Serial podcaster Jesse Jackson hosts shows on topics from Doctor Who to Babylon 5 to John Hiatt to Bruce Springsteen. I met Jesse when I appeared on his show, Set Lusting Bruce, where instead of Springsteen, I talked about my deep affection for the Norwegian band a-Ha. I wanted to hear about Jesse’s creative adventures in both fandom and podcasting, and we talk about why you should stop thinking about trying something new and just do it, what we’ve learned from our podcast experiences, and why everyone has a story that deserves to be heard. And there might be a little dishing about Doctor Who in the mix, too.
Episode breakdown:
06:54 Reading as a safe place, friendship, discovery, transition to e-books.
14:07 Nostalgia for old Doctor Who novel experiences.
16:07 All access streaming vs. the element of surprise.
24:39 Jesse’s podcast explores music and creativity, over 1000 episodes.
26:23 Embrace starting something new, let it unfold.
32:51 Prepping podcast guests.
38:21 2015 film “Springsteen and I” inspired Jesse’s podcast.
44:00 Jesse encourages listeners to hear Sarah Gregory’s story.
51:27 Ups and downs of responding to feedback.
57:14 Trying new things is okay, even if difficult.
01:01:28 Follow your own creative voice, seek feedback.
01:08:25 Podcasting Doctor Who.
Please leave a review and in it, tell us how about a time when starting a new creative endeavor made a difference in your life.
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Transcript: Jesse Jackson
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Before we get started, I want to let you know about a way to hang out with me online. If there’s one thing I know for sure, it’s that when ordinary people engage their creativity, they connect with their joy and their deepest selves come to life. I’ve started a newsletter called The Spark.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:36]:
It’s a place for me to experiment with my writing and share it with an audience and also a place to get to know you better. I’m using the Substack platform because it offer some really cool ways to connect with readers, including comments and chats. I’d love for you to join me as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage. Because it’s an experiment, you never know what sort of thing I might share on this park, and honestly, neither do I. Could be my thoughts on something I’ve noticed recently, a poem, a response to a photo or a piece of music, or just something completely unexpected. It’s always accessible, always personal, and usually has something to do with creativity. The spark is where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners too, so you really want to be there to hear what’s happening. It is totally free to subscribe, and you can find a link to the spark in your podcast app.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:26]:
So sign up today. I can’t wait to see you there. Podcaster Jesse Jackson hosts shows on topics from doctor who to Babylon 5 to musician John Hiatt to Bruce Springsteen. I met Jesse when I appeared on his show set lusting Bruce, where instead of Springsteen, I talked about my deep affection for the Norwegian band, I wanted to hear about Jesse’s creative adventures in both fandom and podcasting, and we talk about everything from why you should stop thinking about trying something new and just do it, what we’ve both learned from our podcast experiences, and why everyone has a story that deserves to be heard. And there might just be a little dishing about doctor who in the mix extro Here’s my conversation with Jesse Jackson. Jesse, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Jesse Jackson [00:02:18]:
Thank you, Nancy. Excited to be here. I think curiosity is a good thing, and, and too often we don’t follow it, Do we. So good job for you bringing this out.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:31]:
Amen to that. So I start everybody off with the same question, which is, were you a creative kid, or did you discover your creative side later on?
Jesse Jackson [00:02:40]:
I was a kid who loved reading. I was not someone who liked to draw or do Legos or Tinkertoys. I mean, though, like, we had Tinkertoys, and I remember the, oh, what was the Mattel, creepy crawlers, right, where you you would put in stuff and everything. But all my creativity was in was in reading. I I wasn’t I thought about writing, but I got I was lazy. It was too hard to try to write a story. But I always, in my mind, was thinking of stories and exploring stories, and I I’ve always had my book My nose in a book. I remember once we went to Mammoth Cave on a church trip, and, my mom didn’t go with us.
Jesse Jackson [00:03:35]:
My dad did. And, he was he was talking about something that someone bought, like some souvenir. And Mom said, oh, what did Jesse Wayne buy? He said a GD comic book, which I did. I saw a comic book there in the gift shop that I didn’t have, and I bought it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:55]:
Well, there you go. So so then where did reading take you?
Jesse Jackson [00:04:03]:
So I’ve done a lot of thinking on this, Nancy. I was my mom was a very big mamas and daddies girl. Mhmm. She did not like to be away from her family. My dad was in the military, so I can remember Christmases where he couldn’t get off, But she would doesn’t matter. Pull the kids in the car, drive down to Louisiana because I’m gonna spend Christmas with my mom and dad. So So I I counted once. I went to 12 different schools between kindergarten and 8th grade.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:46]:
Wow.
Jesse Jackson [00:04:47]:
Yeah. Because my mom would pick me up and move, like, in a minute. I I couple of years, we went to 3 different schools. And So reading I learned very quickly that it was it was not smart to make friends Because you’re going to have to leave them. Mhmm. And that’s gonna hurt. So books became my friends. The books were where I kept company, whether it was comic books.
Jesse Jackson [00:05:17]:
And I read every kind of superhero comic book, Richie Rich, Archie, Casper the Friendly Ghost. And then, you know, once I found novels, you know, and I would start Just I would go through phases. Like, I would I was always someone who went to the the elementary school library or the High school library, the local library, and just would find books and just grab whether they were mythology or, you know, different. I’d find a if I liked an author, I would just go through everything I could find from them. Went to a stage where I adored, I still do, Isaac Asimov collections of short stories and everything and then and things he did. So reading gave me friends.
Nancy Norbeck [00:06:05]:
Mhmm.
Jesse Jackson [00:06:06]:
Reading gave me worlds. We were of fact, this is I was in a podcast just recently Talking about my my mom had a very violent, extro temper. And I remember as a adult, my dad told me, yeah. I sometimes worried leaving you kids alone. Like, what would she do? Like, can you let us alone? Like, like, the like, let me unpack that for a minute. But so Reading was where you reading was quiet. Like, you know, she couldn’t She couldn’t scream at you because the TV was too loud or you were playing too loud. If you’re reading, you’re quiet.
Jesse Jackson [00:06:54]:
So it gave me a safe place to hide, a safe place to go, friends, and, and I think it’s, Like, I pretended being a member of the Legion Superheroes. I thought it would be cool to be a hearty boy and go discover mysteries. I remember one of my first books was a timber trail riding club where this guy learned had never ridden a horse, and he started working Ernie learned how to ride a horse and made friends. So, that’s what reading came to me about. And I still am a a reader. I have, I I was a late kind of I I did not grab onto a Kindle. I liked a physical book. I liked having something, you know, physical that I could hold my hand till I realized that with the Internet, I could start a book on my Kindle, and then later that day or the next day, pull up at the same place on my Kindle app on my phone.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:03]:
Mhmm.
Jesse Jackson [00:08:03]:
And I went, oh my goodness. Like, I’m never without a book now.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:07]:
Yeah.
Jesse Jackson [00:08:08]:
And so then I still have and, You know, if you look behind me, I have rows of actual physical books, but I do that is the the beauty of a Kindle Or a nook or whatever electronic reader you use is that instead of having to pick 6 or 8 books on a weekend trip, You just bring your Kindle, and you have a library with you. Yep.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. It is the most magical thing.
