Navigating Feedback and Building Creative Confidence with Amber Petty

Amber Petty helps creatives get bylines and build audiences. She’s written for the New York Times, Parade, Bustle, and others, and her clients have been published in outlets like the New Yorker, Washington Post, New York Times and many more. Amber talks with me about how she moved from teaching singing to teaching freelancing, how easy it is to downplay our accomplishments when we really should give ourselves credit for them, how to take feedback, and more.

Episode breakdown:

00:00 Introduction
01:56 Losing job led to full-time freelancing and shift in focus.
03:45 Pandemic inspired helping performers explore alternative side gigs.
05:06 Initial workshop success revealed a real demand for guidance.
06:42 Freelance writing felt more natural and sustainable than voice lessons.
08:32 Previous failures provided valuable lessons for current business success.
11:03 Business doesn’t have to feel hard to be worthwhile.
12:43 Take the easy path—hard enough already for perfectionists.
14:18 Writing doesn’t always need to be grueling or tortured.
15:58 Feedback is easier when you’re getting paid as a freelancer.
18:26 Editors focus on fitting articles, not judging your talent.
22:33 Read editorial feedback in a friendly, not critical, voice.
24:09 Creatives often undervalue or dismiss their legitimate achievements.
28:39 Small victories matter—acknowledge courage to pitch and publish.
33:48 Freelancing provided more satisfaction and momentum than acting.
36:57 Diverse backgrounds enrich your approach to writing and teaching.
40:33 Theater and improv help with webinars, workshops, and engagement.

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Transcript: Amber Petty

Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Amber Petty helps creatives get bylines and build audiences. She’s written for the New York Times, Parade, Bustle and others, and her clients have been published in outlets like the New Yorker, Washington Post, New York Times, and many more. Amber talks with me about how she moved from teaching singing to teaching freelancing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:37]:
How easy it is to downplay our accomplishments when we really should give ourselves credit for them, how to take feedback and more. Here’s my conversation with Amber Petty. Amber, welcome back to Follow Your Curiosity.

Amber Petty [00:00:50]:
Yay.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:51]:
Hello.

Amber Petty [00:00:52]:
Thank you for having me here.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:53]:
It’s great to have you back. So since you have been here before, we have already gone through your creative history and you know, when you were here before, you were teaching singing lessons online, which was, you know, eons ago, comparatively speaking. And now you teach folks how to do freelance writing. And I’m really curious because I do not know the answer to this, even though I have been following you doing this for a while and how you made this switch.

Amber Petty [00:01:29]:
Yeah, so I was. So the voice lessons business kind of came about from, you know. Yeah. A coaching program they were both in. And I was, I knew I wanted to start some kind of business, but I wasn’t sure what. And so that one seemed fun and interesting and like aligned with what I did and was good at. And so. But it also ended up coming at a time where I was doing that.

Amber Petty [00:01:56]:
And then I lost my. I got laid off from my full time job, so I had to do just freelance. So I was both scrambling to make a regular amount of income and then trying to keep this business afloat in a very early stage. And I just, like, didn’t have the wherewithal to do it, you know, I just didn’t. So I stopped doing the voice lessons business and I just did more freelance writing and copywriting and eventually got a different copywriting job and that kind of stuff. So the idea of having a business still was appealing to me. But for a while I thought, well, okay, well, I learned I can’t do it by myself. I need somebody else just to.

Amber Petty [00:02:41]:
Because it’s just bearing the load of everything all the time, you know, and you have to talk a lot about your business and be, you know, like, it’s just a lot to do. And I thought, and at the time I just, like, didn’t have, I couldn’t do it. So I thought, okay, well, maybe I’ll find one eventually that I can do with somebody else. And then during the. Then the pandemic happened, and I was working from home. I still had a copywriting job, but I was realizing this job is still totally at risk. Not that they were doing poorly because of the pandemic. They were fine.

Amber Petty [00:03:18]:
They just ran things poorly. And I was getting tired of doing a ton of work for somebody. I was like, if I’m working myself to death, I’d rather do it for myself. So I just had that idea in mind. But still, I was looking for, like. I was like, oh, I’ll. Maybe I’ll just go into email copywriting specifically, because that’s a little more potentially lucrative and all that stuff. And during that time, then all of my.

Amber Petty [00:03:45]:
Lots of my friends, actors and performers now had not only no acting jobs, but no waiting table, you know, serving jobs, barista jobs, whatever, it was all gone. And I was like, there’s job. You shouldn’t be working those jobs anyway. Like, there’s other jobs you can do. Not again that there’s anything bad about it. And serving is the best thing for people, some people to do. But a lot of them were super unhappy with that and wanted to do something else anyway. So I was like, let me put together a workshop about, you know, side jobs that performers can do and like, the pluses and minuses of them.

Amber Petty [00:04:23]:
And then just to see, I’ll do. I’ll have a coaching section on it. I’ll sell like four or five coaching sessions for $200. Coaching being. Helping you find something else. You know, what could you start to get in motion now? So I just did that. And then I got like 77 signups for my first one, you know, posting it amongst groups and people. I was in for the webinar and got.

Amber Petty [00:04:55]:
Eventually, eventually got 150 people the webinar and like, 17 people signed up for coaching, which was very exciting to me.

Nancy Norbeck [00:05:04]:
Sure.

Amber Petty [00:05:06]:
And I realized, like, wow, it’s very fun to do. Like, webinars are very fun for me to do, and it’s fun to offer my own thing. And so doing those coaching sessions, I found people wanted to know about freelance writing, of course, because that’s what I did. It made sense they would come to me for that. So I found that out and then like, put out a workshop and put out a short course, and then did my full first freelance writing course four years ago now. And I told myself, like, if I saved a certain amount of money separately from my job, then that’s When I would quit. And that happened, like, in my first launch.

Nancy Norbeck [00:05:43]:
Wow.

Amber Petty [00:05:44]:
So I was very surprised by that. My first big launch. I had done some workshops and stuff like that before. So then. Yeah. So later that year, then I quit my job and did this. And it kept evolving because now it’s still about freelance writing, but also about more just pitching articles and growing your audience and ways as writers you can build an audience and make a career for yourself. So it continues to change.

