Elle Jaye supports powerful and resilient working moms who want to put an end to the power struggles with their child, so they become a strong team instead of adversaries. The working moms realize they are women first, and mothering is another job they do. By disrupting this mindset, the women step into their power and resilience as an extension of their values and intent for their children. Elle joins me to talk about how she discovered her creative side in her 20s, how we normalize and pass on relationship and parenting patterns, how we can see adults as atrophied children rather than seeing children as mini adults, and more.
Episode breakdown:
00:00 Introduction.
04:24 Childhood curiosity suppressed, later recognized as problem-solving and questioning.
08:00 Creativity awakens through coloring and relaxing with children.
12:00 Daughters express creativity differently; family talents traced back generations.
16:26 Watching movies as family sparks deeper curiosity and connection.
20:10 Analyzing shows reveals generational patterns, manipulation, and emotional awareness gaps. 24:39 Parenting styles shaped by media; Cosby Show inspires new possibilities.
28:27 Realizing art and creativity were present through connection and escapism.
32:00 Family meetings on TV offered models for healthy communication.
36:41 Adults repeat childhood patterns unless they intentionally choose to change.
41:00 Children should not be seen as mini adults; generational shifts.
46:00 Letting go of control, discovering healthy ways to parent.
51:00 Play, fun, and creativity help shift negative energy and judgment.
56:00 Awareness of presence, connecting with nature improves perspective and creativity.
Show Links: Elle Jaye
Elle’s Facebook
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Transcript: Elle Jaye
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Elle Jaye supports powerful and resilient working moms who want to put an end to the power struggles with their child so they become a strong team instead of adversaries. The working moms realize they are women first, and mothering is another job they do. By disrupting this mindset, the women step into their power and resilience as an extension of their values and intent for their children.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:41]:
Elle joins me to talk about how she discovered her creative side in her twenties, how we normalize and pass on relationship and parenting patterns, how we can see adults as atrophied children rather than seeing children as mini adults, and more. I think you’ll find a lot of food for thought in my conversation with Elle Jaye. Elle, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Elle Jaye [00:01:05]:
Thank you so much, Nancy. I I really appreciate being here.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:10]:
So I start everybody with the same question. Were you a creative kid, or did you discover your creative side later on?
Elle Jaye [00:01:18]:
I discovered my creative side later on.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:23]:
So what did that look like for you?
Elle Jaye [00:01:27]:
I was an adult because as I grew up, creativity wasn’t, applauded or sought after. It was your brain, logic, science that is where I that’s where I was habituated, conditioned, into thinking and things like that. And we definitely listened to music, watched movies, different things like that. But as far as me being the creative one, I don’t think it would have gone over very well.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:13]:
Were you aware of that as a kid, or did it just seem normal to you?
Elle Jaye [00:02:17]:
It was normal the way that we were habituated, like the science and the thinking and things like that. That was normal.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:26]:
So then what happened when you started to discover that you had a a creative piece of yourself?
Elle Jaye [00:02:33]:
Well, I think that came with having children and being able to think about things in a different way. And then even to say even though we were not you know, I wasn’t artsy or anything like that, and I would tell myself I can’t draw. Like, why would I say that to myself? But, hey. That’s what we say. And then I just I don’t even know. Like, it it’s a wonderful question because you’re making me think right now.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:15]:
If you don’t mind me asking, just because I’m terribly curious. So how old were you when when this happened? Roughly, if that’s easier.
Elle Jaye [00:03:24]:
Yeah. It would have to be a roughly I think I would say it was the late twenties into thirties.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:31]:
Because it seems like that would be quite a shock.
Elle Jaye [00:03:36]:
Well, it wasn’t a tear I don’t Nancy, the thing you get to know about me is, I underestimate a lot of emotions and different things. So I I don’t I hadn’t put much stock into some things. And then, like, some life challenges happened, and then I got really into the emotions, because I was like, what are these? Kinda like creativity. You know? Like, what is this that’s happening? And recognizing I’ve had creativity all along with being able to problem solve
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:24]:
Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:04:24]:
And find different ways to do things. And just the way I would ponder and think about stuff and just try to be curious. The thing with my curiosity, though, is growing up, asking questions was, you know, like treason or something because you were challenging your parent. My I was challenging my parents. That’s how they saw it. But I was really just a curious person and wanted to understand how things worked.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:59]:
That’s so interesting because curiosity is so fundamental to so much science and and logic and and all of that that you would think that that part would have been okay. You would think.
Elle Jaye [00:05:16]:
That’s okay. Phrase, isn’t it? Yeah. So you would think it would, but when you’re dealing with as an as a parent myself now, right, and looking back and putting myself in my parents’ shoes, what my parents decided to do was have a large family. K? My mom had over, eight children. K? So as an adult, if you have that many children coming with their curiosity and you have a busy day and you’re just the one person or you yeah. Sometimes A lot. Find a way to shut questions down.
Nancy Norbeck [00:06:06]:
That’s a lot. Yeah. So it’s not so much I’m anticuriosity as I’m desperate to preserve my sanity.
Elle Jaye [00:06:16]:
Yes. Yeah. I believe that is how I would say that it happened for for my parents.