Jesse Jackson [00:08:36]:
Yeah. And, you know, when we go back. Right? Like, I could watch I can now see any Star Trek episode I want. I can And I remember when my wife bought me the 1st Kindle, and And I I had not read I bought the 1st episode 1st book of the Hunger Games trilogy, And I finished it, and then they had a sneak preview for the 2nd book. And then it’s like, do you wanna buy this book? And you pushed 1 button, and poof, it’s there. I went, okay. This is dangerous. This is dangerous.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:19]:
You know, that’s funny because that was the 1st book I read for Kindle too, but I read it on my iPad.
Jesse Jackson [00:09:25]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:25]:
Because I didn’t have a Kindle yet, and that was when I decided that I wanted the Kindle because the iPad was too heavy.
Jesse Jackson [00:09:32]:
Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:32]:
Yeah. But that was that was my 1st Kindle book too.
Jesse Jackson [00:09:36]:
Yeah. And, you know, I And the other thing is, this is very sexist, and I apologize, but I’ve heard this quote years ago, and I think it’s so true. I buy books the way some women buy shoes. And and I realized that slightly sexist, but the idea is right. I I just want it because I want it. Right? Like, I feel like you know, I I just I I I want to own that book. And part of the joy of a Kindle is you can say, well, I’ll put this on my to purchase list. So I don’t have to pay for it now, but I know that if I wanted to get it For 8.99 or 15.99, it could be there immediately.
Jesse Jackson [00:10:27]:
Like, I haven’t bought the new Stephen King book, Holly, yet because I know I’m not ready to read it. And and 8 years ago, I would doesn’t matter. Still gotta buy it. It’s a new Stephen King book. Order it. And now that I’m like, no. No. No.
Jesse Jackson [00:10:42]:
I can wait till I’m ready to buy it, and I don’t have to go to a bookstore. I can just go to my Kindle, to my app, and order it, and it’s
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:52]:
Right. Right. Though the other great thing about the Kindle, of course, is that you can have 2,000 books and not have to store them anywhere.
Jesse Jackson [00:11:03]:
Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:05]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I had to store all the books that are on my Kindle, I’d be in so much trouble.
Jesse Jackson [00:11:14]:
It is. And, you know, there’s also a beauty to, you know, I feel like rereading this book. Today, we’re recording this. Todd Goldberg has a new book out, and he is a detective writer, and it’s the 4th book in his gangster trilogy. And he explains why He has 4 books in his trilogy in an interview that he did with me, but he mentioned there’s one of the characters in this book was in a short story of his previous collection. And I went, oh, so I could pull up the Kindle, read that extro again. Oh, yeah. It sure was.
Jesse Jackson [00:11:57]:
It’s good to see her again. So yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:59]:
Yep. Super easy.
Jesse Jackson [00:12:03]:
Mhmm. Almost too Absolutely.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:05]:
A little terrifying. Yeah. But we’ve lost the joy of going to bookstores or at least I have. You know, I used to live in bookstores. Even if I didn’t buy anything, it was the most magical thing to just go and look Even if I had just been there 3 days ago, you know, just to go and see what was on the shelves and pick things up and read the backs and flip through them, and I don’t do that anymore, and it makes me really sad when I think about that.
Jesse Jackson [00:12:33]:
You know, Nancy, there is, I remember people who would have collections in an index card kept in their wallet or their purse of books they were missing in a series. Mhmm. Right? So I’d go to the used bookstore, look for it. I think it’s a common story for people who are my age and that When you found the new artist, you would go to the whether it’s a a writer or a musician, you had that same thing. You would go to the music store, and you would go to where the albums were, and you’d look up their album.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:17]:
Yeah.
Jesse Jackson [00:13:17]:
You know, the It’s a v or a b or a t or an x. And so, like, for me, in 77, I discovered the Beach Boys. So every record store I went. I went to Bee’s and just flipped through looking. Oh, I don’t have this one
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:34]:
Mhmm.
Jesse Jackson [00:13:34]:
And pick it up. Now then, It’s just there. There is just, oh, I wanna hear this. Oh, let me stream it. It’s on Spotify. It’s on Amazon Music. And, oh, if I really like it, I can order it. And the same issue you have, where do I store all my physical DVD, you know, CDs? You know, they’re they’re now in the cloud, and you have all the music.
Jesse Jackson [00:13:59]:
So yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. You you really lose that whole thing.
Jesse Jackson [00:14:05]:
Yes. I don’t
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:07]:
I don’t know. I can’t imagine, because now that we’re talking about this, I’m I’m kind of picture again. We were saying before we got started that, you know, I was just trying to explain to my 11 year old nephew that Back in the day before we could stream old Doctor Who episodes, we would read the Target novels, which, you know, to an 11 year old, I might as well have said that we’ve read them on stone tablets or something. And and yet, you know, trying to imagine Being 11 and and being able to just pick up the remote and pull up whatever you want is such a radically different experience from, you know, the that moment of, you know, Walking into the Walden books and hoping that you would find any doctor who novel, much less one that you didn’t have. Right? I mean, it was like this treasure hunt where you didn’t even know exactly what you were looking for. It was just something different. You know, something that I already know that I don’t have. And you might find 3 of them and maybe 1 of them you didn’t have if you were lucky.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:23]:
You know? But there was such a thrill in that because you didn’t know what you would find. And now, Again, this makes me feel like I should, you know, get out my blue hair and my cane, but it almost seems too easy. You know? Like, there’s there’s no excitement of, will I find this cool thing today? Because you know it’s all there. You know? And then the same thing with the record store. You know? Is there a new album out? Is there a a new thing that I’m gonna stumble on? Because that was the thing of of going into the record store or going into the bookstore. You’re looking for this thing, but you stumble on this other thing that you didn’t expect to find, and, hey, this sounds cool. I’m gonna try this.
Jesse Jackson [00:16:07]:
Yeah. The other thing we’ve lost, Nancy, is the surprise. Mhmm. Like, We are going to know in fact, we are I will not speak for you, but I will speak for Charles and I who did the doctor podcast. You know, we’re irritated. They haven’t announced when the new specials are coming on. We’re like, come on. Let’s go.
Jesse Jackson [00:16:28]:
What are you gonna do this? There was a time, right, where you you didn’t know what was coming on till you got the TV guide the the week before.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:39]:
Right.
Jesse Jackson [00:16:39]:
You know, or that you know, and much less, there you go to the bookstore. There’s a new Stephen King novel. I didn’t know there was a new Stephen King novel. I didn’t know. And now then, we know months in advance. You know the day, it can be delivered to our Kindle or if you want the hardback. You know, I still buy a lot of music on physical discs just because I’m an old fart. And, actually, there’s a practical reason why I’m answering.
Jesse Jackson [00:17:13]:
So I have a 2012 Mitsubishi Lancer, and that model came with a hard drive. Strive. So if you put a CD in the CD player, it burns it automatically to a hard drive, So then you didn’t have to carry the CD. So I have, like, I have, like, 200 CDs on this hard drive that I could listen to anytime, right, like, if I want. How cool. So yes. So that also means, At this point, I’m like, do I really wanna trade my car in? Because I’ve got I like, do I even have those CDs anymore? And I’ve been and and I realize it’s Practically the same thing with your iPhone. Right? But, but it just there is that yeah.
Jesse Jackson [00:17:59]:
Like, I have Bruce Springsteen’s. I had bought his autobiography on CD, and so and you had to tell it not to record. Like, When you put it in, it immediately starts recording is the default. So you would have to say, no. Don’t record this. So yeah. So I have yeah. So, Yeah.