Amber Petty [00:06:15]:
But. Yeah. And this time I just. I don’t know if my just depression medication worked better or just I was in a different place. But, like, I also. It didn’t feel like I was fighting upstream. It felt like, hey, I have something to offer that makes sense to people. It’s not that it was like a viral success, you know, but enough that it’s like, this has brought in some money.

Amber Petty [00:06:42]:
It’s clearly interesting to people. It’s clearly helpful to people, and it’s stuff that I know a lot about and like to talk about. And so that combination has made it much easier for me to then be able to keep going and talking about it a bunch and all that, because more of that sounds exciting than daunting. Sometimes it’s daunting still, but most of the time, it’s exciting. And as opposed to with my voice lessons business, which eventually just felt like, I don’t know, I just didn’t, like, believe in it enough, I guess I was just like, oh, Jesus, how am I gonna get enough people? And then. Oh. But I have to explain so much, you know, I. I mean, I probably just had the wrong attitude, but it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:07:28]:
Could just be that this is the differences, that this is more the right thing, you know?

Amber Petty [00:07:33]:
Yeah. That’s a lot of it. It’s just more the right thing. And it’s easier. It’s easier. Not in that. It’s not in that. Like.

Amber Petty [00:07:45]:
Yeah. Again, everything just pops off immediately. But it just solves a more immediate problem that people are looking to. So that. That does make it much easier for me.

Nancy Norbeck [00:07:59]:
Yeah. I mean, I think it’s just a more natural fit for you and for them. Yeah. Yeah. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. So that’s me, because I do remember when I first saw that you were doing the freelancing thing, and it wasn’t that long after you had been here, and I was like, whoa, that’s a big switch. So it’s interesting to hear how it happened.

Nancy Norbeck [00:08:28]:
But that’s really cool that it all came together that way.

Amber Petty [00:08:32]:
Yeah. And it’s you know, it’s like all of the. And all of the. I mean, everybody says this, but all the failures along the way were fine. Like the fact that that business didn’t work out. And so I didn’t just, like, force myself to keep going when I just knew I wasn’t going to be able to, like. Great. I’m so glad I did.

Amber Petty [00:08:56]:
I tried lots of little things, you know, in the meantime and being able to try, like, do I want to be more of a regular journalist? No, I don’t. After trying it, do I want to be more this. No, I don’t. Do I want to be more of this? A ghostwriter? Nope, I don’t. I didn’t really like any of that process. So you. So in some ways it is. If you looked at it while it was happening, it looked like it was just trying a bunch of stuff and being a flake and quitting everything.

Amber Petty [00:09:25]:
If you look at it now, it’s, like, cool. I got to learn more quickly of what actually was working and what wasn’t. And so that only made it easier to be dedicated to the business. That felt easier. And still with all of that, it wasn’t like I went into the freelancing stuff being like, I’m nailing it. This is definitely a hit. I still was, like, so worried. I was like, I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to leave my job.

Amber Petty [00:09:51]:
Like, all that stuff still happened, but the base of it was. Felt much more secure. So instead of the worries sort of being 95% like it was before, the worries were like little surface ripples, you know, as opposed to a massive storm in the sea. And so that’s easier to like, yeah, I get it. I’m a human. I’m worried. But let’s still just keep giving it a try.

Nancy Norbeck [00:10:23]:
Yeah. And, you know, I think that a lot of people think that if you are going to go out there and be brave enough to start something on your own, and let’s be real, it’s a brave thing to do that it’s going to be this daunting, arduous, rolling the boulder up the mountain every single day kind of thing. And yeah, I think that you have to be prepared for a decent chunk of that. But I think if you are really rolling the boulder up the mountain every single day, something probably isn’t what it should be. Like.

Amber Petty [00:11:02]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:11:03]:
You know, you’re either making it too hard because you think it has to be really hard, or there’s something about it that isn’t lined up the right way that, you know, like, in your case, it’s not. It’s not the thing that you’re really enthusiastic about or it’s. It’s just not. It’s not the easy thing. I think. I think really what I’m trying to say is we think that if it’s easy, it’s not right. Like, we think it needs to be hard, and so sometimes we make it hard because we think it needs to be hard. Which isn’t to say that starting a business is.

Nancy Norbeck [00:11:38]:
I’m going to roll out of bed and I’m just going to start a business. And as soon as I hang my shingle out the door, they will come. I know from experience that ain’t how it works, but that doesn’t mean that it needs to feel like, you know, you’re rolling that boulder up the mountain every single day.

Amber Petty [00:11:55]:
Yeah. It’s a thing I have to keep reminding myself of because it’s very, and I say this in my membership and courses all the time of like, especially if you’re a perfectionist or an overthinker, like, take the easy road always. Because you. You. The hard road you’ve made, you’ve chosen the hardest of roads and you think that’s the regular road. So the easy road still is probably pretty challenging, so you definitely need to take it. But then sometimes for myself, I’m like, yeah, but what a. But it’s too easy, though.

Amber Petty [00:12:30]:
I should make it harder. I still do that all the time, so. But it’s true. It’s like, take it. It will be hard enough anyway. Yes. So there’s still ways it’s all going to be hard. So take the easiest path you can get there.

Amber Petty [00:12:43]:
And with the boulder up the hill, I do feel like sometimes it’s like, for me, sometimes it’s days where I’m like, oh, my God, this boulder. And pushes boulder up the hill. And I realized, like, oh, there’s actually just like a rock in your shoe. And that’s what’s hard. You can take that out and like, oh, the boulder wasn’t actually that hard. Or it’s like, yeah, I have to do it this way. Got to push the boulder up the hill. And you can sometimes look around and go, like, but it’s flat over there and it’ll still get to the same place.

Amber Petty [00:13:08]:
And you go, oh, okay. And sometimes that’s very hard to do to, like, look around like, is there a different way I can do this and it’s okay and it won’t be better If I do it the harder way. And I think that was writing a lot in particular too, where there is so much talk and almost like a fetishize, fetishization of like, oh, it’s, you’re putting your heart on the page and you’re, you know, oh, it’s so hard and grueling and blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, well, at the end of the day we’re like making shit up and typing it, you know. So like, I don’t know that it has to be like that all the time because again, of course it still will be hard. It’s very vulnerable to take a make believe bunch of stuff or real stuff and translate that into something somebody else will then read and potentially judge you for. So that hardness is built in the rest of it. I feel like sometimes we accidentally, because of how we hear and talk about writing so much, we accidentally then add a big, you know, uncomfortable weighted blanket on top.

