Marc Kaye calls himself a “restless creative”—a musician, writer, and comedian who loves to tell stories and make people laugh. He also, through his company, VitalConex, uses those skills to help develop the vital connections needed for focused, united teams and creative problem solving. Marc tells me how—and why—he took the leap into stand-up, how his comedy and his writing skills have influenced each other, and how he takes both of those, and his business partner’s therapy background, and creates programs to help teams create a sense of psychological safety that lets them do difficult work from a place of greater unity.
Episode breakdown:
00:00 Childhood creativity shapes lifelong passion for creation.
05:37 Piano, writing, science, marketing, stand-up comedy.
07:49 Email to Gary Goldman about Last Comic Standing.
11:48 Got hooked on comedy, performed sporadically. Kids grew.
15:32 Song critique circle provides valuable but diverse feedback.
18:26 Improving character portrayal in writing and comedy.
21:41 An exercise in making unexpected connections.
23:45 Comedy, improv, and creativity in storytelling.
27:23 Adults miss suspending belief in harmless ways.
31:03 Comedy clubs are a past entertainment trend.
34:24 Challenges with DEI initiatives and team building.
36:42 Avoiding the “consultant” label
40:33 Using humor to build real interpersonal connections.
43:12 Identifying strengths and weaknesses through team activity.
46:24 Human experience involves shared emotions and perspectives.
52:26 Humor is crucial in navigating change.
54:38 Finding humor in life is a superpower.
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Transcript: Marc Kaye
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Marc Kaye calls himself a restless creative, a musician, writer, and comedian who loves to tell stories and make people laugh. He also, through his company, VitalConex, uses those skills to help develop the vital connections needed for focused united teams and creative problem solving. Marc tells me how and why he took the leap into stand up, how his comedy and his writing skills have influenced each other, and how he takes both of those and his business partner’s therapy background and creates programs to help teams create a sense of psychological safety that lets them do difficult work from a place of greater unity.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:57]:
Here’s my conversation with Marc Kaye. Marc, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Marc Kaye [00:01:04]:
Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:05]:
So I start everybody off with the same question, which is, were you a creative kid, or did you discover your creative side later on?
Marc Kaye [00:01:14]:
I actually prepared for this because I do listen to your podcast. And, I would say I I would say in looking back, I definitely was a creative Creative kid, for sure.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:25]:
How did that manifest itself?
Marc Kaye [00:01:28]:
Well, I mean, I I think So, I mean, it seems to me, you know, having had kids of my own and being around other kids, kids are very creative generally. But I think that I just I always felt like I took it to a different level. You know, I was kinda the weirdo or, some might say, you know, I had a good Active imagination. But even when I think back to a lot of the games or things that I did with my sister and my neighbor, They were all created. We used to play in the sandbox, and we we had this whole story about a farmer makes us do everything. We were, like, being held captive, or we had to played around the tree playing witches brew, or we’d have talent shows, and I was always into writing and music. And I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I, I do think that there’s parts of you that are the same now as they were the day you were born probably, And there’s just always that kinda common thread to wanna create something. And, you know, I I never was interested in in, watching concerts games on television.
Marc Kaye [00:02:30]:
I always wanted to, like, be part of it, and I think there’s something creative in in that as well.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:35]:
That’s so interesting because I think that’s true for a lot of us, and we don’t think of that is a creative thing.
Marc Kaye [00:02:41]:
Yeah. But it is. Right? It really it really is. I I think I I think of creativity as as as, Activity. It’s very active, like the verb of it, to to create. And I just I think that’s why a lot of times people who aren’t Creating art. You know, sometimes they’re thought of as not being creative, but actually are incredibly creative in the way in which they’re thinking about problem solving because it’s an active, thing, but it’s just, you know, we’ve kind of scoped it in our society to fall into 3 or 4 things and that and that’s it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:17]:
Yeah. Absolutely. It’s like, if you’re solving a problem, you are creating a new solution to a thing. Yes. But we don’t think about it that way, which is crazy. No.
Marc Kaye [00:03:28]:
It is crazy. And and I think kids naturally do think about things that way. I mean, that’s why kids ask so many questions As they are using creativity to ask, well, why is that the situation, or why why is that? It’s very, very active. But, You know, for a whole bunch of reasons, I think it’s it’s kind of you know, it’s extracted out of us as we get older and and Learn, a reward system that might not always reward that type of, you know, approach.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:58]:
Yeah. I I’ve just started reading a book called The Extended Mind by Annie Murphy Paul. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but she she talks a lot at the beginning about how we’re taught that our brain and our whole thinking system is only between our ears, and it’s not true. You know? There’s all of these other ways that we think and and experience the world and interpret information, and I’m literally, like, I’m in chapter I might be at the beginning of chapter 2. I’m not deep into this book yet, but it’s still, like, just that makes you really think about how how we are taught to function in the world is so limited. You know? Because it’s like, just think really hard and that will solve the problem, when a lot of the time, That is not what will solve the problem.
Marc Kaye [00:04:47]:
No. No. Not not at all. And I I see that you know, I don’t I don’t wanna get into a whole generational thing here, but it it does seem to me that there there is something about creativity and resourcefulness, And I find that that people who can’t necessarily, you know, follow a recipe or find it in a book, Don’t understand how to be resourceful, and creativity to me isn’t, you know, an immediate channel to being resourceful. And I just think it’s so critically important in everything, but I’m I’m also incredibly biased. You know? So I I don’t know.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:24]:
Yeah. We’re we’re not gonna have an biased conversation about that.
Marc Kaye [00:05:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:29]:
There’s no chance. There’s no chance. So where did your creative side take you as you started getting older?
Marc Kaye [00:05:37]:
Well, I I took a huge hiatus, I would say. I mean, I think I was, I I’ve I’ve been playing piano since I was 7, And then I was always kinda writing. You know, I was writing since I was a kid and in high school, and I wanted to go into journalism. And then For a lot of the reasons we kinda just, I think, touched on, you know, ended up studying, science, biology, and psychology because, you know, just Every message I was getting, quite frankly, was, you know, that was how you were gonna get a job, even though I really wanted to go into journalism and writing. Where it ultimately took me was, to to nowhere land because, you know, I graduated college, and then I ended up just, you know, working for the state and then, and going into marketing and, you know, having kids and kind of those things fall by the wayside, unfortunately, If you don’t keep up with them. And then, when my kids got older, I decided to try stand up comedy, and I was always writing throughout the whole time. And the reason I tried to do stand up comedy was because I wanted to meet other writers. It wasn’t to do stand up comedy, but I was not anywhere in that circle stro as you can imagine.