Jesse Jackson [00:18:19]:
It’s kinda fun that I have this, you know, and there’s some CDs that I haven’t listened to for a while. But every once in a while, I will turn off the podcast, and we’ll just pull up, and there is a way to say, scramble and shuffle to where we’ll go through just randomly pick a song off every CD. And when I’m on a trip, sometimes I do that just to go, wow. I haven’t heard that song forever, or, wow. That song sucks. Why is that on yours?
Nancy Norbeck [00:18:54]:
So there’s a little element of surprise there, but that is really cool. I had no idea that there was ever a car that had a system that did that.
Jesse Jackson [00:19:01]:
Yes. Yeah. So I have this yeah. And I and I don’t I’m I’m sure there is a limit to the CD, the drive, but it is so far, it’s not. And I you know, it it’s hilarious. And it lets you pick, like, my new music obsession is a guy named Jason Isbell. And so I was able to put all of his, CDs into 1 playlist just like it would on my phone. And when I was driving down to Austin to see him perform live, like, for the couple weeks before, I did nothing but listen to Jason just to get me ready for the concert.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:37]:
That is so cool. I will confess, I still buy stuff on on CD sometimes too because I live near the Princeton Record Exchange. Okay. There is a real element of surprise there because you never know what you’ll find on their shelves, especially If you dig through their uncategorized budget CD section
Jesse Jackson [00:19:55]:
Mhmm. You can
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:56]:
find all sorts of wild gems in there. But I also, speaking of being an old fart, don’t do I I don’t have a Spotify subscription or an Apple Music subscription or anything like that because I’m the kind of person that I wanna, like, listen to this album for a while, and I’ll listen to it for for a while. And then I’ll decide that I wanna switch to something else and, you know, I I’ll just go and say, this This is the album I wanna listen to. If I don’t have it, I’ll grab it from Apple or Amazon or wherever. And I don’t do that enough To be worth blowing the money on the subscription. So
Jesse Jackson [00:20:34]:
I I hear you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:34]:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I’m very weird that way too.
Jesse Jackson [00:20:38]:
Not at all.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:41]:
Which is, you know, what I what I did with a bunch of stuff after I talked to you a couple months ago to come up with a playlist for you. But,
Jesse Jackson [00:20:50]:
By the way, I’ve been enjoying that. I I I have liked it. I’m not sure. They’re very different, but I’ve enjoyed the playlist, and I’m I’m gonna I’m gonna spend a little more time with it. And then I’m gonna have you come on, and we’re gonna talk about about why you picked these songs. I’ll tell you what I thought about them, but I’ve been enjoying that. That’s been a lot of fun. I’ve had, you did that for me, and then I had someone on who is a huge Todd Rundgren fan.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:18]:
Oh, wow.
Jesse Jackson [00:21:18]:
And so instead of just, hello, it’s me and, you know Mhmm. A cup of others, he, he sent me a deep Dive of Todd Reimers songs that I’m I’m gonna do that too. That’s fun. So
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:30]:
So so let’s actually let’s talk about that show because that’s how Jesse and I met is that I did one of Jesse’s 3 podcasts, which is amazing to me that you do 3 podcasts. It’s I get exhausted just thinking about trying to do 3 podcasts all at the same time.
Jesse Jackson [00:21:47]:
So, technically, I do 4.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:49]:
Oh my god.
Jesse Jackson [00:21:50]:
I know. Yeah. I felt bad. Like, should I just tell her? Can I tell her? Yes. So, yeah. I do a Doctor Who podcast, Next stop everywhere that is out every other Wednesday where my buddy, Charleston Skaggs, and I have been doing this, god, for Ever since Capaldi started, that was our 1st episode was right before he was gonna start. We did a welcome to Meet the host, and then we covered his very 1st episode. So wherever that was, we’ve been doing that.
Jesse Jackson [00:22:21]:
We will go weekly when it’s new episodes. And then On the off season, we go every other week, and we visit Classic Who, Modern Clue, Who. We will do We we haven’t done novels, but we have done plenty of the big finish audios
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:39]:
Mhmm.
Jesse Jackson [00:22:39]:
And we’ll talk about that. So that’s 1. The other one is next stop up the that’s next stop everywhere. Then last best hope for conversation, JKM Media is my buddies, Lou and Karen. I started out podcasting a podcast That was called the Scapecast, which is a Farscape podcast. Farscape was an Australian Mhmm. Science fiction show with Jim Henson, Muppets, And it’s a really, really good show. And Lou and Karen had seen every episode multiple times, and they were doing a rewatch.
Jesse Jackson [00:23:16]:
And their stick Was you had a rookie watching the episodes that didn’t know anything about it, and so I was the rookie. And we got all the way through the movie, and we had a wonderful time. Well, Lou got a complete set of Babylon 5 episodes for Christmas a couple years ago, And he says, you know, I’ve never watched Babylon 5. Do you wanna do a podcast? And we’re like, we don’t have time. We don’t have time. And finally, we just said we’re gonna make time. So He and Karen have never seen Babylon 5. I’ve seen every Babylon 5, so we have switched.
Jesse Jackson [00:23:51]:
And so we every week, we discuss a new episode of So to Babylon 5, for them, an old one for me, and then we do that for the 1st hour recording. Then the 2nd hour, just for fun, we randomly pick just the show. We right now, we’re going through 12 Monkeys. We went through the English. You know, we’ve we’ve done, the station 11. We just each of us takes turn picking a series to talk about, And we do that. So, then Perfectly Good Podcast is my smallest podcast as far as listeners, but it’s a sweet one. John Hyatt is one of my favorite musicians, that he is best known as a writer.
Jesse Jackson [00:24:39]:
His biggest hit Was Are You Ready for This Thing Called Love done by Monty Rait? And Sylvain Groff and I are going through every John, Hyatt song in alphabetical order, and so we do that, we do that weekly. Wow. We put out an episode for that. And then set less thing, Bruce, Which is the podcast that takes up most of the time where you and I meet, is a podcast dedicated to the power and magic of of music. I started out talking mostly to Bruce Springsteen fans, but over the years, I’ve adapted where I just like talking to people who are passionate about music or anything. Usually, we go in through a music angle for yourself. You you loved but we also talked about creativity and your podcast and everything. So we, So that’s where and that’s I’ve done over a 1000 episodes.
Jesse Jackson [00:25:43]:
I’ve been doing this since 2015, and I just have talked to people from around the world, from Russia, from Europe, UK, South Africa, You know, Canada, all over the US, and just talking to people about music and sharing stories, and it has truly been A a major blessing in my life, to hear how music has helped people so much to celebrate the good in their life and to get bad to get past the bad in their life.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:23]:
Yeah. That I can see how that would make sense, but also just just from my own experience. You know, I’ve been doing this for nearly 5 years now. And The range of people that I’ve been able to talk to, and I haven’t done nearly as many episodes as you, has been amazing. You know, you you start something like this and you really have no idea just where all it’s gonna take you, Which is part of why I think anybody who wants to start anything should just do it even if you don’t have the faintest idea, what you need, where it’s gonna go, especially if you don’t know where it’s gonna go. That’s okay. Let it let it take you where it wants to take you. But, you know, if you think about Trying something new, starting something new.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:14]:
This is one of the reasons you should do it because it it just you cannot predict The scope and variety and wonderfulness of the people that you will encounter and the things that you will learn from them, and it’s amazing.
