do that, but I I think being alone and isolated, I do know I have lost quite a few people. I think I was sitting down figuring out, like, number one cause of people that I know who have died is is suicide.
Ryan Sutter [01:11:25]:
And it’s, not something I like to dwell on very much, but I think it’s because you you can be so alone, and and art Is a wonderful way to deal with that, I guess, is what
Nancy Norbeck [01:11:37]:
I’m trying
Scott Homan [01:11:37]:
to say.
Nancy Norbeck [01:11:38]:
Yeah. I’d agree with that. So I wanna make sure That we get to talk about the Kickstarter, and I’m curious to know how it is that you decided to do Kickstarter.
Scott Homan [01:11:49]:
So Kickstarter is one of many crowdfunding applications or platforms. We actually crowdfunded This film, the making of the film, the production shooting of the film in 2018 with Seed and Spark, which is a film based crowdfund platform. And Kickstarter has is a very similar platform, but it’s also just products and other kinds of things. People do music, like, a single album or a single book. But it’s There’s 2 pieces to crowdfunding, which is not just the money. It’s also the crowd. And so now that we’re releasing the movie, film’s ready to go. It’s all ready to Push Go and the distribution platform that we’re working with to get it out in the world onto common streaming services.
Scott Homan [01:12:29]:
There’s a whole cost associated with that. And so, we are raising finishing funds on Kickstarter while it takes, like crowdfund is is like a 1 or 2 years of communication Condensed down into 30 days. And so it’s like, okay. I have 6 hours today. I’m gonna just write emails and write Facebook messages to people that I know and get the word out there, and getting the word out is the most important thing, to to launch a film. Like, We all know that Oppenheimer, the documentary, came out this this summer. Everyone’s heard of it whether they’ve seen it or not, and we want Witness Underground to be known, something you’re having us on your channel. This is actually the crowd part of the crowdfunding right now being on your on your show, and, and it’s it’s another way.
Scott Homan [01:13:16]:
Yeah. Like, that that’s the main point. Marketing, condensed, and then raise a bit of money to, like, actually push it out in the world and cover those finishing costs finishing
Nancy Norbeck [01:13:27]:
It must be more challenging doing this on your own.
Scott Homan [01:13:30]:
Making a movie?
Nancy Norbeck [01:13:32]:
Well or to get it distributed.
Scott Homan [01:13:34]:
Oh, it is. Yeah. Well, okay. It’s a whole a whole thing to talk about. We spent 3 years going from, like, concept, shoot, Concept crowdfund, shoot, edit the film, and have a complete film that we can go to the film festivals with. And it’s been a little over two and a half years Trying to figure out how to how to distribute it, and I’ve read some books on that, rise of the film entrepreneur by Alex Ferrari, huge fan of that. He’s like, go full indie. It’s a better way.
Scott Homan [01:14:00]:
Own your art. Complete a 100% ownership of the intellectual property. If you get a distribution deal, make sure it fits these criteria. None almost of them do, and you have to fight. You have to get a lawyer before you start the relationship, to get, like, it to be just because they want, like, $30,000 up front or 10,000 plus 20% of the first, you know, and then and then they take 30% forever. And it’s just like, oh my god. Like, they’re just and and they might shelve it. They might not even put it out, and they don’t they will never market it they have a 100 other films or a 1000 other films in their catalog.
Scott Homan [01:14:29]:
So it’s like all these, like, pitfalls and, like, are these a parasitic group? Who’s taking 10% this time? You know? Like, what’s and Are they doing anything for that 10%? Will they actually do anything for the future? So it I’ve I’ve been really navigating. I met a lot of indie filmmakers who have Found a successful way to do this, and, they’ve been guiding our process. And the person who and one of the people is actually on our team now that’s helped. He’s he’s the Kickstarter guy, so I’ll give him a little props. Justin Giddings. He we he helped us get into all the film festivals, and so he has a different project for that. And so this is like, hey. Get let’s work together.
Scott Homan [01:15:05]:
He’s now on our team forever to do the film release, and he’s done, like, 300 plus films. And, Yeah. So it is a lot harder, but what I found is that even if you hire someone in the lower to mid tiers in the distribution world, it’s not a the higher ones won’t necessarily get you because There’s a whole it’s a whole it’s a whole thing. All the sausages made. But, even if you get in a distribution plan with a company who will do Supposedly do all the work to getting it out in the world for you. They’re not necessarily a good partner, and they might not ever do any marketing. And they might There’s a number of ways for them to suck up all the profits from the film and and just use you as their, use me as a filmmaker, us as a filmmaking group for their salaries rather than benefit mutually benefit from the film being seen, earning money for both of us. Right.
Scott Homan [01:15:52]:
And so when I’ve talked to all the people I’ve talked to, like, This is indie is a 100% better. It’s more work, and but then you’ll have this other life skill, and you can do your 2nd indie funded by the first one. So, you know, we’re all excited about what we’re gonna do after this. Like, we wanna go make the social impact we intended on with this movie, with that Windows Underground, but we also wanna make more art because we love it, and it’s Mhmm. We’ve all learned all the skills to do it, and it’s exciting to make the next thing. So we’re kind of, like, also finding our team. Like, people come out of the woodwork, like, oh my god. This project’s so cool.
Scott Homan [01:16:21]:
How may I get involved? A lot of authors have stepped up in there. Crowdfunding’s a lot of writing. So, like, that also kind of makes sense. Like, musicians aren’t exactly thrilled about writing people, but Writers are super thrilled about writing people since Talking
Ryan Sutter [01:16:33]:
about Scott.
Scott Homan [01:16:35]:
Wait. You’re a little of both, Ryan. You know, the author and the musicians.