Marc Kaye [00:06:48]:
And that’s taken me in quite a quite a, a lot of places in the past 10 or 12 years, Including, kind of re you know, reengaging my musical side as well and recording music.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:00]:
That’s so interesting that that you got to comedy through wanting to meet other writers. That’s not where most people would go. How is it that that’s the venue that presented itself
Marc Kaye [00:07:12]:
to you. It’s it’s very simple. I was researching on how do you write for The Daily Show. Oh. And and I was like, where do these people, you know, meet? And the reality was, at that time, I was well aged out of, the typical intern or people that would start there. And he was saying that a lot of people meet each other doing stand up comedy, albeit in New York City. But, you know, I thought, okay. At least that’ll get me closer to people like minded people who might be writing comedy, which it did in some capacity, And that was it.
Marc Kaye [00:07:49]:
And, and that and also Last Comic Standing, I I wrote to Gary Goldman. I don’t know if you or the listeners remember, but he was one of the initial Contestants on Last Comic Standing, and he literally looks like makes up. He’s, like, 66. And he was doing these jokes, and I and I just thought he was amazing, and I wrote an email to him and he answered me. And he just said, just do it. Just get up there and try it. And I had made a, Like a pact with myself that I would try by the time I turned 40. And I was about to turn 41, and there was this I was taking my kids roller skating.
Marc Kaye [00:08:23]:
There was a sign outside Sing open mic night at the at the motel, and, I did it. And I’ve been regretting it ever since. No. But, but that’s kinda how it happened. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:34]:
Wow. That that takes some serious courage to just walk into a a comedy open night and just do it.
Marc Kaye [00:08:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. It did. I mean, I was I was definitely afraid. You know, it it’s it’s funny. I don’t know if you have this ex like, when you’ve decided to do something, you know, creative or not. But, you know, I got to the point where I had been thinking, thinking, thinking about it, and I it was almost like I had to choose Between the depression of never doing something or the anxiety of actually trying it, but, like, it was gonna be 1 or the other. And so when I realized I was either picking depression or anxiety.
Marc Kaye [00:09:10]:
I was like, well, I might as well try anxiety because, like, I I think I would try it. And so that’s been a little bit Kind of my approach for the past decade or so, you know, not to be afraid of things that really truly aren’t gonna kill you. You know? Heights, yes. Snakes, yes. Doing an open mic, you’ll you’ll survive kind of thing.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:32]:
Yeah. Wow. So how did it go?
Marc Kaye [00:09:36]:
I remember it went I it went well. I was actually shocked because, believe, I was number 16, I was only in the middle of the open mic. It was on a Wednesday before Thanksgiving. This is and and I remember there was a guy Sitting in the front, and I don’t know if you ever saw Despicable Me, the the movie. But, what what’s the guy’s name that, you know, with the the The back, the big black V neck back. He’s just the the villain, but remember. I I I wanna say, like, Vilnius or something where that’s probably where he’s from. But there was a guy that looked like him.
Marc Kaye [00:10:10]:
I mean, his back was, like, 7 miles wide, and I and he was happy with people. And I thought, Oh my god. Like, I am totally like, what am I doing? And I I don’t know why to this day, but he did not heckle me. And I just thought, okay. I got through it, and I was kinda hooked, you know, after that. So I went through well. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:30]:
And then did you find the community you were looking for?
Marc Kaye [00:10:36]:
Yes and no. I mean, I, you know, I think it’s difficult, like anything, I mean, there’s to me, at least, you know, they say it’s more difficult to make friends as you get older. It’s more difficult To you know? And I think that there’s something to that just because you have a lot of conflicting things going on in your life. You know? You’re just you just have a a much more nuanced life. And I I found community. I found some very good friends, there, But I don’t think I would say I found community, at least in this area, at least the way I I wish I would have. Yeah. Wow.
Marc Kaye [00:11:13]:
It could be because of me as well. I’m not trying to say it’s, like, because of the people, but it just did it didn’t, You know, I I listen to Sarah Silverman, and they all hang out. And, you know, and I I I would love to have that that type of tight knit Community, where it’s not about the comedy, but it’s about kind of connecting. And I have that with a few people, but, but not on a grand scale. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:37]:
So you go to an open mic. You get hooked.
Marc Kaye [00:11:40]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:41]:
What do you do from there? Do you just keep open micing? Do you take courses? Because I know that there are comedy workshops and things like that.
Marc Kaye [00:11:48]:
Yeah. What what happens? Well, I I, yeah, I got hooked, and then, you know, I did it for a few months. And then I remember, I didn’t do it for, you know, 5 or 6 or 7 months. My kids were probably, like, 10 and 12 or something. So they were older, but they, you know, they they were busy. And I would only do it, Sort of when I didn’t have any other any other duties at the time. But I would do open mics, and then I became friends with a couple people who would invite me to their rooms, and I would start hosting and and getting hired to do things like that, and I would do it when I could. And, I did take a I did take a class at the stress factory, in new in New Brunswick, New Jersey, You know, maybe a couple years in, but mostly what I was doing was was writing, and it really wasn’t until, like, my kids were in high school, that I started, you know, performing more more often.
Marc Kaye [00:12:45]:
That was also the time that I was going through a divorce. So there was a a big a big hiatus during that, because it was hard to find the funny in anything. Yeah. Although there’s lots of funny there now, but at the time and then, you know, I that obviously, when I started up again again, it revolves around, you know, the kids and Things like that. But but it was actually kind of a God’s scent at the at the time, which was great.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:10]:
That makes sense. Yeah. So what’s it like to take a class on comedy? Because I know a lot of us would think that that would take all of the funny right out of it.
Marc Kaye [00:13:21]:
Well, I think you would think I think you’re right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:23]:
I think you would be I think
Marc Kaye [00:13:25]:
you would be right. You know, it’s a really good question because it’s a class. Right? And I think It really depends on the instructor. Right? So if you if you have somebody who is able to hone in and say, oh, this Person. I always think of it as like a diagnosis. Right? The what this person needs is technique, or this person needs writing skills, or this person needs presence. The problem is, to to be honest, anybody can say they’re an instructor and a teacher. Right? And so what I would say is take a class, But watch the person and call the person, talk to them, and make sure that this person is going to provide you, you know, what you need.