Jesse Jackson [00:27:30]:
You know, Nancy, I’m so glad you said that. I see you know, I’m in different Facebook groups and Twitter Hangouts and stuff, and I’ll see people well, I’m thinking about starting a pod yes. I’m thinking about starting a podcast, and I always wanna go quit thinking about it and just do it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:46]:
Yeah.
Jesse Jackson [00:27:47]:
Right. And the other thing I think people make the mistake of is, is they invest a lot of money into equipment To start out with, like, no. No. No. You you know, you can you really can just do this very inexpensive.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:03]:
Mhmm.
Jesse Jackson [00:28:03]:
And just my my advice is make sure it’s a topic you wanna talk about Because you may not get any listeners to begin with, and that’s okay because you don’t care if it’s this topic you wanna discuss. To make sure it’s a topic broad enough that you’re not gonna run out of ideas. Right? Yeah. You you have to give it and you and you don’t You do need to be a little specific. Well, I’m just gonna have a general discussion topic. Okay. Well
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:32]:
That’s hard to sustain.
Jesse Jackson [00:28:34]:
Yeah. That yeah. Because you, Like, you gotta have a little bit of a hook. And 3, just do it. You know, just get out there, record it. The 1st episode’s gonna be bad. The 2nd episode will be a little better, and then you’ll continue. And I there are still times when I, sit there and go, god, I sound horrible.
Jesse Jackson [00:28:55]:
You know? Boy, that was dumb. But I have fun.
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:01]:
Yes. And, you know, the other thing that that I think probably stops people even if they don’t consciously realize it is that extro Everybody hates the sound of their own voice. You know, all joking aside. You know? Oh, that guy loves the sound of his own voice. Yeah. Not when you hear it on a recording. Right? It freaks you out. The fastest way to get over that is to start your own podcast and start listening to your episodes because, you know, you’re gonna cut out whatever, you know, edit down the beginning and the ending at the very least.
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:34]:
I I think it took maybe a month before it doesn’t bother me anymore. You just get used to it. So if it if if you’re thinking about starting a podcast and that freaks you out, just keep going in the knowledge that it won’t take that long before it just literally, you won’t even notice the difference anymore.
Jesse Jackson [00:29:53]:
I agree with you. I had the exception today. I was recording with a buddy at my lunch, and it was the last time he had joined me. He He said something after, he said, I’ve been thinking all day. I’m tired of talking pro wrestling because he does a pro wrestling podcast. I can’t wait to talk Bruce, and the first thing you do is ask me a wrestling question. And I went so So when I got him today, I said that I’m not gonna ask you about LA Knight, which is a new wrestler. And he laughed and I laughed, and I heard my laugh, and I heard me squealing.
Jesse Jackson [00:30:40]:
And I went, God. Sound horrible. It’s And it had been a while since I’ve had a problem with my voice. I agree with you. I I think all of us remember as a kid with a cassette tape Mhmm. And you’re going, that’s not my voice.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:53]:
Right.
Jesse Jackson [00:30:54]:
That isn’t what I sound like. And then someone explained, It’s because you hear yourself through the bones and all this other but, yeah, once you get used to editing, it’s like, yep. That’s that’s me. That’s it. That’s it. You know? And Linda will joke that’s Linda’s my wife every once in a while. She is not all the time, but every once in a while, I’ll, Oh, you got your podcaster voice. Like, she’ll walk by while I’m recording and like, oh, that’s a you must be talking serious because you’ve got your podcast voice on right now Versus my normal just, you know, high pitched visiting story.
Jesse Jackson [00:31:29]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:30]:
Yeah. So so do you think then that that the the Springsteen podcast is the one that that you’ve learned the most from?
Jesse Jackson [00:31:41]:
Yes. I learned a lot about editing. I also learned a lot about, Understanding sometimes it’s not going where you want it to go, and you have to control the conversation. Other times, What you think is going to be a great guest isn’t.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:08]:
Mhmm.
Jesse Jackson [00:32:09]:
And you’re like, okay. I’ve gotta cut bait, you know, politely. We’ll do this. I’ve, the other things I’ve learned that work really well for me, and I saw a discussion about this This week is someone said, do you give your guests the questions in advance? And there was a lot of people that said never. Never. I don’t want them prepared. I don’t want it. And, you know, I said, I give an agenda Because we’re gonna talk a specific about a musician, and often I have people joining me Who aren’t used to talking to in public or are used to talking about something else.
Jesse Jackson [00:32:51]:
They are A podcaster about curiosity or substance abuse or, you know, building a team. And so I wanna kinda give them an idea about, The topics that we’re gonna discuss. And most of my feedback from my guest is I really appreciate that, Jesse, because I kind of, you know, I and we never do it directly, and you’ve been a guest. We don’t oh, now it’s time to ask this Question. Mhmm. You just have a conversation, but you know in the back of your mind, he’s gonna ask me if I’ve ever seen this band live and how many times and, you know, and tell stories. And it gives the guest a chance to say, oh, yeah. I had this experience, and I wanna make sure I remember to tell it Because I think it’s a good story.
Jesse Jackson [00:33:37]:
Mhmm. Yeah. That’s the biggest thing I’ve learned. I I I have to remind myself all the time. I I I get caught up on the download numbers like everyone else. Like, wow. I was down gosh. June, no one was listening to this podcast.
Jesse Jackson [00:33:57]:
Like, what did I do wrong? And then In August, you know, it went up, and you’re like, okay. And so you realize that You just gotta put it out there and remember, you’re just doing this because you love doing it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:11]:
Do you find yourself because I send a notice that for some reason, The numbers are lower in July.
Jesse Jackson [00:34:19]:
Oh, yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:21]:
And and and I though for some reason, this year, they were higher. I don’t know. It was weird. But I find myself just kind of inventing reasons. Like, oh, everybody’s on vacation. It’s July. Everybody’s on vacation. And then, like, oh, September.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:36]:
Everybody’s back from vacation. It’s like, I have absolutely no way of knowing What’s going on in July or September? You know? But but the human brain just makes stuff up because you wanna know why the numbers are the way they are.
Jesse Jackson [00:34:52]:
So in from May to June, my downloads went in half percent less than Bruce Yeah. In half. And July, they went up a little bit more. But then in August, Like, it went higher than it was in May. So I’m like, okay. Are they playing catch up? Is it the summer? People are too busy to listen to a podcast. You know? So yeah. I I so I remember That there are themes that, business will go bad in the fall During the state fair here in Dallas, food people go to the fair.
Jesse Jackson [00:35:36]:
So, therefore, restaurant sales are down. You know, I’ll go get my haircut, and they’ll say, Yeah. We’re we had a uptick because school’s starting.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:46]:
Mhmm. So
Jesse Jackson [00:35:46]:
we got a lot more. But in the summer, Business is slower because people are on vacation. They don’t owe. So I think everyone does that, and there probably are cycles out there. My day gig is a, we offer roadside assistance in the RV industry, and Starting in spring break all the way till probably in the next week or so, you know, our volume just consistently goes up, and then starting 4th July, it starts slowly going down because people do less travel. But during the summer, and 4th July is our peak, We will be that will be the week around 4th July will be our busiest week every year.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:27]:
Wow. I never would have thought that there was, you know, roadside assistance specifically for RVs, but it makes perfect sense that there is.