Amber Petty [00:14:18]:
We put, you know, we like just yes, set a boulder on our chest about it and really is like, well, I, I don’t, the boulder doesn’t help me type. What if I, what if I took that off? I, I doesn’t actually need to be hard in order to be good.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:36]:
Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, maybe, maybe this part today I really do have to roll the boulder up the hill.

Amber Petty [00:14:47]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:47]:
But then I can let it go for a while and I can go swim in the pond next to the hill for a couple of days because the hard part’s done and then I can do the easy parts, you know, like it doesn’t have to be that all the time. And you know, as we’re talking, it, it occurs to me that, you know, one of the things that, that people tend to have trouble with, with writing and my experience is somewhat more from, you know, grad school and feedback in a grad school environment. But you know, with, with freelancing. I think probably what scares people a lot when they’re starting out is, oh God, I have to work with an editor and they’re going to hate me. Or I sent my piece off to the editor and they had feedback and now they hate me because feedback is so difficult for a lot of us to deal with. And I’m really curious to hear what your experience has been with people who are getting started with that kind of thing.

Amber Petty [00:15:58]:
Yeah, well, I, I think oddly that feedback is a lot easier in, when you’re getting paid. So like when the editor is paying you to write a story and they now, because the reason why I Think that feedback is easier is because they are the arbiters of what works or doesn’t work for this particular story and publication. So there’s less of a, well, do I need to listen to this person? Or. Yeah, somebody has that opinion, but I disagree. But maybe I should listen to them. It’s just a little more black and white. It’s like, well, they’re the one publishing it. I need to listen to them to some degree.

Amber Petty [00:16:35]:
To me, that black and whiteness actually takes some of the scariness away. But of course, when you first. When you first write something, I think it’s just unavoidable that as you send it in, your thoughts will be, well, I did it. I wrote the worst thing ever. They will hate me, tell me how much they hate me, and probably tell everyone I don’t know on earth to not let me write again. That’s just like the natural thought process, I feel like. And so one, if you have that, it’s like you’re not doing anything wrong or bad. It’s just a scary thing and it’s brand new.

Amber Petty [00:17:15]:
So part of it is like, yeah, let yourself. Just let yourself feel scared for a second. And then you can go back and remember this is just one story in their day that they are dealing with. Even if they hated behooves them to work with you to get it published because that makes their life easier. And even if they hated you and said no to this story, it only means that that one editor doesn’t like you at this one place. And there are many more editors with editors. That editor might not even work there for very much longer. You know, people change jobs so quickly.

Amber Petty [00:17:52]:
So it’s okay that you feel bad or scared. Don’t. Don’t worry about that. Then it’s remembering, even if the worst thing happened, this editor hated you. It would just mean, okay, I lost that one story from one person. There’s still so many other people that I can reach out to. And when you have big rejections too, it is all just like fodder for future stories to make that person feel bad, you know, because it’s just like, great. You.

Amber Petty [00:18:26]:
Every famous writer has a story of somebody that rejected them in a way that is now comical. So, like, now you have that story, cool. You’ll get to use it someday. Then when you get feedback, the big thing to remember for feedback is it’s honestly for newspapers and stuff, it’s really not about your writing at all. In a way, it’s just about making it fit what that publication needs. So half of it, sometimes more than half, is just style guidelines that they are enforcing that are beyond just like Chicago Style and AP Style, you know, it’s particular style guidelines that they know that they don’t expect a freelancer to know. So half of it is just that kind of stuff. The other big chunk is, all right, now, I’m going to shape it so that our audience will respond to it the most.

Amber Petty [00:19:16]:
That again, they don’t expect the writer to know that that’s the stuff that they know that they are going to put in here because they know that’s what their audience will respond to the most. That’s what they’ll click on, that’s what they’ll enjoy, that’s what they’ll be more likely to comment on. So all of those things are really just to make it fit the publication and then make it more attractive to readers. And then the other little percentage is just naturally, sometimes when we are telling a story and somebody else is reading it, they just see like little holes we left in because you did all the research, you had all the ideas. Sometimes we cut a part out and forget we’ve got to put something back in or vice versa. So then it’s just those little things of like, wait, what is this here? And you’re like, oh, yeah, I forgot to tell you. Or you realize, oh yeah, I said the exact same thing twice in a row. You know, just little bits.

Amber Petty [00:20:11]:
We naturally, no matter who you are, you just don’t see on your own that another person can see easily because they’re looking at it without all the story in your head, right? Without all the information that’s in your head. So that’s the thing with feedback is that. And with an editor, I’m trying to think if it’s. I did have one editor that didn’t like me, and then I did get fired. And guess what happened? I still had a fucking career. That didn’t matter. I wrote for the new. I wrote for way better places, in fact, after that.

Amber Petty [00:20:45]:
So anyway, editors aren’t teachers. They’re not here to like. They’re not judging you because you can get scared of feedback. Because if you sometimes in writing programs, it is mean, judgy. Their job isn’t to be mean and judgy, to teach you a lesson. Their job is to. They have a thing. They want to make it better.

Amber Petty [00:21:08]:
They want it to be popular. So it’s all coming from that point of view of, yep, we’re now just going to fit it to our publication. We’re going to fit it to our readers. And then just the little bit of cleanup that comes when anybody writes something for other people. So remembering that is helpful. Again, totally fine to be scared that they hate you, but it’s really remembering they absolutely don’t. And that it’s just. And it’s.

Amber Petty [00:21:35]:
It’s really, like, not about you at all. It’s now just about this article and making it fit. And then the last little thing I say that I think really does help. It’s silly, but it helps, is that when we read Feedback, we tend to read it in our head in a very, very bitchy voice of like, what’s the story here? Where’s the. Where’s the evidence of, like, where’s the link? And then of course, you’re like, oh, my God, well, fuck you. Or like, oh, this person hates me. And instead, like, try to read it in, like a Bob Ross voice. Read it in a calming voice.