Marc Kaye [00:14:09]:
I’ve taught I’ve Taught comedy classes now, and I’m always very super sensitive to make sure that I am providing some sort of value Because you can easily go down the rabbit hole of your your you suck, and you’re there you shouldn’t be doing this at all. And, actually, when I took a class, It set me a little bit backwards because it it really made me rethink a lot of what I was doing and how I was doing it. And the thing about any art form is It’s very, very subjective. Right? And so I I think there’s something to be said about what it takes to be a good writer extro have good presence or right. There are obviously things that are like that, but there’s a lot of art to it as well, not science. And so I think it’s hard to take a class If you don’t know a 100% what it is you’re trying to get out of it, and I didn’t I didn’t do that, unfortunately, but it was still a good learning experience.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:04]:
That seems like such good advice for so many different things. Like, to know what it is you need to get out of for anything in in any art.
Marc Kaye [00:15:14]:
Yeah. Or anything like you said in life, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:19]:
Yeah. Because comedy seems to me like it would be even more subjective than than a lot of other things. Maybe maybe that’s just my impression because as I’m saying that, I’m wondering if that’s really true.
Marc Kaye [00:15:32]:
I don’t know. You know, I do I I also belong to a singer songwriter circle, and, it’s like a critique, a song critique. And, You know, it’s a little bit similar, which is I get a lot out of it, but sometimes I see people take, You know, you someone could play a song, and there’s 10 people kinda providing their input on the song. And someone could love it and, You know, the fact that this thing is repetitious and another person can say, well, actually, I think you need to modulate. That’s too boring. And And at some point, I think you have to just take it in, you know, sit with it for a while, and say, what what really serves you in the song? What is authentic to you? Because, again, it it at least the way I think of creativity, it’s in its purest form, it’s an expression of who you are. Right? So I I would never wanna Squeeze out who somebody really is. Just give them some things to think about and how to make things better.
Marc Kaye [00:16:28]:
So I do think, to your point, it applies to lots of Lots of art forms. Comedy, I think, could be, like you said, a little more intense, but not because of comedy, but because of the comedian. We’re just very, very sensitive.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:41]:
That’s true. Yeah. Yeah. I can I can just imagining people saying, but what if I haven’t figured out who I am yet? You know? It can be really hard to figure out what what’s authentic to you.
Marc Kaye [00:16:55]:
Yeah. I think I think that’s I think that’s true, but that’s one of that’s a great thing about writing, though. I mean, you know, or any type of writing, songwriting, creative writing, poetry. I mean, I think, you know, just don’t overthink it. See what comes out. And in time, it’ll it’ll, you know, uncover itself. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:15]:
Yeah. I think that’s true. I think the more you do of it, the more you have a sense of what what feels right and what doesn’t feel right.
Marc Kaye [00:17:23]:
Yeah. I think that’s true. Yeah. Especially if you listen to your listen to your gut.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:30]:
Yeah. Well, that’s that’s the key thing. Right?
Marc Kaye [00:17:33]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:34]:
That’s the thing that we’re not taught to do in school because our thinking all exists between our ears. Right?
Marc Kaye [00:17:39]:
Yeah. So they say. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:41]:
So they say. So I’m really curious to know how you’ve found that doing comedy has influenced your writing and maybe vice versa.
Marc Kaye [00:17:52]:
Yeah. Well, that’s a great that’s a great question. So I, it’s influenced my writing. So I have this book of essays that, you know, I’m gonna, get published hopefully soon. A is for awkward. And You can’t you cannot write an essay the way that you would, you know, tell a story in a in a in a book like that the way you would on stage. But but where it has actually Influence me is that when you’re when you’re doing, stand up, it’s not just about the words you say. It’s, you know, the Expressions you use, the way you act out, the way you use voices.
Marc Kaye [00:18:26]:
And so it’s really helped me try to think about, How do I bring some of the characters in my stories to life beyond just their words? You know, describing them better, you know, setting the scene better, getting to the point better. And in and in comedy, because people make such snap decisions, you don’t I’m not, a kind of comic where I feel like I can take 10 minutes to do a setup without getting a laugh yet. I mean, I would love it if I was, but I don’t think that’s where I am yet. And the same kind of applies to writing. I think you need to understand what, you know, What is it that you need the reader to understand and when? And so it’s made me think a little bit more methodically, believe it or not. And then on the reverse, I think writing has informed my comedy in in that I have to learn how to Not, I need to economize better. I mean, one of the things I do is is I can get pretty Academic and descriptive, and then I can lose somebody when I’m on stage, right, who’s it there’s so many distractions. So it’s informed my comedy By thinking in terms of, okay, what is the main point of view? What’s the main thing I need to get across here? So I think it’s been a little bit of a a back and forth.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:48]:
That makes sense.
Marc Kaye [00:19:49]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:50]:
Yeah. It’s because I had never really thought of of the the 2 as and so related before, and yet, you know, the stories that you tell your friends are not the kind of stories that you’re necessarily gonna get up and tell even at an open mic when you have no idea what you’re do well, maybe if you have no idea what you’re doing. Right? But Mhmm. But other than that, it’s not like it’s not like George Carlin just woke up one day and said, oh, you know, I’m gonna go on stage tonight, and I’m just gonna tell story pops into my head. That’s not how it works.
Marc Kaye [00:20:23]:
Right. That that’s right. And in fact, you know, I started this company called Vital Connects, with a friend who she’s a therapist, and I’m the humorist. But one of the things we do is we actually use, joke mapping and humor writing techniques To problem solve because the technique itself, which is a writing technique, helps you actually kinda get to what the problem is and and think of connections that you would not think of otherwise. So it really it’s just you know, it sounds like, you know, oh, he gets up and he does open mic night. But, like, if you Kinda take it seriously. Like, there is kind of a process to it, and it really allows you to go in different directions and see what you, you know, see what you have. So it’s been a, I think that’s skill that I probably didn’t have before I tried it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:08]:
Can you give us an example of what that looks like?