Jesse Jackson [00:36:36]:
Yeah. Yeah. Carefree RVing is our slogan, and it’s such a, our owner is such He he loves the outdoors, and and this truly is about, you know, there’s pictures everywhere in our building about People camping and doing things outdoor, and, and they just kinda laugh at me that and Jesse’s idea of vacation is going to a Springsteen show.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:06]:
Hey. They know you well. You know? Maybe someday you’ll take an RV to a Springsteen show and
Jesse Jackson [00:37:14]:
There we go. Yes. Indeed. It’s all Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:17]:
It’s all good.
Jesse Jackson [00:37:18]:
Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:20]:
That’s all good.
Jesse Jackson [00:37:21]:
Yes. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:23]:
So I’m I’m especially curious because, You know, you’ve got you you mentioned at least 4 Okay. I’ve lost count. So
Jesse Jackson [00:37:36]:
Okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:37]:
You’ve got doctor who, Babylon 5, Farscape. So it’s at least 3 different really good Science fiction series.
Jesse Jackson [00:37:45]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:46]:
So so, obviously, you’ve got, like, a huge fandom factor in what you do. Right. And and I’m just curious, like, how How fandom I mean, I’m trying to figure out the right way to put this question together. Like, Fandom obviously had to come before the podcast. Right? Yes. But how has How has fandom influenced the podcast, and how has the podcast changed your approach to fandom? Does that make sense?
Jesse Jackson [00:38:21]:
It does. And I’ll I’ll actually do Bruce about this, that listing Bruce. 2015, A couple things happened. 1, Springsteen and I was a film that came out that was Just fans submitting snippets, videos of explaining why they loved Bruce Springsteen’s music, And it’s a wonderful film that, does a little bit of Springsteen in concert, but mostly Just his interaction with fans. And there’s a great couple that, He shares that we go to all these beautiful cities with all this art, with all these museums, and we spend all our time going to a Springsteen show because his wife’s the fan. He’s not. And they said if you had one thing to tell Bruce, what would you tell him? Make it shorter. Some of us are not enjoying it.
Jesse Jackson [00:39:28]:
And there’s a wonderful scene in the post script where Bruce, actually, they’re they’re at a he’s at a pub, and he sees them outside. Yes. You’re the guy that like my show. You’re the guy that like my show and brings them in. And, Bruce talks to him, and then He invites them to come back after the show, and he I’m sorry. He apologizes to the husband That he didn’t make it shorter. And, you know, and the husband is just, you know, like, no. No.
Jesse Jackson [00:39:59]:
No. I’ll pick it up. There’s no way I knew that. So, anyway, That happened, and I said those are interesting stories. Lynette Carolla, who was married to Adam Carolla at the time, did a podcast where she talked to famous friends of hers that were Springsteen fans, and they shared stories, and she stopped doing that. And I said, I wanna hear more of those stories. So I I went to the guy who owned our network at the time, And I said, I wanna do a Springsteen podcast. And he’s okay.
Jesse Jackson [00:40:32]:
What’s a Springsteen podcast? I said, I’m gonna talk to fans about Bruce Springsteen, and I’m gonna just get their stories. It’s okay. That sounds fine. So he hung up. He told his wife, Martha, Jesse wants to do a Bruce Springsteen podcast. I think we’ll get a season out of it. A season, Tim, is 12 episodes. I’m at a 10 80 and counting.
Jesse Jackson [00:40:54]:
And so So what I found is people usually don’t some people like talking about themselves. Some people enjoy visiting. Like, I I love telling stories. You can tell. So, but a lot of people don’t. But if you get them to talk about something they love Mhmm. They will open up. And and I can’t tell you how often That someone after they’ve been on the podcast says that was really different than I thought it was gonna be.
Jesse Jackson [00:41:37]:
That was a lot of fun. I I I’m I didn’t under I didn’t think we’d get that deep or that share, and And I think it’s because, you know, we kinda start with the music and then we share why is something it’s similar to your podcast. Right? Like, What about your curiosity and your creativity is stopping you? And what how do you push those, muscles. I remember you talking about when I had you on, right, that People like, well, I don’t have a creative bone in my body. And and and we talk about, yes, you do. It’s just been pushed out of you. You just don’t realize how different creative and you and I talked about, you know, there’s people who can cook without a cookbook
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:26]:
Yep.
Jesse Jackson [00:42:27]:
That would say I’m not creative.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:28]:
Yep.
Jesse Jackson [00:42:29]:
There are people that, yeah, that can tell stories and just make you laugh. Like, but I’m not a creative person. Yeah. You know, they we put ourselves in that box. Well, because I can’t draw or I can’t sculpture I can’t type out a short story, but there is the creativity is all around us, and there are people that You know, the people that decorate their house for every season, that’s a different kind of creativity That brings them joy, and it’s there all the time.
Nancy Norbeck [00:43:05]:
Mhmm. Yeah. And a lot of times, it’s Just that somebody told you you weren’t creative, and so you believed it.
Jesse Jackson [00:43:11]:
Yes. Yes. You’re you’re you don’t have an interesting story, And I tell all my potential guests, I’ve said everyone’s got a story, and it’s part of my duty To get them all on tape even though it’s not tape, but I’m old. Right? It’s the idea. And because, And and it does hurt sometimes, Nancy, when you get a really, really good story that people go, well, man, I don’t have anything like that, and I will make a point of it’s okay. In your own way, your story is just as important. It’s just as powerful. I I I recently had a podcast that I’m really, really proud of.
Jesse Jackson [00:44:00]:
And, I had they had been an article about Sarah, and, I was connect she was connected to me, and so I will urge if you never listen to any other set, less than Bruce Podcast. Dear listeners, go listen to Sarah Gregory’s story, and I will give you in very quick the bones of it. 20 years old, grandmother murdered by a friend of the family. Leads her to substance abuse, self medication. After many years, she got sober, but her but was, I’ll never forgive that man. I get don’t ask me to do that. I’ll do anything, but I’m not gonna do that. You need to do this to get healed.
Jesse Jackson [00:44:49]:
No. I don’t. I don’t. And she hears a Bruce Springsteen song called A Letter to You, and she heard it in the car, And she said it was like lightning striking her. She walked into her house and she started writing a letter, And she wrote a letter to the man who killed her grandmother that was in death row, and she shared all her feelings. Couple weeks later, he wrote back. She was scared to open the letter. Her her husband read it and said it’s okay.
Jesse Jackson [00:45:23]:
You can read it. They jumped. They continued corresponding. And 2 days before he was going to be executed, she was there. They spent time together. She his family forgave him because they said if You can forgive him. We can forgive him. Wow.
Jesse Jackson [00:45:42]:
And she one of the last things he looked at was her when he was executed. All because of a silly song.
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:51]:
Man.
Jesse Jackson [00:45:52]:
So I do not spoilers. I’ve just told the ending of the story. But hearing her story and hearing it break down is something amazing. I I just I I I was so impressed that she was able to share that story with me. And so then people like, well, gosh. I don’t have anything for that. I’m going, no. But the story extro of you seeing Bruce when you were 17, And then 30 years later, your 17 year old son is going to a Bruce show at the same stadium, Hearing the same song is a story needs to be shared.
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:32]:
Mhmm. Right? Right. Right. That doesn’t make your story any less interesting or worthy.
Jesse Jackson [00:46:38]:
Yeah. And and I think that’s, we we sit there and we You There is so much there is so much sadness in this world, and there is so much darkness. Anything that can bring positivity and light and joy in your life, You know, do it. If it’s if it’s coloring on a coloring book, you know, do it. If it’s Making bad looking pottery. It we don’t care. You know? And I I you know, they joke about, right, like, sing loud. Sing loud in the shower.
Jesse Jackson [00:47:19]:
Doesn’t matter whether you can sing, you know, good or bad. Just sing your song. And and I think That’s why I love your podcast is that you seem you are making the point to people, get out there and And light a candle instead of cursing the darkness, and that’s what I said. When I started this podcast, I wanted more spring scene stories, so in the spirit of lighting a candle, instead of cursing the darkness, I started myself. So do it. Do it, you know, because, you will be happier yourself, and you have no way of knowing the ripple effect of you doing this That could help someone else.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:03]:
That is so true. You know? I mean, like, you were talking about the numbers before. You can look at the numbers, but the numbers don’t really tell you anything. No. You know, the the sad thing but for all we know, maybe it’s Maybe it’s not a sad thing. You know, we don’t know unless somebody contacts us what the impact is From somebody listening to our podcast. We really have no clue. We’re basically shouting into the dark and hoping that it lands somewhere and does somebody some good.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:37]:
We have no clue at all. But And
Jesse Jackson [00:48:40]:
that is a frustrating, you know, and so you just kinda have to go. I I just was listening to, a podcast, History of Rock and Roll in 500 songs. Andrew Hickey is the cohost. He, he is doing this massive project. He is going to tell the history of Rock and roll and 500 songs, so he does this. And someone asked him what’s his favorite episode, and I’m I wish I could remember the title. But he said there was an episode where a young woman sent him a mail email and said, the person you mentioned raised me. They were my uncle, and I didn’t think anyone knew his story.
Jesse Jackson [00:49:26]:
And you, by sharing that story, because I had heard him tell it all the time, made me smile because someone knew that my uncle made music and now known. And but we don’t get that often. We don’t get emails from people or voice mails. Gosh. It’s hard to get an iTunes And iTunes review. I I’m serious, Nancy. Here is the frustration, listeners, and and and if you allow some self indulgent. Bruce Springsteen will turn 74 in September.
Jesse Jackson [00:50:01]:
And so September 23rd is his birthday. So I am currently trying to make an audio birthday card for Bruce. K? Here’s the voice mail. All you gotta do, call this number, say your name, where you’re from, happy birthday, Bruce. I’ve got 16 people who’ve left a message so far. Oh. I’m like I’m like, guys, it it literally is that easy. Dial the number.
Jesse Jackson [00:50:30]:
Leave a voice mail. You know? I’m not asking you to type out a letter and close a self addressed stamped envelope and Just, people are used to this is a one way communication, and they don’t think about, oh, well, yeah, you tell me you want, but you really don’t, And I’ll do someone else. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:49]:
Yeah. And that’s the it’s sad for something like that, And, unfortunately, this will go out after that date.
Jesse Jackson [00:50:57]:
That’s fine.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:58]:
You know? If you’re still collecting stuff, maybe maybe you’ll get
Jesse Jackson [00:51:01]:
a straggler.
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:02]:
But but, you know, I’m also thinking as we’re talking that in a way, maybe it’s a good thing that we don’t know the the effect Because we might alter what we do to try to create more of it, you know, and and it might become kind of artificial. So maybe it’s good that we’re kind of shouting into the dark and and doing our authentic thing and not trying so hard to control how it lands and where it goes.
Jesse Jackson [00:51:27]:
So I thank you for saying that because you asked what did I learn. Early in the podcast, I got a 1 star review on iTunes, and it said, host is okay, but he tells too many of the same stories. He should build an FAQ. And, first off, I didn’t have a website. And then I So I was self conscious for a while, and then I realized that, yes, my listener has heard the story. But in most cases, the person I’m having the conversation with hasn’t. So I will every once in a while, I’ll still say, okay. And for those of you who did this, you know, skip ahead a couple of seconds.
Jesse Jackson [00:52:19]:
And if it’s a really long story, I will edit it out. Like, I will say, okay. The The guest needed to hear the story, but my listener doesn’t, so I’ll edit that out. But that was I was self conscious. I was like, no. No. I can’t tell that story And, did funny. Someone on the John Hiatt podcast said, god.
Jesse Jackson [00:52:44]:
Jesse Shermitch and Bruce Springsteen a lot. And my cohost said, Does he not realize who you are? So I went a whole episode without mentioning Bruce. And and Sylvan laughed at me because she could see a couple places I was like And, so we now have made it a drinking game. Do you Are you aware of the drinking games, right, the different social media drinking games?
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:12]:
Yeah.
Jesse Jackson [00:53:13]:
Yeah. Like, especially in fandom. Mhmm. So we now say and speaking of Bruce Springsteen, take a drink. And and and we got to thinking, I hope people understand, like, you know, we’re that we’re it doesn’t have to be alcoholic beverages.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:28]:
We’re not suggesting you get completely, you know Yeah. Dangerously drunk while you listen to this podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Well and that that’s such a great illustration extro because we do. We hear we hear that piece of feedback and we think, I’ve done this horrible thing and I must change the way that I am. And, you know, you do too much of that and you totally lose track of who you are and what you were trying to do in the 1st place. So, you know, feedback can be great to a certain extent as long as you don’t lose track of yourself and what you’re trying to do in the process.
Jesse Jackson [00:54:03]:
So I heard a story from my, my sister-in-law. And it’s kind of a stretch, but I it I think it’s close enough. She says kids can’t win. And she says if you’re in the kitchen working And your kid comes in and says, hey, mom. Can I get a sandwich? I’m can’t you see I’m busy? You know? And so then you go, you sit down On the in the living room. Mom, can I get a sandwich? I was just in the kitchen. Why didn’t you ask me? Right? Mhmm. Often, that’s what happens with us.
Jesse Jackson [00:54:42]:
Right? Well, I think it should be shorter, and the next listener, well, I think it should be longer. I think you should ask these questions or, no, you shouldn’t ask these questions. I had Someone I end every podcast with the Merry question as you very well aware. And I got someone the other day that said because someone said I haven’t listened to the song, Jesse. I can’t Answer. And I’m like, okay. No problem.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:06]:
Anybody about the Mary question.
Jesse Jackson [00:55:08]:
I will. Jay Armstrong is a honors English teacher that is now retired. When he was teaching, he would give his, students the lyrics to Bruce Springsteen’s song Thunder Road. And, the song ends with, this is a town full of losers. We’re pulling out of here to win. But the actual lyrics is I’m pulling out of here to win. And the question is, does Mary, who is he singing to get in the car at the end of the song? It is very vague in the actual lyrics, and you can make your own decision. And so that has gotten to be my shtick of, You know, I end every podcast with that question.
Jesse Jackson [00:55:49]:
Whether you’re a Springsteen fan or not, I I tell them in advance, listen to it. And so every once in a while, someone will say, I didn’t listen to the song, Jesse. I don’t can’t answer. Okay. And I I don’t like chastise. I’m like, okay. Fine. Had someone said, I don’t think you should let them be on the podcast that they didn’t do the homework.
Jesse Jackson [00:56:09]:
I’m like, it’s okay. It’s okay. You know? Sure. Now my favorite is someone who says, I don’t know, but I’ll get back to you. And then, like, Later. Okay, Jesse. I’m ready to answer the question. Like, okay.
Jesse Jackson [00:56:24]:
Do you wanna me to call you and we record it? Do you wanna email the answer? They they do, and and I’ve seen them. You know, they’ll email me and, like, hey, Jesse. This is blank. I just wanna let you know when I was on your podcast, I didn’t have the answer. And often, because we have that backlog, right, I’m able just to edit it here.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:43]:
Right. Right. Oh, that’s funny.
Jesse Jackson [00:56:45]:
Yeah. That is. Yes. So that’s the merry question.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:49]:
That’s the merry question. Yeah. It can that can be a challenging question too.
Jesse Jackson [00:56:56]:
Yes. Yeah. And, you know, and I think the other thing since we’re talking about right curiosity and creativity is Asking questions why. And and doing this, why have I always done it this way?
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:14]:
Mhmm.
Jesse Jackson [00:57:14]:
And should I try something different? You know, the old thing, if it’s not broke, don’t fix it. But there is sometimes Where yeah. If it is broke, fix it. You know? If it is if it doesn’t isn’t broke, do break. Right? Yeah. So I think, you know, I think all of us extremes on either side are bad, but the idea of trying something new and trying something different, and it’s okay if you’re bad at it. Right. It’s okay to if you’ve always wanted to learn a musical instrument, like, it’s something I’ve wanted to do at the back of my mind, and I just haven’t taken time because I’m doing 4 podcasts a week and and plus, you know, and reading way too much.
Jesse Jackson [00:57:55]:
But I have kicked around buying, like, a, like, a Ukulele and just playing with that just to have fun playing. Every once in a while, I don’t know about you, but I’ll see someone what would you tell 12 year old you? And my I always say my I’d say learn the guitar, listen to more Bruce Springsteen, And, you know, and and, and walk a little bit more, to try to lose a little weight Because the older you are, harder it is. But, yes, but listen to more Bruce Springsteen learn the guitar. Forget buying Apple stock. That’s the thing
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:36]:
yeah. Yeah. It it is an interesting balance to strike. You know? Like, when you were talking about, You know, everybody has an opinion. It should be longer. It should be shorter and whatever. It kind of reminds me of, you know, listening too much to people in focus groups, because there are people who will sit down and listen to feedback that is like all of that. And, you know, well, 1 person said this, and 1 person said the opposite, and another person said something completely random and bizarre.
Nancy Norbeck [00:59:01]:
And obviously, we should try to do all of it. Well, you can’t do all of it. You know, you try to do all of it, you’re gonna end up with some strange, weird, mutant thing that makes no sense to anyone. So you have to kind of pick your battles there. You have to figure out what makes the most sense for what you’re trying to do. But but yeah. It it’s interesting because it’s It’s worth challenging yourself. It’s worth getting out of your comfort zone, but there’s also something to be said for this is the way that works for me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:59:32]:
Yeah. And so it’s you you kinda gotta just feel for the moment. Is this a moment that makes more sense to do it the way that works for me, or is this the moment that makes more sense to try something else?
Jesse Jackson [00:59:45]:
You know Yeah. Nancy, right now, there’s a little bit, There is a small but vocal group of Springsteen fandoms that are not happy with The songs he’s performing on the tour. Set lusting Bruce was based off the premise that when Bruce tours, often, he changes the set list fairly often. So, therefore, if you aren’t on If you aren’t in the arena and you’re following on social media, instead of set listing, you start become set lusting. Like, oh, I can’t believe he’s playing that song. I wish extro there. And so he’s not doing a lot of that this time. And there are people that, well, He should stop playing this song and start playing that song instead.
Jesse Jackson [01:00:40]:
And my premise has always been Bruce should play what he wants. You know, but just he’s you know, his job is to entertain us and either like the show or you don’t. But I do throw this. I go, you realize none of us will agree on which songs he has to drop and which ones he puts back in. The song that you go, oh, this is absolutely has to stay on, I may go, we could skip that one and vice versa. And that’s the you so I you know, the idea well, if What I want to hear is different than what he should do. Right? Mhmm. And You can’t you can give the advice.
Jesse Jackson [01:01:28]:
Well, if I was doing this, this is what I would do, But, ultimately, you’ve got to follow your own creative voice, and you have to, Like, let’s say you’re writing. Right? You you you certainly there will be editors, and there’ll be people reviewing it and going it, but you have to The best advice I and I have someone saying, like, I don’t need you to tell me, I I need you to tell me if the story doesn’t make sense, not whether you like the story or not. Right? Like Mhmm. Are you like, That’s the best advice. Like, I don’t understand why this character is doing this. Okay. Well, that will be revealed later. You’re where you should be or, oh, That should be very obvious by this now while they’re doing that.
Jesse Jackson [01:02:19]:
If you don’t get that, that means I’ve missed something in the storytelling. Is an example of, right, the kind of creative feedback that’s really healthy versus well, no. I think well, no. I think she should go with Roger, You know, and you’ve got her going with Sarah. Well, that’s the story I wanna tell. I wanna tell her going with Sarah.
Nancy Norbeck [01:02:40]:
Yeah. And that reminds me of something that I’ve seen Neil Gaiman say, and I’m gonna totally butcher it if I try to even even try to get it exact. But It’s basically when a reader tells you that something doesn’t make sense, you should always listen to them. When a reader tells you how to fix it, you should never listen to them.
Jesse Jackson [01:03:02]:
Yes. I yeah. I I think that is perfect. Right? Yeah. Because if The the idea, right, of going, oh, wait a minute. I don’t understand that. Okay. And I need to do it better, but no.
Jesse Jackson [01:03:18]:
No. No. This is where they yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I yeah. But, Chris, we could say that about Neil, whatever he does.
Nancy Norbeck [01:03:25]:
Yeah. Right? But but you’re also absolutely right. I mean, you will never get 2 fans of anything to agree on everything. No. You know, I I saw a post on on the site formerly known as Twitter, like, this past weekend, I think, looking for, you know, the the Doctor Who episodes that basically are universally loved, and I’m like, yeah. Good luck. Good luck. You know? The episode that I absolutely love, somebody else is gonna hate and vice versa.
Nancy Norbeck [01:03:57]:
There’s There’s the fandom is too big and there are too many episodes, and that’s just how it’s gonna be, and that’s probably how it should be. You know? It’s just There there’s no such thing as the perfect anything. Somebody’s gonna have an opinion that differs from somebody else about all of it.
Jesse Jackson [01:04:14]:
Yeah. The example I give is many people will tell you the song jungle land from Bruce Springsteen’s Born to Run album is one of his greatest epic songs. And I do think that, Listeners, if you wanna go listen to it, it has a brilliant saxophone solo, that is wonderful, But I just don’t care for the song that much, and it is universally loved. I mean, people lost their blank when he played it at the last show. Oh, we play jungle land. It’s been so long. I’m like, and I know I’m wrong. Nancy, I know I am wrong.
Jesse Jackson [01:04:58]:
I know it’s like saying, I don’t care for Blake. What? What What do you mean you don’t care for Blake? Well, just don’t. You know? And, but It just it didn’t speak to me. The song did not speak to me, so I always give that as my example of I don’t wanna give you any I don’t wanna give you an opinion, Jesse, because it’ll become a contrary and say, look. I don’t like jungle land. So I’ve given you safe Boundary. Right? Nothing is more shocking than that. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [01:05:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I am a little worried because I think Blink is one of the best episodes of any show ever. So
Jesse Jackson [01:05:37]:
Oh, that’s I absolutely adore Blink. Okay. In fact, that’s my favorite Neil Gaiman comment. Right? He said right. He and I’m gonna get it wrong. He said, He’s a time lord. They he can regenerate to different pieces. You know, he has he travels in a police box with a Tardis That’s bigger on the inside.
Jesse Jackson [01:05:57]:
Now go watch blink. There you go. That’s all you need to know. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [01:06:00]:
Yeah.
Jesse Jackson [01:06:01]:
So That’s
Nancy Norbeck [01:06:01]:
about it. It’s a great episode. If you’ve never seen doctor who before And you wanna get an idea of what the show is, there’s an episode called called Blink. It’s from the 3rd season of the new series, and it’s fantastic. And I highly recommend you watch it at midnight in the dark.
Jesse Jackson [01:06:15]:
Yeah. In fact, Blink is one of the episode my wife is not a Doctor. Goof fan. And every once in a while, we do we do swaps. Right? Like, We don’t swap partners. We’ve been we’re old, and we’ve been married too long that we never would have been comfortable with that. But what we say is I want you to watch Rachel Maddow for an hour, Jesse. And what do I owe you? Well, I want you to watch an hour of Doctor Who.
Jesse Jackson [01:06:44]:
So, and we watch blank, and Linda’s like, that was really good. Yeah. And and, also, you you didn’t need to know really A lot about doctor Fu. Just it’s just a really, really lovely little 45 minute story.
Nancy Norbeck [01:06:59]:
Yep. Stands really, really well on its own.
Jesse Jackson [01:07:01]:
Yeah. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [01:07:03]:
Kind of a little mini masterpiece.
Jesse Jackson [01:07:05]:
Yeah. It really is.
Nancy Norbeck [01:07:08]:
Yes. There are people out there apparently who hate it. So you know? And Yep. I apparently disappointed somebody by confirming that, yes, there are people out there who do not like the end of time like me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jesse Jackson [01:07:25]:
I mean, there are one of the things I found interesting is, When I started watching Who, it was during tenants. Matt Smith was the 1st doctor I watched Fresh. And so I’d gone through the previous on DVD, and, I didn’t understand anyone having Eccleston as their doctor. I didn’t get it. I just like, I don’t get it. Like, he was firmly fine. And then as we’re doing the podcast, we’ve gone back and watched. I went, oh my goodness.
Jesse Jackson [01:08:00]:
He’s brilliant. It this is a shame we only got 1 season with Christopher Eccleston. I mean, this is yeah. I mean, absolutely. Now, you know, Tennant’s my doctor, and Martha’s my favorite companion, but I do see. I’m like, it just we should’ve gotten another season of Chris Schreckleson. He just yeah. He was just so good.
Nancy Norbeck [01:08:20]:
But but Yeah. Through the magic of Big Finish.
Jesse Jackson [01:08:24]:
Yes. Indeed.
Nancy Norbeck [01:08:25]:
We now have so much more, Christopher Eccleston. And I will tell you when that first set came out, When we were all still working from home, I would go for a walk every day at lunch because there’s a lovely park near my house. And I put that thing on my phone, and I went out for a walk, and I don’t think I stopped smiling the entire time I was out walking, and people probably wondered what was wrong with me, but I just could not stop grinning while I was listening to it because it was just like magic to have him back in any format.
Jesse Jackson [01:08:57]:
We did, an episode covering Metropolis. Mhmm. The one with, you know, Eccleston doing and, god, that was such a good story.
Nancy Norbeck [01:09:06]:
So good.
Jesse Jackson [01:09:07]:
So good. Yes. Now the podcast is just gonna be naming episodes of daily know. Go see this. Go see this.
Nancy Norbeck [01:09:15]:
I know. But if you were a Chris Eccleston, doctor Who fan, and you haven’t listened to the big finish episodes, you owe extro yourself.
Jesse Jackson [01:09:21]:
Yeah. They really are.
Nancy Norbeck [01:09:23]:
So, so, so good. Yeah. He was he was magic. Just having that back. I didn’t realize you weren’t a classic Who fan. So
Jesse Jackson [01:09:30]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [01:09:30]:
So When when that show when it came back, it was just it was for me, it was equal parts excitement and trepidation. Like, oh god. What are they gonna do best back? But what are they gonna do best back?
Jesse Jackson [01:09:41]:
That’s exactly what my buddy Charles, who’s my cohost. And so, I’ve really have learned to adore, Patrick Trotten, Jamie, and Zoe. As the that chart is set. I just really, really love those. If For you don’t know, that’s the 2nd doctor. And Jamie is the reason why we have Outlander.
Nancy Norbeck [01:10:06]:
Mhmm.
Jesse Jackson [01:10:07]:
For those of you who may not be aware, the TV show and the book series.
Nancy Norbeck [01:10:10]:
He was the inspiration for that, Jamie.
Jesse Jackson [01:10:13]:
Yeah. And I absolutely understand why, Sarah Jane Smith is just adored the more I watch classic, and and I really do I you know, I’ve enjoyed all of them And and, each of them in their own way, and you really can see how why classic who was just beloved. You know? And and even as they kept cutting budgets and cutting budgets, you know, there still was just some magic in that.
Nancy Norbeck [01:10:42]:
Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. To to make something that lasted that long with no money at all, it’s kind of amazing.
Jesse Jackson [01:10:52]:
It absolutely is.
Nancy Norbeck [01:10:53]:
Yeah. You had to have some good stories in order to to pull that off.
Jesse Jackson [01:10:57]:
Absolutely. Good.
Nancy Norbeck [01:10:59]:
Extro So well, I have loved this conversation, unsurprisingly, and I know that we could sit here and keep going for another hour or 2 if we aren’t careful.
Jesse Jackson [01:11:09]:
Yes. So
Nancy Norbeck [01:11:11]:
but thank you so much. This has been a great time, and I look forward to the next time too.
Jesse Jackson [01:11:17]:
Well, Nancy, I’m you’re welcome to join me anytime. So to give a little bit, You know, she gave me a list of songs that I’m listening to, and she’s gonna come back on set, Leslie Bruce, and we’re gonna talk about, how I thought about those songs. I’m excited about that. And, you know, we always can have you on Next Stop everywhere To be a guest companion, we do that. I will send you information about that. That’s that’s a lot of fun. We we’ll go we pick a classic episode, And then Charles and I, and we we do often, it’s just Charles and I talking about what we do, what we call the aggressive companion. So, like, if If you have a classic episode that I can send you a list of what we haven’t talked about, you go, oh, I love this one.
Jesse Jackson [01:12:04]:
We’ll schedule it, and we’ll have you in Cool. See that. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [01:12:07]:
Very cool. And and I will include the link to my previous set lusting Bruce episode. And if you wanna send me the 1 the the link to the one you were telling us about, I’ll I’ll put that 1 in the show notes too.
Jesse Jackson [01:12:20]:
I will.
Nancy Norbeck [01:12:20]:
So so yeah. So we will we will meet again.
Jesse Jackson [01:12:24]:
Absolutely. We will.
Nancy Norbeck [01:12:26]:
And yeah. So thanks much.
Jesse Jackson [01:12:28]:
Thanks. Bye, everyone.
Nancy Norbeck [01:12:30]:
Bye, everybody. That’s our show for this week. Thanks so much to Jesse Jackson and to you for listening. Please leave a review for this episode. There is a link right in your podcast app. And in it, tell us about a time when starting a new creative endeavor made a difference in your life. If you enjoyed our conversation, I hope you’ll share it with a friend. Thanks so much.
Nancy Norbeck [01:12:54]:
If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now, Join me at The Spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage. It’s free, and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners. The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, Please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.