Art and Commerce with Domenic Sciortino

Domenic Sciortino is a creative powerhouse. By day, he’s a barber. Much of the rest of the time, he’s an artist, musician, and now, a talent buyer for a local entertainment venue in Pennsylvania. Dom was one of my first guests on the podcast, and I’m thrilled to have him back to talk about the intersection of art and commerce, with stops at creative courage (specifically, the courage to fail in and with a crowd), why you should always aim to please yourself first with your creative work (even if you want to sell it), the effects of ignoring our creative call, and just what happens behind the scenes of the performing arts—especially on the money side.

00:00 Introduction

1:04 Creating art in various forms, sometimes successful.

08:29 Billy Joel forgets lyrics, crowd sings instead.

11:23 Sudden insight into creative life force experience.

16:42 Passion leads to happiness and less spending.

24:28 Robots creating art due to cheaper labor.

31:19 Promo highlights importance of arts education.

37:08 Artists deserve better pay and more transparency.

40:05 National touring artist fees are usually non-negotiable.

43:22 Warner pushed Americana band, Tweedy went ambient.

50:27 Anticipating snow, stocking up on essentials.

53:56 Existence and purpose: the struggle is worthwhile.

59:26 Don’t judge yourself by professional standards.

If you missed Domenic’s first episode, check it out!

Connect with me and fellow creatives on Substack.

Please leave a review for this episode and in it, tell us about your experience with art and commerce.

If you enjoyed our conversation, I hope you’ll share it with a friend.

Want more? Here are some handy playlists with all my previous interviews with guests in music and visual arts.

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Transcript

Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. My guest this week, Domenic Sciortino, is a creative powerhouse. By day, he’s a barber. Much of the rest of the time, he’s an artist, musician, and now a talent buyer for a local entertainment venue in Pennsylvania.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:32]:
Dom was one of my first guests on the podcast, and I’m thrilled to have him back to talk about the intersection of art and commerce with stops at creative courage, specifically the courage to fail in and with a crowd, why you should always aim to please yourself first with your creative work even if you want to sell it, the effects of ignoring our creative call, and just what happens behind the scenes of the performing arts, especially on the money side. Here’s my conversation with Domenic Shortino. Domenic, welcome back to Follow Your Curiosity.

Domenic Sciortino [00:01:05]:
Well, thank you for having me again. I appreciate it, Nancy.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:08]:
Always. We won’t go through all of the were you a creative kids stuff since this is a return visit, and anyone who has not heard your first episode should go back and listen to it because it’s awesome. Still one of one of the first that I did and still one of my favorites. So

Domenic Sciortino [00:01:27]:
Aw, wonderful. Thank you, Nancy.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:29]:
Well, you are such an amazing advocate for the arts, and and it shows so much in that episode. And so I’m I’m really curious to hear what the heck you’ve been up to because I know you said you have a lot to say about art and commerce.

Domenic Sciortino [00:01:45]:
Oh, there you go. Yeah. We could get into that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:47]:
Yeah.

Domenic Sciortino [00:01:48]:
I just I create art and, in a lot of different ways And, you know, whether it’s good or not is subjective, I guess. And but the important thing is is we should all be doing it. So we should be creating something. So I tend to, put my fingers in a lot to see what sticks. And unfortunately, or fortunately, a lot of it is sticking. So I find myself doing a lot of things and it’s very fulfilling. So, music, of course. I’m still in a Beastie Boys tribute, and we play a handful of times a year because I’m just, we could do a whole podcast on the Beastie Boys if you ever wanna do that.

Domenic Sciortino [00:02:28]:
But, I also kinda rolled out doing acoustic stuff, just me and my guitar. I did it online, and now I’m taking it public again. And it’s it’s kind of a really unique thing. I just take requests. And, some of them I know and, that I’ve played before, but others, if I know how it goes, the rule is I have to pull it up on my computer and try to play it, pull the chords up. And that’s just kind of a without a net, a lot of fun. And I’m adding a new piece to that. I’m doing it next month at a local venue, and, we’re making it karaoke as well.

Domenic Sciortino [00:03:07]:
So not only can you request the song, you could come up and sing it with me, and we could all just fail miserably or nail it or both depending on what part of the song we’re in. And then in my little bit of spare time beyond that, I’ve really discovered, pen and watercolor ink again. I actually made my wife 2 paintings for her birthday, which is the first completed works paint wise that I’ve done in, oh my gosh, 30 years probably.

Nancy Norbeck [00:03:34]:
Wow.

Domenic Sciortino [00:03:34]:
So that was very fulfilling. Yeah. Just pen and watercolor. 1 was of our 3 cats and one was for the of the tree of life, and it was fun. Cool. It was so fun, you know, to frame it and be like, oh, I created something else.

Nancy Norbeck [00:03:50]:
Yeah.

Domenic Sciortino [00:03:51]:
And Yeah. You know, it’s for her, they will hang in our home, but, obviously, I’m not looking to go beyond that. But, you know, kinda dovetailing on what we’re gonna talk about today. It’s it’s personal and, you know, not for sale, and yet it’s one of the most fulfilling things I’ve done in the last 6 months, you know, that and just creating, creating, creating.

Nancy Norbeck [00:04:17]:
Yeah. Well and can we talk for a second about the amount of sheer courage that it takes to say, if if I don’t know this song and I can find it on my computer, I’m gonna sit here and try to play it for you because you asked for it in front of people.

Domenic Sciortino [00:04:32]:
Thank you so much. That’s kind of the whole point of it is, it’s when when you make an ass of yourself, you kinda level the playing field because everybody in the audience is just like, oh, he messed up. You know? I can mess up too. And when you get everybody in on that act rather than a very structured, you know, the lights, the fog machine, you know, everything is just it’s still art, but it’s it’s very structured. It’s like a play. It’s, you know, concerts are just, you know, very, this is gonna happen and this is gonna happen. The spontaneity is really where a lot of really great things get created. You know,

Nancy Norbeck [00:05:17]:
you may have just explained why I’ve always liked rehearsals better than performance.

Domenic Sciortino [00:05:23]:
Oh, wow. Interesting. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:05:25]:
I’ve never been able to put my finger on it before, but maybe that’s it. Because the performance is like, this is it, and it has to be good. Yeah. It has to be perfect, and there are people who paid to come and hear you and, you know, whatever. But the rehearsal, anything can happen.

Domenic Sciortino [00:05:40]:
Absolutely. And, yeah, that’s where the magic happens. Right? Because Yeah. Things can change too. Like, you know, if the artist is there and says, I like this line better. Why don’t you say it like that? You know? Yeah. Well and that’s just true in life that it’s what they always say. You know? It’s not the destination.

Domenic Sciortino [00:05:57]:
It’s the journey. But Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s it’s the most fun I have performing is doing these live requests because I don’t know. Yeah. And it was terrifying. I just did it online, which is so easy because you don’t hear the applause, you don’t hear the you know? But when I started to do it out, you know, there’s the big, is this gonna work? And it always does because, the people feel like they’re a part of it. They’re helping create this thing, as opposed to just observers.

Nancy Norbeck [00:06:28]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, my, I think it was my mom When I first had to do, like, piano recital kind of stuff, which scared the crap of me as a kid, I remember her telling me 2 things. The first was keep going if you make a mistake because nobody is sitting there with a copy of the score keeping track. As I’m older, I find that a little bit harder to believe because, you know,

Domenic Sciortino [00:06:55]:
people people

Nancy Norbeck [00:06:56]:
know pieces of music.