Marc Kaye [00:21:11]:
A joke map? Yeah. Extro Or or actually, we do it we do it with businesses too. But so, you know, I might have my I might have a premise and it involves a Kitchen sink. And so I’ll just write the word kitchen sink in the middle of a piece of paper or a whiteboard or whatever, and then We’ll go around the room where I’ll do it by myself, and just write everything that comes to mind with a kitchen sink. So it could be A faucet. It could be water. It could be a leak. It could be dirty dishes.
Marc Kaye [00:21:41]:
It could be a dump. It could be the saying everything but the kitchen sink, and then you do the same thing for each of those words. And you do that about 4 or 5 layers out. And then you might end up the 5th or 6th layer with something that seems completely unrelated to a kitchen sink, like, cottage cheese or France, And you start to make these connections between the kitchen sink and France. And in the in those levels, you’re actually creating a story. And so it it can become a very funny story because you’re now connecting 2 things, which is kind of the art of good comedy, right, is the misdirect the redirect rather. And so that joke mapping exercise, we do the same thing for problem solving. So we did one with, an organization that was looking to move more into Coaching, which I think is in your in your, domain actually also.
Marc Kaye [00:22:33]:
And and that’s not what they were consultants, but not coaches. And so we started talking about what they did and put it sort of in the middle of this mapping exercise and did the same thing to try to understand What is the connection between where they are and this this area, this adjacent area that they wanna get into and come up with some premises and potential business models? So It’s just a it’s a way of thinking that I think is not at least something I wasn’t exposed to, you know, in any any my my schooling.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:03]:
It sounds like a like a brain map, like, that I used to do with writing students, but in a you know, Only to a certain extent because then you’re going off on this wild, you know, take it somewhere totally different piece that that We certainly never did to write a 5 paragraph essay for Right. English 101.
Marc Kaye [00:23:22]:
Yeah. I’m sure you had, you had enough creativity in in those essays as it was.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:27]:
Intentional and unintentional. Yeah.
Marc Kaye [00:23:29]:
Yeah. Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:31]:
Yeah. That’s really cool, though. I I like that. I like the way that That you take it in an unexpected direction and then see what you come up with because that’s where all the wild stuff happens. Yeah.
Marc Kaye [00:23:45]:
And then and the other thing that I love about and this is, it is comedy, but it’s it’s, you know, it’s own separate category is the use of improv and improvise or improvisation. Because what what you can then do is you can you can do it with or without the the mapping exercise, but take those elements And assign them to different characters and use different there’s a whole bunch of different improv exercises with which you may be familiar with that start to create a story. And it’s fun. At the same time, you also get, like, ideas that you just would not otherwise generate. I mean, you know, think about how many times the majority of my comedy that actually works because most of it doesn’t, but the majority of it Comes out of, unexpected places from conversations that I have or that I hear or things that happen. It’s not me sitting down at a desk and trying to make a connection. And it’s and that it’s really that whole process again of just kind of putting everything aside and just It’s it’s connecting with other people and ideas and just being okay with being a little weird. You know? And that’s that’s the stuff that I really like to do.
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:56]:
Yeah. It was for some reason, the overheard in New York website has just popped into my head. I haven’t thought about that for years. Are you familiar
Marc Kaye [00:25:04]:
with Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:07]:
And there are more than just New York or at least there were. I don’t know if it still exists. But, you know, the random things that you hear that undoubtedly to the people in the conversation made perfect sense, but to someone who’s who’s standing there are hilarious or or just
Marc Kaye [00:25:21]:
are
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:21]:
completely bizarre.
Marc Kaye [00:25:23]:
Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:23]:
Yeah. Yep.
Marc Kaye [00:25:25]:
Yeah. Can’t make it up.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:26]:
You can’t make it up. You really can’t. And and lord knows I love I love me some improv. So
Marc Kaye [00:25:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s fun. It’s it’s just And that’s what kids that’s what I mean when I say I think kids are everyone is creative. I mean, you know, I I don’t think I’ve ever Seeing kids that aren’t improvising, you know, when they’re on the playground, making you know, it’s like those are the the best stories as even when they have Toys and stuff, and that’s sort of, I think, the, you know, the real shame of having so many devices around Is it takes away from you know, improvisation is just another way of saying play in a way.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:04]:
Right.
Marc Kaye [00:26:05]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:05]:
Right. I I think we would be deeply disturbed if we ever saw kids who weren’t essentially doing improv and making stuff up all the time.
Marc Kaye [00:26:14]:
Yeah. It’s it’s true. We we have enough accountants. I don’t wanna see some 5 year old in a with a briefcase and a 3 piece suit.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:20]:
It would be weirdly unnatural, though. You know? I mean, just be like, what is what is wrong with this kid? Even if we couldn’t put our finger on what it was, would know something was really wrong with that kid.
Marc Kaye [00:26:32]:
Yeah. We would it’s yes. I’m sure that, you know, Maybe Zuckerberg was that kid when he was 5, but thank god that we have less than more. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:45]:
Right. Right. And and I’m thinking of, you know, when My older nephew was 5, and he appeared with a thing he had made out of LEGO. And it was really just, you know, a giant block made Allego, and he said, this is a cake. And I you know, no question in his mind. And and I said, well, of course, it is. But, of course, because I’m not 5, there’s that little voice in my head going, uh-huh. And it’s that little voice that goes, uh-huh, that’s getting us all in trouble because we’re looking at it going, that ain’t a cake, kiddo, but okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:20]:
And and they just are all in.
Marc Kaye [00:27:23]:
Yes. Yeah. And that’s why, that’s why, and that’s That’s a piece that we really, really miss, as adults, you know, is is almost the suspension of belief a little bit, not not you know, we’re not it’s so funny because we suspend belief in very, very dangerous ways as adults. Right? Very, very dangerous ways because it’s okay. It just has it’s normalized. But in ways that really are not that Dangerous, but people might think we’re weird. We tend not to. And it’s really so backwards because, actually, it would be a much A much, you know, more fun, I think, environment to be in where we can suspend belief in ways that It’s not gonna hurt anybody, but we could just have a little laugh.
Marc Kaye [00:28:13]:
You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:14]:
Yeah. There’s a difference between suspending disbelief and being in denial.
Marc Kaye [00:28:19]:
Yes. That’s a good way of putting it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:20]:
Yeah. I think a lot of us are in denial a lot of the time, whereas this is a cake.
Marc Kaye [00:28:26]:
Yeah. Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:28]:
Is a whole lot healthier.
Marc Kaye [00:28:30]:
Why not? And who’s to say it’s not a cake? And it could be a cake.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:34]:
Yeah.
