Uniting Communities through Music with Lianna Magerr and Kimberly Doucette

When you hear the words “children’s chorus,” you probably think of a pretty straightforward group of kids making music. If you’re in Wilmington, Delaware, you have good reason to think of a whole lot more. Wilmington Children’s Chorus Executive Director Lianna Magerr and Artistic Director Kimberly Doucette join me to talk about how they’ve gone beyond the rehearsal room to create an organization that reaches more than 500 kids in the Wilmington area, many from low-income neighborhoods, with the goal of empowering young people to change their world through music.

Read this week’s post, “How to Stop Being Your Own Creative Enemy,” here.

Episode breakdown:

00:00 Lianna’s and Kimberly’s creative background.

10:18 Lianna wanted to teach; followed passion through choir.

14:37 WCC evolves to meet ever-changing community needs.

17:55 Pioneered safe in-person singing during COVID-19.

27:35 COVID disrupted children’s conflict resolution skill development.

31:13 Neighborhood choir program for underserved communities launched successfully.

39:02 Inclusive environment helps kids try new activities.

43:20 Early childhood music boosts development but requires resources.

47:40 Community centers essential for low-income neighborhoods.

51:15 Families support children’s chorus through donations, trust.

59:56 Identify community needs and provide unique contributions.

01:01:56 Collaborative spirit and community connections in Wilmington.

01:06:52 Wilmington Children’s Chorus 20th anniversary post-COVID concert

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Transcript

Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. When you hear the words children’s chorus, you probably think of a pretty straightforward group of kids making music. If you’re in Wilmington, Delaware, you have good reason to think of a whole lot more. Wilmington Children’s Chorus executive director Lianna Magerr and artistic director Kimberly Doucette join me to talk about how they’ve gone beyond the rehearsal room to create an organization that reaches more than 500 kids in the Wilmington area, many from low income neighborhoods, with the goal of empowering young people to change their world through music.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:53]:
I think you’ll enjoy this conversation with Lianna Magerr and Kimberly Doucette. Lianna and Kimberly, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.

Lianna Magerr [00:01:03]:
Thank you so much for having us.

Kimberly Doucette [00:01:06]:
We’re happy to be here.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:08]:
So I start everyone with the same question, which is, were you a creative kid, or did you discover that part of yourself later on?

Lianna Magerr [00:01:19]:
Kim told me that we would probably get this question. So we actually talked about it earlier, and my response was like, no. I was not a creative kid. I didn’t want to have to come up with creative ideas on my own. I was always the kid who was like, I I’m gonna go to choir because they’re gonna tell me what to sing, and they’re gonna give me the sheet music, and I get to do it. I just get to do what’s on the paper, and that was kind of my my go to. So I wasn’t very creative. I found it later.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:51]:
That’s interesting because I would say going to choir is pretty creative.

Lianna Magerr [00:01:54]:
It is, but I didn’t think of it that way when I was a child. I just was like, tell me what you want me to do, and I’ll I’ll sing this song the way that you’ve told me to sing it. But, obviously, there’s so much creativity in in choral singing. I just didn’t see it that way when I was a child.

Kimberly Doucette [00:02:11]:
I always loved performing. I was a performing kid at heart. It’s kind of funny because I was an introvert, and I still am. And I in real life, I didn’t love being the center of attention, but when I got on stage, I did. And I always kind of loved exploring emotions, through performing whether it was in theater, musical theater, or choral singing, solo singing. So I certainly did express myself that way. I was never the type of kid that, was composing or creating my own art other than, I did some improvisation. I was a saxophone player in high school, and I enjoyed jazz band and that kind of creative element too.

Nancy Norbeck [00:02:59]:
Jazz band is awesome. I was always kind of jealous of the jazz band kids. So, Lianna, when did you discover your more creative side?

Lianna Magerr [00:03:10]:
I don’t know that I ever really thought of that as, like, a side of myself until I was much older and even an adult. I was always involved in, like, artistic and creative endeavors. But I was also really involved in, like, the back end of things. So I was a theater kid, and I did theater throughout high school, but I also really loved my tech class and learning about theater technology and, stage management and running things behind the scenes, very appropriate for what I do now. So I always liked the arts, but I also liked learning how they worked kind of off stage and behind the curtain. And I was super interested in those elements. And I I performed too when I was in shows and I sang. And I loved those creative pursuits, but I was so interested in seeing the way that other people made those creative pursuits possible.

Lianna Magerr [00:04:06]:
So I was really interested in that world. And I think I hid my love of what was creative in in sort of what was technical and kind of behind the scenes. But as I got older, particularly as I I moved away from, like, you know, singing and teaching as part of my profession and and became executive director of our organization, I was starting to really miss that creative side of my brain. So, like, joining a choir for fun was something I’ve done in the last couple of years because I missed singing. I missed having a creative outlet. So I think I didn’t fully embrace it until I didn’t have it as part of my daily life as much anymore.

Nancy Norbeck [00:04:50]:
I so understand that. Totally relate to that. And, Kim, what about you when, you know, you did so many things, but, you know, you have that introverted side too. But also I’m wondering, you know, did did you have, like, the sort of stereotypical parental reaction that was like, oh, she’s into all of these creative things, and that’s great. But how is she gonna survive in the world and, you know, be able to pay her rent and all of that kind of stuff?

Kimberly Doucette [00:05:22]:
To some extent, but my parents were always incredibly supportive. I think I probably put a little bit more of that on myself because I am such a practical person and want to make sure that, you know, I’m able to be successful in this world. So I think maybe more of that came from, just that practicality in my youth of wanting to have a path of multiple possibilities for my future. But I I certainly did love performing, and I did that for many years and pursued that when I first got out of college, and my my master’s degree was in voice performance. And I think my parents were actually kind of surprised that I went a little bit more in the education route, because I I did an education degree as my undergrad. I did both education and performance in music. But at that time, I thought I was leaning more towards performance. But once I started working with the Wilmington Children’s Chorus, even though I was still performing at the same time, that connection with the young people here in Wilmington, and really see them grow and how I can help foster that growth through music.

Kimberly Doucette [00:06:37]:
That really transformed my thinking and helped get me more interested in this kind of work.

Nancy Norbeck [00:06:44]:
Yeah. I can totally as a former teacher, I understand that too. So

Kimberly Doucette [00:06:50]:
And I think that’s been one of the interesting things about the Wilmington Children’s Queries is we have really created this together. So, Lianna and I and my husband, Phil, who is the associate director, we have been the team on this project for so long. We have shaped this project, in the way that we think is best going to serve our community and the young people in our city. So a lot of this creativity has been that kind of behind the scenes work to help showcase our youth, but it really has been a creative process between the 3 of us.