Nancy Norbeck [00:06:23]:
Yeah. So what happened when you suddenly realized, hey. There is this deeply curious piece of me that has always been interested in problem solving, and and maybe I am interested in trying to draw something or, you know, playing the music instead of just listening to it or or however that came up. What what came along with that for you?
Elle Jaye [00:06:48]:
What came along was the ability to color. Just pulling out a coloring book, matte colors, and just saying, I just wanna escape into creating this picture in a way that works for me. Mhmm. You know? And that’s that’s what I did. That was my way of, I guess, escape. I don’t know. Escape may not be the right word, but relaxing. Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:07:17]:
Something that’s my bliss from the standpoint of, like, the thinking that I would do, the problem solving that I would do, to just being able to just put colors on a page.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. Kinda like I’ve used this half of my brain even though I know that that whole left side, right side thing is not quite so in vogue anymore. But for the sake of argument, I’ve used this half of my brain for years, and now I wanna switch it off a little bit and play with the other side. Because now I realize I have the other side.
Elle Jaye [00:07:55]:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It is a definite thing.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:00]:
So since this happened around the time you had kids, did that turn into something that you did with your kids?
Elle Jaye [00:08:08]:
I did it around them, and the thing that was interesting is both of my children love math, and they are on the creative side. I didn’t that that was foreign to me. Mhmm. And with that being as foreign as it is as it was, it was hard to kinda relate to them because they were doing things that I that was not exactly my strength or my forte. And I was like, well, the best I could do pencil, paper. Here we go. Because one of them loves to build, like, bought, bought the magnets and create she created such lavish structures that stood. And I’m like, you’re getting this thing to stand? And it wasn’t I mean, it was, like, you know, a foot and a half off the ground with these magnets that she was using to build with.
Elle Jaye [00:09:25]:
And I’m just like, oh, this is amazing. And it wasn’t just square. It was a hexa like hexagons. Mhmm. Almost dodecahedrons and everything else. And I’m like, woah. But that’s what she was doing.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:43]:
It’s amazing when you watch kids do things and you’re just going, I didn’t know about that as a kid, and it’s mystifying to me, but also so cool. Like, I’m in awe, and I’m jealous all at the same time.
Elle Jaye [00:09:57]:
Right. And it’s like, you get it from me. You get it from me somewhere. And what I found out was my mother’s dad, He was really good at math. But in being, like, a sharecropper, he didn’t have, like, a formal education. And my uncle was sharing with me how he was able to cut their the house that he built, he was able to cut it in half and move it and put it back together again. And I’m sitting here like, what? And, yeah, that’s what I’m thinking. Yeah.
Elle Jaye [00:10:47]:
And I’m just and he said that, my grandfather didn’t know how to read, but my grandmother did. So she would read what needed to be read, and they worked it together. And they were able to transport their home. Wow. I mean,
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:09]:
I think the cutting it in half part is even more mind blowing to
Elle Jaye [00:11:12]:
me than the picking it up and moving it part. Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:16]:
I’ve heard of that part before. The cutting it in half, though, is a whole other level.
Elle Jaye [00:11:23]:
Yes. And and mind you, I don’t have full context because the time in which this was done, I, of course, I wasn’t living. You know? Right. And, again, they as, you know, sharecroppers and different things like that, there’s so many aspects of that part of their lives that I don’t have context for. But to hear it, it was like, man, I really wish he I would have known him, more, but he passed, I think, when I was, like, eight years old.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:00]:
Wow. Yeah. The questions that you wish you could have asked as an adult that you didn’t know to ask when you were eight. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It’s I’m I’m gonna be thinking about cutting houses in half for a while now.
Elle Jaye [00:12:18]:
Right. Right. Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:20]:
So where did you go from I’m gonna, you know, color for a while?
Elle Jaye [00:12:26]:
Well, from there, I just started going into looking at the different movies that we watched growing up and even some that, were off limits because of the rating. Mhmm. But I would hear my my parents watch them or whatever. And what I did from there was what my dad would do is he would, like, allow us to watch a movie. And then if there was a life lesson, he would pause the movie and give us the life lesson. So I continued that, aspect. And I know it’s that may not be as creative, but to me, it is because not only did I do that with the movie I was watching, I would tie it into other, into other aspects of life to not to be able to dig deeper, go deeper, and have that curiosity to tie it to something else and relate it to something else.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:36]:
That’s so interesting because it you know, I was a an English lit major, and it strikes me as being so similar to what you do in an English lit class. You know, you you take that book and and you’re connecting it to so many other things and kind of sort of pulling it apart and putting it back together again and and seeing what all you can find in it in history and philosophy and in your own life. And so it it strikes me I I’d imagine if you majored in film studies, that’s what you would do there too. So it seems like that’s probably probably a very film studies sort of sort of thing that that you were doing. Did you are there particular connections that you came up with that stick with you?
Elle Jaye [00:14:21]:
A lot of the connections is relational. It’s just how people relate to each other. And, for example, my dad loved Andy Griffith. K. Loved the show. I can always hear the whistling theme song of rejection. Right? So I started watching it, and I’m looking at the show that everybody is applauding. And it’s like, oh, this is wholesome TV.