Marc Kaye [00:28:35]:
If it’s a cake for him, it’s a cake. You know? He’s not gonna eat it. Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:38]:
As I say, I’m not gonna try to eat it, but otherwise,
Marc Kaye [00:28:40]:
it’s a cake. What if we eat? Exactly. Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:44]:
Yeah. Why why not?
Marc Kaye [00:28:47]:
I know. Kids and dogs, they’ve they’ve got it figured out, I think.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:50]:
And they’re having more fun. They’re definitely the most Clearly, they’re onto something.
Marc Kaye [00:28:55]:
Kids are creative. Dogs are in the moment. I mean, they they got it figured out. I don’t know how, but they definitely do.
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:00]:
They do. The rest of us, though. I don’t know. There’s there’s something in that growing up thing that just wrecks it.
Marc Kaye [00:29:09]:
Yeah. I think it’s a common you know, I’m I’m all for being an adult and responsible, and I think that’s important. But The idea that that’s at the, you know, that and this was me. I’m not I don’t wanna talk for everybody else, but I definitely had in my head that there were these milestone gates. And, you know, once you pass that gate, you know, your identity changes. You have to you know, that part’s gotta go. Like, that Creative part, playing piano, trying to get in a band. Like, now you’ve gotta be responsible.
Marc Kaye [00:29:38]:
And there’s plenty of people who balance everything. I so I’m not saying that other people Haven’t figured it out, but I was not sewn from that cloth, you know, and I I I’m there now, but we’re getting there. But it it’s actually makes me a a better human being to not have to shed, you know, shed that stuff On the way.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:02]:
Yeah. Like, the whole, you’re too old for that now.
Marc Kaye [00:30:05]:
Yeah. It’s yeah. It’s what does that even mean? Right. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:10]:
Right. I’m too old to have fun. Everything has to be serious and boring because what’s the point of living if that’s the case?
Marc Kaye [00:30:17]:
Yeah. Exact exactly. Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:20]:
And I think that gets wrapped up into that word responsible. Because, obviously, you know, like you, I’m I’m not advocating that we all, you know, run off and just never go to work again. And though I I don’t know. Maybe there’s a way to make that work. But absolutely. That. Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:36]:
Some people have certainly managed it. But but, you know, I mean, there are things that definitely need to be taken care of in the world, and and we should do those things. But I don’t think that that necessarily means that you can’t go and do The other things too that you can’t have fun, that you can’t create, that, you you know, that everything has to be serious and boring and just drudgery for the rest of your life because that’s not being alive.
Marc Kaye [00:31:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. I I agree. And that’s why I’d love to I really would love to see more and more people go to comedy are. I think it’s a thing in the that’s a little bit of thing in the past. I mean, there there’s still people that go, but it’s not a I mean, I remember when it was, you know, Big thing. You would go to a comedy club the way you’d go to a movie or and, it it’s one thing that’s you can sit at home and watch funny you know, you can watch a funny Comedy Netflix special, and and that’s great. But there is something to be said you being in a room with other people laughing.
Marc Kaye [00:31:34]:
It’s just it’s It’s just there’s nothing like it. And, I think that goes for all kinds of activities, actually. So
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:42]:
Yeah.
Marc Kaye [00:31:43]:
Gotta get have fun.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:45]:
Absolutely. I just went to see Eddie as art a couple weeks ago
Marc Kaye [00:31:48]:
Oh, yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:49]:
For the 2nd time. And, you know, I’ve seen Plenty of Eddie’s shows on video.
Marc Kaye [00:31:54]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:55]:
But there is something fabulous about being in that room. And, of course, that’s a bigger room. I haven’t been to curiosity. In in Philadelphia.
Marc Kaye [00:32:04]:
Oh, okay. Wow. I didn’t even realize that. That’s awesome.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:07]:
Yeah. It’s like the the remix tour from Philly, then then I think I think New York. Not sure where all else because those are the the 2 closest. But
Marc Kaye [00:32:17]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:18]:
But, yeah, you know, it was like a friend of mine had tickets. I was like, you wanna go? I’m like, yeah.
Marc Kaye [00:32:24]:
Talk about creativity. Yeah. For sure.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:27]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s a that’s a brain that never stops.
Marc Kaye [00:32:33]:
No.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:33]:
In multiple languages never stops, and I suspect the multiple languages is part of why it never stops.
Marc Kaye [00:32:40]:
Oh, interesting.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:41]:
In that case.
Marc Kaye [00:32:42]:
Keep thinking in all these different languages.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:45]:
Yeah. And there was actually a segment about what works and doesn’t work in different languages and and having to, like, translate bits and and change Yeah. You know, in order to make things work in different places. That was really, really interesting. But But yeah. But that’s also, you know, like I said, in in a a large theater, whereas a a comedy club is, you know, often a smaller place Yeah. Which is a different experience
Marc Kaye [00:33:15]:
too. Yeah. It is. I mean, it’s a they’re all they’re all good, They’re all good experiences. I I think, you know, like I like I say to people who are work with us at Vital Connects, You know, it’s the idea is not to turn people into stand up comics or writers. It’s to just tap into What is there in all of us, but unfortunately, just sometimes gets suppressed for all this the reasons that we, you know, just spoke about.
Nancy Norbeck [00:33:48]:
Yeah. So I would love to hear more about what you do with Vital Connects.
Marc Kaye [00:33:54]:
Okay. Yeah. Sure. So we’re we’re we say we’re a leadership consultancy, and we focus on teams. So What what we’ve done is so just a little bit of background. My my, the cofounder is Leslie Morgan. So she and I both, Have worked in corporate environments for many, many, many, many years, over 2 decades. And I was I’ve always worked in marketing, still do, And she worked in more operations, but in, right it was it was during the pandemic.
Marc Kaye [00:34:24]:
We were working together and, at the same company, and it was one of these things with, you probably heard a lot around DEI, diversity And and we we had a lot of and these are very important initiatives for sure, but we’d always have these sort of DEI or team building or these type of initiatives, And then everything would kinda stay the same. Right? It was fun, but then everything would go like, nothing changed. And then we have Significant, like, challenges that the team would have to come together and try to solve these challenges, but it was the same challenge that we were trying to solve last Right? And it’s and and we started asking ourselves, these are really good people. These are smart people. Like, what is actually going on here? And we realized that those 2 things never kinda came together. So having a team that really had this this this foundation of trust or psychological safety, which which a lot of people talk about, You know, it’s so important to the creativity piece because you’re not going to do the things that you and I just talked about if you feel like you’re gonna be judged on your team. Even if you get along with people. Right? You don’t have to have the same world view, but it’s that level of respect and knowing that you’re safe.