Nancy Norbeck [00:07:29]:
So tell me how how does this story go? I take it that that the children’s chorus is a relatively new thing as opposed to something that you took over, but I could be wrong about that.

Kimberly Doucette [00:07:40]:
Well, actually, we were formed in 2,002, and I we were not the founding team on this project. Our founding artistic director David Christopher, created the project as kind of a collaboration between a church here in the city of Wilmington and the city of Wilmington’s Cultural Affairs Office. Their nonprofit arm is called City Fest Inc. And they created this project, and David brought me on in 2005. So just a couple years into the program, I was, a voice student of his, and he knew that I was kind of working towards that, a career as a singer. And he said, you know, I I know you have an education degree. I thought you might wanna just help out on this project. In the meantime, I know you like working with kids.

Kimberly Doucette [00:08:33]:
And I said, sure. Why not? I I need a job, to help support my singing, and this sounds like a a fun thing to do. It took over my life. I just really fell in love with the project. I fell in love with the kids, and that, community sense of learning here and the way we could do things differently, than in a school setting. Not that school music education isn’t incredible and so valuable, but the opportunities to really kind of strike our own path and create our own, vision here in Wilmington. That’s what attracted me to this organization. And as I say, kids change everything.

Kimberly Doucette [00:09:13]:
So since 2005, I’ve been working with the organization. In 2009, I became the artistic director. And in that time, like I said, my husband Phil also joined in with the organization. He started by doing some managing with us and then he’s gradually added more and more conducting responsibilities. And then, Lianna, you wanna add your story? Yeah.

Lianna Magerr [00:09:38]:
I came on in 2007 as a student, actually. I was a member of the Wilmington Children’s Chorus. I think I started in my 8th grade year, and I stayed with them all throughout high school. So Kim, I knew her first as one of my teachers, and her husband Phil. And I loved my time at WCC. It was really wonderful to make connections with so many different, kids from the city of Wilmington and the surrounding area. And I also felt very connected to it. I wanted to be a teacher, and that had been my goal since I was 4 years old.

Lianna Magerr [00:10:18]:
My mom always likes to tell the story of for Christmas, I asked for a whiteboard and whiteboard markers so that I could do school with my stuffed animals. That was my favorite game of choice. If I could, I would convince my brothers to do school as well. They weren’t always as game. But I I wanted to be a teacher. And so throughout high school, I’m singing with the Wilmington Children’s Chorus and making wonderful memories and friends, but I was also noticing how aligned my personal teaching philosophy and the teaching philosophy of the Wilmington Children’s Course was. So when I went to school for education, went on to college for education, it was remarkable to stay connected with the organization, and get to see sort of like a side by side contrast. I was going into, you know, public schools in the area and really getting a firsthand look at what public school education was like.

Lianna Magerr [00:11:15]:
And then I was going to children’s chorus, and I was getting a firsthand look at what, after school and in school programming could look like. And I was really moved and connected to WUCC’s commitment to high quality education, to our social emotional learning components, to our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion. These were all things that were super important to me as an educator. And while I was in some wonderful schools, I was also hearing from teachers, public school teachers at the time, who were like, don’t don’t come into this profession. I had multiple teachers tell me not to enter the teaching profession. And this was back in 2015, 2014, 2015. Some of these educators really were seeing the writing on the wall. And so I’d always been connected to children’s chorus.

Lianna Magerr [00:12:08]:
It really had my heart. I was doing some part time work for them. And when the time came to, you know, either enter the teaching workforce or do something else, I really I took a look at Children’s Chorus and at the time we were relatively small organization. We were still technically part of this, you know, mayor’s office of cultural affairs, nonprofit. So we were sort of the smaller pilot program. We had a tiny budget. It was under $100,000 at the time. And I just thought, you know, it this organization needs someone who’s young enough and dumb enough and doesn’t know, like, the financial realities of the world to just, like, throw their sweat equity into it.

Lianna Magerr [00:12:52]:
And, you know, that’s not that’s not a story without flaws. Like, the the system is not perfect, and we should acknowledge that. But I was like, I think we can make this something. I really think we can. And Kim’s right that, you know, herself and Phil, her husband, and and me have really, like, molded this organization into what it is today. So we’re an independent nonprofit now. Our budget is, like, 5 times what it was. You know, just, like, 7 years ago, we’re reaching double the kids.

Lianna Magerr [00:13:25]:
It’s really exploded. And a lot of that is is due to the the hard work that Kim, Phil, and myself have put into children’s chorus for I mean, Kim, for nearly 2 decades now. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:13:41]:
It it can’t be easy to grow something like that.

Lianna Magerr [00:13:46]:
It is not. It it requires so much of yourself in a way that not every job does. And lots of people love their jobs and and put a lot of heart into it. But to take something from its infancy and move it into a new stage of life requires, like, hard work and sacrifice and personal investment. So and this is not, again, perfect, but, like, so much of my identity and success as a professional is wrapped up in children’s course. I’m sure Kim feels the same and so does Phil. You know, so much of us is in this organization, and so much of this organization is in each of us. So it takes a tremendous amount of investment.

Kimberly Doucette [00:14:37]:
And I would say that investment continues because our organization is ever evolving. And that’s I think one of the challenges of nonprofit work is that you never feel like the job is done. And and certainly working with children in the ever changing landscape of our world today, what do our kids need now? It’s so different than what it was 3 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. Every year, I feel like we change something, we reinvent something, we try to really just dig down and find what our community needs, and how we can creatively address that those problems that our community has and and the strengths. What what can we do to uplift the strengths of our community to help solve some of the challenges?

Nancy Norbeck [00:15:26]:
Could you give us an example of that, especially, like, the difference between now and a couple of years ago?

Kimberly Doucette [00:15:33]:
Sure. Yeah. I think, you know, there are so many wonderful things that we experienced during the pandemic. Obviously, lots and lots of challenges, but that opportunity to stay connected, when so many things were disconnected. We had we worked so hard to maintain, some sort of sense of normalcy for our choristers, for the folks who were singing in our performing choir programs and maintain as much connection as we possibly could. And we were able to really create very strong bonds because everything else was taken off of their plates. And now everything has come rushing back in. And it seems like I don’t know if it’s more than it used to be, but it certainly is taxing our young people more than it used to.

Kimberly Doucette [00:16:37]:
And just the level of anxiety, and pressure that our young people feel in this world is really it’s such a shame. It’s so daunting to to see how they are struggling, and to continue to bring music in a way that supports them, doesn’t overwhelm them, but allows them to express the challenges of the world and how they want to reimagine this world. I think that’s really where we are artistically as an organization, trying to help our young people learn to approach this world, without so much pressure, and with a little bit of freedom to explore and realize that they do have a voice, they do have a way to contribute, and they can do that through art.