Amber Petty [00:22:07]:
Because if you read it, like, where’s the link? Oh, let’s have more information here. What’s another source here? It’s the same exact words, but you hear it how they actually intend it to be heard, which is, hey, I. I just want more information. I don’t hate you. I just need to. I need to clarify a couple things. So that is my little trick that does. Does actually help.

Amber Petty [00:22:33]:
Helps you kind of actually read it instead of reading it through that initial either fu impulse or the I am terrible impulse that tends to pop up with feedback.

Nancy Norbeck [00:22:47]:
You’re reminding me of that Walt Whitman quote that Ted Lasso reminded us all of a couple years ago. They be curious, not judgmental.

Amber Petty [00:22:55]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:22:56]:
Going into it with curiosity instead of just assuming the worst, which I think most of us tend to jump to the latter rather than doing the former. But it’s a great way to, to look at it.

Amber Petty [00:23:09]:
Yeah. And they don’t hate. They really don’t hate you. Like, they, they really. Again, I know, I know because I’ve worked with people that, that do hate you or that they want to be mean, you know? And so I, I know the difference. They don’t. They. They don’t hate you.

Amber Petty [00:23:29]:
They’re just making the story a little better. Some are super, super nice about it. Some are just more, like, blunt, like, just because they don’t have time. But, like, they’re not mean. It’s so rare, honest, honestly, to have a mean editor. In my experience and my students experience, like, I just think with all the students, I’ve had, like, hundreds of students. I think maybe one of Them had a mean editor one time, and I’ve had a mean editor one time in like nine years. So those are the actual numbers we’re dealing with.

Amber Petty [00:24:06]:
Very, very, very low.

Nancy Norbeck [00:24:09]:
And those are. Those are very encouraging numbers, for sure. Yeah. So I’m wondering, you know, and actually, before we move on to anything else, I think it’s easy to forget that they did decide to take your pitch and give you money for it. You know, like, they wouldn’t be giving you money to write this piece if they did not want to give you money to write the piece in the first place.

Amber Petty [00:24:37]:
Yes, it is a. It should be studied how so many creative minds can jump hoop upon hoop to discredit what they do. I’m very good at it as well, where it’s like, well, they just. I don’t know, they just wanted to be nice or they just needed this or. Well, they’re just. They don’t. They want to let me down easy or. Well, it’s not real.

Amber Petty [00:24:58]:
Okay, it did get published, but it’s not really a big deal. Okay, it is in the New York Times, but it’s not a store. It’s not a headline story. I mean, it’s ridiculous. And we’ll do that forever. Tons of people. And so. And I think that when you’re used to being that way, that then having even just like a regular level of confidence feels very like, oh, my God, I’m a cocky monster now.

Amber Petty [00:25:23]:
And it’s not. You can go, hey, they published it and they paid me money. I guess I did a good job. That’s not saying you did the greatest job in the world and everyone else should quit writing because you’re in town. It just means, hey, I did do a good job. They paid me. And yeah, they’re not going to pay you out of pity.

Nancy Norbeck [00:25:42]:
Right.

Amber Petty [00:25:43]:
Or because, like, they’re. When money comes in, the niceness ends. They’re not doing that out of this. That, Ah, my charity. I’ll use part of my budget for charity that we’re all overworked and need a million things and I have no time for this, so let’s give it to this port. Like, no, I like that idea. I need that idea. I will pay for the idea.

Amber Petty [00:26:04]:
Thank you for giving me the idea. Right, great. Here are the words. Let me fix them up in ways I wouldn’t expect the writer to do. And done. That’s. That’s the reality. Money.

Amber Petty [00:26:16]:
Yeah. Once money’s involved, like, you don’t ever have to worry about. About them just, like, being kind to you. They’re kind, probably, and they actually want it and are very happy to work with you. You still hear from editors all the time of like, how meaningful it is to be able to work with writers they can rely on. And so often when I ask editors about, you know, things to stand out and stuff like that, the number one answer is always just turn your work in on time or be community communicative if it can’t be on time. That’s the number one thing, the thing that all of us, overthinkers and perfectionists especially would do without thinking that’s they’re like, please just turn it in on time. So you’re like being communicative, giving them a good idea, turning things in on time, doing a thorough job, you know, not a perfect, perfect overthought job.

Amber Petty [00:27:16]:
But like, I’ve thought it through, I’ve double checked it. It’s clean looking. That’s very appreciated to them. That’s very appreciated. And they show the appreciation through, yes, the money that they’re giving you. So it is important to recognize all those, all those like little victorious steps along the way because otherwise you will write a novel or write a book or have something that’s a big hit and you will still think, yeah, but it’s not. Well, but yeah, it just like got lucky or yet you’ll, that will last forever. But if you start going, you know what, even if they hate me, hey, just in my mind, I have it, they hate me and it’s not going away.

Amber Petty [00:28:02]:
That’s okay. But at the end of the day, they did want to pay me, so at least I have that in my corner. Oh, it turned out they didn’t hate me, they’re just busy and they got notes to me and it was fine. Cool. Isn’t that nice? That I was able to like work pretty easily with that editor must mean I’m doing a pretty good job. It’s very hard, it’s very hard to give yourself credit for stuff, especially small stuff. I know I was very, I don’t even understand how I was like very trained against that in my life. And I always think about, I always think of this quote when I’m like, why am I like that? And I’m like, this is why.

Amber Petty [00:28:39]:
And I saw the Lion King on Broadway with my dad when I graduated my acting school. And you know, the Lion King on Broadway is known for its stagecraft and everything. And there was one part where people started clapping just after. It wasn’t a song, it was just like a sequence that looked cool. And people just started clapping in the middle of the scene. And my dad went, what are we doing? Clapping for paper mache. And that’s how I feel. So anytime I want to give myself credit, I’m like, what am I doing clapping for paper Mache? So if you have a similar thought in your head, yes, do clap for that Paper mache.

Amber Petty [00:29:18]:
That’s some fucking expensive paper mache. Award. Awards. You may think it’s paper mache, but a lot of people said this is worth hundreds of dollars to see and all the awards. So, yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:29:31]:
Yeah. Wow. Wow. But it does. It does show how easily we discredit ourselves.