Elle Jaye [00:14:59]:
No. It’s not. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. No. It’s not. And I know someone would probably wanna cancel me for saying that because it is so much a part of what they had when they were growing up. Because, you know, selections were limited.
Elle Jaye [00:15:22]:
Mhmm. And I honor that, and I respect that. Okay? And I want to be able to say that now that I’m an adult looking back on that funny comedy sitcom, okay, which is what that was, that show rewarded a man who lied and manipulated people Mhmm. And then would say it was for their benefit. And the reason that sticks out for me is because that’s what I was told. We’re doing this for your benefit. But it seemed very it seemed that parents were very manipulative in not like a malicious kind of way, but, like, in the way of like, what I was saying earlier. In order to cut down and save their sanity
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:26]:
Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:16:26]:
They cut off the questions. Right? Mhmm. So and that was for their benefit in what they had the capacity to, to handle at the time. Right? So that’s the same thing that I’m seeing with the Andy Griffith show, is that they were doing that same thing. He was like so for Barney, he was inept, but he was also his cousin.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:01]:
Right.
Elle Jaye [00:17:02]:
And in order for Barney not to know how ignorant, unlearned he was, and he would just let some stuff slide. And fast forward, we’ve got people still doing things like that to this day. And Floyd, the barber, he would say, Andy, I’m glad you’re on my side because I mean, he actually said it in one of the earlier episodes that Andy was so, like, episodes that Andy was so like, he was lying and cunning and different things like that. I’m like, he used the words. So, to describe the sheriff of the town. Wow.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:49]:
It’s been a long time since I’ve watched Andy Griffith, I can tell you. I’m realizing as you’re telling me this.
Elle Jaye [00:17:55]:
And but the and so as I as I watched, mind you, I was watching it during a time where manipulation was prevalent in my life. And I was and because that was a area that I was healing, it was noticeable when it it yes. Whenever it was done, it was noticeable. Mhmm. So I’m sitting here watching this show after my dad passed away. K?
Nancy Norbeck [00:18:35]:
What timing?
Elle Jaye [00:18:37]:
And I’m like, oh, this is why you behave this way because you grew up thinking that it was okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:18:48]:
Yes. Yes. This is this is reminding me of a couple of conversations that I’ve had with my mom in the last couple years and, you know, about that that same kind of generational difference. You know? Like, that her generation was not raised with any real kind of emotional awareness because, you know, I mean, she’s she’s a baby boomer. She’s an early baby boomer. You know? So so back then, you know, it was that whole thing where, good lord, if you talked about an emotion, there might be something wrong with you. You might have to go see somebody about that. And that meant there was something really wrong with you, and so you weren’t gonna talk about that at all, which meant that that entire generation has no vocabulary to talk about how they feel about things.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:46]:
So when those emotions come up and bubble over and something’s wrong, they have no good way to deal with it. So it comes out in ways that are not helpful, that make problems worse unless they’re super lucky and stumble by accident onto a good way of saying something. And it’s not their fault. They don’t know any better. I mean, you can argue that they’ve had however many years to go fix this. But but, fundamentally, they they were not originally taught any better. Right. So so there’s there’s kind of both of those pieces here.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:25]:
And, you know, I mean, I’m Gen x, so I wasn’t really raised a whole lot better. It’s just that my generation figured out, hey. We can go do something about this. You know? And some of us have done that. Some of us haven’t. And then, you know, we hope that with the millennials and the Gen z’s and everything that it’s starting to become more and more normalized. Because when you have the words and the understanding and the awareness to actually have a mature rational conversation about what’s going on, good lord, imagine, it goes better.
Elle Jaye [00:21:00]:
It it goes way better. It goes way better. And it is because at a lot of times, Nancy, what happens is there’s lots of blame, shame, and guilt provoking vocabulary that goes around. Right. Instead of an understanding that this is how this generation was habituated Right. And leave the judgment to the side. And by leaving the judgment to the side, we get to share with them ways of meeting them where they are. Right? Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:21:46]:
The unfortunate thing for me is both my parents are gone. They’re deceased. And I and at the time, there was no meeting them where they were. They created me, and I learned through observation and through their teaching how to be in this world. Right? Mhmm. And then became an adult myself and was stumbling along, trying to figure it out, discovering, and naming things that were not named when I was younger. Because you are correct. When it came to emotions, the what I was habituated to was there’s laughter and happiness, and just being.
Elle Jaye [00:22:41]:
And then there’s anger and sadness, but that was only reserved for the adult.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:47]:
I knew you were gonna say that.
Elle Jaye [00:22:50]:
I knew
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:50]:
you were gonna say that, and I wouldn’t have been surprised if you’d said that it was reserved for your dad.
Elle Jaye [00:22:56]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:56]:
Because I think a lot of the time
Elle Jaye [00:22:58]:
Yeah. My mom could cry, but she couldn’t be angry in front of my dad. She could be angry with us without my dad present, but it would it was those were dad emotions. And crying definitely was off the table when it came to my dad’s. Like, why are you crying?
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:16]:
Yeah. And I’ll bet you, if you went back and watched Andy Griffith, that’s what you would see on there because that’s how it was normalized. Right? That’s it was it was what everybody thought was normal, so it went on to the show. And then it was renormalized through the show. And so everybody grew up and thought, well, this is just how people get along.
Elle Jaye [00:23:34]:
Mhmm. And you can see how the arts and the creative genres can impact a person’s real life. Like, even the books that we read. I love Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys. Mhmm. Ramona, all of those. Babysitter’s Club. I even and then I love, like, I love, love, love, love Wuthering Heights.
Elle Jaye [00:24:10]:
Just love it. And then I do like Shakespeare as well. Kenneth Branagh really I was like, dude, where were you when I was in high school? So because, actually, it was when I was in high school that I, we had an assignment to watch Much Ado About Nothing, and that became my favoritest.
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:39]:
Oh, yeah.
Elle Jaye [00:24:39]:
And it and it was also quite helpful that there were people in it that like Keanu Reeves Uh-huh. Denzel Washington. Who else? Those were the main two that I remember that had, like, notoriety, you know, at the time that that movie came out. So I was like, oh, these people like it? Cool. And and it was an assignment to watch while we were in while I was in high school, and I loved it. Yeah. Loved it. And the way he talk, I I just love it.
Elle Jaye [00:25:14]:
So yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. I’m a huge Shakespeare nerd myself. So though, I have to say, as much as it makes me feel like a heretic, and I still love that version. But if you get the chance to see the much ado with David Tennant and Catherine Tate, I cannot recommend it enough. So just just a little tip for anybody else who hasn’t seen that one. It’s fantastic. The the physical comedy is just unbelievable.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:45]:
So so yeah. But, like, all of that stuff, you know, it’s it’s funny because there’s there’s a show that I have watched on Netflix, and I don’t think it’s on there anymore, that it was a a Hallmark show. So it’s not it’s not, like, great cinema or anything, but it was called The Good Witch. And one of the things that I really liked about it was that it showed a really healthy, respectful adult relationship. It was there was plenty of drama, but it was drama, like, with the nosy mayor in town, you know, or, you know, some other situation with the people who were coming to stay at the B and B that they owned or whatever. It was not interpersonal, we’re fighting all the time kind of stuff. Like, they, you know, they might have a disagreement about something, but they handled it like mature adults. And I thought, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a TV show.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:40]:
Now in my defense, I haven’t watched a whole lot of TV in years and especially network TV, so I can’t speak to what’s been out there. But but I was just like, wow. This is, like, what a relationship really should ideally work like, and it’s not perfect, but it’s getting there. Like like, wow. It can work like this? Mhmm. And and so that was really kind of enlightening and encouraging for me. Like, okay. It doesn’t have to be people, you know, getting upset with each other and not wanting to talk about it and being stubborn, and I’m no.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:19]:
Not I’m gonna pretend everything’s okay. You know, all of the usual things that that build drama in our lives and generally on TV. And I was like, wow. Look at that. People can actually communicate in a way that is sane.
Elle Jaye [00:27:35]:
Right. Yeah. Who knew? Go figure. And and with and with that, I the more I’m sitting here talking to you about this creativity, I think creativity’s bit like, the arts have been in my life longer than what I gave it credit. You know? Because watching movies and TV shows as a family was a connection point Mhmm. To where that was the, that was the way that art was allowed. And then if we had, like, a school project, okay. You know? Okay.
Elle Jaye [00:28:27]:
You know? But it wasn’t like, it wasn’t this it was almost like an understanding that to be artsy, musically inclined kinda thing, was only accepted as an escape, but not as a way to bring money into your home. So I think that would be a way that I can describe how it was, because, again, we watched a lot. And the like, as you were talking about the Good Witch, what came to mind for me was The Cosby Show Mhmm. From the eighties because the conflict wasn’t between the parents. It was between the parents and the children and all of the different situations that arose there. And that was beneficial to me because by seeing a family that looked like mine
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:34]:
Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:29:35]:
Of a successful woman working outside the home because that’s not where I my mom worked inside the home with as many children as we had. And then the dad also working outside the home, but yet he was just down in the basement. So he was more at home than mom. Like, if you really think about it, he was really and truly there closer to home, and able to deal with some of the day to day things than the mom was. And I was like, man, that is something I’d love to be able to have, to be able to work outside the home where both adults’ parents are successful. They have their own lives where they can travel and leave the kids where, you know, where they are kind of thing sometimes. And there’s grandparents that can help take care of them. So I was like, oh, I’d like that.
Elle Jaye [00:30:34]:
That is not what happened in my life, but, it was good to see that vision of something that is possible. And that is the beauty of art. It shows you what’s possible. And even with the drawn art, for somebody, it may look like scribbles. But for someone else, it can evoke calm. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:04]:
You know, when you talk about The Cosby Show, what immediately popped into my head was when there was a conflict between the parents and the kids, they would call a family meeting and have a rational conversation or mostly rational, at least Mhmm. Conversation about it. And I remember watching that going, wow.
Elle Jaye [00:31:24]:
That’s possible? That’s possible?
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:27]:
Really? You could do that? You know? I mean, that whole concept was just just totally mind blowing to me.
Elle Jaye [00:31:36]:
And what made it so mind blowing to you also?
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:41]:
I had never seen anything like that in a family. Never seen anything like that. You know, it was always mom and dad were basically the dictators in the little family fiefdom. And if you screwed up, their their decision was swift, you know, and probably kind of punitive to whatever degree they dictated in that moment based on how angry they were was was necessary. You may or may not have gotten much of a say in your own defense, and you were, you know, banished to your room with or without dinner, with or without whatever privileges they decided you weren’t gonna have for whatever period of time, and you basically went off and, you know, sulked for whatever period of time and, you know, felt the requisite level of shame and embarrassment and all of that. And that was that was the appropriate response to the situation. So the idea that it did not have to be that way Mhmm. Was just like I mean, I’m sure that some of those family meetings still resulted in some guilt and shame and grounding and whatever because it’s been a long time since I’ve seen that show.
Nancy Norbeck [00:33:00]:
But with at least some understanding and some discussion about why that was the decision that was being made and, you know, all of that rather than handed down by Fiat because dad’s angry today.
Elle Jaye [00:33:16]:
Right. Yeah. And as you talk about that, it’s the similar situation, for my experience as well, which is if you made a mistake, you were branded by that mistake, and seen as, like, not trustworthy. There was no, making it up kinda thing, and there had to be some sort sort of show of contrition
Nancy Norbeck [00:33:48]:
Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:33:50]:
And things like that. And, you know, I’m just like, all of that, and then you become an adult, and it can stay with you. And then you could also do the same thing to your children Because it’s all you need. Yeah. Not knowing that, hey. That mess was not healthy. Because I’ve heard so many parents say, look at me. I turned out fine.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:18]:
Oh, man. I have heard that so many times. And I’m like, every time I hear that, I’m like, no. You didn’t. And I know you didn’t because you just said that.
Elle Jaye [00:34:28]:
So much hiding Yeah. Of about, like, all of that. There’s just so much hiding.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:36]:
And the people who say that the most are the ones who were spanked as kids.
Elle Jaye [00:34:41]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:42]:
I was hit, and I’m fine. No. You’re not.
Elle Jaye [00:34:44]:
No. You’re not. There’s some things you haven’t addressed from those consequences. And a lot of people will say, well, the Bible say it. Oh, lord. Spare the rods. Boil the child. K.
Elle Jaye [00:35:05]:
So there is truth to consequences for behaviors. Right? There’s there’s always some sort of consequence. And when you balance that scripture with another scripture that tells, people tells parents not to provoke your child.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:39]:
See, they they don’t wanna remember that one.
Elle Jaye [00:35:41]:
No. They don’t. They don’t. And, but the wonderful thing is my mother, what we would do is we would have what we would call prayer every night when my dad wasn’t home. And she would read that scripture that said it because it starts, children, obey your parents in the Lord because this is right. You know? It’s the first commandment with promise. And then it would then it went into parents, don’t provoke your children to rat. And she would read it all.
Elle Jaye [00:36:18]:
And I now that I’m an adult, I’m like, thank you. Because she didn’t cherry pick.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:24]:
Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:36:25]:
She didn’t cherry pick for her own benefit. You know? And I I’m just not a fan when people misuse scripture, literature out of context. Yeah. In order to make a point, in a way that is damaging to another human, and taking away their free will, taking away their identity. That’s like, no. That’s the last thing you wanna do to a person. And yeah. So the whole punishment punitive, No.
Elle Jaye [00:37:15]:
That’s just not how we we get to do that. We can shift, and we can change.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:19]:
Yeah. There are there are so many better ways to do things. And, you know, I think, oh, now I’m trying to remember the quote. You know, there there’s the idea that, I’m gonna screw this up. You know, there there are some people who who view children as mini adults, which isn’t really accurate as we know. Right? There’s, like, there’s so much going on inside that little brain, and it’s Mhmm. Pulling in so much information. It’s it’s like a sponge that is it’s absorbing everything while it’s building itself.
Elle Jaye [00:38:07]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:07]:
So you gotta, you know, kind of be careful what all you put in there, whether it’s capable of handling it while it’s building itself. Right? So so the idea that children are just mini adults and should be treated like adults is not correct. But there is, there’s a there’s a guy named Keith Johnstone who was a a theater kind of, what’s the right word for him? He wrote a book in the seventies called Impro that was sort of like the the bible of improv. Mhmm. And a lot of it, he talks about unlearning all of the things that you’ve been taught because they keep you from doing improv well. So it’s a great book on creativity. But but he talks about how instead of thinking that, you know, children are are many adults, that adults are atrophied children. And and so, you know, we’ve we’ve lost the abilities that we were born with because we’ve been trained and taught out of them.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:14]:
And so, like, that’s why you have to you know, when you go to an improv class, you have to learn to get out of your own way in order to improv well, to improvise well. Mhmm. And and so it’s like we we think of all of these things in in this backwards way.
Elle Jaye [00:39:34]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:35]:
And then, you know, we expect kids to be more mature than they are, and we think that we’re, you know, more mature than, I think, a lot of times we actually are. You know, we come up with these these combinations whereas, like, you know, if a kid screws up, they’re capable of understanding that they screwed up if you are capable of explaining it to them in terms that they understand. Mhmm. You know? Like, it’s if you if you treat a kid like they should know better when they have no way to know better, you’re gonna consistently be disappointed. But if you remember that a kid is not actually a mini adult, but that you can get down on their level and that actually, you were once a kid too, and you’re actually an atrophied child yourself, then, you know, again, it’s it’s that that vocabulary and the, you know, the communication level. I’ve I’ve seen my brother and my sister-in-law do this with my nephews when they were smaller, and I remember just watching them. You know? Like, the kid’s three, and you’re out pruning the trees, and they pick up the pruning shears. And, you know, obviously, you don’t want the three year old to have the pruning shears for reasons you don’t need to explain to yourself.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:56]:
But when you take the pruning shears from the three year old and they start to bawl their brains out, you need to explain it to the three year old. And it doesn’t have to be complicated. Right? It can just be, I know I’m sorry you’re upset, but these are really, really dangerous, and I need to make sure you don’t hurt yourself. It will get you something else that you can play with. And when you’re old enough, you can use the pruning shears. You know? It doesn’t have to be a dissertation because the kid’s three, But you can explain it in terms that they can understand so that it’s not just you took the thing from me and maybe I was bad, and now I’m very upset.
Elle Jaye [00:41:39]:
Right. And I like that example, because when when we think back to growing up with the parents that we were blessed to have, They that, again, that generation, has a tendency to talk at you and say, you know better what’s wrong with you. Mhmm. I told you already, and and why don’t you remember you don’t have this and you don’t have that. I mean, it was like, no wonder so many people have a hard time accomplishing things because the people who brought them in this world spoke down so negatively to them and created wounds, which is trauma, which created wounds in these children who became the atrophied adults, who repeated patterns because that’s what they saw. And they have you know, they continue that pattern from generation to generation unless somebody says, nope. I’m done. And I’m gonna do the work to stop thinking that way, being that way, and do something different with with my my own children or my own family because I’m tired of that.
Elle Jaye [00:43:11]:
And that is actually something that that I myself have done. And it’s a it’s a definite challenge to do something like that. And so I love how you said, Keith Johnstone? Yep. Okay. I actually wrote his name down because I want to find that quote about the atrophy adults because my children this is hilarious. This is hilarious. My child is talking to me about what they have experienced in seeing between me and their dad. And they said, y’all need to stop what behaving like children.
Elle Jaye [00:44:12]:
And it’s like, do you not even understand that you just insulted yourself with that statement. But at the same time, Keith Johnstone is correct. Adults are atrophy children. Yeah. And I was when I was a child, I was like, man, I’m I I almost had, like, a Peter Pan syndrome. I’m not gonna grow up. I’m gonna always remember what it’s like to be a child because I don’t want my children to I don’t wanna be so disconnected from being a child that I treat my children the way my parents treated me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:55]:
Yeah. That’s, like, such a teenage thing. Right?
Elle Jaye [00:44:58]:
Yeah. I think I was probably younger than that. And it with that thinking, the issue is I don’t have context about what it means to be an adult
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:12]:
Right. Right.
Elle Jaye [00:45:13]:
When I make that statement. And then when you become an adult, there’s a reason why some of those childish ways have to be put to the side. One, your brain is actually developing into into some higher functioning. But and the responsibilities and the ability to manage and have the capacity to to deal with challenges and have fun. A lot of people are like, I don’t have mental capacity for both of these things. Mhmm. So which one goes to the wayside? The fun. Uh-huh.
Elle Jaye [00:45:58]:
Because we’ve got to be able to protect ourselves financially, emotionally, socially. Then we’re bringing additional lives into this world, and that’s another layer of responsibility. And you think control, but you don’t control those little be those living beings that come out of your body. You’re in charge of them, but you don’t control them. And for somebody to tell me that there was a difference, and thank goodness for ChattGPT, I I did even further diving into that and was like, oh, these dots are connecting, for because I was a controller. I wanted to control my children because that’s what was done to me. Mhmm. You know? And I feel like I’m, like, jumping around here in this conversation, but it all ties together in that as adults, we because of the way we were raised as children, that impacts how we become adults.
Elle Jaye [00:47:04]:
Yes. And we’re like, okay. Well, we see our parents aren’t having fun. Mhmm. I guess that’s what I can do when I become an adult. I I I can’t have fun anymore, which is why there’s a Peter Pan. Yeah. Like, I don’t wanna grow up.
Elle Jaye [00:47:26]:
I don’t want to be this adult who cannot play, who cannot laugh Mhmm. And not just have fun because there’s so much going on.
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:38]:
Yeah.
Elle Jaye [00:47:38]:
And I was, I was thinking I watched Hook, you know, the Dustin Hoffman, Robin Williams first. Okay? And I was thinking about it the other day where, Pan, the adult Pan, was fighting sword fighting with captain Hook. And he said, I I remember you being a lot taller than this. And then captain Hook was like, to a 10 year old, I’m huge. Yeah. So it really is about perspectives.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:19]:
Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:48:20]:
So when we grow up and we revisit a thing that we like, Peter Pan fought Hook when he was a child. Yeah. Now fast forward, he’s an adult and captain Hook’s an adult, and he’s fighting him. And he’s like in his mind, he’s like, you were so much bigger. And which means he kept him big in his head. Mhmm. Even though he was also now big, he kept captain Hook at probably that same proportion in his mind, to where it robbed Pan of recognizing his power and learning from what how he experienced captain Hook. And and and doing that, it robbed him of his resilience and his power.
Elle Jaye [00:49:14]:
But once you have you’re able to revisit and fight and deal with a thing, then you are able to say, hey. It’s not as bad as what I think or what I thought.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:31]:
And
Elle Jaye [00:49:34]:
that’s where creativity helps adults. Yeah. Because it helps you be able to put things into a perspective That you didn’t think was there before.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:55]:
Mhmm. And
Elle Jaye [00:50:03]:
example from my own life. My daughters were going at it this past weekend, and I’m like, oh my gosh. This sounds like who is that in the kitchen? Is that me? It’s like, wait a minute. I’m upstairs. And so I was like, oh, shit. I taught like, my children learned that behavior from me. And so I got to learn, like, the result, the outcome of my way of being and how they picked it up. And so I was able to come downstairs and calmly, you know, not raise my voice to match theirs because then they’ll be like, oh, well, you’re still the same yelling person, but I didn’t.
Elle Jaye [00:50:59]:
And I was like, hey. Let’s leave this space and go to a different space and have a conversation and things like that. And then in order for them to connect the dots to what I was talking about, we watched this show, Modern Family. Mhmm. And in that show, one of the one of the mothers, she’s a type a personality, and her husband is not. K? He’s more, I don’t know what the opposite of that is. But, anyway, so anytime he’s telling a story and he’s being long winded, she’ll go bloop bloop in order to make him fast forward and get to the point. Yeah.
Elle Jaye [00:51:45]:
Ain’t that rude? That’s like Uh-huh. Well, you know, they have children. And so her oldest daughter, when she started dating, got got to that age to date a guy, her the guy that she was dating was taking a long time, and she was like, bloop bloop. And I was like, oh my god. So and I’m like, ladies, we’ve seen this show. That lets you know that it’s it’s so prevalent that they put it in a show that children pick up what their parents do. Mhmm. Knowingly or unknowingly, it happens.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:22]:
Yeah.
Elle Jaye [00:52:25]:
So I said and I feel like I’m not gonna feel guilty or anything like that for what’s happened. I’m just pointing it out to you and and letting you know, like, hey. I’m not the same person. I am actually shifting the energy in this house so that you guys will have a different example to to pull from to where you can say, not only did can my mother shift how she is showing up in the world, I can too. And then they can build that muscle at an earlier age. Yeah. That is what we get to do to where they don’t have to be the Peter Pan fighting the adult captain hook.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:14]:
Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:53:14]:
They can have the tools and resources to where they’re good. They don’t have to wait till adulthood to then realize, hey. You know, you were much bigger. I remember you being bigger. When they get to adulthood, they get to say, no. Even though you’re an adult, I’m an adult. We’re I’m, you know, I can fight you, and they can have that power, have that resilience real time.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:45]:
Yeah. And sometimes that awareness is all it takes. You pointing it out may have been enough to just kind of install the stop sign in their heads. But there’s there’s another thing that that you mentioned in in there that that I thought was so interesting because it’s that that perception that when you’re overloaded and you have all of these things to worry about, that the fun has to go away.
Elle Jaye [00:54:09]:
It doesn’t have to, but we choose for it to
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:12]:
choose to it because we think that it’s not important. Yeah. But but, boy, I’ll tell you, when we when we lose the fun, because it’s not it’s not just the fun. It’s the play, and the play is what gives us the the resilience and and and the the ability to keep ourselves from landing in that judgmental perfect space all the time.
Elle Jaye [00:54:40]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:40]:
And if that goes away, then it’s much more likely that we’re gonna be more harsh with ourselves, which means we’re gonna be more harsh with everybody else because we’re gonna suddenly be seeing all the flaws and all of the things that aren’t perfect, and and that always comes with more judgment. And when we judge ourselves more harshly, we judge everybody else more harshly too. So, you know, the idea that fun and play are optional is not actually grounded in reality. It’s grounded in a false perception.
Elle Jaye [00:55:14]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:15]:
It’s it’s literally the basis of the Make Bad Art course that I teach, and and that is, like, the whole the biggest thing that comes out of it is a better relationship with yourself because your inner critic learns how to shut up and let you go do what you wanna do, and your relationships improve with yourself, with other people. And you just start having more fun as a matter of course Right. Because you’re not being so hard on yourself all the time. So your, you know, your relationships with your kids are you’re just much more easygoing. You can listen better. It just—it’s a laundry list. It’s a great laundry list, but it just it makes everything better. So if you think that you have to let the fun and the play out of your life because all of these other things are more important, I really encourage you to consider the possibility that the fun and the play make all of those other things easier to handle.
Elle Jaye [00:56:15]:
They I amen, sister. Like, I’m over here just, like, about to bust. Because when, like, I love the connect like, connecting the dots was also one of my favorite things to do, in the the little books that we would get when we were like, the highlights and all of that. I loved connect the dots and find the, find the object in those pictures. So when you were talking about play and the building of resilience and things like that, it made me think of comedy because comedians take some serious heavy shit and make you laugh. Yes. Okay? And the and by taking the the pain, those heavy emotions, it’s like it lifts it off, and it’s like it’s a universal theme that people can just laugh at. Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:57:30]:
And then when you’re laughing at it, you’re, like, shaking Yes. All of the tension out of your body. And as you’re shaking that tension out of your body, then your brain actually becomes clearer.
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:46]:
Mhmm.
Elle Jaye [00:57:47]:
And then with your brain becoming clearer, that’s where the possibilities exist because you’ve released energy that out of your body that does not help you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:02]:
Yeah.
Elle Jaye [00:58:03]:
And, right right along so that energy is like the judgment that you were talking about, that inner critic of self and then others. And with play, it’s indirect lesson building.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:19]:
Yes.
Elle Jaye [00:58:20]:
Because you can sit down, color, watch a show, knit, play a board game, all of those things in the name of fun. Play basketball outside. Go skating. And every single one of those things has a lesson in you. Mhmm. And but you’re having fun while you do it. And, for example, there was one day I was like, oh, I need to get outside and walk more. So I’m going for a walk, and then I’m noticing that I’m looking down at the sidewalk.
Elle Jaye [00:59:11]:
And then I was like, wait a minute. This is a beautiful day. The sun is out. There’re wispy clouds. There’s birds in the sky. Why am I looking down Mhmm. Limiting myself when I can look up and be able to see a vast expanse of trees and birds and nature around me and a sky that goes up higher than my head rather than looking down and being so stuck in what’s immediate. So that was a lesson in so many things.
Elle Jaye [01:00:06]:
But for me, it’s like, how am I present to the possibilities, which is looking up at the sky and seeing everything that’s there? Or am I stuck and limiting myself by just looking at a ground that goes for a distance and has sharps, has turns and ups and downs. Whereas if I were to look up in the sky, I can see further Mhmm. And think so much better Yeah. And see all the variety.
Nancy Norbeck [01:00:49]:
It’s amazing how we do that, and we don’t even realize it most of the time.
Elle Jaye [01:00:53]:
No. But just getting out of the four walls because, you know, in working from home and things like that, you can you feel stuck. Mhmm. You know? And then you’re just like, wait a minute. I was habituated to being inside because of a pandemic. Now I can go outside, but I’m not going outside, but I really want to go outside. And that’s how easily we can be conditioned to where we’re like, oh, wait a minute. What how long have I been here? Because it became normal.
Elle Jaye [01:01:30]:
Yes. It became normal. And so we get to force ourselves out.
Nancy Norbeck [01:01:37]:
Yes. We do. Yes. We do.
Elle Jaye [01:01:41]:
Mhmm. So, I mean, this has just been, like, so much fun, Nancy, and I don’t want it to end. I know.
Nancy Norbeck [01:01:51]:
I was just thinking this is probably a good place to stop, and yet, I feel like we could keep going for a while. But but we are about in an hour, so it probably is the right place to call it done.
Elle Jaye [01:02:03]:
Yes. So and as we call it done, what I just thank you for this possibility, this conversation to explore the possibility through creativity. Because in starting with that question, I had a perception of how creativity was in my life, and was like, oh, my dad is just so strict. But he put art in a particular place. Right? Because as an African American male, he wanted to set his children up for success. Mhmm. And what he knew was you’ve got to have one of those degrees web. And for him, it was like, you can be a doctor or a lawyer because those are the positions that get respect.
Elle Jaye [01:02:59]:
Yeah. And I, you know, I see his heart in what he was doing, and his intent. It didn’t land the way he he meant it to.
Nancy Norbeck [01:03:16]:
Yeah.
Elle Jaye [01:03:17]:
And but I get to take the lessons that did land Yes. And learn from the ones that didn’t and be able to continue to escape into my coloring book, escape into, movies, and find the lessons that he taught me how to find in things in an indirect and playful way. And he was a funny man. You know? He he he had a sense of humor, as well. So and I love comedy. I love just being able to think, and I thank both of my parents for that. And I thank my mom for me being able to use and use and recognize the Bible as a sacred text yet also a book that has lessons in it.
Nancy Norbeck [01:04:17]:
Well and that’s a great legacy from both of them. And I really appreciate you coming and sharing it with us today. There’s so much rich stuff in this conversation, and I hope people will really take a lot from it.
Elle Jaye [01:04:29]:
Thank you, Nancy.
Nancy Norbeck [01:04:31]:
That’s our show for this week. Thanks so much to Elle Jaye and to you. Elle’s links are in the show notes. I hope you’ll leave a review for this episode. There’s a link in your podcast app, and it is super easy and really makes a difference. If you enjoyed our conversation, please do share it with a friend. Thanks so much. If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now, join me at the spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage.
Nancy Norbeck [01:05:03]:
It’s free, and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners. The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there, and see you Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.