Domenic Sciortino [00:06:58]:
You know? Right. Exactly.

Nancy Norbeck [00:06:59]:
But if you keep going, then at least you’re not just falling apart when it happens, and it happens in

Domenic Sciortino [00:07:06]:
every day. Absolutely.

Nancy Norbeck [00:07:07]:
But if it if it wasn’t her, I don’t know who it was who who said, you know, like, your audience is on your side.

Domenic Sciortino [00:07:15]:
You need

Nancy Norbeck [00:07:15]:
to get up, like, with all the stage fright and everything, and you’re terrified because you’re scared to death that you’re gonna screw up in front of these people, and they’re gonna think terrible things about you. But the fact is, if you stop and think about it, you know, anytime that you’ve been in an audience, did you ever want that person to fall flat on their face? You never want that person to fall flat on your face. You want them

Domenic Sciortino [00:07:41]:
There are some people that come with a chip on their shoulder, but we’re not gonna focus on that 5 to 10%.

Nancy Norbeck [00:07:48]:
90 some percent of people came to hear you do something awesome. They want you to succeed. And so, like, if they’re on your side, then it makes sense to me that if you have the guts to get up there and say, I don’t know this. I have no idea if I can play it, but I’ll try.

Domenic Sciortino [00:08:04]:
Yeah. Then, you

Nancy Norbeck [00:08:06]:
know, when you mentioned, like, the karaoke thing and whatever, I can totally see where you would end up with an entire room that suddenly is just like, yeah, man. We’re all gonna sing, and we’re gonna get up and dance, and we’re gonna whatever because this is the Domenic. And we’re celebrating the fact that we don’t have to be perfect, and and let’s just go, which just feels amazing to me just imagining it in my head.

Domenic Sciortino [00:08:29]:
There’s a great clip you can go and look up of Billy Joel when he started his Madison Square Garden residency. I don’t know how far he was into it, but, I know he used to be a heavy drinker and he’s cleaned himself up, but when he was still in that drinking phase, he, he does We Didn’t Start the Fire, which, of course, the whole crowd is waiting for in Madison Square Garden, and he forgets the words. And the entire audience picks him up, and he just steps away he just steps away from the mic and lets him do it. And everybody you know? And these people paid 200 hours to see this, and they didn’t care. They’re like, oh, we got you.

Nancy Norbeck [00:09:05]:
You know? Yeah. Because now it’s their moment too. Absolutely.

Domenic Sciortino [00:09:09]:
Yeah. It’s absolutely.

Nancy Norbeck [00:09:11]:
They’re the show now. It’s it’s all a joint effort. I think we forget how much art and performance in particular, but, you know, even if you’re just going to a museum and looking at a piece of art, you’re part of what’s going on there. You know, your interpretation, your reaction is part of the art. It’s not a static thing. We’re all part of whatever we’re partaking of.

Domenic Sciortino [00:09:36]:
I just, changing course a little bit. Like, I’ve been listening to a lot of Alan Watts. I don’t know if you’re familiar with him. Yeah. Yeah. So, they put his lectures online, and he’s he’s a fascinating character. But, you know, and I just actually posted this to my social media yesterday because it’s such a beautiful thing from a talk he gave from the sixties where he says, you know, the entire world as it is would not exist without you in it, and you would not exist as you are without the entire world. You know, it’s all connected.

Domenic Sciortino [00:10:06]:
So you take one piece out and the whole house of cards falls and becomes a different thing. So, absolutely, when you’re observing something, when you’re listening, when you’re singing along in your car, Scientifically, you can’t prove that you’re, you know, contributing anything, but it’s true. Like, it’s it’s all part of that. Same John Fraschini from the Red Hot Chili Peppers, he deflects any praise about his playing and songwriting. He says, I’m just tapping into a source we all have access to. You know? I’m just a vessel, and that’s that’s so beautiful to me. You know? Yeah. That to acknowledge that there’s just this source of creation.

Domenic Sciortino [00:10:46]:
I you can’t deny it even if you’re not spiritual. You know, there’s it’s inexplicable how things work like that, how you create things.

Nancy Norbeck [00:10:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and there was I’ve talked about this a couple of times, but not a whole lot. There there was a moment about it was like the fall of 2020, I think. And I I did a guided meditation one morning, and and it was normally I have trouble focusing even on a guided meditation. Right? Like, I am not a natural meditator or anything like that.

Domenic Sciortino [00:11:22]:
Yep.

Nancy Norbeck [00:11:23]:
But that morning, I don’t know what was different. And I have never been able to replicate it, which is annoying, but, hey, maybe I’ll get lucky sometime. But I just Right. Suddenly had this vision of how there’s this creative life force, and each of us has a spark of it. And that every time we engage with it, we feel most alive because we are most in touch with that overall creative life force that, you know, makes the grass grow and the birds sing and whatever. And that that’s what really makes us feel most alive. And it was one of those things where I was so glad that I had time afterwards to sit down. I spent, like, half an hour writing this thing down, and I’m so glad I did because, you know, what I just told you is a tiny piece of it, but that’s, like, what I remember when I haven’t reread it recently.

Nancy Norbeck [00:12:20]:
But it was just like, woah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense to me.

Domenic Sciortino [00:12:25]:
You know?

Nancy Norbeck [00:12:25]:
It’s kinda like that Robin Williams quote about you only have one little spark of madness. Yeah. It’s the same thing. Right?

Domenic Sciortino [00:12:32]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:12:32]:
We are each a part of this bigger thing. And that’s why when we do our thing, we don’t necessarily know we’re connecting to that thing, but but that’s what we’re doing, and that’s why it lights us up and makes us feel alive.

Domenic Sciortino [00:12:49]:
It’s so true because, I think it’s Edward Muir, m u I r. Do you know that name? He’s a scientist. We go down to Chincoteague Island and at the visitor center, they have a big quote on his wall. It’s like, when you try to pluck something out of the universe, you find it inexplicably inexplicably connected to everything else. And, you know, it all works together somehow. And, when we do not and I’m not saying anybody should, you know, make music, make art you you must create in some way to tap into that. And if you don’t, I truly believe you feel alienated. You feel alienated from that source if you’re not connected, and it doesn’t have to be a specific religion.

Domenic Sciortino [00:13:40]:
But if you feel alienated, what are you gonna be like? You’re gonna be hostile. Right? You’re not gonna be happy. I think it’s so important. You know, the the biggest lie we’ve been told is that we’re not connected to everything and and so much as even the dialogue we use is, like, we conquer nature. Right?

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:00]:
Right. Right.

Domenic Sciortino [00:14:01]:
Why are we conquering something that we’re a part of? You know what I mean?

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:05]:
And that we need.

Domenic Sciortino [00:14:07]:
Yes. And so I think it’s so important. Meditation, just listening to birds. There’s there’s a book I saw in a in a, greenhouse store that somebody actually took songbirds, recorded their singing, and then wrote it out musically. And it’s Wow. I didn’t I should have bought it. I I gotta go back and buy it. But, it’s if you’re a musician, you look at it.

Domenic Sciortino [00:14:32]:
You’re like, what the hell is going on here? Like, you couldn’t play it. You know what I mean? And this bird just effortly, you know, does that. And it’s a song. It’s beautiful. Like, yeah, there’s I I just yeah. Mystical. I just love it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. There’s a definite mystical spiritual side to creativity, and there’s also you know, like, what you were saying, I think I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. In fact, I just wrote a whole thing about lapsed creativity because, you know, that’s that’s what happens. Like, we get into this state where we’re like, oh, you know, I always wanted to go audition for a play, or I always wanted to just pick up a cheap watercolor set and play with it. Uh-huh. Like, I did when I was a kid or or whatever. But, you know, like, we tend to indulge more of that stuff when we’re young before you have the job and the family and all of that stuff, or you have the professor who tells you, man, you’re never gonna be a good watercolor artist.

Nancy Norbeck [00:15:29]:
Just pack it up at home. You know? Or the parents who who are like, you know, you can’t do that. You need to, like, you know, be a lawyer or, you know, a a plumber or something that makes money. And and then you spend your whole day doing the thing that makes you the money, and you come home and you’re completely drained, and you have no energy to do anything beyond feed yourself and your kids and put everybody to bed. Right? And over time, like you say, you know, you you lose touch with this really important part of yourself, and it takes a toll. You may not realize what it is that’s making you feel disconnected or, you know, anxious or whatever it is. But odds are really good if you haven’t connected with your creative side recently. That’s part of it at the very least.

Nancy Norbeck [00:16:24]:
And the irony that people don’t realize too is that even if you just do a couple minutes of something creative every day, it’s enough to counteract that, and you end up with more energy because you feel so much better about yourself and the fact that you’ve done something and that you’re reconnecting with that part.

Domenic Sciortino [00:16:42]:
Boom. So I see where you’re going here with the whole commerce thing. But it’s so true because they you know, there’s this cliche, do what you love and the money will follow, which is, you know, we don’t wanna get into, capitalism and health care and all that. Yes. But there’s there’s so much truth in that statement because I found if you’re truly doing what you love and you’re you’re you’re happy, you actually need less money because a lot of that money you’re spending is on things that are trying to make you happy. You know what I mean? And they don’t, you know, that empty materialism. But if you are so driven doing, what you love, you forget about those new shoes. You forget about that new car and you just like, I’m really happy with what I have because I’m doing what there’s so much truth to that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:17:33]:
Yeah. You’re not trying to fill that empty space inside you with things that can’t fill it because you’re doing the thing that fills it. Right. Exactly. And and I mean, I’ve heard it said, you know, before, like, creativity is not therapy, but boy, is it therapeutic.

Domenic Sciortino [00:17:50]:
Oh, yeah. Creativity is not therapy. Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. A lot of it is right. It is therapeutic. Yeah. Just, just writing down thoughts is, you know, you’re creating.

Domenic Sciortino [00:18:03]:
Yep. Absolutely.

Nancy Norbeck [00:18:04]:
Even if you never share it with anybody.

Domenic Sciortino [00:18:07]:
That’s absolutely right.

Nancy Norbeck [00:18:08]:
If you never make a dime for it, if you end up with a stash of random watercolor pages tucked away in the back of your closet, it’s still better than not doing it because you’re doing the thing you love doing.

Domenic Sciortino [00:18:19]:
Absolutely. Yeah. But the surprising thing is when you do so show, you know, people things and you get that praise and sometimes they were like, I would pay for that. Right. You know what I mean? Right. And, you talk about overcoming that stage fright, that fear, it’s it’s yourself telling you lies that Yeah. This does not belong. Nobody needs this.

Domenic Sciortino [00:18:44]:
Yeah. No. You need it. Right. But somebody else might too. Like, you know?

Nancy Norbeck [00:18:48]:
Yeah. But and you know what’s funny though is when I say that whatever you create, you need to create for yourself first. You know, you shouldn’t be creating it saying, you know, oh, I need to buy a new car. So I’m gonna create something that’s gonna make me enough money to buy a new car. Right? Because as soon as you do that, you lose touch with that part of yourself that’s so important. And and I said that online a couple years ago, and somebody, like, came down on me and would not stop saying that, like, that, you know, how dare I say that you shouldn’t make any money from your art and what if you need to pay your rent and and, yeah, I mean, and it just went off. I’m like, no. No.

Nancy Norbeck [00:19:30]:
I’m not saying don’t sell your art. What I’m saying is, if you create what you need to create that makes you happy, your odds of making something that other people are gonna wanna buy are so much higher because you’ve made something that’s authentic. You haven’t tried to please the, you know, proverbial focus group that always ruins the movie that should have been better. Right?

Domenic Sciortino [00:19:58]:
Because, oh,

Nancy Norbeck [00:19:59]:
the focus group didn’t like the ending, so we changed the ending, and, you know, now everybody hates the movie. It’s it’s the same thing. Right? If you make your own strange little troll figures that, you know, like, I probably would think were weird, but I I I knew somebody who was, like, really into these things. And I was like, okay. This person who makes these things is making something that I don’t understand, but they’re not for me. Right? They’re for her, and then all these other people who like that kind of stuff, they’re for them too. Your stuff doesn’t have to be for everybody. It doesn’t have to, you know, please everybody.

Nancy Norbeck [00:20:38]:
You’re never going to find something that has an audience of 100% of the population ever.

Domenic Sciortino [00:20:44]:
No. No.

Nancy Norbeck [00:20:45]:
Never.

Domenic Sciortino [00:20:45]:
But exactly. I love it. Yeah. It’s going into the arts is crazy because of that commerce piece. Like we like we like we were saying. Be then that’s because, in my opinion, art was never meant to be commerce. It’s a whole different animal. You know? So however, yeah, sometimes you do have to say, I do need to make money.

Domenic Sciortino [00:21:16]:
And people you talk about bringing the audience in. You know, the people will pay for it because they know you need money to do that stuff. And that’s that’s really a beautiful thing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:26]:
Yeah. I mean, in that sense, payment is

Domenic Sciortino [00:21:28]:
That’s and that’s why that’s why grants are so important. You know? You know, Cormac McCarthy, blood Meridian, I just read it recently for the first time, which is just a horrifying book, but every sentence was like a poem. Mhmm. And he really studied I don’t know if you know anything about the book. It’s brutal. It’s about, Americans and native Americans fighting in the border at civil war. And, he was an auto Domenic, like even after his first couple novels, that’s what he did. But when he wrote his border trilogy, which was all the pretty horses, I don’t remember all the books where it was this era and he studied it.

Domenic Sciortino [00:22:12]:
He received a grant and he worked on these books for 10 years and that changed everything when it freed him up to create that. And he became probably the most revered American author in recent memory.

Nancy Norbeck [00:22:24]:
Mhmm.

Domenic Sciortino [00:22:25]:
You know, of our generation. So, yeah, when when the government can step up and say, we’re gonna give you this money to create, it’s such a beautiful thing. Oh, yeah. You know, to to lessen that burden on somebody who really has a vision and Yeah. Is not necessarily accomplished. You know? Does not, paint by numbers, the greatest artist, but just has this vision that drives them so much. It’s like, I need to create this all the time. And, yeah, there’s there’s an example of that.

Domenic Sciortino [00:22:54]:
Yeah. And, which is why, I mean, not not going too far down this road, why a minimum basic income would just be so helpful for everybody to pursue. I I understand we still need dishwashers. We still need, you know, carpenters. I get that, but there’s some people that that speaks to. But then there’s a portion of the population that is slaving away at menial jobs just so they can play in a band on a weekend or, you know, paint or or do pet therapy, dog sit, like, whatever is speaking to them.

Nancy Norbeck [00:23:29]:
Well and as as AI and we could go down a whole rabbit hole there, and I don’t think we should because that’s a whole other conversation. But, you know, as as that starts taking over, you know, I mean, I’m already hearing that, like, entry level writing jobs are disappearing because companies have decided that ChatGPT is free. So why do they need to pay

Domenic Sciortino [00:23:45]:
for it? So we won’t go down that route at all, but I have a really big opinion on that. And Me too. Right? So it it’s interesting that, you know, Spotify and I don’t know the exact numbers, but, not to call out Spotify, but they they gained, like, 16,000,000 new subscribers last year, but they laid off, like, 11% of the workforce. Now how do you grow as a company? But so you know what happened there is there’s a computer doing what human beings you know, data. So you that’s music. Right? You have AI creating paintings and art. You know, in our perfect sci fi vision of the future, the robots would do all the crap jobs

Nancy Norbeck [00:24:27]:
Mhmm.

Domenic Sciortino [00:24:28]:
So we would be free to pursue art, but what’s happening? Right? Yeah. The computers are doing all the art while we’re and and there’s a reason for that, and it’s a horrifying reason is that because humans doing menial jobs is cheaper than robots. Now think about that. Right? It’s cheaper to put a person behind a machine or well, you know, armoring, which I do as a vocation. Like, there’s no way a robot, there’s just not enough money in it. So, you know, some of these people in these chain hair salons are left doing, you know, what some might call menial work for 7 25 an hour while a robot is making a painting or, mining data about music and who wants to listen to what, which should be. And and that’s really fascinating too because I am a Spotify listener, full disclosure. And at work, we’ll just put on a playlist.

Domenic Sciortino [00:25:26]:
What we do is we’ll pick up somebody’s favorite band or artist that day and put on a playlist of that, or a radio station. So it’s multiple artists that kind of, are in that genre. The human made playlist on Spotify, like you or I can make a playlist of, let’s say we’re queen fans and on that playlist would be queen and Elton John and Billy Joel. And, you know, the human made playlists are always better than the Spotify recommended because it’s a computer saying, well, you like Queen, so we’re also gonna play Molly Hatchett because they were from the same era, but they’re obviously completely different fans. Whereas the human playlist is like, oh, yeah. This goes well with this. This goes well with this. So Right.

Domenic Sciortino [00:26:11]:
Hopefully, that will work itself out and we’ll realize that art needs human interaction to be, beautiful.

Nancy Norbeck [00:26:20]:
I mean, art is a fundamentally human thing. So to think that a machine could create art that can compete in any way with something human created just seems right on its face to me to be completely laughable.

Domenic Sciortino [00:26:35]:
Right. Exactly.

Nancy Norbeck [00:26:37]:
And, you know, getting back to the whole art and commerce idea, I mean, you talk about Spotify. You know, who who even gets paid anything on Spotify?

Domenic Sciortino [00:26:49]:
It’s I believe me, I feel guilty every time I press play. I do. But being such a music nut and having everything available to me, I mean, I’d be willing to pay more monthly than I would than I do. You know? And there’s there’s ways during COVID, it it’s gone away now, but, on Spotify, you would play an artist, you know, an independent artist, and it there would be a button that said donate to this artist, you know, because they knew they weren’t touring. And it’s like what you need. Absolutely. Yeah. Click, click, click.

Domenic Sciortino [00:27:19]:
I’ll spend $10 on that. I’ll spend $5 on this, whatever. Yeah. So I don’t I think it was it was COVID only, and I I haven’t seen it recently on Spotify.

Nancy Norbeck [00:27:30]:
That’s a shame, especially since, you know, wasn’t there something, like, toward the end of the year where it was like they were gonna change and and certain artists, they just weren’t gonna pay at all? And I was like, how

Domenic Sciortino [00:27:40]:
Oh, I don’t know. But

Nancy Norbeck [00:27:42]:
How do you look in the mirror knowing that you are making money off of these people and they’re getting paid nothing?

Domenic Sciortino [00:27:49]:
Nothing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:27:50]:
You know? It’s like the whole, oh, come play at our event. We can’t pay you, but you’ll get exposure argument. You know? It’s like Isn’t that fascinating

Domenic Sciortino [00:27:59]:
that that’s the only industry that happens in? Yeah. It’s like, oh, come fix my sink, and I will give a 100 of your business cards away and tell you what a great job no plumber’s gonna do that. Like, so why do you expect a musician to do that?

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:15]:
Right. Or a dancer or whoever.

Domenic Sciortino [00:28:18]:
Do you wanna play her? Then you need to sell this many tickets. Here’s the tickets. You sell them. You know? If you wanna work on my fridge, you have to you know? Like, we don’t do that in any other industry. Well, I guess because art isn’t an industry. I shouldn’t call it an industry, but it is in America. I mean

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:36]:
But but also I mean, and this is this is part of what goes into that whole lapsed creativity thing I was talking about before. You know? You have this whole cultural idea that art and creativity are a luxury.

Domenic Sciortino [00:28:52]:
You know? Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:53]:
And they’re not a luxury. They’re a necessity. Imagine your life if you had no music, no art on your walls, nothing to watch on TV, no movies to go to, you know, didn’t have a camera and nobody else did either. You know, imagine imagine imagine all of your clothes were just the same boring thing if we did because there was no fashion design. Right?

Domenic Sciortino [00:29:15]:
I had so my oldest son went into theater his degree is in theater arts. My middle son is studying music and audio engineering, and I would get that comment a lot from people. What’s he gonna do with that degree, especially the theater arts degree? And I remember seeing a quote saying, you can’t say, how can you make money in this industry and then spend all your free time consuming art. Right. It’s like, that’s what what are you doing when you you know, Netflix? It’s art. Movies are art. Shows are art. You know? So that’s what everybody’s doing every night, or you’re reading a book or you’re going to a movie or you’re listening.

Domenic Sciortino [00:29:56]:
You know? So Yeah. Yeah. There’s jobs in these industries. You know?

Nancy Norbeck [00:30:01]:
You may have to make your own, but still, I have people who’ve done that. You know? I mean, there are people with theater degrees who train people in public speaking or sales techniques or, you know, all of that because there’s so much performance in it. You can apply those things in places that are not necessarily, you know, a Broadway theater.

Domenic Sciortino [00:30:22]:
Right. Exactly.

Nancy Norbeck [00:30:23]:
Think about that either. So so we just continue to devalue this stuff.

Domenic Sciortino [00:30:29]:
Absolutely. Audio and engineering, there is more vocations available with streaming in the Internet than there’s ever been. Even churches for you know, megachurches need somebody to mix that sound. It’s, like, it’s all over the place. But, yeah, I and I guess that’s you know, I always feel terrible just talking poorly about that 5% to 10% of the population, but, it is you’re just kinda stuck in this mode where, oh, that’s not important. You know? Yeah. But then you use it. You do it.

Domenic Sciortino [00:31:02]:
It speaks to you. Of course, it’s important.

Nancy Norbeck [00:31:04]:
Of course, it’s important. And and there was and it’s funny because I went and looked for this recently on YouTube, and I couldn’t find it. But I remember it, so I assume I didn’t just imagine it. There when VH 1 was doing its big save the music campaign, which I don’t know, maybe they did

Domenic Sciortino [00:31:18]:
it. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:31:19]:
And, you know, because arts funding was getting cut in schools, they had a promo that had a kid, like, walking down the street with his mom and, like, making snarky comments at, like, street artists and street performers because there was you know, in that world, there was no arts education. And so the kid was just like, whatever. You know? And when he saw that, it was just like, woah. That is so unnatural. I mean, that’s almost inhuman because we are wired to create and to create art in specific, but it really it brought the point home in such a strong way. It’s like, do you really want your kid to be, you know, listening to music and going, this is a waste of my time.

Domenic Sciortino [00:32:06]:
This isn’t important. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:32:07]:
You know? Or do you want that to, you know, be you? Do you want them to grow up into somebody who is like that with their kids? Of course, you don’t. So can we acknowledge that this is an important thing? Yeah.

Domenic Sciortino [00:32:21]:
And that some of your money might have to go towards it. You know? Or maybe more than you think it’s worth. Actually, there’s a great documentary. It was on HBO a couple years ago called The Price of Everything. Did you watch that? No. It’s but it’s primarily well, I don’t maybe I shouldn’t name the artist, but it’s about an artist that, I guess, was an investor, like a blue chip, like, made a lot of money and then started making really huge statues of shiny balloon animals.

Nancy Norbeck [00:32:51]:
Mhmm.

Domenic Sciortino [00:32:52]:
Yeah. And just about the price of art and how, it’s now, you know, investors are buying these priceless pizzas of our $10,000,000 for a Picasso, whatever. And it’s not leaving their homes, you know? So the, and the museums can’t afford it. So there’s these pieces you won’t see. And, but they’re talking about how that artist was he just comes up with an idea and then has a factory does it. Like, he’s not even Yeah. Hands on because he knows it’s worth a 1,000,000, 2, $3,000,000 because it’s a product as opposed to, you know, when a lot of the artists like Picasso were you know, they they never expected. You know? Mhmm.

Domenic Sciortino [00:33:36]:
And it’s the same way with, guitars from, like, the fifties sixties. You know, those things were meant to be played. They’re craftsmanship, and yet these investors are buying them, putting them behind loosey Lucite cases, you know, and they don’t if you go to their home, you can look at them, but you certainly can’t touch them. Yeah. But, anyways, the price of everything is the documentary and very interesting about that. Just It does. But they’re also saying the fact that these paintings are fetching this amount of money means it is worth something to these people. So it’s a double edged sword, even though it’s terrible.

Domenic Sciortino [00:34:15]:
Right. But people are willing to pay, not just for status, but because the thing is obviously beautiful and and very personal creative expression on somebody’s part that it speaks to us somewhere. So millionaires are willing to pay a lot of money for it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:34:29]:
It’s crazy. It’s crazy.

Domenic Sciortino [00:34:31]:
Right. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:34:31]:
You know, it’s like it’s like creativity is okay if it’s linked with celebrity, you know, or Right. Like that. But but if it’s not and you’re just, you know, Joe Schmo who works in a bank all day, then, oh, hey. No. That’s not for you.

Domenic Sciortino [00:34:46]:
Right. Exactly.

Nancy Norbeck [00:34:47]:
Which is so backwards.

Domenic Sciortino [00:34:49]:
It is. It’s so backwards. It is.

Nancy Norbeck [00:34:53]:
So I know you’ve been doing more at the actual intersection of art and commerce, and I wanna make sure that we get the chance to talk about that. Like, what exactly have have you been

Domenic Sciortino [00:35:03]:
doing? It is awful. It’s so awful.

Nancy Norbeck [00:35:05]:
Encouraging way to start.

Domenic Sciortino [00:35:06]:
You know, first of all, I so there’s a local venue, the concert venue. It’s it’s large. It holds, like, 800 people. And I am, the entertainment director, which means I book all the talent. And in the industry, the title for that is actually talent buyer. So you talk about that commerce, and it’s hard. It’s real I mean, I love it because I get to bring these bands in and singers in and artists and, see a concert practically every weekend if I want to. But it’s hard for me to put a price tag on what some of these people are doing.

Domenic Sciortino [00:35:46]:
You know what I mean? And, the stuff that makes money is tributes. People wanna see a tribute to Bon Jovi or a tribute to whatever, man. So I have to and they’re really I I have no problem with tributes. I just think it’s I’m in one myself. Say you’re in one. Yeah. But it’s it’s sad that that’s what sells. You know? They people will not take a chance on somebody they’ve never heard.

Domenic Sciortino [00:36:09]:
Most people won’t.

Nancy Norbeck [00:36:12]:
A lot of

Domenic Sciortino [00:36:12]:
it

Nancy Norbeck [00:36:12]:
is Gen X nostalgia, I think.

Domenic Sciortino [00:36:16]:
Yeah. The nostalgias yeah. But what I, so I have to sit down, and I have to think about how many tickets is this artist gonna sell, and what are we gonna sell them at? And that’s the offer I give to them. And every single time, it’s too low. I think this artist deserves double that, but that’s where that commerce piece comes in. But it’s been fascinating doing this because I’ve been with this venue from the get go 18 months, and I saw the blood, sweat, and tears, and money that went into this. And, you know, we sell alcohol. And I remember playing in bands for years, the ethic was, oh, well, that that that bar owner is rolling in it.

Domenic Sciortino [00:37:08]:
They can definitely afford to pay their artists more, and you would try to push that contract as hard as possible, as high as possible. You would, if you were getting a door deal where you would get the tickets at the door, or at least 80% of them, you would put somebody with a counter there to make sure the bartender was being honest. You know? And it’s been fascinating now being on the other side of the bar and saying, yeah, like, all those years, I thought that person was rolling in it might not have been true. And it’s it’s been an eye opener, you know, and now I I do I play both sides of the coin, and, beautifully, it’s a more balanced view. I know, you know, what things cost. I know how much venues cost to build and sound systems, and there’s, you know, Yeah. So there’s that. So now I kinda see both sides of it, but I wish I could pay.

Domenic Sciortino [00:38:05]:
I I almost say that to every artist. Like, it’s this should be more, but this is what we can do. Nobody’s walked away unhappy. Maybe 1 or 2. You know? But, there was a local band that plays on and off. It it’s probably my favorite band we’ve had, had in there. Their their Domenic is just beautiful. He sings all about growing up in your county and red lion and the Susquehanna river.

Domenic Sciortino [00:38:32]:
And, I knew it wasn’t good because they don’t tour regularly. They don’t have a lot of albums out, etcetera, etcetera. They ended up bringing like 130 people on a random Thursday night, which is really fantastic for this part of the county. And he chose to, he’s like, we don’t do this regularly. We don’t do it off and blah, blah, blah. He chose to give all that money to, like, the Susquehanna River Rescue and Red Lion Roars to support Red Lion. And, he’s like, I’m not worried about what what we bring in. And I remember sending him an email all the money after show, like, you know, everybody comes here and wants something.

Domenic Sciortino [00:39:09]:
You are the first person that gave us something. And I’m not saying that people should pay for free or play for free. Not saying that at all. But to be aware of that situation, what things cost. Mhmm. You know? Now he did we did pay him, obviously. We’re like, we have to give you something. You know? Mhmm.

Domenic Sciortino [00:39:29]:
But it took that pressure off of you have to sell 500 tickets at this price. And Right. That’s the part of it I hate. I absolutely hate.

Nancy Norbeck [00:39:38]:
Yeah. So I’ve always wondered because I I think I had heard at some point that generally speaking, ticket prices are like the fee for the artist divided by the number of seats or where the seats are, some some kind of calculus since seats prices are not usually the same for the entire house. Is is that right, or am I totally wrong about that?

Domenic Sciortino [00:39:59]:
So as far as what the artist gets compensated, you mean?

Nancy Norbeck [00:40:02]:
Or, like, what you pay to go see them.

Domenic Sciortino [00:40:05]:
Yeah. That’s all directly tied. So, if you have, a national touring artist, they have a fee, and that’s it. And that’s, for the most part, nonnegotiable, but sometimes if they’re routing through and they’re playing Monday in this town and they’re playing Thursday in this town and they need to fill that Tuesday or Wednesday, they will lower that fee. So most of the time, the house needs to, like, make a little money for security, the sound tech, what they call front of house, the light show. So that needs to be covered in the test ticket price. And then ultimately, in a perfect world, the rest of that money would go to the artist. But it’s not always that way.

Domenic Sciortino [00:40:55]:
You know, it’s a lot of times there’s a 5050 ticket split where the artist gets 50% and the house gets 50% because it’s just cost so much to put on a show to keep a menu open. But, yeah, you can, yeah, it’s like industry secrets. Like, you can pretty much if you see what an artist is charging for a show and you see how many seats are in that place, and you figure if they’re really popular and they’ll sell it out or 80%, you can kinda figure out, you know, how much money’s coming through the door and then, you know, what that artist is probably making. Wow. And it’s such a small percentage of people that are not only making a living off of it, but actually living very comfortable off of it. You know? There’s it’s such a small percentage of musicians. Right?

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:46]:
And that’s gotta be even worse now, like, getting back to Spotify is not paying artists. I mean, what the it’s is it like a 100

Domenic Sciortino [00:41:53]:
100 of a cent or or something? 0.0035 or something. It’s it’s terrible.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:58]:
So it’s not like, you know, when back when we were kids, And and you’d, you know, go down to the mall and buy the album. And so, yes, some of the money from that went to the store, and some of it went to the record company, and some of it went to the artist. Right? And it probably still wasn’t a super great deal for an artist

Domenic Sciortino [00:42:16]:
who It was basically better than a dollar an album. A dollar an album is usually what it came to.

Nancy Norbeck [00:42:21]:
Yeah. So, you know, now more than ever before, you’re hoping to make up your money off of your tour.

Domenic Sciortino [00:42:28]:
Absolutely.

Nancy Norbeck [00:42:29]:
You know, and maybe merchandise and and whatever, but it’s like, it’s not it’s not even coming from the music itself. It’s coming from the things that you can do on top of the music because otherwise, you know, how many people have to listen to a song at, you know, 100 of a cent for you even to earn a dollar?

Domenic Sciortino [00:42:53]:
So the, and the Internet has changed that because now ours can just be like, here’s our album, take it, and come see us perform. Because they’re it’s just cheaper for them. They can make an album for $500, put it on the Internet, and say, come see us open for this band. And that’s what they want because that’s where they’re making their money. Yeah. It’s a fascinating story about the band Wilco. They they called it the great rock and roll swindle. Wilco was one on the cusp of being one of the hottest independent bands in the late eighties or in the late nineties, pardon me.

Domenic Sciortino [00:43:22]:
And, Warner Brothers was really pushing them. They were very Domenic. So they’re like, this is the next Tom Petty. This is the next, you know, whatever Fleetwood Mac. And Jeff Tweedy for his album, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, he just did a hard left turn, and it was really, like, ambient. And it was still folk Americana, but he brought in this producer from Chicago who was really into, like, the art sound of the seventies. And it just was weird. It’s one of my favorite albums of all times, but, when they brought it to Warner Brothers, Warner Brothers is like, what’s what’s where’s the single? Well, just pick 1.

Domenic Sciortino [00:44:01]:
Well, none of them are singles. So, normally, that product is I call that product. That’s terrible. Is is property of the record company. But as it were, Warner Brothers was like, we don’t want this right now. We’re just gonna let you have it. So they put it online. They’re like, here it is.

Domenic Sciortino [00:44:21]:
It’s free, and we’re gonna do a tour. But surprisingly, because Warner dropped them and they were one of the hottest bands coming up, they received no less than 30, 35 offers from other independent labels and bigger labels to pick up the album and support the tour and this and that. And they went with none such records. So Warner Brothers already paid them for the album. It was not much, like $50,000. Mhmm. Nonsuch Records came through and offered them $35,000. And Jeff Tweedy even admitted I went with Nonsuch.

Domenic Sciortino [00:44:57]:
And he said simply because they are subsidiary of Warner Brothers. So he got paid for the same album twice. Nice. And he was gonna give it away. And he did it because Nonesuch was independent, but it was also a sub subsidiary. So he’s like, it was the great rock and roll swing and just kind of exposed.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:17]:
Good for him.

Domenic Sciortino [00:45:17]:
There’s an entire documentary on it called I am trying to break your heart. It’s a great movie. If you’re a fan of Wilco.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:24]:
Good for him.

Domenic Sciortino [00:45:25]:
Yeah. I know. It’s hilarious. Yeah. And he’s still with the top touring independent artist, him and his band. They do very well. Yeah. Free help.

Domenic Sciortino [00:45:34]:
You should go to this Yankee Hotel, Froxtrot. You should go to this style. I’ll go find it. Yeah. But but yeah. Oh, awesome. I mean,

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:42]:
it’s okay.

Domenic Sciortino [00:45:42]:
I’ll send you a Spotify link. You already got paid. It’s fine.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:46]:
Well, we’ll put it in the show notes. So it’s all good.

Domenic Sciortino [00:45:48]:
There you go. Yes. Absolutely.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:51]:
But no, I I mean, I think I think if if you can come up with creative ways around the limitations and the situations and all of that, you can still find ways to, you know, be a successful artist in that in that sense. You know? They have your album, have your tour, have have whatever. But I definitely think it takes a lot more ingenuity to come up with ways to make that work now than it used to.

Domenic Sciortino [00:46:25]:
Well, that’s why most artists, even little ones, have agents because they’re artists. They don’t wanna deal with that garbage. They don’t wanna deal with crunching numbers. They want somebody to do it for them. You tell us, you know.

Nancy Norbeck [00:46:38]:
Well, and all the intellectual property law aspects of it too. I wouldn’t wanna have to deal with that.

Domenic Sciortino [00:46:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. It it’s it’s crazy because marketing is if you have a good band or a good artist, it all hinges on marketing. Like, the the data doesn’t lie. Like, if you spend this much promoting a show, you will get this many people. It’s almost if it is an artist that is known or at least sem semi known, yeah. I just can’t stand that. You know? That whole part of it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:47:10]:
It makes me think about how, you know, the because it’s true. And I think and I I don’t know. I’m I’m spitballing here based on my own experience. But, you know, the whole field of dreams, if you build it, they will come thing.

Domenic Sciortino [00:47:25]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:47:26]:
Right? Like, in that movie, does he have to market anything? I I mean, he really doesn’t. And part of it’s because the entire town thinks that he’s crazy because he’s, you know, building a baseball field on his farm. So, okay, so there’s some word-of-mouth going on there. But he’s not doing anything else. You know? I remember when I put up my first website and I tried as soon as I had a website, the whole Internet was gonna find me. Yeah. Right. Imagine my shock when it didn’t, you know? I mean, that is that is not it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:47:58]:
You can build it, but if you don’t have a way of telling people about it,

Domenic Sciortino [00:48:02]:
they’re not gonna come. Market. Let’s be honest about marketing. Most of it is an epithetist.

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:10]:
An awful lot

Domenic Sciortino [00:48:11]:
of it. Mhmm. It’s FOMO. You know what FOMO means. Right? Yep. Fear of missing out. And whether it’s a concert or, you know, you’re playing on that. And I remember having a a conversation and, with a marketer, and I kinda broached that subject with her.

Domenic Sciortino [00:48:26]:
She says, I think about it every day, and it bothers me. Oh, I can’t

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:30]:
imagine that.

Domenic Sciortino [00:48:30]:
Yeah. That

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:31]:
it that it couldn’t. Yeah. I’m sure that there are people who aren’t bothered by that, but I certainly would be.

Domenic Sciortino [00:48:38]:
Well, the I think the people that aren’t bothered are like, well, they’ll just be spending their money somewhere else, which is a valid point. Yes. But, like, let us tell you, this is a better place to spend your money. I don’t know. I just like the more organic kinda word-of-mouth.

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:53]:
Mhmm.

Domenic Sciortino [00:48:54]:
This was an amazing art exhibit. This was amazing concert. You should come with me next time. Like, that’s just beautiful, but that does not sell tickets as as much as, hey. You must see this. It’s a limited time only. Right. You never

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:08]:
do Right. It’s limited because we wanna create a sense of scarcity that makes you buy

Domenic Sciortino [00:49:13]:
the ticket. That’s

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:14]:
That’s right. That’s what it is.

Domenic Sciortino [00:49:16]:
And what and scarcity is like, we know that that’s a horrible mindset. Right? That that that’s that’s causes like like the meme says, that causes the kid at the pizza party to take 3 pieces instead of 1 instead of cutting them up and sharing them. There’s scarcity. You know? Whereas the truth is you’re not gonna starve kid. And so, but it’s just kinda baked into us. I don’t know. I can’t say we’re born like that. I just like, you know, it’s baked into We’re

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:44]:
born like that.

Domenic Sciortino [00:49:44]:
From the I don’t think so we do.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:46]:
We just we’re we’re around so much scarcity based marketing, You know? Right. Or, like, you know, our our generation had grandparents that grew up during the depression.

Domenic Sciortino [00:49:58]:
Oh, so true.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:59]:
I mean, my grandmother, when we had to clean out their house, the the number of, like, pairs of shoes that were still in the boxes that she had never worn.

Domenic Sciortino [00:50:09]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:50:10]:
You know, the clothes that still had the tags on them.

Domenic Sciortino [00:50:13]:
Absolutely.

Nancy Norbeck [00:50:14]:
Because I think if you grow up with that, you’re terrified of that ever happening again. And some of that mindset gets passed down. So, you know, we’re probably passing it on to the next generation because we grew up

Domenic Sciortino [00:50:27]:
having snow and dust. You know? If they announce snow, what happens? Right? If they announce snow on the weather report, what happens? We rush I don’t know. Store and clean out shelves. And I know I am the pinnacle of privilege in this country. I’m a white man, but I have enough food in my cabinets to last me months. Like, if I eat every can of beans and everything, but yet but I don’t have with that one thing I want. I, you know, I really wanted little Debbie’s. So I Yeah.

Domenic Sciortino [00:50:56]:
Yeah. And if I can get out of it, it’s sold out. The odds that that

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:00]:
snow is gonna keep you in your house for 2 solid weeks and you can’t get out are so small. But but they might.

Domenic Sciortino [00:51:10]:
But isn’t it funny that that scarcity doesn’t even bother us with art? Like, we’re we we never use the thing like, oh, if you don’t pay these artists enough, they’re not gonna make stuff, and they’re gonna go away. And, like, it would people like, oh, well, I’ll find something else. You know what I mean? But Right. You know, whereas it should be, hey. This is this is unique. This is special. You should spend your time on this. You should you should, you know, compensate this person.

Domenic Sciortino [00:51:39]:
You should promote it. You should, you know, yeah. Why? And I don’t know if that’s I’m so, insulated that I don’t know if that’s strictly an American thing or

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:50]:
Yeah. I’m not sure either.

Domenic Sciortino [00:51:52]:
Yeah. Because

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:53]:
There’s plenty of people who listen to this show from around the world, so please let us know.

Domenic Sciortino [00:51:58]:
There you go. Yeah. I think there’s well, we go back to that basic minimum income that if people are free to create. Like, so is there more, less insecurity somewhere where somebody knows their their health care is being taken care of and their food bills are being paid, does that free them to play viola in a quartet? You know? Like and how important is that? It’s very important, you know, if that’s what that person is called to do.

Nancy Norbeck [00:52:25]:
Right. Right. And it’s important for the rest of us because we get to listen to it.

Domenic Sciortino [00:52:29]:
Yes. Absolutely.

Nancy Norbeck [00:52:31]:
We get to experience the the fruits of of that creative effort.

Domenic Sciortino [00:52:36]:
And it it all Amen.

Nancy Norbeck [00:52:39]:
You know, it’s funny because I feel like if you if you take that to its logical conclusion, you end up with this creative utopia where everyone is automatically well compensated, and we all just sit around making art

Domenic Sciortino [00:52:50]:
for each other. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:52:51]:
And I feel like, you know, even as I’m thinking it, I can hear the voices of people. That’s not ever gonna happen, and we couldn’t survive delusional and whatever. And it, you know, it probably is because human beings aren’t perfect. But, you know, even if we go half way there

Domenic Sciortino [00:53:08]:
Right.

Nancy Norbeck [00:53:09]:
Or a quarter of the way there, I think as a whole, human beings will be a lot happier and treat each other better than we do now.

Domenic Sciortino [00:53:23]:
Yes. And as far as, it’s almost like, I even am hesitant to say this, but struggle creates great art. So there always has to be a little bit of, you know, like, there has to be a little pushback, a little friction, whether it be I’m worried about paying these bills or my, you know, significant other left me. That’s where beautiful stuff comes from. So Yeah. It’s all part and parcel of that. So you’ll never eradicate that struggle, and that’s not a bad thing. Yeah.

Domenic Sciortino [00:53:56]:
It’s because in the end, it’s I truly believe it’s all worth it. Going back to Alan Watts, you know, he says, just you ever think about why all this exists as opposed to it doesn’t exist at all? You know, that’s the simplest basic question, and that question enough should drive you enough to keep you going to say, this all exists for some reason. I should make a song. I should do a painting. You know what I mean? As opposed to there being nothing. It’s a very weird, like, basic question, but there’s a lot of truth in that. There’s there’s something going on here. Isn’t it worth the struggle? Isn’t it worth pouring your passion into this?

Nancy Norbeck [00:54:39]:
Yeah. Right? Well and and I keep thinking the the one quote of his that that springs to mind because I haven’t listened or read to as much of him as I would like to have. But a couple of years ago, I was listening to one of his lectures, and he was talking about how, you know, we we always say we wanna know the future, but do we really? Like, if we knew when we sat down to play monopoly with our family, who was gonna win? He argues, you’d put the game away because what’s the point? You were You

Domenic Sciortino [00:55:12]:
are you are right.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:14]:
And I think the same thing is is kinda true here. Right? Like, you don’t know what’s gonna happen if you pick up a paintbrush or sit down at a keyboard or, you know, open your mouth to sing or audition or something. You’ve no idea what’s gonna happen. And the fact that you don’t know is what makes it so interesting. And you could

Domenic Sciortino [00:55:36]:
I know the exact quote you’re talking about. It’s fascinating.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:40]:
You could sit down and say, I wanna see if I can make a copy of Van Gogh’s Sunflowers. Right? And and say, this is what I’m gonna make. And it turns out that something in you wants to turn left when Van Gogh turned right, and you end up with something totally different that you didn’t see coming when you sat down to do it.

Domenic Sciortino [00:56:01]:
That is expressly yours Yeah. Even though it was copying something else.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:06]:
Right.

Domenic Sciortino [00:56:07]:
But you’re right. He’s it’s funny. He said about, tic tac toe is the worst game ever because whoever starts wins the game. Like, it’s do you know what I mean? Like, it’s really almost all the time. And even coin tossing, if you if you toss a coin 500 times, it will come up 250 times to almost all the time. But he said, if you’re only gonna toss it 50 times, then the game becomes interesting. Right? So you yeah. I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Domenic Sciortino [00:56:41]:
Like, you don’t know what’s gonna happen. Kinda like improv theater, improv comedy. You know? Paint nights. Paint nights are so wonderful. They’re so hot right now. People just go, and they’re like, we’re gonna do a painting. I’ve never painted before. That’s okay.

Domenic Sciortino [00:56:55]:
Have a glass of wine, and here’s a canvas. Like, these are awesome. Right?

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:59]:
Yeah. One of these days, I’m gonna do one of those because they fascinate me.

Domenic Sciortino [00:57:04]:
They do. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:05]:
But but yeah. I mean, you part of it is just the joy of I could I could sit down with this cheap little, you know, set of watercolors that I bought at Target and end up with a complete disaster. But I could sit down and come up with something that I really like even if I don’t know what it is.

Domenic Sciortino [00:57:26]:
Yeah. Right?

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:27]:
You know? Absolutely. You know, show it to somebody. They say, what is it now? I don’t know, but I think it’s cool.

Domenic Sciortino [00:57:31]:
I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s just what happens. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:36]:
It’s cool, though. You know? And they may say, uh-huh, if you say so, or they may agree with you. You don’t know. Right? And and that’s Right. That’s the whole that’s the whole thing. It’s like, it’s an adventure just to sit down and see what that part of you comes up with, especially if you haven’t been in touch with it before or for a long time. You know, I kinda wonder, like, when when you sat down to do those 2 drawings, you know, were you really sure what was gonna come out?

Domenic Sciortino [00:58:05]:
No. And they both look completely different than I expected, And I’m still proud of

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:09]:
them. Right.

Domenic Sciortino [00:58:10]:
You know, there’s that part of me, I’m old enough to, to shove it down. That part of me is like, this is not what you, you, it should have looked like this. Now. I’m just happy with it because I did it and it was for my wife and she was thrilled. So, you know, but 20 years ago, it would’ve been like, no, no, no, I need, I, there would have been 5 50 crumpled watercolor sheets on the desk because, no, that’s not the what it’s supposed to look like. And that’s good. I mean, some people have visions. I get it, but this was more just this is who I am on paper.

Domenic Sciortino [00:58:38]:
There was no, you know, professional training ever other than the one semester I spent in art school, 30 5 years ago. You know? There’s something there’s, you know, different kinds of art. Right?

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:51]:
And in fairness, that voice comes up for everybody. So So if you are looking at the watercolor going, what in the heck is this? You could very easily give into that voice. It’s like, this is a piece of crap. You know, I think that voice is is the the perfectionist, maybe the parent who said that to you

Domenic Sciortino [00:59:08]:
even when you’re a

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:09]:
kid. And it could also be a cultural thing. Right? Like, we’re used to, you know, you go to the museum and the things that are in there are, like, the pinnacle of the art world. You don’t see Monet’s crappy early drafts.

Domenic Sciortino [00:59:26]:
Absolutely.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:26]:
I mean, unless you’re really into him and you go digging. Right, you’re never gonna see that. You don’t hear the first crappy song that John Lennon and Paul McCartney ever wrote that

Domenic Sciortino [00:59:38]:
they recorded.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:39]:
You don’t see that stuff. And so we judge ourselves according to the professional stuff we see, and then we get mad at ourselves because we sit down to try something for the first time and that’s not what comes out. And that’s also something that stops a lot of people. I know it’s certainly stopped me when I’ve tried new things, and I just sit there and I go, I have Pressure. No idea what even to do with this.

Domenic Sciortino [01:00:01]:
But again, it’s it’s fear. Right. Fear drives everything. Right?

Nancy Norbeck [01:00:06]:
It’s fear in comparison and judgment.

Domenic Sciortino [01:00:09]:
Exactly.

Nancy Norbeck [01:00:11]:
The holy trinity of what will kill your creative process. The unholy trinity, really. Right.

Domenic Sciortino [01:00:19]:
Yeah. The unholy trinity. I like that. Yep.

Nancy Norbeck [01:00:23]:
Yeah. And if if you let that stuff stop you, then you end up in that place where you’re just cranky all the time and you don’t know why.

Domenic Sciortino [01:00:32]:
That goes back to what I said about hostility. If you feel like there’s something a all watchful eye saying, you know, you must do it this way, as opposed to just being connected. That fear is I’m a failure. This is not, you know,

Nancy Norbeck [01:00:49]:
Yeah. Which is why your I’m gonna play the song I don’t know thing is so brilliant.

Domenic Sciortino [01:00:56]:
So I I had an idea at the beginning of podcast that just came to me. I did not think of this before, And I’ll let it’s your podcast. I’ll let you judge. But you should request a song, and you should let me go get my guitar and try to play. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Do you wanna try to do that?

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:19]:
It should be something you don’t know. Right?

Domenic Sciortino [01:01:22]:
No. It has to be at least have to know how the song goes.

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:24]:
You have to at least know how the song goes. Okay.

Domenic Sciortino [01:01:27]:
So, you know, pop and rock and classics. I’ll leave it up to you. If you don’t wanna do this, it’s fine. But I just had, when we were talking about the beginning, I’m like, this would be a great way to end this podcast. Like, have

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:39]:
you a

Domenic Sciortino [01:01:39]:
request? I love it. Yeah. No. I I don’t know how my mic would pick up through, through Zoom. I’ve done it before, so I’m sure it would work. Do you wanna think while I go grab my acoustic?

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:52]:
Yeah. Yeah. I do. Okay.

Domenic Sciortino [01:01:52]:
I’m gonna take the earbuds out so we could use the computer mic. I literally just thought of this at the beginning.

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:58]:
Yeah. No. It’s a great idea. So for everyone who has not heard the last 15 minutes of us attempting to make that work, we could not make it work so that you could actually hear the guitar over Zoom, unfortunately. We were gonna try to do “Ticket to Ride,” and and we failed. But we have just said the next time that I’m back out in York, we’ll get together and see what we can do. So

Domenic Sciortino [01:02:20]:
But you have to pick a different song now because I know what it is, and I could secretly pick up with it. So it has to be something different.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:28]:
I mean

Domenic Sciortino [01:02:31]:
It’s all good.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:33]:
Fair enough. But in any case, this has been a ton of fun as always. Yeah.

Domenic Sciortino [01:02:39]:
So am I.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:39]:
No. You’re welcome. I’m glad you’ve, you know, brought it up and and we made it happen as always.

Domenic Sciortino [01:02:45]:
Making art and talking about art. So I appreciate you.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:48]:
Likewise. That’s this week’s show. Thanks so much to Domenic Sciortino for joining me and to you for listening. Please leave a review for this episode. There’s a link right in your podcast app, and in it, tell us about your experience with art and commerce. If you enjoyed our conversation, I hope you’ll share it with a friend. Thanks so much. If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now, join me at the spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage.

Nancy Norbeck [01:03:23]:
It’s free, and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners. The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.