Nancy Norbeck [01:16:41]:
So I will put the link to the Kickstarter in the show notes, but can you just give everybody a sense of, like, what the timing is and what you’re hoping for?
Scott Homan [01:16:47]:
So So right now, we’re at the beginning of November. We have until November 17, 2023 to get our goal met, which is $20,000 worth 59%, And the URL for that redirects. You can search for Witness Underground on Kickstarter, but it’s witnessunderground.com, and that’s our website. So that that will have use Utility in your show for years to come. That website is where you’ll find all the information about the film and the podcast, Wind Center Ground podcast. Right now, it’s, yeah, 2 week time frame To close the gap on I think it’s $8,000 left to hit our goal.
Nancy Norbeck [01:17:19]:
Okay. And then when are you hoping to actually have it on different streaming sites?
Scott Homan [01:17:25]:
Well, it’s gonna be a bit of a piecemeal thing with self distribution, any distribution. So we actually got a deal, which is super exciting, that already took place, And it start it’s a process started. We sent them everything they asked for. We sent a contract to get it into libraries in Australia, New Zealand, and USA. So that will be an educational piece of it, and there’s a few other pieces of the puzzle, like getting on Delta Airlines or Air Canada is like one of the documentaries in the you know, 4 documentaries that they might have on a flight. That kind of thing is a avenue. We’re shooting for 2 b, which is a ad based streaming service It’s really popular. It’s they have, like, 1% of the planet’s market share on streaming, but they actually pay their filmmakers.
Scott Homan [01:18:02]:
That’s, like, target number one is get something that can sustain our company, because we you have to build a company as well to, like, run to for every single film you make. So I have, like, a separate LLC for Wind’s Underground. So we wanna make it financially viable. It’s like, can we do that? How do you do that? So we’re, like, working that out, and, eventually, it’ll end up on Amazon and Apple which pay, like, 1 penny per hour of viewing, and that they’re, like, the worst place to get, and they’re very I mean, for me, I think they’re kinda parasitic. Yep. I pay Amazon to watch films only. I don’t even buy stuff, And I can’t even find a film that’s actually included in Amazon.
Scott Homan [01:18:35]:
So I don’t even know what’s going on there. So, you know, we eventually wanna get on the name household named service that everyone’s paying subscriptions for, but they’re actually terrible deals for filmmaker. But, yeah, there’s, like, 40 there’s 40 kind of target, well, We’re using Filmhub to give you full understanding of what we’re using, and they have access to, like, 40 different streaming services. And they’re always expanding that. And so the 2 is on there. 2 is top of the list. Do we
Ryan Sutter [01:19:00]:
think November, December will start to have availability. Right? Like, not long after the Kickstarter.
Scott Homan [01:19:07]:
Exactly. Yeah. Hoping in December, for the holidays. Hopefully, people have be tired of hanging out with their family. They’re gonna wanna watch an amazing movie.
Ryan Sutter [01:19:15]:
Yeah. It’s a Witness Underground Christmas, everybody.
Nancy Norbeck [01:19:19]:
If you wanna know where the term nuclear gopher came from
Scott Homan [01:19:24]:
One of the, Interesting things about this campaign is we’ve been this isn’t like we just threw this together, and it’s like you’re just giving us money to help us because you believe in the project. You can you’re buying the film. You gotta download, November 17th, and there’s a few things we need to make still, but we’re in the process of cutting them, which is, like, all the full interviews to the movie, director commentary. The soundtrack is really, really special. What’s cool about that is, like, I as a filmmaker, I don’t have access to their music. They gave me access on the contract for the film itself and for marketing the film. But As far as the music goes, like, you’re funding the artists themselves with the soundtrack, and it’s an amazing soundtrack. I’m super excited.
Scott Homan [01:20:04]:
We’ve been talking about that for years. We have 32 albums in the Kickstarter. So, like, You’re buying the movie, you’re gonna get it. You’re buying all the extra stuff that we’re so we’ve been dreaming to make and make available, and it’s now gonna be available Right now, like, as soon as the car as soon as we hit our number, you’re gonna and and we charge you. You’re gonna get all this stuff, and that’s November 17th is when that happens. So you’re actually pledging support. You’re not getting charged Until we are successful. And, a lot of all these artists, the 32 albums, the 9 books that are available are all donated art to support the project and support the release of the film.
Scott Homan [01:20:37]:
And so you’re getting something, Fairmont, and it’s everything we’ve ever dreamed to give for to relate it to this project, and it’s something that will hopefully, you’ll appreciate, and it’ll change your life. And you can it’ll be the soundtrack of your life, and then books will impress you. And, like, I’m I just it’s, like, such a beautiful coming together of all these artists In support of the release of this movie because they benefit. They they value it.
Nancy Norbeck [01:20:58]:
That’s fantastic. Well, I hope That you get there and more between now 17th. And I know we’re we’re at time, so I really appreciate you both coming and talking with me. This has been a really cool conversation.
Ryan Sutter [01:21:15]:
It’s been really great. Thanks for having us, Nancy.
Scott Homan [01:21:18]:
Really refreshing conversation.
Nancy Norbeck [01:21:20]:
That’s our episode. My thanks to Scott Homan and Ryan Sutter for joining me, and to you for listening. Please leave a review for this episode. There is a link in your podcast app. And in it, tell us how your creativity has given you strength when you’ve needed it most. If you found this conversation valuable and especially if you know someone who could relate to Ryan’s story, please share it with a friend. Thanks so much. If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now, Join me at the spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage.
Nancy Norbeck [01:21:59]:
It’s free, and it’s where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners. The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, Please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.