Amber Petty [00:29:38]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:29:38]:
When really, you know, it takes. It takes time and thought to come up with the pitch in the first place. It takes courage to submit it to an editor and hope that they’ll say yes. And then it takes effort and more thought to actually turn it into the piece and resubmit it and hope that it’s okay and that they’ll take it and get. Get. You’ll get paid for it. I mean, there’s. There’s a lot that goes into that, and it’s.

Nancy Norbeck [00:30:06]:
It’s all putting yourself out there, even if it’s not, you know, in a. It’s. It’s in a public way, but it’s. It’s your words on a page rather than, you know, you standing up there on a stage going, oh, God, here I am. Don’t throw tomatoes at me. But it still is really courageous to do that, and it deserves a lot of credit. And I think, you know, I think a lot of women in particular, you know, it’s trained into us that we should just kind of be quiet and unobtrusive and not do things that attract that much attention and, you know, be more for others than ourselves. And so it’s hard for us to take that kind of credit.

Nancy Norbeck [00:30:51]:
It feels like we’re going out and breaking the rules in ways that we’re not supposed to.

Amber Petty [00:30:56]:
But.

Nancy Norbeck [00:30:56]:
But that doesn’t change the fact that we deserve the credit for being courageous and taking that step to go out and say, hey, I have this idea. You interested? And then actually producing it and working with someone else. And we should not try to poo poo that. You know, it takes effort and talent and courage to do those things.

Amber Petty [00:31:21]:
And then even if you have to, because I feel like I had to kind of trick myself for a while of like, to give myself credit for things, you know, so in. So if I didn’t want to, I would at least think well, the more you give your credit for yourself along the way, the. The easier it will be to keep doing it. So even if you don’t think you deserve the credit or whatever, well, you want to keep going, right? So by starting to do this, then it will make everything easier. And I have found that that’s really true because, like, it wasn’t a fake it till you make it moment, per se. But even if I thought, why am I clapping for Paper Mache? I still would clap for a second and just not even celebrate it. But just think to myself quietly, hey, that’s really cool that you did that. Good job, and just actually believe that for a second, and that’s it, and then move on.

Amber Petty [00:32:18]:
And the more I’ve done that, the more I’ve been able to sometimes go into writing projects where I’m thinking, wow, this is great. Oh, my God, what a great job. I realized. I thought that in a rough draft the other day, and I was almost like, oh, they’re police gonna come. It’s like, it’s not allowed to think your rough draft is good. I was like, oh, my God, what’s wrong with me? And then it was like, well, one. It’s not like I’m gonna go send it off like this. Nailed it.

Amber Petty [00:32:48]:
Read them and wait, boys. Like, no, I still understand there’s room for improvement and all that stuff, but, like, isn’t it. Isn’t it nicer to not constantly hate myself while I’m doing it? The answer is yes. So those little bits can actually add up over time.

Nancy Norbeck [00:33:07]:
Yeah.

Amber Petty [00:33:08]:
Even just in making it easier for you to do what you want to do anyway?

Nancy Norbeck [00:33:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. Even if you could only be, you know, 3% more comfortable giving yourself credit with something over time, that 3% adds up really does. Yeah. So I’m. I’m curious to know, like, what surprised you the most when you started freelancing yourself, and if that’s the same thing that surprised you most when you started teaching others or if it was something different that surprised you when you started teaching.

Amber Petty [00:33:48]:
Yeah, when I started freelancing for myself, what surprised me most was, like, how satisfying it was because I was still acting at the time, like, full time or, you know, trying to act full time. And so I was surprised how satisfying it felt, and I was surprised that, like, by the forward momentum of it. And so, again, it mostly just shows you how terrible acting is. The freelance writing felt so, like, lucrative and easy, really. That really gives you a glimpse. But it was. It just felt like, yeah, I’m not getting 100% of anything I’m applying for or doing, but I am getting something regularly enough and then seeing my own words out there. And again, I was writing for things like Snooki from the Jersey Shores blog, stuff like that, nothing fancy.

Amber Petty [00:34:44]:
And just seeing that out there was satisfying. It just felt like, oh, I’m getting to actually use these creative skills that I have, not in the way I intended with acting, but in a different way. And that was so much more satisfying than waiting around. So that satisfaction is what was most surprising to me when I started freelance writing. Then when I started my business, I think what was most surprising and with teaching people, I think what was most surprising is that it did feel like, because I went through big times where it was like, hey, good job. You, like, wasted your life. You know, good job spending all that time on acting and singing lessons and all that kind of stuff. Great job.

Amber Petty [00:35:26]:
That’s worthless. And then I, you know, wasn’t feeling that way as much. But then when I started my business, it did feel like this magic, like a movie or something of like, oh, all the little bits of my life came to life and made a beautiful ball gown for me. It’s just like every little bit came back and oh, remember that thing you forgot? It’s actually helpful here and blah. Like, it did have this feeling of like, oh my God, like all of these things that I have done and have experience with make me different and in a good way and allow me to. To do this easily and in a way that I feel is very fun and interesting and how much I like, I. What? Because I wasn’t sure how much I would like doing webinars or teaching and stuff like that. And I was like, no, it’s very fun for me.

Amber Petty [00:36:16]:
I’ve very much like doing it. And I like getting to create my own material and all that stuff. So. So that’s what my business felt like. Of just how exciting it was that it felt. It just did feel like a culmination of all these disparate elements finally coming to work together and being glad and opposed to like, oh, how strange that I’ve had this, like, bizarre career path of many jobs and backgrounds. It was like, hooray for all of that. That actually made it better and easier for me and made me stand out and all that kind of stuff.

Amber Petty [00:36:57]:
So that was the biggest surprise, starting my business for sure.

Nancy Norbeck [00:37:02]:
Yeah, I’ve often heard that, you know, the idea that nothing is wasted. And that makes a lot of sense to me. You know, you can take these Circuitous routes, but somehow it will all end up coming together. But I am especially curious since you mentioned that your creative theater skills were not wasted. That’s not something that would be really obvious to a lot of people. And so I’m really, really wondering exactly how you’ve applied those theater skills to freelancing.

Amber Petty [00:37:39]:
Yeah. So not everybody has to run their business the same way, but being able to. So you don’t have to do webinars and workshops and stuff like that, but being able to do them is not bad. It’s. It’s not. I think it’s kind of an easier way to start for a lot of the time. So the fact that I am going to, you know, basically perform something, and because those kind of things are more of a performance than a workshop, or it’s closer to, like, you know, public speaking than it is to teaching in front of a class. Because a lot of it isn’t back and forth.