Marc Kaye [00:35:31]:
And so we brought these 2 things together. And so we work with teams to make sure that there’s really truly a foundation of psychological safety, and then we ideate and problem solve using some of the humor workshops that I put together. And those and we conduct workshops. Sometimes we have embedded engagements for longer, you know, for longer, needs. And it’s a it’s a lot of fun, I have to say. And it’s customized each time because it’s different with each, you know, organization. But it’s to try to it’s really to try to, this is a improv so I I can’t take any credit. This is from improv.
Marc Kaye [00:36:06]:
But it’s it’s it’s saying, hey. We can We can kinda work with you as a team, but it’s best when you work as an ensemble. It’s a little bit different. Right? Because the team, you you still have your individual roles, The ensemble, you’re 1 unit, and it’s a more symbiotic relationship, and, that’s what we do. Wow. Because
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:26]:
you’re absolutely right. You can bring in every consultant in the universe, but 9 times out of 10, a year later, Everything is exactly the way it was before you brought in the consultant. Yeah. So you find that this actually makes a change?
Marc Kaye [00:36:42]:
Yeah. It’s so funny because we actually we’re so we’ve been truly struggling, to be honest, about for for while we’re struggling. How do we describe ourselves? And we were Staying away from the word consultant for all the reasons you just said. Mhmm. Because we were on the we were on the opposite side Or, you know, there’s some good consultants. It’s but it’s we had the same reaction you had, and we were like, oh, we don’t wanna come in and, oh, that was fun, and then there’s nothing lasting. So, yes, we do find you know, we we’ve had clients say, you know, we use A lot of different exercises, but we find that it does actually stick for two reasons. 1 is, You know, the psychological safety piece, what Leslie does is she talks more about neuroanatomy, not just kind of, you know, what we might be used to.
Marc Kaye [00:37:27]:
Like, are you left brainer? Are you right brainer? Are you creative? Or It’s this idea of there’s actually a thinking and a feeling brain, which is based on some neuroanatomy work. I can never say that word. That’s been done. But in doing that, she she’s really great at explaining how when we’re when we’re at a work situation or in a serious situation, right, the the Things that we get rewarded for are are from our thinking brain, almost like what you said earlier.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:55]:
Mhmm.
Marc Kaye [00:37:56]:
But the things that allow you to overcome objections, Conflict and problem solve are actually largely embedded in the feeling brain. And so we do these exercises. First of all, really kinda get to the bottom of The fact that everybody is coming into the meeting with a whole set of concerns on their shoulder that nobody else knows about to begin with. Right? And it that really seems to stick with people, and it was a real eye opener. I was personally afraid of getting too Personal, quite frankly, in that in that realm, and people kept telling us that we should be spending more time on that, which Tells me that we are much more alike than we think, but we just don’t present that way on Facebook and LinkedIn all the time. Mhmm. Surprise. So that part really sticks.
Marc Kaye [00:38:42]:
And then I use, I use The Office or some other, sometimes sitcoms and improv To actually IDA and joke map the way we did. And that’s a that’s a fun exercise. So that sticks, and we leave them with, we leave them with some approaches that they can use For their their particular team, because, you know, we always say that all all HR is local. You know, you could work for a company, but if you have a good team, That’s gonna make a difference and vice versa. You could work for a great company. But if your team is, you know, all over the place, that’s gonna really impact your, your daily experience.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:16]:
Right. So the DEI work is not typically something people associate with humor.
Marc Kaye [00:39:26]:
Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:26]:
It’s like big, serious, uncomfortable, unpleasant stuff. Yeah. So how does it go when you to somebody who wants to bring you in, and you say you’re gonna use humor because I can just imagine them being like, I’m sorry. What?
Marc Kaye [00:39:42]:
Yeah. No. It’s and and that does happen. That absolutely happens, and we, we we address that head on. So, I mean, one of the things when we’re kind of walking through what we do As you make it very clear what we do, but we make it very clear, like, what we don’t do. Right? So this isn’t therapy or confession on the psychological safety side, And this isn’t like, improv and turning you into a stand up comic, and and it has to be done with incredible respect, right, especially In today’s day and age, what what I always say to that is that if you look at some of the most there are some of the most serious things that have happened in history Where leaders have used humor sort of as as a, to disarm, right, what is a very, very difficult situation. The goal is to not make a joke out of the situation. It’s not even to find the funny in the situation.
Marc Kaye [00:40:33]:
The goal is to use humor for the interpersonal connections relationships to then allow people to be real about how to address a situation. The problem is when people feel that they can’t even just be themselves and take a breath, it typically can escalate and nothing actually gets accomplished. So it’s humor as sort of a channel to just disarm The relationship, not necessarily sorry. Not necessarily to, you know, make, idle or fun of what might be a very significant situation. That being said, in the DEI space, what what is interesting is is that there are ways to use humor To really get to the point of what equity really means or what diversity really means when there’s some people that are taking it to the extreme And and are afraid to even touch it. So there’s there’s there are ways in which that can help there there also, but it’s a very good question. It’s It it’s not just DEI. It’s actually for a lot of things, people get get a little bit cautious about.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Could you give us an example of of how you tackle some of those things?
Marc Kaye [00:41:41]:
Yeah. I mean, you know, so One of the things that that we tackled was, working with a team where they were a highly functioning team. This isn’t DEI example. This is just about team dynamics. Mhmm. But they were a highly functioning team, but there were two People on the team, very strong personalities, very bright, You know, go getters, ambitious, and, you know, a little bit of a clash. Right? Just a class Clash of personality, which I think is common on many teams. And one of the things we did is we first did this exercise, driven by by Leslie, My my business partner to really kind of talk about, what what basically, she does very well, which is talk about the The unspoken landscape.
Marc Kaye [00:42:39]:
Right? The hidden what’s hidden underneath the iceberg, if you will. Mhmm. And it kinda everybody This is one of those times when people were actually sharing a lot more than I thought people would be comfortable with. And then I came in and I did an exercise where I used the characters of The Office, and I had them all listed. And I had a short description. And in that description, if have you watched The Office by a friend? Okay. So so it doesn’t it could be any it could be any any show. But for each character, they have they have a very strong Personality.
