If you’ve ever felt frustrated, angry, or deeply misunderstood during a conversation, the culprit might be a single word you didn’t know was dangerous.
In this episode, I’m talking with equity strategist Danielle Marshall about the power of curiosity to bridge divides and change culture. Danielle shares why asking “What else might be true?” is her most powerful tool for connection and why she decided to learn a brand new skill every year once she turned 40.
Whether you’re trying to navigate a difficult workplace culture or just want to have better conversations with your kids, this episode is a permission slip to put down the judgment and pick up curiosity instead.
If you’re ready to stop performing and start feeling human again, I invite you to join me for our free Creativity Circle.
Episode breakdown:
00:00 Introduction
04:02 Embracing curiosity, asking questions, and building strong connections.
08:14 Making networking meaningful by asking genuine, human-centered questions.
12:20 Being curious instead of judgmental leads to better conversations.
16:13 Dangers of relying solely on AI for answers.
20:14 Approaching organizational culture change through curiosity and pain points.
24:31 Challenges in shifting to a true feedback culture.
28:23 Coaching empowers ownership by guiding with questions, not answers.
32:19 Learning to handle feedback thoughtfully and with discernment.
36:18 Curiosity is like a muscle, build it intentionally over time.
40:09 Start with simple curiosity, apply process to bigger challenges.
44:09 Questions can reveal disconnects between leadership and frontline experience.
Show Links: Danielle Marshall
Danielle’s website
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Transcript: Danielle Marshall
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Danielle Marshall is an equity strategist and executive coach committed to helping individuals and organizations bridge cultural divides with curiosity, empathy, and intention. She partners with leaders to cultivate inclusive workplaces, deepen cross cultural understanding, and develop strategies that drive both equity and impact. She’s also the host of Unpacked Cultural Chronicles, a podcast where she explores cultural differences, shared values, and the power of curiosity in navigating unfamiliar spaces. Danielle talks with me about the importance of curiosity rather than judgment, why asking questions beats giving someone the answer, why we should all be learning how to take feedback well, preferably from a young age, the questions she considers most dangerous, and more.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:07]:
Here’s my conversation with Danielle Marshall. Danielle, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Danielle Marshall [00:01:14]:
Thank you, Nancy. It is a pleasure to be here today.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:17]:
So I start everyone with the same question. Were you a creative kid, or did you discover your creative side later on?
Danielle Marshall [00:01:23]:
Oh, boy. That that feels like a big question. I I was somewhat creative, though I probably wouldn’t have labeled it creative at that time. I was someone who really enjoyed smaller craft projects. Like, I was that kid that was, like, weaving pot holders and, you know, just doing things of that nature. But the other thing that really stood out is I’ve always been a storyteller, so I think that’s where my creativity really got its start.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:50]:
Undoubtedly. I think I think most of us are storytellers whether we recognize it or not. But when we do recognize it, I think that’s a whole separate level.
Danielle Marshall [00:02:02]:
I a 100% agree with that. It’s I think now the joy is understanding how we can use stories to drive different outcomes. Like, as a child, I just told it because it was fun. Right? I and I suppose that is the outcome. I was enjoying myself. But now as an adult, I’m realizing narratives really can change and shape the world. They do every day.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. Amen to that. So when did, you know, did your creativity become more of a more of a bigger part of your life or start to point you in a certain direction?
Danielle Marshall [00:02:42]:
Oh, you know, it’s hard to, like, pinpoint a particular place, but I’m gonna almost say as an adult. I think I’ve always been creative whether it was working as a young person, or in school. But when I turned 40, I started to go on this quest of there has to be more. Right? Like, I hit mid midlife, and I’m like, there has to be more out there. So I started teaching myself a new skill or something every year, and I think that’s where creativity really took a different sort of turn for me because now I’m diving in from everything from, like, I learned sort of learned to play the guitar, not well. I I learned to spin yarn from fleece. I’ve built AI, chat bots and GPTs, and so it really has no bounds in terms of what I want to learn. It’s just really focusing on something year to year.
Danielle Marshall [00:03:35]:
And quite frankly, like, it’s a lot of fun and I’m always walking with with the new skill.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:41]:
I mean, that’s the best of both worlds. Right?
Danielle Marshall [00:03:45]:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:47]:
And if I am correctly recalling, you decided to do this a different thing every year once you turned 40?
Danielle Marshall [00:03:54]:
I did. Yeah. So every year, I pick something new. Sometimes they were things that I kind of had been curious about for a while and I really wanted to lean into. And other times, like, I’ll use AI as an example. Like, that kinda got thrust onto our laps. We didn’t know it was coming, but once it was here, I was like, why not? Let me learn.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. So I love that there is a we’ll call it a piece of wall art. I was gonna say sign, but that doesn’t sound fancy enough behind you that says stay curious. Yeah. And I’m I’m wondering how, you know, how how has curiosity been part of your path?
Danielle Marshall [00:04:35]:
Okay. So I probably was that kid. Everybody hated. Right? Like, I asked my mother a thousand questions every day and the whenever she answered me, it was always, but why, mommy? Why? And so I think that thread of curiosity has been present, all my life, but now in particular, both through the work that I do and also just seeing sort of the state of the world, I really want to lean more into curiosity. I feel like we’re surrounded so often by assumptions, and we don’t really know the answer. So I’m like, how do we get closer to the truth? And I think a lot of that is just through asking those questions. But the other really amazing thing that has happened for me is that I’ve been able to make some of the strongest connections of my life because I’m just willing to sit down and talk to people and be curious about their background and their upbringing, all these wonderful things. So before you know it, I’m like deep down the rabbit hole because I’m like, oh, wow.
Danielle Marshall [00:05:32]:
I didn’t even know that was possible or that was a thing. And so now, you know, I’m just totally enmeshed in it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:39]:
I I hear you. One of the side effects of doing this podcast is that I often have to remind myself that that random stranger that I’m talking to did not actually ask to be interviewed. Like, I wanna know all the things.
Danielle Marshall [00:05:56]:
I’m laughing because hosting my own podcast, very true. You know, when I’m at the grocery store or at the bank, I I feel like I’ve turned into my grandfather who could have a conversation with anyone anytime, and now I’m that person where I’m like, so tell me a little bit about the outfit you put together today. And people are just but they’re they’re so pleased to actually join you in conversation. It’s amazing.
Nancy Norbeck [00:06:16]:
Yeah. You know, I I remember being told, I don’t know, I wanna say as a kid, and it was probably a little later than that, that most people love to talk about themselves and that you can never go wrong, especially when you’re meeting someone new, that it’s, like, such a great way to make a good impression. Yeah. So when I do find myself in those moments where I’m like, this person did not agree to have you interrogate them, I also usually fall back on that. It’s like, well, they seem to be having a good time. So, you know, they’re they’re talking about themselves and most people love that. So
Danielle Marshall [00:06:52]:
Yeah. A 100%. You know, as you say that, what it reminds me of also is when I I remember being in my early twenties, and I hated networking. And I had a job at the time where I was very much external facing in our organization. My job was to go to conferences. It was to to talk to people. And I’m like, you mean all of them? I have to talk to all of these people? And it was really difficult for me until I started embracing more of that curiosity because I thought you know, particularly as a 20 let’s just say 22, 23 year old, like, I’m like, I don’t really know anything about the world. Who are these people? Who am I to, like, have conversations with them? But when I turned it around and started asking them about themselves, what are you excited about? Like, what keeps you up at night? All of the questions, we would be in some very deep and meaningful conversations after a while, and I think it shifted how I thought about this idea of networking.
Danielle Marshall [00:07:46]:
So it it moved away from sort of the the sleazy car salesman kind of pitch that people give more into, like, just tell me about who you are. Like, I’m interested in you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:56]:
Yeah. And and that’s so much more useful too that, you know, what do you do is just such an awful and reductive question that never tells you anything really valuable about someone. It’s just that that cultural script that this is what you’re supposed to ask somebody. But when you say, like, you know, like you were saying, what what gets you excited? What keeps you up at night? Then you’re really gonna learn something about somebody and you have a greater chance of building a connection with them because odds are good. Some of the same stuff keeps you up at night or, you know, you can relate to that interest that they’re excited about or, or whatever.
Danielle Marshall [00:08:37]:
Mhmm. And and I think you just have more fun. Right? You lean into the humanness of the moment Yeah. Rather than the script.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:45]:
Yeah. The script is pretty boring.
Danielle Marshall [00:08:48]:
Absolutely.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:50]:
And to your point, I think that’s why a lot of people hate networking. Like, oh, I have to go and talk to all these people about what they do and pretend to be interested and what why not just make it interesting in the first place?
Danielle Marshall [00:09:02]:
Yeah. And and kind of, like, just follow the this thread wherever it goes. Right? Like, that’s the thing. I I always laugh and, I got accused of this as a a child, and now my daughter is the same person apparently. It’s like she’ll start off talking, and she’s talking about one thing, and it could be the dog. And then all of a sudden, we’re like, well, what’s for lunch? And did you go to this new restaurant? And, like, we’re now she’s talking about where she wants to travel next. So I’m like, how did we get here? But it is the beauty of just allowing conversation to be fluid.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:33]:
Yes. And of being curious about what’s going on with her in that moment.
Danielle Marshall [00:09:38]:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:40]:
And and I know, you know, you’ve got a motto is not the right word, but principle since since that is one of your words about being curious rather than judgmental. And I smiled when I read that because I’m sure I know I am nowhere near alone as someone for whom that brings to mind the Walt Whitman quote that that famous scene from Ted Lasso made so famous, be curious, not judgmental. Mhmm. And so I’m wondering how that how that works for you in in everything that you do.
Danielle Marshall [00:10:22]:
Yeah. So, because listeners do not know me just yet, I am an executive coach. And so part of my curiosity has emerged in my career path right now. I ask questions for a living, literally. But I think about this so much more expansively than just work. Instead of, you know, jumping to because, again, it could be my daughter I’m talking to. Instead of just saying, like, well, why did that happen at school? Why did you choose to do that particular behavior? Which is a question, but it is very much an accusatory type of question one might ask. You know, I’m just saying, like, hey.
Danielle Marshall [00:10:56]:
You know, tell me a little bit more about your thought process. What led you to make this particular decision? And so I use that with her. And I think sometimes with kids, it might feel a little bit easier than when we’re talking to adults because in our minds, it’s like, well, you’re an adult. You should know better. And so, therefore, instead of being curious about it, we sort of lean into this space where it’s like, because I know you know better already, why did you do that? And, you know, it and and so, like, that changes the nature of a conversation. And the thing that I have been training myself to do, and I will be honest, I do not get this correct all the time, but my favorite question is what else might be true?
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:38]:
Mhmm.
Danielle Marshall [00:11:39]:
Because when you ask that one question, if you can’t remember anything else, like, what else might be true, it stops you from leaning into the assumption in that moment because there have to be other alternatives that could equally be true and multiple things can be true at one time.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:55]:
Absolutely. And as you’re talking, I am flashing back to I don’t wanna even try to count how many times as a child I was asked that, you know, you know better, why did you do this? And not really given an opportunity to explain when the context was pretty important. So, you know, I think the negative effects that I remember, you know, being frustrated, being angry, and feeling deeply misunderstood and wondering if I could even trust the people who were supposedly asking me to explain myself, but not allowing me to explain myself. It was pretty deep stuff.
Danielle Marshall [00:12:39]:
Mhmm. And just think about, right, your example from being a a child, and I was very much that same child because we were told, like, children stay in in a child’s place. But think about how that translates to your life as you move through adulthood. You know? We send our kids off to college at 18. Are they supposed to just be spoon fed information? And even earlier than college, do we just want them spoon fed, or do we want them asking questions, like, having some kind of inquiry, is this true? Do I believe it? What else might exist out there on this topic? Versus having people just be like, well, you know what? It’s I’m gonna get penalized if I ask a question in this moment. And then the flip side is I see that happening in adulthood also with so many of the organizations that I work with where people are like, well, the boss said it has to be this way. Therefore, like, that’s that’s it. The buck stops here.
Danielle Marshall [00:13:33]:
And I’m like, but you don’t necessarily have to stop the question, but do you have the courage to ask the question? Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:41]:
Yeah. Asking the question is courageous. That’s such a fabulous point.
Danielle Marshall [00:13:46]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:47]:
Because if you ask the question, and this certainly does not always happen, you need to be prepared to hear the answer.
Danielle Marshall [00:13:55]:
Yes. Yes. And so I I guess we’re we’re working on two different things. Right? It’s the nature of being curious as an individual, but it’s also having the maturity and the stability to be able to accept the answer once you do hear it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. That I think is the rough part for a lot of people.
Danielle Marshall [00:14:17]:
Yes. I mean, we see that all throughout the world now. It’s just like, well, unless you’re gonna give me the answer I particularly want, I’m shutting it down.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:25]:
Yes. Yes. And even, you know, I used to teach and we had so many conversations around the faculty lunch table, and this was twenty years ago, about kids who just wanted to know what the answer was for the test. And this was at a private school where we did not have anywhere near as much standardized testing, but they still just wanted the answer for the test. They didn’t care how or why it was the answer. So we had so many, so many conversations about the diminishing intellectual curiosity that we saw. And I’m sure now that we live in the world of ChattGPT that it’s even worse because, you know, kids just say, oh, I can go look it up. And we just hope that they get the right answer.
Danielle Marshall [00:15:13]:
And that’s dangerous because we already know that, you know, AI is not perfect. It is fed and trained off of people who are also imperfect
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:22]:
Right.
Danielle Marshall [00:15:23]:
And often often hallucinates as well. And so from that standpoint and I say this as someone who actively embraces AI, but what I would say, especially to the folks that are like, you know, it’s gonna take all of our jobs. I’m like, wait again. What else might be true? I don’t think it’s gonna take everything away from us, but we do have to get better at discernment about the information that it gives us. And on another level, you also need to know what it is that you’re attempting to put in because I need to be able to know at first glance, is this accurate or not? You know, if you’re like, Abraham Lincoln is the first president of this country, and I’m like, oh, well, Chet GPT said so, therefore, it’s true, then clearly, I don’t know what I’m talking about. Right? So I I think it’s being able to ask that those questions, do deeper research, ask who’s been training different things. You know, like, if if I’m thinking about this, are is information coming in from one particular source and, like, can is that a valid source?
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:20]:
Yeah. And and just with that example, I suppose this is me showing my nerdy side. You know, there was a a book ten, twenty years ago, Abraham Lincoln Vampire Slayer.
Danielle Marshall [00:16:32]:
Okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:33]:
And I remember the diary. Yeah. I’ve never read it, but you know, considering the way that all of these models have been fed all of these books, I’m sure that book is in there. So how likely are you to get an answer about Abraham Lincoln’s vampire slaying activities? I don’t know, but I can
Danielle Marshall [00:16:56]:
read it. I’m gonna query it now.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:57]:
I know. Me too. I can completely see some poor middle or high school kid who doesn’t know any better getting something like that back, including it in their history project and wondering why the teacher’s not happy.
Danielle Marshall [00:17:15]:
Yeah. Absolutely. That’s hilarious though. But I am gonna look that up when we’re done.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:21]:
Like, does it know that that was a work of fiction, and therefore, I I don’t know. Some of the things I’ve seen it churn out Yeah. Could go either way.
Danielle Marshall [00:17:32]:
You know, nine 99% of what you find on the Internet’s accurate. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:37]:
Oh, if only.
Danielle Marshall [00:17:39]:
Let me not even say please don’t use that as a sound bite.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:45]:
That one definitely needs context. Right?
Danielle Marshall [00:17:47]:
Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:50]:
Well, I’m fascinated by the fact that you work to help organizations change their cultures. Because I think that culture is so important in a workplace in ways that a lot of people don’t understand or take for granted, including the people in charge. So I’m, I’m imagining that it must be a bit of a challenge though you’re probably not storming in and saying, you know, you have to change your culture. I mean, obviously, these people are hiring you, but, you know, how hard is it to get those folks to be curious and willing to hear the answers about their own workplaces?
Danielle Marshall [00:18:38]:
Great question. I think every organization I work with is different. So to your point, they are in fact hiring me to come in and work on something related to culture change. And so a lot of this starts with me, talking to the leadership team because, one, first, I wanna make sure that they are bought in. If they are not bought in, this is not gonna happen. But from there, part of the conversation is, you know, why did you choose choose to engage me? What is it that you would like to see? But, also, what are you noticing about the organization? Right? Like, that that I think is really important, but I don’t just stop with the leadership team. I wanna talk to multiple levels within the organization. If it’s a nonprofit, I’m also gonna talk to the board of directors as well because everyone has a different lens on what’s actually happening.
Danielle Marshall [00:19:26]:
Mhmm. And so from there, one of the things that I have found particularly useful in trying to move people forward with culture work is to learn a little bit more about what their pain points are. Because sometimes people don’t necessarily want to change, But if they are to stop and really think about something that’s slowing them down, it’s, like, making them less effective at their job, less impact in the community. That’s something that they do wanna address. So, like, if we can figure out what those common themes are that you want to see change. Right? If we’re not being respectful to one another in the office and it’s causing retention issues and people are leaving, that is a problem, right, both for the leadership team but also for staff because now I might have two and three jobs because these folks have left. Right? So identifying the pain point opens the conversation up. So how do you see this? How does the next person see it? What do we want to collectively do about this? So that curiosity isn’t just driven by me, but it becomes sort of a cocreative process.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:31]:
Is it difficult to get people to buy into being curious on that level?
Danielle Marshall [00:20:37]:
I I think it depends on what condition the organization was in when I arrived. Right? Some organizations, I think they have a pretty strong feedback culture to begin with even if they’re not necessarily getting certain elements right. They are open to talking to one another, and doing those deep dives. And then there are others where they felt like so similar to your story as a child where they’ve asked questions in the past, they’ve gotten penalized.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:00]:
Mhmm.
Danielle Marshall [00:21:00]:
And so I find, generally, with those groups, it is a lot harder because can I trust you? And even if they trust Danielle as the individual, can I trust my boss with the information you’re going to give them? And so I think people are looking at it from a an you know, a number of different perspectives. But one thing that I absolutely do with every group is that we set up group agreements in the very beginning of our meetings together, whether it’s a one day type of retreat or it’s an ongoing engagement. And a group agreement is simply a set of practices that they want to uphold in terms of how they’re going to be in community with one another. So if it is something like, you know, we want to be respectful of all the voices in this room, we want to make sure that we are keeping confidential information confidential. They can name out whatever agreements they want. And I would say for some of them, maybe curiosity needs to be one of the agreements. We will ask questions first. We will lead with questions.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that can be a tough shift for a lot of people, especially I think people up at the top, at least in my experience, which never included being up at the top, but, you know, often seemed like you’d ask a question and you would get an answer that felt like it came straight out of someone’s spin room instead of something genuine.
Danielle Marshall [00:22:27]:
Yeah. It it’s been scripted. Right? Yeah. The the language that we speak from, everyone should be singing from the song the same songbook. And I I do appreciate having messaging within an organization. Right? People generally should be able to talk about your work, talk about the impact that you’re having in similar ways. And yet when it comes to doing that deeper dive work, like, we can’t just go to well, you know, my my role my book says these are the the three things that are problematic. I’m like, no.
Danielle Marshall [00:22:58]:
But real time, people change, culture changes. You know, we have folks coming in and out of organizations. So, like, what are we dealing with today? And what do we imagine the future to to be for us?
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:10]:
Such good questions. Thank you. Such good questions. You’re bringing it right back to the present moment rather than letting it sort of circulate among past and future history.
Danielle Marshall [00:23:23]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:24]:
And then getting straight to okay. So what what do you wanna do about that?
Danielle Marshall [00:23:29]:
Yeah. I think it’s important to you know, we can ask questions about what has happened historically. That is important to ground up. But it’s not enough because we’re not just talking to talk. Right? There has to be some end outcome that we’re heading towards. And so if I can get that historical context, I can talk about where we are presently. Right? Because that matters too. What is true today, and where do we collectively want to be tomorrow? Now we have a pathway to walk on.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:58]:
Yeah. This is all so refreshing. Because, you know, you mentioned a feedback culture and I’ve I’ve worked in a number of places that I think that the people at the top thought that the people below them felt free to come and, you know, offer feedback, but nobody below them actually felt that way or felt that it would go well if they did.
Danielle Marshall [00:24:31]:
And
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:34]:
because of that, I am imagining that trying to shift an organization to a feedback culture might be kind of challenging.
Danielle Marshall [00:24:45]:
It can be at times. But, again, I I’m wanting to know what those pain points are. So even from the leadership team, right, if they assume that they have a feedback culture, tell me some examples. Right? When have you gotten good feedback that you’ve been able to utilize? What have you done with that feedback? How have you shared it with your team? Right? I’m asking these questions because, generally, folks will begin to realize for themselves, oh, maybe this isn’t as strong as we initially thought. And so I find it easier when I’m wearing my consultant hat to come in and ask questions that are gonna allow people to see it for themselves rather than to tell you, here’s your problem. Because anytime someone tells us we have a problem, we don’t want to hear it anymore. Yeah. Right? We just don’t.
Danielle Marshall [00:25:37]:
It’s it’s like, I don’t know where this comes from, like, if it’s biology or otherwise, but our minds shut down and we’re like, well, no. That can’t be true. You don’t know what you’re talking about versus asking the questions that allow them to be like, hey. You know what? We haven’t gotten any really good feedback on this in a while, or I wish I would have had more feedback for this project that we just rolled out. So, okay, if we didn’t get that, tell me a little bit about that. Why do you suppose that might be true? Yeah. Right? And so as they’re talking, they’re beginning to realize, well, you know, we we had a executive director here in the past who was kinda harsh, and so I think the team is still kind of reeling from that experience. Oh, well, tell me more.
Danielle Marshall [00:26:20]:
What have you done to indicate to people that you can receive feedback well and utilize it. And so, like, as we get into that, they’re starting to tease out for themselves, like, okay. Maybe there is some opportunity for growth and change at the top level, but also throughout the organization.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:39]:
I think that is so brilliant. Reminds me of a professor that I had, you know, when I went in with a a problem. Never told me what to do. Just asked me a bunch of questions that walked me through it, and that was I think it was my freshman year. And I, I walked out of there going, wow. I have never experienced anything like that before. You know, I thought I was just gonna get, oh, you need to do X, Y, and Z. And instead I got taken on this, this journey where I landed there and that feels so different.
Danielle Marshall [00:27:13]:
Mhmm. You were coached. Yeah. And I I love that process because I think it’s so much more empowering for us as individuals when we can arrive there ourselves. Because oftentimes, the answers are within us, but we don’t have enough quiet protected space to sit and, like, think about it. And sometimes having an outside perspective through a coach, through a mentor is what we need so that this person has a slightly different lens on it. And they’re like, well, tell me about this thing that you just mentioned. Right? Or have you noticed when you’re talking about this, your body language shifts? These are really powerful noticings.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:52]:
Yeah. And and you’re right. I mean, when when you walk away having come to that conclusion yourself, it’s not only more powerful. I think I think you internalize it in a different way. It’s much harder to say, oh, this this consultant thinks that this is the problem, but that’s not really true. When you’re the one who’s put the pieces together yourself, I don’t think it’s as easy to unsee that.
Danielle Marshall [00:28:23]:
No. Not at all. And and you own it. That’s the difference. If I tell you it’s my idea. If you realize it for yourself, you’re like, I’m brilliant. Look at what I came up with. And then the energy behind that is so much greater than anything I’m gonna offer you as one individual voice.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:41]:
Right. Right. And yet at the same time, going back to the idea of the feedback culture, I think even if you realize that you haven’t created a place that where feedback feels like it’s welcomed, taking feedback is a skill all on its own that you still need to learn.
Danielle Marshall [00:29:03]:
It absolutely is. And it’s something I think we can all collectively get better at.
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:08]:
Yes.
Danielle Marshall [00:29:09]:
You know, I have my moments even today knowing how important it is to get and receive this feedback. There are times where I’m like, my brain can’t process it in the moment. Yeah. But what I have gotten better at is simply being honest and transparent and saying, I thank you for the feedback. I’m gonna need a minute to process this. Can we regroup and talk about it later? Because sometimes you have to step back. We don’t know how that feedback’s gonna be given to you. We hope that it’s kind.
Danielle Marshall [00:29:39]:
We hope that it’s respectful. It is not always delivered that way. However, it does not mean that in all cases, what is being said is incorrect. Right? So I think there’s that opportunity to step back and, like, maybe the messenger wasn’t the best, but the message was one that I needed. Mhmm. But I think in that quiet space, there’s also a moment where you can discern if that was applicable to you because every message offered is not necessarily intended for you. Sometimes people are gonna give feedback because of where they sit in the world. Yes.
Danielle Marshall [00:30:16]:
But when you think about how that applies to your life, sometimes it’s not actually gonna be applicable in the way that the it was offered to you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:24]:
Yeah. And that’s just an extra complication in the process. Right? Because then it becomes so easy to say, oh, Susie was having a bad day today. And I think that’s why she said that. And I don’t think anything that she said was accurate. And it’s possible that nothing that Susie said was accurate, but it’s at least as possible that at least some of it is.
Danielle Marshall [00:30:46]:
Yeah. That was Susie’s ex experience with you. Right? And so there there might be some truth. I wonder why Susie believes this, right, or came to me with this information. But the thing that I would offer to folks who may be punting, if you will, any feedback offered them is to simply ask themselves when they have quiet time, how do I respond typically to feedback? Am I someone who welcomes it? Do I negate it? Or do I just ignore it? Right? Like, what what is happening for me? And if I am doing this thing where I’m basically saying, like, Susie’s completely off her rocker, this isn’t about me, What about that particular type of feedback, that moment, that context is leading me to believe what I believe?
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:36]:
Man, that is that is some deep stuff.
Danielle Marshall [00:31:40]:
It’s it’s about being able to sit with ourselves. Yeah. You know, like, I can’t say whether the feedback is accurate or not, but what I can say is, like, we have to pay attention to what’s happening within us.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:53]:
And, you know, as as you’re saying this, I’m thinking they re we really should be teaching this to kids in school so that it isn’t such a big deal, that it doesn’t bring up everyone’s defensiveness immediately and make it so much harder to hear rather than, you know, just kind of assuming that people are going to get it or just assuming that it’s not important. And I think also in I’ve, I’ve told this story on this show before, but in my MFA program, which was not like the kind of MFA programs that you hear horror stories about where everybody just savages each other’s stuff. There was a fellow student who was in my advising group at one point when my advisor mentioned that, you know, Goddard is not like that, who immediately started to turn bright red and said, well, that hasn’t been my experience. And every one of us in that room knew that it wasn’t his experience because he took every single thing, no matter how tiny or, you know, comparatively insignificant, really, really personally. He took it as a judgment against him Yeah. Rather than here’s how you can make this better. And and he was, he was, he always made me think of that, that old spaghetti sauce commercial. I think it was spaghetti sauce where, you know, something so spicy that the steam comes out the guy’s ears, because I kept expecting to see it, you know, but he could not, and I hope that he can now, but he could not separate himself from that work.
Nancy Norbeck [00:33:37]:
And so everything felt like a dagger to him. And that was genuinely his experience, that it felt like a dagger. Yeah. Even though nobody else in that room meant it that way. Mhmm. It was, was powerful for me to see because I realized that I had been that way, but had at least made some strides away from it because I was capable of seeing the difference. And I I mean, I felt bad for him because that’s no way to go through life.
Danielle Marshall [00:34:07]:
Sure.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:07]:
But, you know, it’s so hard when and I think it’s probably harder in a, in a work culture where it is your behavior or your comments that are causing the problem, whether you intended them to or not, for people to be able to find that distance and step back and say, this doesn’t necessarily mean I’m a terrible person. It just means I need better skills.
Danielle Marshall [00:34:31]:
Absolutely. But I also think that when we’re talking about feedback culture, like, what you ended on is really important because as a manager, right, or a supervisor in an organization, how are you delivering that feedback? Are you making it about the individual where I’m like, Nancy, you can’t seem to get this right? Or am I saying, hey, Nancy. I noticed that you struggled with this particular project. Do you need additional support, training, whatever it is, to accomplish it? I’m not saying that you’re not capable, but what I am acknowledging in that moment is no things didn’t go according to plan, and there may be some other resource that you need in order to be successful.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:10]:
Yeah. What can we do to make this better?
Danielle Marshall [00:35:12]:
Yes. And I think when you have that kind of supportive leadership, it feels a whole lot different than when someone’s just hammering you over the head and they’re like, you never get this right. Right. Now that you now you have attacked me as the individual. Mhmm. Right? But also sort of going back to what you shared in the MFA program, like, I think that we have to be able to just ask ourselves again. My reaction, what did I contribute to this scenario? What did this other person contribute? Right? And and to be able to sit with two things can be true. But if you’re constantly coming up with, like, I place blame on other people, Or I feel like everyone is attacking me.
Danielle Marshall [00:35:56]:
I’m like, is everyone really attacking you? Mhmm. What is surfacing for you that is leading you to believe that?
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:03]:
Yeah. And once again, it it all keeps coming back to asking the right questions in the right moment. Absolutely. Which sounds so simple. And yet
Danielle Marshall [00:36:17]:
and yet, right. That’s true.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:18]:
If it were simple, you wouldn’t have a job. So Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle Marshall [00:36:22]:
I liken it to a muscle. Right? Like, think about it this way. Like, so pandemic happened, you know, early twenty twenty, and we all sat around for a year, two years, you know, on the couch watching TV, eating bonbons, whatever you were doing at that time. And then all of a sudden, it’s okay to go back out into the world. And so people set goals, and I actually spoke to someone who’s like, I’m gonna sign up for a marathon. And I was like, well, congratulations. That’s fantastic. And they just said, well, I’m just gonna I’m just gonna go run it.
Danielle Marshall [00:36:56]:
And I was like, well, what have you been doing for the last the last couple of months? Like, have you prepared yourself? Well no. But I I’m a runner previously. I should be able to just get back into it. And I’m like, well, I don’t I’m not a big runner, but I’ve run a number of races to know that I can’t just go from couch literally to marathon. Right? I think there’s even an app called Couch to five k for the same reason. We cannot simply just get up and do this distance run. You have to build your stamina. You have to build the muscles.
Danielle Marshall [00:37:31]:
And so when I think about curiosity, and even as I’m giving people questions like, hey. Try this one on. They’re like, oh, well, it’s easy for you because this is what you do. And I said, but I wasn’t always this person. Like, yes, I ask questions, but I’ve learned to be intentional about how I ask my questions. Right? A well placed question changes the nature of a conversation. And so how do we get there? We try it on. Right? Wanna talk about feedback cultures? Get feedback from that question you ask because it may go extremely well.
Danielle Marshall [00:38:02]:
It may not work so well, but that is feedback in its own right in that moment. So the next time, you have an opportunity to do better, to show up differently.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:12]:
Yeah. And if it didn’t go well, you have an opportunity to say, why didn’t it go as well as I wanted it to? Exactly. And the same thing if it did go well. What made it what made it work as well as it did?
Danielle Marshall [00:38:26]:
Yeah. How do I repeat that thing? Like, that felt like a win for me. I felt really good about that moment. Wonderful. We don’t wanna just keep doing new things every single time. Like, keep the lessons learned both good and bad so that next time you show up, you’re stronger.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. It is. You’re you’re right. It is just like a muscle. And when you were talking about that person wanting to just up and run a marathon, all of mine started to hurt.
Danielle Marshall [00:38:52]:
I hear you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:56]:
So how do you advise people to learn to be intentional in asking questions?
Danielle Marshall [00:39:04]:
That feels like a big question in itself.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:06]:
I’m Feel free to break it down whatever way makes sense.
Danielle Marshall [00:39:09]:
I you know, the the starting place for me is what are you curious about? Sometimes I think it’s too difficult for people to jump to this big thing that they need to be curious about. And I’m I’m gonna give you an example because I work a lot on helping people build cultural humility, cultural awareness. Okay? So we’re talking about identity groups that are different in whatever way, whether it is race, ethnicity, gender, you name it. Okay? They’re different from you. That can feel, particularly in a polarized world, like a lot for people to swallow right now. Right? They they may say, I I want to be curious about this other individual, but I don’t even know where to start. And to those individuals, I basically will back it up a little bit and simply say, what are you curious about in general? Right? It might be, you want to learn a new skill. You I I just started pickleball because I was pretty sure that I was the only person alive that had not started pickleball yet.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:11]:
You’re not.
Danielle Marshall [00:40:11]:
And so I’m learning that. I’m learning that. But here’s the thing. Right? So if I want to I wanna learn pickleball, what what do I need to understand about this? Well, maybe I need to figure out, like, where there are courts in my community. Who else is playing? How much does it cost? Where do I get materials? Right? So I’m asking questions that are pretty benign in this case, but they’re all in service of this place that I want to go. Right? Now I flip that over to something that’s more challenging for me. So, like, if I’m trying to bridge across difference with the group, culturally, politically, what do I really want to understand about this individual, this group of people? Where can I find information? Right? How do I test out what I’m learning? So same process, take something that is very simple to you that you enjoy doing or that you want to genuinely do and then start applying how you thought about that to something that’s more difficult because the steps are exactly the same.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:12]:
I feel like what you just said could make such a huge difference in the moment that we are in right now if everyone did it, or even if just a critical mass of people did it. I feel like we are at that point where curiosity about our world in general is at a low, and we could use a whole lot more of it.
Danielle Marshall [00:41:35]:
I I’m a huge advocate for that exact reason. I don’t think that we can get past a lot of the divisions that we are seeing in our society today without dialogue. And to have a meaningful dialogue, I actually have to care about what the other person is saying. Yeah. I have to ask questions.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:54]:
And I don’t think you can get to that level of caring until you ask the questions to remind yourself that we’re all still human.
Danielle Marshall [00:42:02]:
Yeah. Did I come in to genuinely learn about, again, the individual, the situation, or did I come in with my assumptions and my agenda? And my only goal here is to tell you what I think.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:16]:
Yeah. Oh, I think a lot of us have lost touch with that too. Yes. Yeah. It’s so easy. It’s so much easier in fact to just assume that you have the answers and that your impression is right than to ask the questions.
Danielle Marshall [00:42:37]:
But here’s what I would say to that. Right? Much the same as I would say to a CEO of a company who’s like, we everything’s fine here. Mhmm. When people assume that they know best, how is that working for you?
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:53]:
Yeah.
Danielle Marshall [00:42:54]:
You know? I mean, like, it’s a very simple question, but how is this behavior, this thought process working for you? Because the reason we’re angry and agitated is because it is not working.
Nancy Norbeck [00:43:06]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle Marshall [00:43:10]:
And so once you have that realization, again, I don’t have to tell you it’s not working. You need to realize that it’s not working. And once you do, I can then follow-up and ask you, well, what would it need to look like in order for it to be better, to feel better, to you know, for us to be able to be a community again? Like, I could insert whatever I want, but what needs to look different?
Nancy Norbeck [00:43:36]:
I’m just so struck by how powerful these questions are. What needs to look different? And and what needs to look different to that CEO may not be the same as what needs to look different to the person way down in the ranks. Absolutely. In my experience, the people who are lower in the ranks tend to have a clearer understanding of what’s not working because they have to deal with everyone above them. But the people on the top don’t don’t work on that level, so they don’t necessarily see all of it.
Danielle Marshall [00:44:09]:
Yeah. And so imagine that in any context, right, from organization to family structure when we have parents and kids to our government. Yeah. Sometimes the folks on top do not understand the impact it has on the regular, you know, Joe at the bottom.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:28]:
And I’m always fascinated. And, again, this is more about a work environment, but, like, by how quickly when people move up in those ranks, they seem to forget everything that they knew when they were at the bottom. I’m seeing you nodding. I’m glad to know it’s not just me.
Danielle Marshall [00:44:44]:
No. It’s it’s not. There’s a disconnect. Right? We’re not frontline workers anymore. And because we’re not on the frontline, we don’t deal with the customer in the same way. We’re not hearing what they like. We’re not hearing what they’re complaining about. Right? All we know is I have a staff member who keeps bringing these issues up to me, and I don’t know why they just can’t figure it out.
Danielle Marshall [00:45:05]:
But I’m not gonna give them any resources to help them get there. Yeah. Right? They they must be incompetent. So, again, assumption instead of asking this question. Hey. You I’ve noticed a lot of complaints coming out of this particular team or department. Tell me a little bit about what’s going on. Like, what do you think is driving this? Right? All we have to do is sit down and ask questions and be in dialogue.
Danielle Marshall [00:45:28]:
No assumptions, no agenda other than figuring out what is actually happening.
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:34]:
Yeah. It’s so deceptively simple.
Danielle Marshall [00:45:38]:
Yes. But here’s why I love curiosity. Right? Like, every single one of us has the power to be curious. We all ask questions. Now how intentional we are with them, that is a different story, but we come out as kids asking a thousand and one different questions. We still have that our whole lives. This is just about a choice.
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:01]:
Yes. Yes. And I’m glad that you brought up the kids again because it’s been sitting in the back of my head this whole time. You know, I I think there are studies that say that, like, children ask something like, I’m gonna get this wrong. I wanna say 400 questions a day. And as I’m saying that, that sounds too low, honestly. And then that by a certain age, you know, it’s dropped down to, like, 25% of that. And I feel like, you know, we’ve all had the experience of that kid who no matter what answer you give them says, but why?
Danielle Marshall [00:46:40]:
Yeah. That was me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:41]:
Right? I mean, I think most of us were, because that’s just how kids are wired. Mhmm. But, you know, and I, I mean, I get you get to the point where you’re like, I don’t know anymore. I’m out of answers to give you. Yeah. And and I need you to stop asking me about this for a while. You know? I mean, I I get that. And yet at the same time, you know, as you say, we all have this capacity for curiosity.
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:08]:
It it just probably because we annoyed mom and dad and they said stop asking questions, you know, and whatever. It it drops off, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t there.
Danielle Marshall [00:47:18]:
Yeah. I I wanna give you an example of, like, how I think it can still be beat out of us even as adults. Okay? Years ago, I worked at a nonprofit, and I was, we’ll say, like, a mid mid manager in the organization. And we had met as a team, and I met with the senior leadership team. We had discussed some project. I don’t remember what it was right now, and we had then gone back into a staff meeting. Now I was part of that leadership team meeting. When we got into the staff meeting, I asked a question because no one else on the staff was asking questions, and I asked a question of the I believe it was the CEO.
Danielle Marshall [00:48:00]:
Maybe it was it was one of the vice presidents, and I got in trouble later on. And the reason that I got in trouble for asking that question is they said, you, of all people, should know better because you are at this level of the organization. Now here’s the thing. I did not ask because I did not know the answer. I asked because there were other people in that room who were afraid to ask the very question that I asked, and I knew that they had this question because we had had previous conversations. But so I’m being berated in this moment for simply opening the floor up for the very thing they asked for. They asked for questions from the audience of which there were none. And so I think about that.
Danielle Marshall [00:48:46]:
Now me being who I am, I was like, okay. So you can yell and get upset about this, and I will continue to be me because that’s just how I am. Good for you. But there are many other people who would take that as a moment where it’s just like, oh, because I stepped outside of my comfort zone, because I asked this question, I was beat down. Therefore, the lesson I’m taking away is that I should never open my mouth again Mhmm. In these staff meetings. And so when I think about that and, again, this feedback culture and how is this working for you, if you are belittling your team in a way that makes them guard information, your company is in trouble. You need to understand both the good and the bad.
Danielle Marshall [00:49:29]:
Right? And even those things that might seem pretty benign in the beginning, you need to have a good understanding of the landscape so that you can make more strategy decisions as the CEO, as the leadership team. The second you shut down that pipeline of information, because we’ve already talked about this, you are removed from the front line. You have no idea what’s happening, and you think everything’s fine.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:53]:
Yeah. Not only do you have no idea what’s happening, you don’t realize that you have no idea what’s happening. You think, you know, because you’re hearing from the people at the top who, for whatever reason, whether they don’t know either, or they just don’t wanna tell you or something else, aren’t telling you. Yeah.
Danielle Marshall [00:50:11]:
And you’re creating a trust, like a a culture of mistrust in your organization while you do that as well, because now maybe something really big has happened and I’m like, I should probably notify someone. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:21]:
And I’m
Danielle Marshall [00:50:21]:
like, who do I talk to when everything feels punitive? And I’m like, maybe I should just keep that to myself because I don’t if I didn’t see it, it wasn’t my my issue to deal with.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:32]:
Yeah. And and I’m also you know, I think we’ve probably all either, you know, been in a situation where either we were relieved that someone else had the courage to ask the question so we didn’t have to, or we were that person and someone came up to us afterwards and said, I’m so glad you asked about
Danielle Marshall [00:50:51]:
that. Yes. Yes. All the time. And I think that is I mean, that speaks volumes, but it’s also a challenge because we should not be looking to only one person to speak up. Right. Right? Like, I believe, fundamentally, each individual has agency. And so if you have agency, it means that you can do things, you can change things on your behalf.
Danielle Marshall [00:51:17]:
But the second that you get silenced, your agency is gone. You can’t be your own advocate anymore. And I think of all the things that I think about in the world, my voice is the most critical piece of, like, my who I am. Mhmm. I will not allow others to silence my voice because what happens on that moment where I’ve waited so long and now there isn’t an opportunity to speak up for what I believe in anymore?
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:45]:
Right. And if we were all willing to ask the questions, it would make a much bigger impression and, you know, make it easier for that person at the top to put the pieces together, shall we say.
Danielle Marshall [00:52:01]:
We hope so. You know, there there are still going to be people, and I I don’t want to leave any listener with the impression that asking a question is going to fix everything because I think that, you know, the the receiving party has to be willing to entertain them. But, also, to me, because this is about agency, at least I can say at the end of the day, I did my absolute best to surface something that I found problematic. Right? There was a challenge. I said something about it. If I don’t, I’m complicit. Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:38]:
Right. I think that that those of us who are nervous about speaking up, a lot of the time either haven’t wrestled with that or don’t want to.
Danielle Marshall [00:52:51]:
Yeah. And I mean, at the end of the day, you have to choose. Right? Like, I much rather use my voice in the here and now when I know I still have access to it than to realize one day when it is too far gone down the road that I no longer have the ability to speak up.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:10]:
Yeah.
Danielle Marshall [00:53:12]:
Because in that case, you’d abdicated your responsibility and you’ve turned it over to someone else.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:17]:
Yeah. So then you are complicit in ending up without that opportunity too. Absolutely. So much responsibility
Danielle Marshall [00:53:27]:
in so many ways. Single question.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. And yet, you know, I mean, a question also seems usually, depending on how you ask it, less threatening than an accusation, certainly.
Danielle Marshall [00:53:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. So let me leave people with a tip around that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:45]:
Please do.
Danielle Marshall [00:53:46]:
The one word that you want to try to avoid when you’re asking questions is why. Really? And peep yeah. Because the second I say why, it feels like I’m accusing you of something. That’s true. Nancy, why’d you wear that outfit today?
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:01]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle Marshall [00:54:01]:
Right? Why’d you style your hair that way? Why’d you go to the store first before going to the bank? All of a sudden, it feels like I’m pointing a finger at you, and I’m like, you’re wrong for this choice that you’ve made. But if I say, you know, tell me how you planned out your day. You know, were there a couple of choices of outfits that you pick that you were picking out for today? That’s a much open, more conversational kind of question to ask than simply saying why did you do this.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:29]:
Yeah. That’s such a good point, and it seems so obvious now that you’ve said it. Yeah.
Danielle Marshall [00:54:33]:
I mean, think about kids. Okay? They’re the perfect example for this. If you say, why did you throw, you know, this thing on the floor? What does a kid do? They look at you and they shrug and they’re like, I don’t know. And that’s their answer. You’re not getting anything out of that. Reframing of the question makes a world of difference. So I would just say why is not my favorite question. You can certainly use it, but, like, it is definitely going to put people in a more defensive posture than, you know, what, when, where, how, all these other things that we could add in.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:06]:
Yeah. I can see where, how did you come to this conclusion is a much more useful question than Yeah. Why did you make this decision?
Danielle Marshall [00:55:15]:
Yeah. You talk about polarization in our world instead of why do you believe this? Like, oh, could you tell me a little bit about, like, what information you’ve read that made you, you know, believe this particular thing? Now we’re having a different conversation. This is not about the individual making a bad choice. It is simply I’m asking about context.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:34]:
Right. But you’re still gonna get a more interesting answer. You most certainly will. Yeah. Well, that’s a fabulous note to end on and I hope, I mean, certainly it’s, it’s tumbling around in my head and probably will be for a while, so I hope that it does for others.
Danielle Marshall [00:55:52]:
Absolutely. It was a pleasure to sit and chat with you today about one of my favorite topics, so I love it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:58]:
Likewise. Thank you so much. Thank you. That’s our show. If you’re curious about how to ask better questions in hard conversations, Danielle Marshall has a free playbook to guide you, and you will find that link in the show notes. I really appreciate Danielle sharing her time with us and you for listening. I hope you’ll leave a review for this episode. There is a link in your podcast app, and it is super easy and really makes a difference.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:24]:
If you enjoyed our conversation, please do share it with a friend. Thank you so much. If you’re tired of thinking about answering a creative call, but never actually doing it, come join me for an hour and start feeling like yourself again. The follow your curiosity creativity circle is a safe, welcoming, and encouraging environment where we send the shoulds and inner critics off to summer camp where they’re kept busy rather than getting in our way. You can find it at the link in your podcast app. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:11]:
And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.