Amber Petty [00:38:18]:
It’s information to the audience with moments of back and forth. So, yeah, it’s more like public speaking. So that’s the thing I’m very comfortable with. And I am good at maintaining my energy despite what I’m getting back. So. Meaning some people are like, oh, zooms are so hard because you can’t tell how people are reacting. Well, I’ve done many shows to people actively not enjoying it. But you still.

Amber Petty [00:38:42]:
And I know for a fact, like, if you maintain your energy, the people that are still there will still like it, or you’ll win people back. Or even if you don’t, you at least feel better about you. Like, you still did your show. So I know how to do that, which is good because, yeah, with zooms, you don’t know, and you don’t know how it’s working all the time, but I know that I can still deliver something at a certain energy and that and trust that that is engaging to people. So that’s very helpful. I mean, I don’t know. I do think as a. As a business owner, sometimes you do have to put your feelings aside and, like, the show must go on.

Amber Petty [00:39:24]:
I don’t try to do that as much as I used to, because I used to be like, it doesn’t matter what’s happening in my life. I still have to just be a productive robot. So I don’t say that. But occasionally there is shit that’s happening in your life and you need to make money. And so being able to compartmentalize that just for a moment and show up to do whatever you’re supposed to do for your business. Just lets it run. That’s a definite thing you get good at at theater. In theater that I’m very good at.

Amber Petty [00:39:55]:
And then I did tons of improv and so it just makes me comfortable. I know I can talk. I know I can talk to people and it will be fine. I know I can stay engaging and especially because I don’t have to be funny the whole time like improv. I just have to be, you know, specific and interesting. Then it feels like there’s no pressure at all. So those are all things I use in workshops and public speaking and even teaching lessons and stuff like that. That lots of writers don’t have a background in doing any of that stuff.

Amber Petty [00:40:33]:
So it’s basically, I just had tons of practice before I got here. That just makes those public facing pieces of business a lot easier for. Well, or feels easier to me.

Nancy Norbeck [00:40:47]:
It’s a really interesting point about the energy level. In particular, it’s daunting when you’re on Zoom and you can’t see people or you can’t see very many people. I mean, that is. I don’t want to say it’s. What’s the right word? Like disheartening. But it certainly can be if you’re not used to it, because it’s. It’s weird to essentially talk to what feels like a. An empty or mostly empty room.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:22]:
I mean, it is like you’re talking to yourself and like, you know, I, I do my pep talk episodes. Literally it’s me and my phone. So I’m used to that for short periods of time. I’ve never had to do it for a long period of time. I don’t know what that would be like, but, you know, I can do it for a couple of minutes. But it’s. It is a very, very strange vibe. And I’ve, you know, it’s been a long time since I’ve done community theater.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:49]:
But you definitely can tell, you know, when you have a really reactive audience and when the audience is just kind of sitting there. Yeah, it’s tough. It’s really tough.

Amber Petty [00:42:02]:
It’s tough. And even with those audiences, though, that are just sitting there sometimes, I mean, sometimes they don’t like it and you can feel it. But I’ve just done and seen so many examples where either the performer that still just even like went harder despite the energy, either gained a fan from the one person that liked the show, or you don’t actually know what the audience thinks. And I had one show where backstage, the audience usually was really Loud. It was a comedy show. This audience was so quiet. And it was in, like, Vail, Colorado. And during intermission, me and the other lead were like, God, they are not into this.

Amber Petty [00:42:44]:
And then the stage manager who worked at that theater all year, we were just touring, he worked there, and he’s like, I’ve never heard the crowd go so crazy. They love you guys. And after the show, they loved it. Like, I’ve had many shows like that. So even sometimes when they’re quiet, you don’t. You. You assume they don’t like it. And sometimes they are truly just listening and taking it in.

Amber Petty [00:43:12]:
And so when you shrink back because of the quiet, then you’re making it more likely they are going to disengage. And when you can just go, no, this is my show. And you just keep that energy up, like, they come with you. That’s a weird. And that’s like a weird skill I have from doing, like, comedy more than even regular theater. So. Anyway. But it’s.

Amber Petty [00:43:38]:
It’s very helpful. And, yeah, you don’t. You don’t know. I’ve had some quiet audiences where you thought, they hate this. And then afterwards they’re like, ah. Oh, my God, that was so good. I loved it. Yeah, they were just that one audience.

Amber Petty [00:43:51]:
I don’t know, all those. Yeah, Fancy veil people were just internally laughing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:43:58]:
Yeah. That’s so interesting. That’s so interesting. It just shows that, you know, your. Your feeling can be totally wrong based on. On what you’re experiencing.

Amber Petty [00:44:10]:
Yeah. And that kind of goes back to our whole thing about editors. Like. Yeah, we get so sure of what people are feeling and thinking about us that we don’t even realize that that’s just an option. That’s not a fact. It’s not a fact. The editor hates you. It’s not a fact.

Amber Petty [00:44:28]:
The audience hates you. It’s not a fact. The zoom doesn’t like it. None of those are facts. We have some evidence, maybe, but half the time we’re making it up out of whole cloth. So remembering. Yeah, it’s an option. They hate me.

Amber Petty [00:44:41]:
It’s also an option. They love it. It’s also an option. They’re busy. It’s also an option. This is just one of. They don’t care about anybody. This is just one of ten things today.

Nancy Norbeck [00:44:51]:
Yeah. They’re just very focused and quiet and it doesn’t actually mean anything. And this is just a story that you’re telling yourself to explain the quiet. Yeah, yeah, it’s tough. But, you know, I also, you know, you Mentioned improv, and I always come back to improv. I mean, I think that that yes, and is not just an improv rule. I think it’s a life philosophy that is a great way if you can remember it often enough. And I know I certainly don’t, but when I do, it helps.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:27]:
You know, it’s kind of like, yes, this is the thing I’ve been handed, and I’m gonna do this with it, you know, rather than, no, I don’t like this, and I’m gonna fight with it because I hate it, you know?

Amber Petty [00:45:40]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:41]:
That doesn’t tend to work so well.