Marc Kaye [00:43:12]:
Right? There’s a a characteristics to them that both are good and also bad. And I just kinda listed what the, This is a strength, but the flip side of that coin is, you know, the this weakness. And we went around the room, and I gave everybody a piece of paper. And I said, I’m giving away my secrets here. But I said, okay. Just write down who you think you are in the team based on these descriptions. Right? And then I gave everyone a piece of paper, and I asked them to write down who they think everybody else on the team is. And we walked around and and the and it and what was funny is is that People started referring to themselves even in, like, kind of, like, you know, when people can get touchy about their, you know, personality traits that they know, but Started referring to themselves as the character rather than as their own identity, and I think it just helped disarm and they could have a laugh about it and people To be open about it.
Marc Kaye [00:44:02]:
And I think the fact that we did the 1st psychological safety exercise first really set a level playing field to for For people to realize, we’re we’re really I know it’s a cliche, but we really are all trying to figure this thing out. Like, none of us has it figured out. We all have our own Issues. Right? I mean, whether it’s mental health issues or family issues or I mean, everyone has something. And though it makes sense that everyone would know that, you don’t come into the office typically And say to your team, you know, man, I really had a struggle, you know, with my kid on Sunday, and I’m really nervous about it. You just carry that in with you. And so being able to really level set and then come in with this exercise, I think, was, you know, it just worked out, and and I know that it’s something that they continued to To use.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:49]:
And you know what’s interesting? As soon as you said that, you know, we all have stuff going on. It’s like, I just could feel everything in me just kind of calm down even though I wasn’t in that room. There’s there’s something about acknowledging that
Marc Kaye [00:45:04]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:04]:
That that just makes everybody breathe a little bit more easily just hearing it.
Marc Kaye [00:45:11]:
Yeah. Interesting. And I I wonder if it’s because you know, I I always wonder this myself, you know, having my own team and stuff like that. You know, I I wanna I wanna create that environment myself. Obviously, this is what we do, but I always feel like it I get more Success when I’m working with other clients in my own team, and I think it’s because if it’s somebody, like a stranger or a third party coming in, there’s no hierarchy. There’s no
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:36]:
Mhmm.
Marc Kaye [00:45:37]:
You know, someone else is saying it to your point as opposed to someone that you know might be doing your performance review or you have to ask something for it. You know? And it doesn’t matter how great that relationship is. That’s just the work environment. There’s a hierarchy there or, you know, a dynamic. So I don’t know extro
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:55]:
There’s there’s power involved there somewhere, and that just always makes it a little bit more awkward. But I think even when there is power involved there, if You have that moment when everybody can be reminded that everybody’s got their own stuff.
Marc Kaye [00:46:10]:
Yeah. It does Yep.
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:11]:
It does help, Yeah. At least to some degree, maybe not, you know, to completely level things, but at least to some extent. It reminds everybody that we’re all human. We’re all doing dealing with similar things.
Marc Kaye [00:46:24]:
Yes. Yeah. And that’s and that’s kind of, again, what Leslie always she always says this and it really sticks with me. You know? She says that She, you know, she’s a therapist, and she sees people all the time that they clearly have very different world views. Right? They just they they’re But the the the Venn diagram is that they’re still has it they have this human experience. Right? They still have these Feelings that create thoughts, that create the way in which we see the world. And so, you know, what I think we’re trying to get to I don’t know about you, but, you know, I Grew up during a time, particularly in a work environment, where it was seen as being bad to be emotional or talk about feelings, especially at work. And the re reality is, you know, I’m not talking that people need to be girl interrupted or falling like Michael Douglas falling down.
Marc Kaye [00:47:16]:
Right? But Work is extremely emotional. This is how people make their livelihood, you know, how they pay for stuff, how they you know? So let’s not pretend that we’re all robots. And and as, you know, I think basic as that sounds, I actually don’t think that we’re reminded that very often or at least enough.
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:38]:
Yeah. I I agree with you, and I’m I’m still flashing back to that that book in the whole everything is between your ears. Right? Like, it’s all supposed to happen in your brain. Nothing comes from anywhere else that you might feel anything because your brain is supposed to be this emotion free zone, which is insane. That’s not how it works. But but, yeah, you know, you’re supposed to go to school and shut off your emotions just like you’re supposed to when you go to a job. You know? It’s it’s like, Whose idea was this?
Marc Kaye [00:48:08]:
I You know? Wait. Wait. If you can figure that out, I’ll, You have a book like
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:15]:
My personal theory is that it came in with the industrial revolution when we all decided that we had to be more like the machines. That’s that’s my theory. I think we’ve been trying to mechanize ourselves ever since the steam engine, but I have no scholarship to go with that.
Marc Kaye [00:48:34]:
Yeah. No. I think you’re right. I mean, the the idea is is that we You’re that’s a very good point. I never thought of it, but, like, at least in America and, I guess, other civil you know, western civilizations, you know, you’re rewarded for productivity. Productivity is not about how you feel or I mean, it’s just about getting stuff done. Right? Yeah. So it actually makes a lot of sense.
Marc Kaye [00:48:58]:
I know.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:59]:
We’re we’re just supposed to churn out the widgets no matter how we feel, no matter what’s going on.
Marc Kaye [00:49:05]:
Yeah. I would that’s that would not work for me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:08]:
Obviously healthy.
Marc Kaye [00:49:10]:
No. I know
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:11]:
it’s not.
Marc Kaye [00:49:13]:
And, actually, the widgets that we have to turn out today actually require more of the, I think feeling brain and some of the creativity, you know, than it did 1920, that’s you know, we we I think we need to change our our reward system a little bit. So
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:33]:
Oh, yeah.
Marc Kaye [00:49:44]:
Yeah. And it’s not that we you know, it’s the reality is if you if you and I work together and you were going through something and I said, you know, how are you doing or do you need help? You know, you you would talk to me if you trusted me, and then we would still do our jobs. And we feel like, oh, it’s not like we would have a 4 hour therapy session, And I’d have to go to Costco to buy a whole thing of tissues. It’s just acknowledging what’s going on as opposed to suppressing it And going through the day feeling like, you know, you’re just it’s it’s just whack a mole. It’s like I always told my kids this. You can suppress the feelings. They’re gonna show up somewhere. And, you know, people wanna know why sometimes you know, why is that person so grumpy at work all the time or why you know, it it it’s, You know, it’s not you.