Nancy Norbeck [00:17:34]:
Absolutely. So how did you how did you manage to keep the connection going during the pandemic?

Kimberly Doucette [00:17:43]:
There I am.

Nancy Norbeck [00:17:43]:
Was it all on Zoom?

Lianna Magerr [00:17:47]:
It was on Zoom. It was in parking lots. It was it was just the weirdest experience. We were one

Kimberly Doucette [00:17:55]:
of the first organizations to actually come back in person, because we did incredibly thorough research and actually that was, through Phil, my husband and his connection with, The Voice Foundation and many other, researchers who were doing a lot of research on singing and the spread of COVID 19. So we have firsthand access to a lot of information, a lot of technology. So we really investigated and took advantage of that connection and the opportunities for funding to do things like, get special air purification units, and really find ways to keep our foresters safe. So, yes, you know, certainly for the spring of 2020 and into the beginning of the summer, we were entirely virtual. And then we started in the summer of 2020 getting together outside, like Lianna said, in some parking lots and parks distanced at 8 feet and masked with we did a bit of recording of what would have been our spring concert, project for that year, out in parks with microphones all around, lot of technology. And then starting in the fall of 2020 actually is when we started doing limited in person interactions, with a mix of indoor and outdoor, but the indoor was with very extensive precautions. Could not have been more safe, I think. And we actually we experienced no transmission, through those through that process.

Kimberly Doucette [00:19:32]:
So we were very fortunate, to find a way to do it as safely as possible. Of course, there’s always risk, in in all the things that we do, but, we were very very committed to the safety of our young people and that and maintaining that connection that they were not able to maintain in so many other ways. And then in the spring of 2021, we actually put together a documentary film, and we recorded some things indoors, again with extensive precautions and masking and everything, But it’s a really beautiful film that really investigates the twin pandemics of COVID nineteen and racism and how they impacted our young people in our community and their response to that. So we’re incredibly proud of that project, and being able to create something that I feel was very artistically powerful in the midst of such a challenging time.

Lianna Magerr [00:20:33]:
I think one of the things we’re really good at at the Wilmington Children’s Chorus is asking the question, how can we do this? Not can we do this? We sort of approach things with the, like, yeah. We can. How can we do it? And, as a team, we’re we’re get we’re getting quite skilled at taking that approach even in super challenging situations. And so we were the 1st singing based organization to go back to any in person, activities in the state of Delaware. And that’s not because we were irresponsible. It was the opposite. We were incredibly responsible. And part of what being responsible meant to us was caring for the social emotional needs of our kids and being responsive to what they were asking for.

Lianna Magerr [00:21:18]:
And so in person, even if it was outdoor in a parking lot, and we had some kids zooming in at the same time I mean, talk about, like, follow your curiosity. Where will it lead you? I will never forget climbing out onto the roof of a building that I guess I shall not name for insurance purposes. Climbing out onto the roof of this very old building in downtown Wilmington and threading an Ethernet cable out the window across the roof and down the side of the building so that we could plug in a computer and have Internet access in an outdoor parking lot to have these rehearsals. I mean, moments like that where you’re just, how did I get here? How did this recount in my life? But that’s the answer when you ask yourself, like, how can we do this no matter what it is? It’s like, do I need to climb out on a roof to make this happen? Okay. Let’s do it. I just wanna say for legal purposes that we don’t make our employees climb out on roofs all the time. It’s a one time thing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:22:24]:
Honestly, that brings back memories for me of of college and, you know, running coax across the windows in the dorm and pulling it in to, you know, get sort of faux cable TV off of somebody else’s antenna. So, you know, I I totally understand that impulse because that’s what we actually did. But I think, you know, I’m I’m honestly I’m impressed that you came up with the ideas to do the things that you did. I mean, to have a concert in a park with microphones and kids spread out sounds amazing to me. You know? And probably, you know, reached a whole bunch of other people who hadn’t had anywhere to go for months to go hear something too. So it sounds like a win win for everybody. And I think, you know, it is interesting. I mean, choir and, you know, I was a choir kid too.

Nancy Norbeck [00:23:18]:
In many ways, I still am. It it is such an interesting combination of so many things because it’s it’s creative. It’s musical. It’s, you know, sort of what you were saying at the beginning, Lianna, about just learn learn how to you know, what what are these squiggles on this paper mean, and what do I do with them? And then how do we turn them into something? But it’s also such an incredible social experience. It’s it’s social in a way that a lot of other art forms aren’t. And especially for kids, I think, you know, you you create bonds in choirs at any age, but I think it’s especially powerful when you’re younger.

Lianna Magerr [00:23:59]:
It’s vulnerable to sing with other people. It’s vulnerable to sing at all, I think, because your instrument is your body.

Kimberly Doucette [00:24:07]:
Mhmm.

Lianna Magerr [00:24:08]:
Right? It’s you’re not it’s not external to you. It’s not a flute or a guitar or a piano. If something goes wrong, you can’t blame instrument is you. And when you

Kimberly Doucette [00:24:16]:
teens sing, when you sing in a choir

Lianna Magerr [00:24:17]:
with other people, you’re relying on the instruments of others as well. And so it’s very vulnerable, and it requires a level of trust, and it requires being in community with others, in a way that I think is really beautiful. And it’s a wonderful lesson to teach kids regardless of whether they, you know, go on to continue singing in choirs or have a professional career as a musician or a music educator. It’s a wonderful thing to teach kids to do an activity in community with others.

Kimberly Doucette [00:24:52]:
Our choristers really do talk about this as a choir family, and they relate to each other in such powerful ways and have been able to kind of create these nurturing relationships between different ages, different kids from all different types of backgrounds. So that’s one of the wonderful things about the Wilmington Children’s Chorus is we have kids from more than 30 different schools that come together to sing with us. Kids who would never meet each other if it weren’t for a program like this. And they create bonds, they create relationships, and they create opportunities to impact each other’s lives and our community in such powerful ways that wouldn’t be possible in another situation.

Nancy Norbeck [00:25:42]:
Yeah. And what I’m wondering is, you know, kids and screens are in the news all the time now. And is it is it hard to get kids to understand that this is a communal thing and that, you know, you have to listen to the people around you and, you know, you aren’t there to critique them. You’re there to to do the best you can do while part of the group. I mean, that’s kind of a complex idea. And it it does it does it take pretty easily, or does it take a little time and effort?

Kimberly Doucette [00:26:17]:
It’s a it’s a mix, really. I mean, with our older kids, there are certainly some that really hate that moment when we ask that the cell phones go away and that the watches, get put on do not disturb and that kind of thing. But once they start to appreciate that really they don’t have that buzz that’s going off all the time, They really do value those moments, and that immediate connection. So, yes, we do have some challenges with our high schoolers, but almost across the board, maybe not a 100%, but almost across the board, they say that they do value that time once they have taken the devices away. I will say our younger kids are fine with it. They really dive right in and, you know, I really expected our younger kids to have more challenges after COVID, but they have rebounded quite well.

Nancy Norbeck [00:27:12]:
That’s really encouraging. Because you hear so many stories about, you know, things that kids lost with remote school and things like that. So so, yeah, that that is I I wish we could say it for everyone. I’m not sure that a lot of the rest of us have rebounded as well as the as the younger kids probably have. Yeah.

Lianna Magerr [00:27:35]:
And, I mean, it’s there’s still so much learning loss that occurred. And I particularly, I think it’s an immediate year or so kind of back from COVID. One of the things that I noticed in in my own teaching because I was I taught for the Wilmington Children’s Forest for a long time. Conflict management between kids was out the window. I think they’re still they’re still relearning some of those skills. Well, especially if you kindergarten your kindergarten year was interrupted by COVID and you spent half of kindergarten and 1st grade at home, and then you show up at 2nd grade and you’re expected to have a second grader’s conflict resolution skills and you’ve never had a chance to practice that at all, how are you supposed to learn those things? They learn that by doing, and by having experiences that they navigate with their peers, and so that opportunity was not present. So I definitely think conflict resolution skills are something that are still being rebuilt with a lot of our kids, of all ages because you you miss out on those years of practicing resolution that those sorts of resolutions with your peers and, you don’t you don’t get them back. So you just have to keep building those skills over time.

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:51]:
Yeah. You you’ve got me wondering about all of the rest of us in our conflict resolution skills now too when you haven’t had

Lianna Magerr [00:28:58]:
Some adults also need to work on their conflict resolution skills.

Nancy Norbeck [00:29:02]:
Yeah. I mean, we were all kind of, you know, locked down in our own little places. And I think the reason many of us found that less stressful is that we didn’t have the level of of conflict to deal with every day. And so, yeah, that makes sense that that we all got a little rusty on that. And when you you talk about the the high school kids, you you have a really wide age age range in this group. And how how does that work out?

Lianna Magerr [00:29:32]:
Yeah. We start at 6 weeks old, and we have programs that serve kids all the way through 18. So we are with kids in their very first years of life and all throughout their school journey. We have different programs that serve different age groups. So we have an early childhood program that starts with our really little ones, and then we have school age programs. We have programs that run the school year. We have programs that exclusively operate in the summer. Children’s course has a fairly wide breadth of programming, and different programs that we offer in partnership with community centers, camps, daycares, preschools so that we’re reaching a very wide range of kids.

Lianna Magerr [00:30:10]:
We work with over 6 100 students every year, and also so that we’re meeting the different needs of our community.

Nancy Norbeck [00:30:18]:
That’s amazing.

Kimberly Doucette [00:30:20]:
Yeah. I think it comes back to that what does our community need. When the children’s chorus was formed, it was just what we call the performing choirs now, and that’s kind of that traditional children’s chorus model where kids from all over the area come and audition. The thing that is not traditional about it is that it is tuition free. There are no tuition or fees that act as a barrier to participation. But we reach about 130 to 150 kids each year through that performing choir model, and that goes right now from ages 6 up to 18. But we also recognize that tuition is not the only barrier to participation. And as we were seeing more and more, with this performing choir model, that we weren’t reaching the full breadth of our community.

Kimberly Doucette [00:31:13]:
We weren’t connecting with some of our most underserved populations. We really looked into how do we make connections across the community, and that’s that’s how our neighborhood choir program was born where we actually take the choir program out into community centers and after school sites in underserved communities so that the choir comes directly to the child. There’s no transportation requirement. There again are no fees. We’re working directly with the populations at the community centers, working with their staff to integrate this into their programming and give the kids at those sites what they need. And then as we realized, you know, that music is music, especially early childhood music, is so inaccessible to folks who don’t have quite substantial means. I mean, it’s very expensive to invest in an early childhood music program. We wanted to give that opportunity to bring music to those younger ages and help foster that musicianship and see what would be possible when we start working with a child at 6 weeks old and then potentially take them through their entire high school career to whether when they get to college or career, and see what that process would be like and how can we provide that to as many children in this area as possible and make their lives and our community better in that process.

Nancy Norbeck [00:32:40]:
So I have two questions. So the the first one is you mentioned the performing choirs and the neighborhood choirs, and I take it that there’s not necessarily a whole lot of crossover between them, or am I completely wrong about that?

Kimberly Doucette [00:32:54]:
So we our goal is that there will be as much crossover as possible, between those programs, but that is continuing to be something that we invest in and build. We started the neighborhood choir program, and really had gotten some wonderful legs in just before COVID with some crossover of bringing kids from those neighborhood choirs into our performing choir programs. But as you can imagine, those community centers, and after care programs all just completely shut down, for a good year, year and a half. So we really lost connection with those, and we’re not able to get back into those programs in the way that we wanted to for quite some time. So we are reestablishing and rebuilding that crossover. We are so excited that, this past concert, the spring concert that we did in April, we had 70 of our neighborhood choir members come and perform alongside our performing choirs at our spring concerts, which is the largest number ever. When we first did that back in was it 2015, Lianna? I can’t remember when we first maybe 2016 or 17.

Lianna Magerr [00:34:08]:
I think it was 2017. We had about 8 kids, 8 neighborhood choir kids at our first concert. Is a super modest number, but we’ve really expanded that reach in the in the year since. Yeah. And if you think it it’s like a funnel. So, you know, our performing choirs are our most advanced ensembles. They do the most performing throughout the region. It is an advanced level of choral singing.

Lianna Magerr [00:34:38]:
And so our other programs are sort of like a funnel into our performing choirs. So not every kid is gonna be a good fit for performing choirs, and that’s okay. They’re still having a really wonderful experience after school at their community center or after school site. They’re learning new things. They’re engaging in a positive activity with their peers. Right? Great. They’re having a good time and they’re learning while they do it. So not every kid is gonna transition, but the idea is we’ve created this funnel.

Lianna Magerr [00:35:07]:
We’re capturing a ton of student engagement with our neighborhood choirs and our other neighborhood based programs. And the idea is eventually over time, the kids who are like, this is my thing. This lights me up. I love this. We’ll join the performing choirs, and we’ve already seen that happen. It’s super exciting. We’ve got some of those kids who’ve kind of crossed over, and they’re now in the entry level ensembles of performing choirs. But those kids who have done that, they’re like, choral singing is my thing.

Lianna Magerr [00:35:41]:
And one of the students, his name is John, his mom talked with me after he decided to audition and and, you know, do it. He decided to to take the chance. And his mom said, I never would have known that this was his passion if it weren’t for the neighborhood choir program. He just he wouldn’t have tried it, and they wouldn’t have known as a family that this was something that he loves. And that was a few years ago, and he’s still a member of our performing choirs to this day. So it is almost like casting a super wide net and making sure that, you know, while we have them, they’re having a good time and they’re learning something while they do. And then, ideally, the kids who love it are gonna get engaged at that higher level.

Nancy Norbeck [00:36:25]:
That makes so much sense to me, and it it’s such a powerful reminder that, you know, I I didn’t have anybody to teach me painting as a kid. You know? So I don’t know if I would have been a kid who was lit up by painting. So it’s it’s that that exposure to all of these things that’s so important. And, you know, I think also for for those of us who are too old for children’s chorus, just the willingness to go out and try new stuff stuff because you just don’t know if you’ve never actually done it. But I I love unsurprisingly, I love stories like that one. And and I’m betting that you end up with kids who go on and major in music and, you know, do more things beyond age 18 too.

Lianna Magerr [00:37:14]:
Oh, yeah. We definitely we we certainly do. But I just I wanna go back to that point of, like, nobody ever taught you how to paint, so maybe you’d be a painter. That is a pervasive Magerr, particularly in low income communities, which is where we do the bulk of our work, partnering with community centers that are strategically placed in low income communities throughout Wilmington. And one of the questions we often get asked is, like, by our community center partners, they’ll say, like, okay. We’ll have kids sign up for the program. And we always come back and say, no. We’re gonna work with every child in this grade range enrolled at your center.

Lianna Magerr [00:37:55]:
And sometimes that gets a little pushback, and we have to talk it out because the community centers are often worried. Oh, if the kids don’t sign up to be there, there might be some, like, behavioral challenges. And that’s fine. We’re used to that. We’ve got really accomplished teachers, great classroom management skills. That’s not gonna be a problem. But we work with everyone because not every kid is gonna love choral singing, but every kid deserves the opportunity to find out if they do. And they don’t often get that.

Lianna Magerr [00:38:25]:
They don’t often have the opportunity in the way that upper middle class kids do to try out a bunch of new things and find their thing. And so we would rather work with everyone across the board and say 10% of them are like, I love this. I love this, and this is my thing. Amazing. The other 90%, they had a great time. They learned something. They tried something new, which is a skill to build up all in itself. But we would rather that every kid have the opportunity to decide for themselves if this is for

Nancy Norbeck [00:39:02]:
them. Amen to that. And the genius of that is that you you know, the kid who might be embarrassed to wanna try it in front of their friends doesn’t have to stick their neck out because you’re pulling in every kid. And I’m thinking in particular, you know, my my my parents are long time choral singers. They got me in my first choir when I was probably about 4, though lord knows if 6 weeks had been available, I’m sure they would have done that. And and my brother was too, and he’s the one who, you know, ever I heard him once singing in the house when he thought no one was there, and that’s the only reason that he was singing. You know? I think that he just felt too much pressure to do it. But he’s one of those revolting people who can pick up an instrument and figure out how to play it in, like, a week.

Nancy Norbeck [00:39:52]:
So it all kind of, in its way, comes out in the wash. But but, you know, he’s also an example of, like, so many boys are like, I can’t go sing because then everybody will, you know, think all of these awful things about me, whatever, you know, the many variables of the awful things are. And you you’re just taking that right out of the equation, which is amazing.

Lianna Magerr [00:40:15]:
Yep. It goes right back to singing is vulnerable. Yeah. And a lot of these boys, upper elementary, middle school boys, they’re also contending with, you know, biological voice changes. And so that’s extra vulnerable just speaking, let alone singing. So there’s a lot to that, and you’re you’re spot on that this structure takes away a a portion of that. You know? It’s we still it still requires a certain level of vulnerability and willingness to try something new. But like I said, that’s a muscle that kids need to learn to build

Kimberly Doucette [00:40:50]:
Mhmm.

Lianna Magerr [00:40:51]:
In and of itself, and that happens over time.

Nancy Norbeck [00:40:54]:
Do the boys that that come in through, you know, the neighborhood program with everybody else, do you think you get more of

Lianna Magerr [00:41:02]:
them who stick around than you would otherwise? So we have a couple who have stuck around, but they’re younger. They’re we like, we caught Kimberly, like kindergarten. Right? The earlier I found in in my experience, the earlier you start with boys, the more success you’ll have in navigating some of those nerves and vulnerabilities. The older they get, the more reluctant they can be in our experience.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:34]:
So do you have trouble finding enough boys for the older choirs so that you have a balance of 4 parts? That’s always our search.

Kimberly Doucette [00:41:47]:
Traditionally, it’s been a mix, actually. So, pre COVID, we had a huge core, cohort of tenors and basses, and we were really blessed with that. And, that was a great time in our tenor based land. I think overall, the high school, enrollment has been down a bit since COVID. And I think that’s really just one of the challenges of, like, our enrollment suffered a bit during that period. We some folks just weren’t comfortable participating in anything, so our numbers went down, and we just don’t quite have our pipeline built back up again. We do have a wonderful cohort of young guys in our youth choir, that I’m confident will repopulate our tenor based ensemble, but the numbers have gone down. I mean, we had nearly 40, I think, in that ensemble pre COVID.

Kimberly Doucette [00:42:43]:
Wow. So it was quite large for us. But this past year, we had 21 tenors and basis, which is still great. Yeah. Still very fortunate. But

Nancy Norbeck [00:42:56]:
we would love to

Kimberly Doucette [00:42:57]:
see those numbers continue to rise.

Nancy Norbeck [00:43:00]:
Sure. Sure. And I I wanna give back a little bit when you talk about, you know, getting kids at 6 weeks. Is that something that is becoming more of a thing, or or did you guys kind of pioneer that? Because that just sort of blows my mind.

Lianna Magerr [00:43:20]:
Early childhood music education is a super established, practice, and there’s a real body of research that supports, the sooner and the more frequently that a child in their earliest years of life is engaged in music making, the better they’re likely to do on a whole host of, like, social emotional factors. But also they’re more likely to have higher literacy rates. There’s so much that’s good for kids about engaging new music making in their earliest years of life. So we start at 6 weeks old. Early childhood music making is not unique to children’s chorus, but what is unique is the model in which we do it, like, so much about WCC. Like Kim mentioned, you have to have exorbitant means almost to make early childhood music making on a consistent and frequent enough basis to make a real impact over time. You have to have I’m gonna say it. You have to have a lot of money, and you have to have a reliable means of transportation, and you also have to have a good amount of time on your hands to make that a reality for you and your child.

Lianna Magerr [00:44:29]:
And, of course, the communities that we are interested in in working with, low income communities, communities of color, and families who are perhaps led by single parent household homes or families who are working shift work. Impossible. Nearly impossible. It requires a level of time, a level of resources, and often transportation that are just not realities for a lot of these families. And so children’s chorus partners with community centers that have day cares and preschools, and we embed early childhood music education into the children’s regular instructional day. And this is in sharp contrast to what is typical in the early childhood music making space, which are mommy and me classes. Those are the most popular ones. And so a parent or guardian has to be with the child at all times.

Lianna Magerr [00:45:27]:
They’re often at inconvenient times, Saturday mornings or, you know, a Tuesday at, like, 11 AM. They’re designed for, you know, stay at home parents to really utilize and enjoy, and they cost money. And so we wanted to offer something in contrast to that existing model. And so partnering with day cares and preschools, embedding this instruction into the children’s regular school day, you no longer as a parent have to register your child. You no longer have to pay for classes. You no longer have to be present yourself, and you’re already taking your child to school every day likely on your way to work. And so the transportation is really convenient. And that is what is the transportation is Lianna convenient.

Lianna Magerr [00:46:10]:
And that is what is unique about the way that we approach music making in the earliest years of life. Again, what is the least burdensome way that we can get music into the lives as as as many kids as possible across Wilmington? How can we do that? And that is one of our answers.

Nancy Norbeck [00:46:31]:
That’s amazing.

Lianna Magerr [00:46:34]:
It’s been a very successful program. Mhmm.

Kimberly Doucette [00:46:37]:
And it is very unique for a children’s chorus, for a community children’s chorus model. I don’t know of any other children’s choirs that go down this young in age. Usually, maybe 4 or 5 is the earliest they begin. But, again, it comes back to the idea of how can we reach as many kids as possible and give them the opportunity that they would not have had otherwise.

Nancy Norbeck [00:47:02]:
Yeah. I mean, it seems like in so many ways, it’s it’s so clever and yet I don’t think clever was your goal. You know? It’s it’s it’s such a fabulous combination of outreach and also building up the kids who are likely to come and join, you know, when they’re 6 or 15 or or whatever, that that it it it seems like it should be obvious now that I’ve heard it. You know? Like, of course, everyone should be doing this because that’s where they’re gonna get their kids from. And yet, clearly, it’s it’s not obvious.

Lianna Magerr [00:47:40]:
I think it comes from years of working, with and in these communities, again, low income communities of color. You learn the ropes relatively quickly. A lot of these families rely on their community centers within their neighborhoods for so much. They’re really institutions and they provide resources, sometimes legal aid, food, after school supervision for students, sometimes during the day supervision for children in the forms of daycares and preschools, senior centers. The list goes on and on and so plugging into the community center, you alleviate a lot of the burden off of families by tapping into an existing resource and supplementing what they’re able to offer in that community. It saves us time and money because we’re not duplicating the legwork of these community centers. They’re already in contact with everybody in that neighborhood. They already are doing the publicity and the marketing.

Lianna Magerr [00:48:46]:
They already have the administrative staff to support their programs. They’re already working with government institutions to provide services. We don’t have to duplicate any of that work, but we can reach the same population. And we can provide a supplemental service that also benefits the community center because now they say that they offer music twice a week to all of the children enrolled, and they have this great supplemental partnership that lasts for years. We’ve been with some of our community center partners for, you know, 5, 6, 7 years now. So it benefits everyone. It benefits the neighborhood. It benefits the community center.

Lianna Magerr [00:49:25]:
It benefits Children’s Chorus, but it’s just a way to leverage those partnerships to serve everyone.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:33]:
Yeah. Very clever. Very clever.

Lianna Magerr [00:49:40]:
Like I said, you’ll learn the ropes pretty bad.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:44]:
So the the obvious question to me seems to be, how do you pay for all of this? I mean, you mentioned that as an independent organization, your budget is 5 times what it used to be. So, obviously, you’ve got people supporting you, but that’s still an impressive number and as even more so when you consider everything that you’re doing that’s not just here’s our chorus and our rehearsal one night a week and our concert every Christmas and spring. You know?

Lianna Magerr [00:50:16]:
Yeah. Right.

Kimberly Doucette [00:50:16]:
And like you mentioned, it’s it is 100% tuition free. All of these programs would cost 1,000 of dollars for of tuition for families in the rest of the world. But, really, it has been incredible work that Lianna has done, to do our fundraising, but it really it’s a challenge. Right? It’s it this there are real costs that are involved, with this programming, and they are usually passed on to the consumer in the rest of the world, but not in the Wilmington Children’s Chorus.

Lianna Magerr [00:50:54]:
Yeah. There are days when I miss when our budget was a $100,000. I will say that. Like, oh, that was so much easier. I don’t miss what my salary was back then, but I do miss that. Yeah. So, Kim said it perfectly. We don’t pass on the cost of operating our programs to kids and families.

Lianna Magerr [00:51:15]:
This is for a few reasons. Most of the families that we work with are low to moderate income households. That’s 84%. So we don’t wanna place an undue burden on these families who just want to provide exceptional music experiences for their kids. Right? And we also have a trust based sort of funding model with the remainder of our families. So if you can afford to pay, but, of course, we don’t charge. A lot of those families contribute through donations, and they give quite generously to support the Wilmington Children’s Chorus, not just because their child is in it, but also because they see and they recognize the value of what we offer our entire community. And I should also mention that, you know, the 86% of our families who who are low to moderate income, they also donate.

Lianna Magerr [00:52:09]:
So folks give what they can to support the Wilmington Children’s Chorus because they love it, because they’ve recognized the value that it has in Wilmington, and because they wanna see it continue and grow. And so a lot of our families donate to support. Most of our families donate to support. We also get funding from, you know, some corporate sponsorships and event proceeds, things like that, and grants from charitable foundations. That is the largest percentage of our budget. About 50% comes from, area foundations and philanthropic gifts. And I guess it just depends on how spicy I wanna get on this podcast and, you know, who I wanna throw under the bus. No.

Lianna Magerr [00:52:57]:
I’m just kidding. But the the tricky part about that is that the financial wins shift on a dime.

Kimberly Doucette [00:53:07]:
Mhmm.

Lianna Magerr [00:53:08]:
With these large foundations, these corporations, these institutions, they are they’re in business to do good and protect their Doucette, and one of those gets priority. Right? And so when things are good, they’re great, and they’re in business to do good. And when things shift, they’re in business protecting their assets. And to a certain extent, that makes sense because if they’re not in business to protect their assets, then there will be no assets in the future

Nancy Norbeck [00:53:41]:
Right.

Lianna Magerr [00:53:42]:
To support all of the good that needs to be done in our community. But, like, for example, from March to now, the financial winds have completely shifted, at least in our community. And we’re hearing this from all other arts organizations and and the many nonprofits that we work with and partner with. It can happen that quickly in under 3 months. Our entire fiscal landscape has kind of shifted. And now folks are getting nervous, and they’re starting to tighten their purse strings. And so what children’s chorus has always done and continues to do is, you know, build the ship for a bad year so that you can weather that when it comes, and and manage that sort of changing fiscal landscape accordingly. So that’s always been our model that continues to be our model.

Lianna Magerr [00:54:34]:
But, yeah, in terms of how we fund it, lots of different ways. And we rely on the, the goodwill, and the and sort of the trust and the support of our entire community. And that’s worked really well for us over the years.

Nancy Norbeck [00:54:56]:
Wow. But that also also kind of seems obvious to me now that you’ve said it because you’re in so many parts of the community. So so there’s more of an incentive for people to come together to keep you guys afloat.

Lianna Magerr [00:55:10]:
Yeah. So many folks Lianna just love the work of the Children’s Chorus. And so many folks are invested in seeing the work that we’re doing, particularly in low income communities in collaboration with, you know, community centers and day cares, preschools, after school sites, they recognize the value that that adds to our city, and they want to see it continue. And so we’re able to hit a lot of different marks for people. So, like, yes, we are an arts organization and we are providing excellent music education. And so that is one community of donors and philanthropic supporters. Right? But we’re also supporting after school sites and out of school time activities for kids. And so that is a whole area of philanthropic donors and supporters.

Lianna Magerr [00:56:03]:
And we’re also in daycares and preschools, and so we’re hitting that early childhood piece. Again, because access and consistent exposure to early childhood music making is so good for little baby brains and those developing minds and their literacy rates later on and their physical health and their mental health. We’re hitting the early childhood piece. So we’re we’re operating in a few different fundraising spheres, and all of them are contributing to our financial success in some way.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:37]:
I mean, that just sounds smart on top of everything else. You know? They always say you shouldn’t invest everything in the same place, so it makes sense that you shouldn’t be pulling from the same sources to fund a project too.

Lianna Magerr [00:56:53]:
We try to be financially savvy.

Kimberly Doucette [00:56:56]:
Yeah. And Lianna mentioned, you know, that we have a lot of families who contribute to the Wilmington Children’s Chorus from our member base, but we also have a lot of individual donors from throughout the community, who just value what we do here. And, you know, anyone anywhere can contribute to the Wilmington Children’s Chorus. Just visit our website. So if anybody was inspired.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:21]:
Yeah. Hint. Hint.

Lianna Magerr [00:57:22]:
Thank you for the plug, Kim.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:27]:
I I think there’s there is so you guys are just, like, a a living argument for why the arts make such a vital difference for kids and for a community. And, you know, obviously, it’s it’s this widespread impact in so many different ways, and I think that also must make it a really easy yes for people.

Lianna Magerr [00:57:57]:
From your lips, I’m you’d be surprised.

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:03]:
Oh, I’m sure. But at the same time, you can point to all of these things and and all of these kids whose lives are better than they would have been otherwise. So, you know, it must make advertising or I guess you don’t really advertise for fundraising, but, you know, still, it it must make the case much easier to make.

Lianna Magerr [00:58:26]:
We have exceptionally run programs. You know, Kim and I, as a leadership team, I think we have a good reputation in the community, which is honestly, like, 60% of fundraising. People give to leaders. They don’t really give to organizations. That’s the reality, and that helps a lot. And I think children’s course has a reputation for being a really well run savvy, responsive organization that does good work in the community. And so we’re we just wanna maintain that. And I think the reason we’ve had so much success is because we do what’s best for kids.

Lianna Magerr [00:59:02]:
We put kids and their education first. And the results that follow that are going to be exceptional because they center the child and they center the family and they center what our community needs. I think sometimes people try to put the cart before the horse in that way, and they’re they’re, like, chasing good results. But what you really need to do is just prioritize what’s best for kids and what’s best for their education, and and that’s where excellence follows.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:31]:
Boy, that sounds like a fabulous slogan right there. I think you should go on a bumper sticker for arts education. It’s that’s fantastic. Well, is there is there anything you either of you would say to someone who’s listening to this episode and thinks, wow. I wanna do something like this where I live.

Lianna Magerr [00:59:55]:
I mean, I think, really,

Kimberly Doucette [00:59:56]:
the key is is to learn about your community and to to see what is missing and what you can provide that is different from what exists. And, you know, I think that’s really the process that we’ve been in with the Wilmington Children’s Chorus is delving into our community, and and it’s interesting because none of us grew up in Wilmington. Lianna Phil or I, we now have a program coordinator who grew up in Wilmington and knows this community inside out. But, you know, Lianna, Phil, and I have thrown ourselves into the Wilmington community in very powerful ways. And we really we love where we live, and we want to make it better, and we want to enrich the lives of the people here. So that’s really the key is, you know, what does your community need, and how can you help? What what skills do you have?

Lianna Magerr [01:00:52]:
Sorry, Kim. For sure. No. Absolutely. Yeah. Check your ego at the door.

Kimberly Doucette [01:00:58]:
You may think you have an idea of how you can help, but you have a lot to learn. Mhmm. And that’s what’s going to help you continue to build something. Just that idea of always always listening, always being ready to learn, always waiting, to hear from others about what they need and how you can help, not just trying to force your goal on others.

Lianna Magerr [01:01:31]:
It’s a very humbling experience to build something with your own hands and then have someone tell you, I don’t like it, and I don’t want it. Trust me. We’ve all been there. It’s mumbling. And so check your ego and be ready to respond to that. You know? It’s just because you’ve built it doesn’t mean that people want it. Start with what the people want.

Kimberly Doucette [01:01:56]:
Mhmm. And I think that’s one of the really cool things about the Wilmington children’s course. I feel like that collaborative spirit is something that is really built into our organization. We collaborate with so many partners in our community, and have relationships all across Wilmington, but we also have a very collaborative spirit as a team here. We have a very diverse staff. So while we’ve been talking a lot about Lianna, Phil, and myself, we do have 3 other staff members, who have brought so much to this team approach, and that collaborating and how how can they help us move forward to create the best possible experience for our kids? So it really is this web of connections in our own organization and out into the community that creates this very special thing that is the Wilmington Children’s Cross.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:53]:
That’s how it sounds to me. Kind of like a big spider web that that covers everything, you know, in in little bits here and there. It’s amazing.

Kimberly Doucette [01:03:03]:
Mhmm. Yeah. And at the core of that are our kids and our families.

Nancy Norbeck [01:03:09]:
A lot of really lucky kids and families from the sound of it.

Kimberly Doucette [01:03:14]:
Well, we are we are lucky to work with them too. We have had so many mountain top moments with them.

Nancy Norbeck [01:03:20]:
Oh, I bet. I bet. Is there a favorite you can tell us about really quickly?

Lianna Magerr [01:03:28]:
Oh. Oh gosh. I have, like, a million, but the one I always go to is, I used to teach at our neighborhood choirs, and we had a a boy. I I guess I won’t say his name. But he was, like, an older elementary school boy, and I would always start class with the check-in of, like, you know, show me a thumbs up if you had a good day, in the middle if you had a medium day, and a thumbs down if you had a, you know, just a a crappy day. And this kid, he came in every single class. He was like, I had a bad day. And I would be like, why’d you have a bad day? And he was I got into a fight.

Lianna Magerr [01:04:03]:
And I got sent to the principal’s office. It was every time. And we would always have the same conversation of, like, you know, you’re feeling frustrated instead of using your hands. Let’s use our words. Let’s practice. What are we gonna say next time we’re frustrated? We had the same conversation every week for, like, 5 years. And he aged out of the program, and he was always a kid who was like, I’m here for now. I’m not here.

Lianna Magerr [01:04:28]:
This is choral singing, not my thing. You know? We got him to a good place where he was participating, and sometimes that’s the win. Teachers know sometimes the win is you’re participating or you’re not disrupting, and you’re gonna take it. And he aged out, and I was like, I’m never gonna see that kid again. And 1 the next year, I was waiting in the classroom before the other kids came, and he’d aged out of the program. He was no longer coming. He was in middle school now. And I was sitting in the chair that I would always sit in, and he walked by the door, and I saw him.

Lianna Magerr [01:05:05]:
And I was like, oh. And I just saw him backtrack. And he came in, and he sat down right in front of me. And he was like, miss Lianna, I had a bad day. I got into a fight. And we were right back where we’d always been, but I will never forget that moment because he was not into singing. But he knew that the classroom was a safe space.

Nancy Norbeck [01:05:31]:
Yeah.

Lianna Magerr [01:05:32]:
And he knew that he could come to me and tell me about his day and that I would not judge him and that I would remind him, you’re a good kid. You know? I believe in you. I believe that next time you’re not gonna get into a fight. I was always wrong. But, like, but, you know, it was like that moment of this transcends music, choir, this classroom. This is about he feels safe with me and in this space, and he came back. And I do not know where he is now. Like, this is not a a miracle story of, like, and then he decided he loves singing.

Lianna Magerr [01:06:12]:
No. I do not know where he is now. He has graduated from high school at this point, I hope, but I have to believe that he is somewhere and he remembers that he had a teacher who believed in him and who told him he was a good kid. And so, like, sometimes that’s all you have is your personal belief that, like, somewhere out there, that kid remembers that he is good. And if that’s all that I have when I go to sleep at night, that’s enough.

Nancy Norbeck [01:06:43]:
Well, and sometimes that’s all you have, but sometimes that’s also all they need Yeah. Which is so huge. Love it.

Kimberly Doucette [01:06:52]:
Hush. And that’s a wonderful story and such a personal one. And, you know, there have been so many incredible performance experiences with the Wilmington Children’s Chorus, but I I think I’m gonna have to pick our 20th anniversary concert, which was also the first normal concert kind of post COVID that we had, since because that was in 2022, spring of 2022. And even in the winter time of 2021, we were still distanced by 8 feet and and Magerr, and things were almost back to normal for our spring 2022 concert for our 20th anniversary. Unfortunately, we did have to mask, because the COVID rates had gone up, just before our Doucette. So we did put the masks back on, but just that opportunity to be all on stage together, a little bit closer together, and we we featured music, highlights of the past 20 years, on that concert. And we also did a new piece called Untraveled Worlds by Paul Halley. It was a piece that was new to us, and the text was just perfect for the moment.

Kimberly Doucette [01:08:03]:
It was, Tennyson’s Ulysses, and it has such this great quote that was so perfect for, like, coming out of COVID. And though much is taken, much abides. And though we are not now that strength, which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. And I think that kind of spirit of the Wilmington Children’s Chorus is that like there are so many things in life that challenge us that really can make us feel like we’ve lost some strength or we’ve lost something. But we are here, and we are making that difference. And we are we have that will to make a change in our community as a community of singers. And together, we are stronger than what we would be individually.

Kimberly Doucette [01:09:12]:
And I think that idea continues to inspire me, even though we continue to come up against lots of challenges. I think that’s something that you learned in life that that you were never gonna be without challenge. But how you approach those with creativity, and with that connection with each other, that’s what’s important, and that’s how we make a difference.

Nancy Norbeck [01:09:38]:
Absolutely. Well, I am overwhelmed by everything that you do, honestly, and and I love that you have taken this comprehensive approach and are doing so many things. And I think that it will yield fruit in ways that you probably won’t even know a lot of. But but the influence and the effect will be out there, and and I think that that alone is a worthwhile thing to do. The fact that you get to make music on top of it is just kind of the bonus almost. But I hope that you Magerr to keep doing this despite shifting financial wins and, you know, all of all of those factors for a good long time to come, and I hope that people who are listening will click on a link that I’m sure you’re gonna give me that I can throw into show notes so that people can do that really easily and send you a couple bucks to help keep you going because I think this is fabulous. Well done.

Lianna Magerr [01:10:38]:
Oh, thanks, Nancy. We’ll absolutely send you the link.

Nancy Norbeck [01:10:43]:
I I really enjoyed this conversation. This is very different than anything I had expected because of all the the range of everything you’re doing, but it’s really inspiring. And I hope that, you know, other people will come and talk to you about what you’ve done and how you do it too and take it elsewhere because we need more things like this.

Kimberly Doucette [01:11:03]:
Well, thank you so much, Nancy. And, you know, we’re in Wilmington, Delaware, which maybe not a lot of people know about, but it is not that far from Philadelphia, not far from DC or New York. So we hope people come and visit.

Nancy Norbeck [01:11:18]:
That’s our show for this week. Thanks so much to Lianna Magerr and Kimberly Doucette for joining me and to you for listening. Please leave a review for this episode. There’s a link in your podcast app, so it’s really easy and will only take a minute. If you enjoyed our conversation, I hope you’ll share it with a friend. Thanks so much. If this episode resonated with you, or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now, join me at the spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage. It’s free and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners.

Nancy Norbeck [01:11:56]:
The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.