Amber Petty [00:45:45]:
Yeah. The idea, the and is kind of the more important part than the yes. Because the yes can make you feel like you have to literally say yes to everything or take what you’re handed. It’s really not. It’s just saying yes is I agree to what is happening. And here’s the rest. Here’s where the option comes in. Here’s where I can change things.

Amber Petty [00:46:05]:
Here’s where I can add something. And that’s, Yeah, a very helpful thing when we get stuck in those moments, which we all do, of this isn’t going well. They don’t like me. They hate this. Oh, this is terrible. Okay. Yes, it’s terrible right now. Sure.

Amber Petty [00:46:22]:
And it might not be terrible tomorrow, and they might be waiting, and I could maybe make it not terrible. I could take a break and, you.

Nancy Norbeck [00:46:32]:
Know, and something great might come out of it that I can’t foresee.

Amber Petty [00:46:36]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:46:37]:
You know, it may turn out in a completely different way than the awful thing that I am picturing right now.

Amber Petty [00:46:44]:
Yes.

Nancy Norbeck [00:46:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, you know what. Has there been someone that you’ve worked with who has really, you know, done things that have blown your mind beyond anything that you’ve expected when you started teaching?

Amber Petty [00:47:06]:
I mean, part of it is just, like, the sheer number of people is so exciting. Also, I do have a student, Julie Julia. I have two. I have a student, Judy, Julie, who’s also done a million articles. That is amazing. Julie’s, like, been in the New Yorker and, like, had a. An agent be interested in a book after something she wrote for McSweeney’s. And then it turned out that that agent didn’t get back to her, but four other agents were interested in a book proposal.

Amber Petty [00:47:42]:
And she’s also worked for the Wall Street Journal and all that kind of stuff. So that is cool. Just the amount of people, you know, I. There are therapists and doc. So many people. Doctorates in my stuff, which is so Exciting. Like, wow, that’s so sweet that you want to learn from me. And, like, the, you know, I’m like, Huffington Post and business.

Amber Petty [00:48:08]:
Huffington Post Personal and Business Insider are like half pitching hour members. I mean, that’s an exaggeration, but I mean, they’ve had a lot of articles and. And, yeah, people have been asked to be on the news from one of their pieces and. And that kind of stuff. So I don’t have as many stories that are like, and now they’re a millionaire yet. Although I certainly hope. I certainly hope so and think that’s totally possible. But so many where it’s like, oh, I thought I had no options, and now I have all of these and I’m even a professional and somebody’s paid me to write and I’m excited to keep going and see what else I can do.

Amber Petty [00:48:51]:
Like, that’s very exciting to me.

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:55]:
Yeah, absolutely. Has anybody kept acting at the same time, or have they all pretty much just said, nope, this freelancing thing is where it’s at for me. This is what I’m doing.

Amber Petty [00:49:04]:
Well, my first kind of group was more actors, but now it’s not. It’s like, way, way fewer actors. I still have some, so. I still have some. It’s been a mixed. Yeah, some people have kept acting. Some people have put more, like, acting on the side. Lots of people don’t end up are like, I didn’t like, freelance, and that’s great.

Amber Petty [00:49:29]:
Like, now you don’t have to wonder about it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:32]:
Right.

Amber Petty [00:49:32]:
Anymore. So. So, yeah, it’s been a lot of different things. Yeah, there’s been a range of some people that did kind of leave to do something else, and a lot of people who use it on the side and are able to keep acting because that’s what they want to do most. So. Yeah, mixed.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:52]:
That’s cool.

Amber Petty [00:49:52]:
A mixed bag, which I like. My goal is to not make everybody a freelance writer. My goal, hopefully, is just to show, hey, there’s a lot of writing areas you can explore. And hopefully if you can start building some of that up on your own and building up. Yeah. Your own opportunities through pitching your own audience through a newsletter or something else, building that stuff for yourself only makes your future creative projects easier. So whether you start a business from that, like me or you launch a book or it’s just something on the side for something else, but it gives you that outlet. That’s my ideal.

Nancy Norbeck [00:50:32]:
That’s great. So since we have a couple minutes, I. I can’t remember when you did this exactly. It Was maybe a couple months ago you did a musical pitching hour, I think what inspired you to do that? And I think you wrote the songs. If I remember correctly.

Amber Petty [00:50:56]:
I wrote the songs with my friend Jody, who wrote. I wrote the melodies and lyrics and he made them like actual music. He’s a real musician. So I did write them with my friend Jodi. So yeah, I started that with a coach I had. Mish Grigsty was like, well, you know, if you had to get, you know, 30,000 people to sign up and you could do whatever you wanted to do to like to do something for your business, what would it be? And I was like, I would rent out Studio 54 and do like a big huge production as a webinar and blah, blah, blah. So. So then it was like, well, that’s not.

Amber Petty [00:51:36]:
That’s not available at the moment to me, but what’s a version of that you can do? And so that was my musical webinar, which was very fun. I need to do it again. It’s very interesting because my perfectionism with writing has gotten much better. And so writing the songs was a very fun process. Then me singing and recording them, oh my God, all of my old perfectionism stuff was just like, haha, I’m back, you fool. I mean, crazy how much that came back. So it was really interesting because one, it was like, oh my God, I used to feel like this all the time. How did I manage that? So part of it for me was almost like just good.

Amber Petty [00:52:29]:
I started to chip away at this area of perfectionism that is so strong. And yeah, I need to do more with it because I think in the end I was like, kind of disappointed. Not in turnout or anything, but just like, I don’t know, I felt like I didn’t promote it enough. And then like I haven’t used the songs elsewhere. And then I’m still like, oh, should I? Because I don’t sound good enough on the songs. So there’s just like so much stupid garbage in my head around it. So it won’t. I still will use it again.

Amber Petty [00:53:06]:
I still will use it. I still think I will do it again because it is just fun. And then the other part was like, it’s just fun. I am a musical theater person. It’s fun. And a thing I tell people a lot is, you know, like, do your dumbest ideas. Not meaning they’re actually dumb, but the ideas you bring brush off as, oh, nobody liked that. Oh, that’s not good enough.

Amber Petty [00:53:28]:
So a little bit of me is like, well, let Me like practice what I preach and be like, who’s. Who needs a musical webinar? No one. But why not? Well, we all do like it. No, it was so fun and like, and I think it’s neat that it still is like an actual workshop. Like it is actually learning about how pitches work and doing it. It just has a couple, a few songs to like move it through. So it is still actually now I’m talking about again, I’m like, that was cool. Why am I so hard on myself? So I’m not, I don’t like regret it at all.

Amber Petty [00:54:09]:
I just. And it like, yeah, my, it was, it was good for me to do it that one time because it did bring out a lot of self critical stuff that I thought had gone away a little more. So that was really good. And then. And yeah, now, now that I’m talking about again, I’m like, wait a minute, you have a whole song that teaches people how to pitch. That’s a great idea. Yeah, I’ll definitely. You’ll see pieces of it again and God knows I’m sure you will see whatever random, random weird ideas in the future.

Amber Petty [00:54:48]:
As long as they sound fun to me and there’s something helpful about it to the watcher, then I will give it a try.

Nancy Norbeck [00:54:59]:
I mean it was definitely fun for us. And I remember many people really kind of, what’s the right phrase? Laughing themselves silly because it was so hilariously clever how you fit it all into a song. Right? Because who would think that anybody would ever write a song about how to pitch something, you know, but, but still, you know, I mean it is, it is your thing. So it makes sense for you to be the one to do that and to just dive right in and say, yeah, this is probably silly and fun, but that’s why I’m doing it. So why not?

Amber Petty [00:55:42]:
Yeah, So I think, and I think, and I think that’s where I disappointed myself is because I started like, because what was my real intention? My real intention was to get some people to watch it, get some people interested in my stuff. Of course, that’s what every webinar is about. And like be interesting and different and fun. Those were my intentions. All those intentions were fulfilled completely.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:06]:
Absolutely.

Amber Petty [00:56:07]:
But then I put intentions of it needs to sound 100% professional. It needs to sound. It needs to be like amazing. It needs to set the world aflame or whatever. And it’s like, well, those are impossible things for it to do. Even no matter how good of a singer I am, uh, I did not have A professional studio. I’m doing it between things. And also, I’m not.

Amber Petty [00:56:35]:
Whatever. I’m not the. You know, I’m. No, I’m not a Dell, anyway, so. And that’s not what anybody needs me to be, so.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:42]:
Right.

Amber Petty [00:56:43]:
Anyway, it’s a good example of seeing, like, in action where I screwed myself with perfectionism and how you can dial yourself back from that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:54]:
Yeah. It’s a great example of how high expectations really screw us up, because I don’t think anyone who was listening that day thought that it sounded anything other than perfectly hilarious. I mean, we were all enjoying the heck out of it. Exactly. Yeah. That’s what mattered.

Amber Petty [00:57:12]:
And my goal wasn’t for, like, what? It’s me, Bernard Telsey. Put her in Wicked tomorrow. Like, I wouldn’t even want that. Like, you. I was like, I don’t have the voice for Wicked, Telsey. I’m so sorry. No, but it’s like, that wasn’t. You know, it’s like I acted like that was the goal, whereas, like, that’s not even.

Amber Petty [00:57:35]:
I honestly wouldn’t even want that. My goal was to be entertaining. So. Anyway, so I hope that all of this doesn’t make you feel like I’m a hypocrite. I hope to not be a hypocrite. It’s just showing you, like, you can get so much better with a lot of perfectionist, perfectionistic stuff and it’s still going to be there. But, yeah, I work through it so much better than I have in the past where I cried after performances and stuff. So, you know, like, it’s all.

Amber Petty [00:58:08]:
It’s all. I’m never coming at anything of, like, I’ve solved it. It’s just. I’ve been through a lot of it. I’ve gotten better at a lot of it. Hopefully I can help other people get better and I’ll continue to have to go through it and get better and share that with you, too.

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:25]:
Yeah. I don’t think there is such a thing as a fully recovered perfectionist.

Amber Petty [00:58:29]:
No.

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:30]:
You know, I think we’re. The most we can do is continue to recover from it because there’s so much of it that comes at us from so many different places. Even, you know, when we’ve been working on it for a while, you know, there’s more stuff in more ads and more Instagram posts and more people saying, you should be this and you should be that, that. It’s. It’s constantly swimming upstream. So, yeah, you can never. I don’t think you can ever really totally dismantle it, but you do the best you can with it, and, you know, you discovered that it wasn’t quite as gone as you thought it was.

Amber Petty [00:59:11]:
Yeah. And so that’s good. That, like, helped me. That’s helped. That’s good. And. And the amount of time I spend upset and scared and over perfectionism, that’s the part that’s reduced the most dramatically. So that’s what I think is hopeful of, like.

Amber Petty [00:59:31]:
Yeah. The flares of things will always be there. And sometimes it’s good. It means you do a better job for somebody, you know, but the time in between the moments you have of being able to just do something and not overthink it, those moments grow, and that’s exciting to me.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:49]:
Yeah. And you learn to give yourself credit.

Amber Petty [00:59:52]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:54]:
Which is. Which is great. It’s kind of. I don’t want to say that’s the antidote to perfectionism, because I don’t think that it is, but it certainly helps. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, this has been great fun and, you know, always a delight to talk to you anyway. But I really hope that, you know, people are as intrigued by all of this as I have been and will come and check you out and maybe they’ll dip their toes into the freelancing waters and see what happens for them.

Amber Petty [01:00:29]:
Yeah, for sure. And, yeah, if you’re interested at all, you can always just sign up for my newsletter. That’s free, and I share pitching opportunities and writing jobs and tips and stuff like that. So if you’re curious, that’s a good way. It’s just free and you just kind of get to see what’s out there a little bit more.

Nancy Norbeck [01:00:45]:
Yep. And we’ll have all the links for you to check out. So thanks so much.

Amber Petty [01:00:51]:
Thank you.

Nancy Norbeck [01:00:54]:
That’s this week’s show. Thanks so much to Amber Petty and to you. Amber’s links are in the show notes. I hope you’ll leave a review for this episode. There is a link in your podcast app and it is super easy and really makes a difference. If you enjoyed our conversation, please do share it with a friend. Thanks so much. If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now, join me at the Spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage.

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:26]:
It’s free and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners. The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe and rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.