Marc Kaye [00:50:29]:
I I believe me. It’s not you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:32]:
Right. Yeah. So I’m I’m just wondering how, if at all, because because my sup my supposition here could be completely wrong. But Yeah. How does how does comedy work into that for you. Do you find comedy to be an emotional outlet for things like that?
Marc Kaye [00:50:52]:
Oh my god. A 100%. Yeah. I mean, I think in much healthier ways now. Do do you mean, like, just in general or, like, in a work in a work situation? Or
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:01]:
In whatever way it works for you.
Marc Kaye [00:51:04]:
Yeah. I mean, all all, d, all of the above. I mean, I think As do other creative outlets like playing piano and and and writing, but but comedy in particular, I mean, on a hourly basis. You know, I think when I was younger, and, Yeah. I wasn’t popular, and, like, you know, everyone’s got their their story or whatever. But, you know, I I I could use comedy as a way to Deflect or it was, you know, this I’m not the only one. This is a very common defense mechanism. But, you know, it Quickly can turn into self deprecation, which is is not great for you be being me, and it’s uncomfortable for comfortable for everybody else.
Marc Kaye [00:51:50]:
So that wasn’t the healthiest approach. But I think, you know, over time, it’s migrated to being something about, it’s It’s like the best pair of glasses because it’s just something that allows me to filter just sort of the hilariousness of everything. I mean, look at what I’m I’m getting older. Things are changing. Stuff is happening that I don’t understand. Like, there’s just a perspective. And and at work in particular, you know, I think I read 90% of US companies are going through some sort of transformation or change. There’s a lot more layoffs.
Marc Kaye [00:52:26]:
The pandemic has completely changed the the game, particularly with younger generations. These are, You know, not easy times. And I think, this idea of of change, in using humor to kind of accept it and make sense of it or not, to me, is a is a game changer. I would I really am very, very, Grateful that I, you know, can look at things that way. I think where it gets just, I know I’m rambling, but the one thing I would say is where where it gets a little bit Cautious is, and you touched on it with the DEI example is people understanding that you can Take your job seriously without taking yourself seriously. And and I think that, you know, with time, Over time, that’s that’s changing, but that’s sometimes people interpret, you know, you, You know, having a healthy sense of humor or calling things what they are as not taking the job seriously when in fact, all you’re really trying to say is, like, can we just Can we all admit that this is kinda screwed up? And, you know, we’re gonna move on. But, like, you know, it’s like, let’s just let’s be honest. You know, that that type of mentality.
Marc Kaye [00:53:38]:
And and I think it’s definitely going in the right direction.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:42]:
Yeah. No. I I hear that. And I actually since I talked about this on the podcast the other week, I I had a little adventure in the ER a couple weeks go
Marc Kaye [00:53:53]:
and, you
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:53]:
know, had myself a a lovely shiner that just finally completely went away just a couple days ago. I don’t
Marc Kaye [00:53:59]:
think I was actually very wonderful. Yeah. It’s
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:01]:
like, Now it’s funny. I got so used to seeing it that now it’s weird not to. But the whole time that I was there and I was I was back actually for in treatment in the ER for maybe, like, 5 hours. That was kinda how I viewed it Because I was like, look. I will take all of your questions seriously because, obviously, you need to do what you’re gonna do. But I absolutely refuse to be serious about the fact I am in here looking like this. Yeah.
Marc Kaye [00:54:31]:
And and, I mean, the reality is is You’re gonna look that way whether you take it seriously or not.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:37]:
Right?
Marc Kaye [00:54:38]:
Right? Yeah. So, you know, obviously, there’s certain things that are you cannot it’s It’s very hard to find the humor in, but something like that, I think it says a lot about you and the way you you know, this is just life. It’s gonna it’s just gonna be messy sometimes. And, I I think it’s, I I you know, one of the things I write about Whitford, our blog on Vital Connects is that humor is a It’s a superpower, you know, and, it’s a muscle. And and like creativity, I think some people go, I I’m not funny. I’m not. And, actually, I think everybody has there’s 4 types of humor in this whole thing, but, everybody has the opportunity. It’s just it’s Fear.
Marc Kaye [00:55:16]:
Right? It’s very it’s it’s, you know, you don’t have to get up on stage, but even, like, trying to show that side of yourself to people sometimes It’s a very uncomfortable, you know, premise for certain people.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:29]:
Yeah. And yet, When when you’re sitting there in the ER and your face is swollen up and you look like you got beaten up by a gang Yeah. You know, or attacked by dinosaurs or, you know Yes. Aliens or whatever. Insert your curiosity.
Marc Kaye [00:55:43]:
I’m gonna have to hear your going on with stories. We’re coming
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:46]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, it was just like it you know? I mean, really.
Marc Kaye [00:55:50]:
I mean, there’s your there’s your book. There’s your book. We should write a story. We should write a chapter on every story about what the that you told about about your
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:58]:
That could be hilarious. Yeah. That really could be hilarious.
Marc Kaye [00:56:03]:
And and it’d be so funny.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:05]:
But, honestly, I mean, the whole the whole time we were there was hilarious. And no doubt that was also fueled by adrenaline and sleep deprivation at that point because it was 3 AM when I got home. But but still, You know, it’s just like, no way, man. No way I’m gonna sit here and not laugh at this because why not? You know?
Marc Kaye [00:56:22]:
Yeah. I mean Sleep Sleep sleep deprivation and adrenaline is how most comedians get their material. So we could just we should just go for it at this point.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. That makes sense. They’re they’re powerful fuel for all sorts of weird brain connections for sure.
Marc Kaye [00:56:42]:
True.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:43]:
So yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming and talking to me. This was a lot of fun.
Marc Kaye [00:56:50]:
It was. I really appreciate the time. Thanks so much.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:54]:
That’s this week’s episode. My thanks to Marc Kaye for joining me and to you for listening. Please leave a review for this episode. There is a link right in your podcast app. And in it, tell us about a time when humor made something easier for you. If you enjoyed our conversation, please share it with a friend. Thank you so much. If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now.
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:21]:
Join me at the spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage. It’s free, and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners. The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, Please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners