Impro with Nina Hart

My friend and fellow Kaizen-Muse creativity coach, Nina Hart, was one of my first guests, and she comes back to the podcast today. Nina is an author and performer—including being an original member of San Francisco’s experimental dance troupe, Contraband, where she played a purple electric bass—and I invited her to dig into Keith Johnstone’s groundbreaking book on theatrical improvisation, Impro, with me.

I knew Nina would have a lot to say about how we unknowingly are our own biggest obstacles to our own creativity, which is a primary focus of the book. We talk about the role status plays in our lives and our perception of things like permission and perfection, how cultural and societal expectations create the fears that hold us back, the importance of feeling safe to let those fears go, and much more.

Show links

Nina’s website

Nina on Facebook

Nina on Instagram

The Lives of Others

The Magic of Conflict (the Aikido of communication)

Aikido in Everyday Life

Theatre of the Oppressed

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Transcript: Impro with Nina Hart
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. My friend and fellow Kaizen-Muse Creativity Coach Nina Hart was one of my first guests, and I am absolutely thrilled to have her back on the show today. Nina is an author and performer, including being an original member of San Francisco’s experimental dance troupe Contraband, where she played a purple electric bass. And I invited her to dig into Keith Johnstone’s groundbreaking book “Impro” with me.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:42]:
I am about 60% of the way through it right now, but it has blown my mind on almost every page. I believe it might be the most important book ever written on creativity, and I knew Nina would have a lot to say about how we unknowingly are our own biggest obstacles to our own creativity, which is a primary focus of the book. We talk about the role status plays in our lives and our perception of things like perfection and permission, how cultural and societal expectations create the fears that hold us back, the importance of feeling safe to let those fears go, and much more. Here’s my conversation with Nina Hart. Nina, welcome back to Follow Your Curiosity. I’m really excited to have you come back and talk to us again.

Nina Hart [00:01:27]:
Thank you, Nancy. I am thrilled to be back in this winter time.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:33]:
So, Nina, you were on the show, like, way back in year one, and we, by the time this airs, will be in year five, which is amazing to me. So anybody who wants to hear your whole creative story can go back and listen to that episode. But just to bring everybody up to speed a little bit, Nina is a fellow Kaizen Muse coach, and she’s just a lot of fun to talk to. So it’s always cool to get to have a conversation with Nina, who is also a writer, so we have that in common, too. But we decided, because I have been reading Keith Johnstone’s book called “Impro,” which is like the bible of improvisation, which has sat on my shelf for about 25 years before I saw this random comment on Twitter saying that everything that that person knew about power dynamics, they learned from reading “Impro.” And I thought, really? So I picked it up again maybe a month ago, something like that. And I honestly have found it the most fascinating book. I totally see what they’re saying about the power dynamics, but it’s about way, way, way more than that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:02:44]:
And so Nina is. I can’t remember, did you say you did read it a million years ago? I know you said the people that. That you were working with were talking about it all the time.

Nina Hart [00:02:57]:
Yeah, I read it millions of years ago. I don’t retain things, so it was good to have a refresher. But a lot of my performance art San Francisco friends, it was their bible and it was really ahead of its time.

Nancy Norbeck [00:03:16]:
Oh yeah.

Nina Hart [00:03:16]:
Because looking back on it now, it’s like, wow. So applies, it applies to everything. Everything.

Nancy Norbeck [00:03:25]:
It really does. I mean, I think as I’ve been reading this and I’ve definitely said this to you, but for everybody else, like I, I keep thinking this might be the best book on creativity ever written, because I feel like it really cuts to the core of what gets in the way. And most of it is usually. And I, you know, like, that’s not really news to me, but I’m used to hearing it in terms of, oh, I can’t think of any ideas or oh, I’m procrastinating all the time, or, you know, my perfectionism is getting in the way. And all of that stuff that we talk about with KMCC and that, you know, a lot of people talk about. And this book is really about you as a person and how you approach pretty much everything. And so like when he talks about status, because in improv you’ve, you know, whether you’re the high status character or the low status character makes a big difference in how you approach what you do. He talks about it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:04:31]:
When I read that section, I honestly thought everyone who works in management should have to read this book. Everyone. And there’s even a bit where he talks about like the 10 traits that all leaders should have or something. I was like, yes, I know people who need to read this book, but it’s still about just like forgetting all of the things that you’ve been taught to do or be. Either because the culture says that you have to or because it’s self protective or, you know, somewhere along the line you picked up something that you thought you needed to change yourself into. And he even says, I can’t remember if it’s at the beginning or if it’s kind of scattered throughout that like he himself basically decided at some point I’m going to do “the opposite of everything my teachers ever told me to do. Yeah. And it just like opened everything up.

Nina Hart [00:05:23]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:05:24]:
And I don’t know about you, but as a creativity coach, I find myself thinking, I feel like most of what I say is get out of your own way. You know, you’re. The culture tells you this, but you got to stop doing that. And I think that one, that one concept, you know, do the opposite of whatever your teachers ever told you to do. Felt like such validation of that idea because so much of it is us just not believing that we can be or do the things that we can be or do.

Nina Hart [00:05:55]:
Yes, agreed. You know, when I started refreshing myself on this book, it reminded me of Sir Ken Robinson’s work, that whole TED talk or video on education and sort of unlearning everything we’ve been taught. And I feel like that the two of them, if they weren’t friends, would be great friends and their impact on our educational system and even especially on creative education. But like you say, it applies to all of life, you know, and there’s a quote that you sent to me, one of the many quotes that you sent to me from Keith’s book. The pleasure attached to misbehaving comes partly from the status changes you make in your teacher. All those jokes on teacher are to make him drop in status. The third teacher could cope easily with any situation by changing his status first. And I just thought about, you know, the how teachers as expert set themselves up high in status.

Nina Hart [00:07:16]:
And yet, like all these jokes on teacher and like when I was growing up, we had jokes on teachers that were trying to be high status all the time and they toppled them from their pedestal. And, you know, that’s what kids do because kids want to maintain some sense of agency when they’re young and some kind of power. And they feel very early on that teachers are there to take their power from them and their inner knowing. And, you know, this is changing, hopefully, but this is something innate that is directly in conflict with what we call education, you know, so.

Nancy Norbeck [00:08:04]:
Yeah, and, you know, like, if you, if you are the kind of teacher, and Lord knows I have known this kind of teacher as a student and as a teacher who thinks that they have to come in and be that, you know, high status, I have all the power and you have none of the power. And you will do exactly what I say. You are kind of painting a big old target on your head.

Nina Hart [00:08:24]:
Totally.

Nancy Norbeck [00:08:25]:
You know, I mean, you really are because you’re setting up an adversarial relationship that is going to create that kind of resentment and have every kid just sitting there going, someday, man. And actually, what’s coming to mind as I talk about that is that scene from the Sound of Music, the dinner scene where they leave the frog on her chair.

Nina Hart [00:08:47]:
Ah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:08:49]:
And at least I think it’s a frog. It’s something like a frog. Yeah. It’s been a while. And, you know, she wins them over because she doesn’t freak out. It’s just like that third teacher who’s just like, okay, here we are. I’m coming down to your level. What can we do? You know? And she just rolls with it and I think even denies that there was anything there, because, of course, strict father who’s basically painting a target on his head, except that they’re too scared to go after him.

Nancy Norbeck [00:09:20]:
Right. So they go after her, but, you know, he’s sitting there and she’s not going to rat them out. And that seems very similar to me.

Nina Hart [00:09:29]:
Yes. Like, she’s showing vulnerability. She’s showing her equality with them on one level. You know, the. In joke. Like, I get it. I get the absurdity of us even being here. Like, you know, the.

Nina Hart [00:09:47]:
The fourth wall is broken. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. We had a vice principal when I was growing up, and she just played the Cruella Deville kind of character beautifully. Like, her outfit and her hair, her big hair and the way she walked and her big shoes and her, you know, hose on her legs. And one day some kid, like, went and took chalk and put a big old stripe down the back of her black dress, and she didn’t know it, and she was walking around, and from that day on, we called her Skunk. And.

Nancy Norbeck [00:10:34]:
Wow.

Nina Hart [00:10:34]:
She never lived that down.

Nancy Norbeck [00:10:36]:
Oh, I’m sure.

Nina Hart [00:10:37]:
I mean, theater at its best in a. In a little, you know, junior high school.

Nancy Norbeck [00:10:44]:
Right?

Nina Hart [00:10:45]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:10:46]:
Right. Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:10:48]:
But it makes great theater. It does make. It does help us become aware creatively of what we have to play with. And. But I also think Keith Johnstone is British. And I had. I studied with the clown teacher. I do clown.

Nina Hart [00:11:08]:
And a clown teacher came to Asheville when I was living there from the uk and he walked in, he hadn’t really. I think he hadn’t really taught in the US and he. After, like, half a day, he looked around. He was like, all the status stuff, it’s different in the United States. He said in Britain, a lot of his students would have that sort of head that wouldn’t move and kind of like, couldn’t loosen up because they were higher, you know, status, and they had no idea how to loosen up. And. And those people usually stand on the wall by the wall. And there’s just such a drastic contrast in the UK with the royalty, all that.

Nina Hart [00:12:00]:
And he came here, he was like, people are a little bit more on each other’s level. And I. Yeah, I found that fascinating. I would love to talk to him more about that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:12:12]:
Yeah, for sure. I. I was thinking, I’m I’m looking here because I’m looking through all of these quotes because I. I have heavily highlighted this book. Um, yeah, I mean, I. I said to a couple of people, I feel like I want to highlight every word, which sort of defeats the point. Right. But.

Nancy Norbeck [00:12:36]:
But yeah, we—like the difference between the high status and low status. One of the things that you just alluded to that really fascinated me was this idea that if you don’t move your head when you’re talking, you will automatically take on a higher status. And that comes with the body language of higher status, he says. And part of me was like, man, I’m gonna have to do this, like, in every meeting that I walk into. And then I thought about it a little more, like, I don’t know if I actually want the higher status, you know, like, because it makes you a target. Right. And because it would freak everybody else out and no one would have any idea why. And, I mean, it would be a kind of an interesting social experiment, but it kind of an unfair one because there’s no way of telling people, “oh, you’re in an experiment” without ruining the experiment.

Nancy Norbeck [00:13:26]:
Right.

Nina Hart [00:13:27]:
They’d be like, Nancy has meningitis. Oh, my God, she had something wrong with her neck.

Nancy Norbeck [00:13:35]:
Yeah. But, ah, here it is. Here’s the quote. He says, “a person who plays high status is saying, don’t come near me, I bite. Someone who plays low status is saying, don’t bite me. I’m not worth it. In either case, the status played is usually as a defense and it’ll usually work,” which makes sense just from, like, you know, things that you hear about animals playing dead in the wild. You know, there are the ones who are like, you come for me and you’re gonna live to regret it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:06]:
And the other ones are like, dude, I’m dead. You don’t want me.

Nina Hart [00:14:11]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:11]:
You know, go find something more interesting.

Nina Hart [00:14:14]:
That’s so primal.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:15]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:14:16]:
Really is tapping into something essential in, you know, how animals relate to each other. Primates, you know, humans, we think we’re different, but, yeah, we’re not. Yeah. Although I think we have some choice. I mean, I don’t know. You know, what would it look like to have no status in a room? Like.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:41]:
Right. Yeah. I’m not sure if there’s. If it’s possible to have no status.

Nina Hart [00:14:48]:
Right. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:50]:
I think as soon as you walk into a room, you have one, whether you know what it is or not.

Nina Hart [00:14:55]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:57]:
Yeah. And like, where’s the class clown on the status list? Right. Like playing low status, but probably has higher status because everybody thinks the class clown is hilarious and wants them to do more and. Right?

Nina Hart [00:15:09]:
So, yeah, that’s why comedians, clowns, buffons, you know, all of. They’re. They’re actually superseding, like, getting around the back door to get some more status. And, you know, look at how much power the clown has in our culture.

Nancy Norbeck [00:15:28]:
So, yeah, and I think it’s somewhere in this book that he talks about how, like, the fool, you know, like in King Lear or, you know, the medieval fool is paid to have low status. You know, like, what a contradiction. Right. I’m going to pay you to come in and play low status to me.

Nina Hart [00:15:47]:
Right. But it’s such wise, low status.

Nancy Norbeck [00:15:53]:
Right.

Nina Hart [00:15:53]:
Such smart, you know, so our definitions are strange that we bow to the king when it’s actually the king is usually. Well, we’ve seen that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:16:10]:
If you have to pay someone to come in and play low status, what is your status, really? Yeah, you know, you want that feeling of being high status, but you’re literally hiring someone to give you that feeling. Phew.

Nina Hart [00:16:26]:
Wow.

Nancy Norbeck [00:16:28]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:16:29]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:16:30]:
That’s wild.

Nina Hart [00:16:33]:
So is the book, like, talks about status a lot, talks about play, other themes. Like, I.

Nancy Norbeck [00:16:43]:
So I’m about 60% of the way through it.

Nina Hart [00:16:46]:
Okay.

Nancy Norbeck [00:16:47]:
And status and power, you know, are largely toward the beginning, but echo throughout. At least I assume that—it’s echoed throughout the first 60. Therefore, it probably goes through the rest. There’s. There’s a whole section on accepting, you know, the “Yes, and” part of improv that, honestly, I.

Nancy Norbeck [00:17:09]:
There was one particular section of it that I highlighted, but I, I don’t know which one it is because I couldn’t highlight it this way in the book. But I copied it and I sent it to a friend, and I said, “Improv textbook or Buddhist teaching? You tell me.” I love that because it was basically all about as soon as you start accepting whatever somebody throws at you and running with it, amazing things happen, and it’s just as true in your life as it is on stage. And I thought, yeah, that sounds pretty Buddhist to me, you know, and also really fascinating. How., how do I—how do I learn this magic trick? Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:17:48]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:17:49]:
And. But what. What hit me today as I was reading a little bit more, is that he’s constantly coming back to this idea of trying to be original and how, you know, stop trying to be original. And the one example that he used that I probably will get slightly off, but the idea is there is somebody doing an improv scene, you know, where they’re the Waiter at a restaurant and somebody asks what the special is and they take a couple seconds and say, “Fried mermaid.” And he’s like, “Fish would have been fine. You were trying too hard to be original. You took too long, you broke the moment. Just say what comes into your head.”

Nancy Norbeck [00:18:29]:
But we get obsessed with this idea that we have to be original. And I don’t even know if it’s possible to be original. I mean, it’s 2022, for crying out loud. How many things on this earth have not already been done in one way or another?

Nina Hart [00:18:44]:
Right, True. Yeah. I think we also unnaturally block ourselves when we try to be original instead of like that. Yes. And the first thought, you know, from the top of the head, like from whatever source you pull your creativity from. Trusting that like a child would, you know, kids are not trying to be original, they’re just curious endlessly. And there’s a difference between trying and just being curious and letting that flow through.

Nina Hart [00:19:20]:
But I think, yeah, that’s it. Reminds me of another quote that he said. “Some businessmen who had shown up as very dull on work association tests were asked to imagine themselves as happy go lucky hippie types in which persona they were retested and showed up as far more imaginative.” And you know, I think that permission to, you know, show up as, not as ourselves even, but to just enter the stream of creativity wherever it’s showing up and in a relaxed way, in a playful way, like in a hippie dippy way in this case, like taking sort of a high status business person and saying you’re now a hippie dippy character. And then they’re, they’re able to create and imagine all of a sudden so it’s a different relationship to ourselves, which.

Nancy Norbeck [00:20:28]:
Right.

Nina Hart [00:20:29]:
Produce.

Nancy Norbeck [00:20:30]:
Yeah. And you know, it’s funny because I was thinking of that exact same quote I was just going to go looking for when you mentioned it. I found that so fascinating and it reminded me of, you know, KMCC personas, you know, take on a persona, decide that you are whoever and go do it this way. But the two things that came to mind while you were talking, one is that I was just looking the other day at a video of my older nephew when he was about three, when they had had somebody come and do work on the radiator system in the old house that they live in because it had been clanging and banging and just making an ungodly racket. And that kid sat there in the kitchen and went on for about two solid minutes about what had to, you know, why the pipes were so noisy and how the pipes got fixed. And it was. There were alligators in the pipes. There were.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:21]:
I mean, all sorts of crazy things that just. He was literally saying whatever came into his head. We all just kind of sat there going, wow, that’s. That’s quite a tale. Right. But it’s a great example of that. You know, we.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:36]:
We don’t go with the first thought. We would say, well, the alligator can’t fit in the pipe, so it couldn’t have been an alligator in the pipe, you know, and. And so. So we don’t. We don’t do that.

Nina Hart [00:21:48]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:49]:
But another theme that comes up, you know, in various places throughout the book is things that he’s done with people who swear that they’re not creative to prove to them that they are, and, you know, like, asking questions in which somebody ends up inventing a story. Which reminded me of an exercise that I’ve done with students where I have them just take an ordinary object that’s handy and imagine that they don’t know what it is. If you’d never seen this before, what would it be? And, like, build a whole. You know, where is it? Who’s there? And build a whole environment around it. And they always are like, I don’t know where that came from. Like. Right. You don’t have to know where it came from.

Nancy Norbeck [00:22:31]:
You just have to be willing to look at something a little bit differently and give yourself permission to, like, throw out all the stuff that’s in your head. Yeah. And just go with it. And I think that’s what happens to those businessmen when you say, you know, you’re a flower child now, have at it. Right.

Nina Hart [00:22:51]:
Yeah. It’s such a great, simple exercise to open someone’s mind. I mean, can you imagine in a business setting, like, I imagine marketing firms might use that exercise all the time. You know, what are some other uses for popcorn or whatever? Like, they are used to riffing in that way, but most of us are not encouraged to do that, and it can make a huge difference. I mean, a lot of that is what the creativity coach is here to help along, see things differently, to allow for play, to let people be in, you know, unprofessional for a change, like, whatever that looks like.

Nancy Norbeck [00:23:46]:
Well, and that’s the other thing I was going to mention, which is, you know, we tell ourselves that we have to be original or we have to be professional or we have to be whatever. And he talks a lot about people being afraid. Some of some of the exercises that I was reading about today, there was one. He was talking about his version of automatic writing, which is not the same kind of thing that you’ve heard about before, but like just imagining that you see a word on the piece of paper and writing it down and then imagining the next one and, you know, seeing what. What all comes out of it. And he had someone do this exercise more as automatic reading, where you’re holding a book. Okay, what color is the book? It’s blue. You know what? Asked a couple more questions about the book and whatever, and then what’s written in the book? And he said, you know, sometimes people’s imaginations will get in the way and they will say, I don’t know, it’s written in Chinese.

Nancy Norbeck [00:24:46]:
And he’ll kind of ask questions around it and say, well, there’s something there that’s written in English. What’s written in English? But. But it was a. This woman was a book of verse. It was Alexander Pope. And so, you know, he just had her. You know, what. What words do you read there? And what came out was incredibly poetic and verse like.

Nancy Norbeck [00:25:11]:
And he said he had to stop the exercise because it was scaring the crap out of her. And, you know, but this is the kind of thing that he does with people who believe that they’re not creative. Because when you are given permission to imagine the book and imagine what’s book and get yourself out of the way, which is really the big overarching theme of the book, you know, stuff comes up. Stuff comes up like the alligators in the pipes came up when my nephew was three. You know, and we just have so trained ourselves not to do it because we’re afraid of what the, you know, uncaged imagination is going to come up with, that it will be inappropriate, that it’ll be. He talks about people are afraid of looking psychotic or obscene. And there’s a third one that was in there that I can’t pull up off the top of my head, but those two are good enough, you know, and they’re afraid. And I think, you know, this book was written in, like, the late 70s, early 80s, and I find myself thinking, like, our culture is so up to its eyeballs in armchair psychology now that, yeah, probably everybody in that room is going to be sitting there going, oh, well, what have you been up to? You know, or whatever.

Nancy Norbeck [00:26:26]:
And we’re terrified of that. And so we don’t want to let that stuff out because we’re scared to death of what somebody’s going to decide it says about us and about who we are. And if that’s the real us, that’s the scariest thing of all.

Nina Hart [00:26:43]:
Wow. Yes. Thank you, Nancy. That rocked. Yeah. You know, I see it. I have. I teach creative writing, and I don’t teach it.

Nina Hart [00:26:54]:
I help it along. But, you know, I’ve seen it in students at the beginning, like, their perfectionism gets in the way, but what it really is, is, like, of fear, of that vulnerability, of kind of going into the wilderness. You know, like Brene Brown’s book, what is it called? The Something in the Wilderness. She talks a lot about braving the wilderness. Thank you. She talks a lot about how, you know, that is where creativity lives, and it’s where our soul lives, and it’s where, you know, we are trained out of and, like, a deathly kind of fear. And I’ve had students, a few, who, because, you know, what I do is called writing from the top of your head. So it’s really about allowing that stream to come through you.

Nina Hart [00:27:57]:
And all the exercises are designed to kind of get out of the way of that. But I would say that a few highly religious students actually couldn’t make it through the class because it was like they felt that they were. The devil was coming in, you know?

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:22]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:28:22]:
And so, like, that’s another layer of, like, how religion, or I’ll say, in this case Christianity, kind of gets in the way of, like, our being in touch with that essential, childlike, creative self that really is the way to our aliveness and our, you know, spark. And that’s not something anyone else can have, and it’s ours to have.

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:55]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:28:55]:
You know, and it’s sad to me that through various institutions in our culture, that we are deathly afraid of that place in ourselves.

Nancy Norbeck [00:29:06]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:29:07]:
It’s a wonderful place.

Nancy Norbeck [00:29:09]:
Yeah. And I think it’s fair to say, you know, there are places where you need to have that kind of. You know, I hate that I can’t come up with a better word than rigid or strict, but, you know, like, if you’re going to be in the military, there’s a heck of a lot of value to. Everybody has to follow the same rules, you know, whatever. And there are other contexts where that’s important, too. Right, right. I want. I want the surgeon who follows good procedures and, you know, washes his hands before he opens me up for sure.

Nina Hart [00:29:46]:
Exactly. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:29:48]:
But at the same time, you know, it’s. It’s not even just in places like that or in religion. I mean, if you end up in a situation where you are what they call a parentified child, you basically have to give up your childhood in order to take care, usually your parents or maybe, you know, younger siblings or something like that. And, and that has the same kind of effect, you know, and, and that can leave someone with the same kind of belief, like, oh, I’m not, I’m not allowed to do that. The world will fall apart if I do that, you know, and it’s, it’s very self sabotaging in many ways, but it’s, it’s protective. It makes it really, really hard to crack through that kind of thing.

Nina Hart [00:30:29]:
Yeah, yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:30:31]:
And I think it’s great that in this book he spends a lot of time talking about how much time and effort he comes, he’s, he’s put into coming up with ways to make people safe doing this stuff. Because if you can’t make people feel safe, you know that they’re in an environment where it’s okay to say the first random thing that comes out of their mouths, even if it’s words they were taught they should never say, it’s never going to work.

Nina Hart [00:30:55]:
Yes, that is a really important element. And like giving them the choice of not saying it out loud or giving them choice to just read half a sentence or, you know, acknowledging how hard it is to go to that place, how dangerous it actually feels. It’s not even, you know, climbing a mountain. But the danger is, is real because of our, our culture, because of how we’re, we’re brought up. So safety. Yeah. I’m really glad. I’d love to read that part of the book.

Nina Hart [00:31:40]:
Maybe you have a quote, Nancy, from that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:31:43]:
Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know if I do because I was reading it on the train. So it’s not in this file that I sent you, but there are, there were plenty of quotes in here. Like one that I’m just, as I’m looking through here, there, there were two from kind of near, near each other in the book. One says “Striving after originality takes you far away from your true self and makes your work mediocre.” And then after he gives an example of somebody who is, you know, trying to be original and whatever he says, “This girl isn’t really slow. She doesn’t need to hesitate.

Nancy Norbeck [00:32:27]:
Teaching her to accept the first idea will make her seem far more inventive.”

Nina Hart [00:32:32]:
Yes. Isn’t that interesting? Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:32:39]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:32:42]:
I have another quote. He says “If we can persuade him to have fun and not worry about being judged, then maybe he can approach the test with the same attitude as a creative person, just like the tired businessmen when they were pretending to be hippies.” So that element of play, again, I think it takes away the sense of fear. It’s kind of the universal antidote. And I. Gosh, don’t we all need it?

Nancy Norbeck [00:33:24]:
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it reminds me, you know, you mentioned Ken Robinson in that TED Talk video. He gives two examples that are really closely related. You know, the one is the girl who can’t sit still in class, and they call her parents in for a meeting, and they leave the girl in another room with the radio on and she starts dancing. And, like, it’s not that your kid is stupid. Your kid is a dancer.

Nina Hart [00:33:52]:
Yes.

Nancy Norbeck [00:33:53]:
You know, and. And what do we do with kids in class? We say sit still. And again, like, there’s a valid reason for that. Right. It’s distracting to everybody else if you sit there bouncing around all the time. Certainly I know that from being a teacher. It was really, really hard, you know.

Nina Hart [00:34:08]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:34:09]:
But at the same time, what are you doing to the kid? Like, we don’t think about it from that point of view, and then we wonder how we’ve contributed to that kid losing their creative spark. If we’re smart enough to wonder about that.

Nina Hart [00:34:23]:
Exactly. Yeah. But, you know, what happens is we ignore the gifts that each of us has to bring to the world. Like, you know, if our strengths and gifts don’t match the situation, then they go unnoticed. They go untapped. It was wonderful. That was this one of Ken’s students, or.

Nancy Norbeck [00:34:46]:
I can’t remember. I think it might have been, like, a situation where he was brought in or somebody consulted with him. I’m not sure.

Nina Hart [00:34:53]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:34:54]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:34:55]:
Such a good example.

Nancy Norbeck [00:34:56]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:34:57]:
Just another choice. How do we use the experience and the passion that a child or an adult has to fuel what they do next or what they choose to do in their lives or, you know, their. Their interest as their strength. And that makes them feel like a whole person. That makes them feel right in the room all of a sudden.

Nancy Norbeck [00:35:27]:
Yes, yes. And then later on in that talk, he talks about going to an academic conference and going to the, you know, happy hour dance party at the end of the day. And he’s, you know, he says, you know, if you ever really want to see what it’s like for people who only live in their heads, go watch academics try to dance.

Nina Hart [00:35:50]:
Oh.

Nancy Norbeck [00:35:51]:
Because they. They can’t really do it. Like, they sort of try, but they’re so, like, contained because they. I think they probably don’t feel like they have permission to dance don’t feel like they have permission to have fun because they are supposed to be these super serious academic people around other super serious academic people. And how dare you? And what will they think? You know, it’s kind of like two sides of the same coin, you know, it’s like, right, I’m going to just sort of bop my head a little bit because that’s the only part of my body I’m actually connected to. I think he even says, like, their bodies are just like movement vehicles for their brains.

Nina Hart [00:36:31]:
Oh my gosh. Of course, if they have like a number of drinks, then perhaps the dancing gets a little changes a little bit. And you see that a lot. I think in business, you know, conventions and all that. That’s how people let loose. It has to be through a drug induced stupor instead of like, let’s do improv together, you know, which actually is getting more popular. Like, improv companies come to corporations and they bond. That way they work together better when they’re playing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:37:07]:
But it’s also kind of hilarious because I’ve been in one of those and so I kind of knew what was coming because I’ve done enough improv to be like, oh, look, this is the, you know, we’re going to do an exercise and we’re going to pair you in small groups and one person is going to be the person giving the idea and the other person is going to say, no, we can’t do that because of whatever. And then in the next one it’s going to be, yes, but we need to do it this other way or yes, but we don’t have any money, or yes, but we’d feel better if instead of, you know, the big totally no holds barred improv production, it was actually a production of this small little skit that we have written down over here, you know, and then finally you get to the yes and we should add this. And the whole idea is to kind of see how everything flows and everybody feels in those three different scenarios. To try to encourage you to go with the last one. I was in one of these about six months ago and we all loved it and we all said, yes, you should come back. But I would be lying to you if I have seen a shred of evidence beyond that meeting that anyone remembers that we had that, that session.

Nina Hart [00:38:27]:
You don’t think it had an impact like, it didn’t really have?

Nancy Norbeck [00:38:31]:
I, I would love to think that it did, but I think that the culture of the place is so. Not that that even though, you know, a division head brought these people that she’s known forever in to do this thing. It’s kind of like if you want to change it, it’s the status thing, right? It’s the status and the permission and all of that. It’s like you can’t just bring in the group to do this day long session. You have to be the one because you are the one at the top with the status to start to incorporate it somehow into things that we do, to start giving actual active permission for people to say yes and to, you know, do something different, to say the thing, the first thing that pops into their head. And if there’s not that kind of follow up from the people at the top, the people with the low status can’t really do a whole lot aside from maybe say, hey, that thing six months ago was really cool. It’d be great if we actually lived that way now.

Nina Hart [00:39:35]:
Ah, so true. Yeah, it’s sort of like our entire culture is caught up in these institutions and structures that no longer serve everyone anymore. They never served everyone. They weren’t designed to serve everyone. They were designed to keep the people in power that, you know, designed to preserve status. Yes, it was designed exactly in that way. And you know, to look at an organization structurally is a big feat and to be willing to, I think as we talked about earlier, like, can the teacher make themselves vulnerable and open to both feedback and lower status and suggestions and working together or not being the expert, but creating an environment where all kinds of ideas can be fostered. It sounds quite idyllic and it kind of probably is, but I’ve experienced it once in a work situation and I was like, I have never seen anything like this.

Nina Hart [00:40:47]:
And it, it wasn’t perfect, but they were trying. But it did come from the top. A willingness to change the structure from within. And yeah, that’s a big thing and necessary if we’re gonna evolve as humans. I think that any creativity coach might know that deep down that we are a little bit trying to change the entire structure of our institutions and culture.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:22]:
And I think reading this book has reminded me of that in a way that I don’t think I realized or understood quite as clearly. You know, like, wow, there is a lot we are going up against here because people have all of this programming that says thou shalt not be or do or say any of the following things.

Nina Hart [00:41:48]:
Yes.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:48]:
And then we wonder why people get stuck and can’t come up with ideas or can’t sit down and write. Well, because they’re terrified that they’re going to break those rules and be ostracized from the entire community. I mean, let’s be real. Who wants to take that risk on a daily basis?

Nina Hart [00:42:06]:
Yeah, it’s traumatic to the personality at the very least, but it’s huge. Yeah. To be outcast from a group is one of the greatest pains we could have, you know, But I think, you know, the—our culture is changing little by little, you know, and creating environments and support for people to say their truth, speak their truth. So. And to be prepared for the backlash or to work with themselves internally, knowing that their response is even patterned in that their response is to negate themselves, but that is not actually their real self that needs to be negated. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:42:59]:
And that’s like the magic of awareness. Right. If you’re not aware that this is what’s going to come at you and this is why it’s going to come at you, and this is how, you know, be. Being an artist has always been a threat. Right. You think about, like, every totalitarian kind of government situation, who do they come after first? It’s always the artists, you know, because they might say anything, and we can’t have that, you know, I mean, now I’m thinking of The Lives of Others. That great movie about the East German writer, which, if you guys have never seen it, you should see it. It’s amazing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:43:31]:
It’s maybe 10 years old, and Stasi surveillance in East Germany and all of that. Yeah, powerful. Yeah, it’s amazing. But. But, yeah, like, you’re up against all this stuff, and if you don’t know that that’s where it’s coming from and that that’s, you know, that you are actually threatened. Because who thinks when they sit down to write a poem or draw a picture or write a piece of music that they’re a threat? Right. I’m just writing a story. What’s the big deal? Yeah, but it’s a threat on some level, to different degrees, to different people, to different groups of people for various reasons.

Nancy Norbeck [00:44:12]:
Whether it’s the religious. Where is this thing coming from? You’re not allowed to let that out. Or whether it’s just, well, why are you better than me? You know, Mozart versus Salieri. You can’t. You can’t be better than me. I’m the. I’m the guy, you know? Yeah, but. Yeah, I mean, there’s so much swirling in all of that stuff, which I think is part of why the status part of this book is so powerful, you know, to understand which one you are in any given Moment.

Nina Hart [00:44:43]:
Yeah, actually it’s kind of mind blowing now that I think about the power of a book like that, because the artists that I know that have taken his work and run with it, like, they’ve really been doing groundbreaking work and, you know, working with marginalized communities as well, and, you know, those communities are, it’s even scarier than, you know, I’m a white person. It’s not as dangerous, you know, and it makes you look at our entire society in a different way. And, but to know that a book like that, and just speaking of status could actually ripple out into art that creates changes, that gives permission, that allows new movements to come about. Like, it’s a powerful little book there that you chose Nancy, to talk about today.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:45]:
Really, it really is. And there’s, there’s another quote that I want to mention here. He says, “Suppose an eight year old writes a story about being chased down a mouse hole by a monstrous spider. It’ll be perceived as childish and no one will worry. If he writes the same story when he’s 14. It may be taken as a sign of mental abnormality. Creating a story or painting a picture or making up a poem lay an adolescent wide open to criticism. He therefore has to fake everything so that he appears sensitive or witty or tough or intelligent according to the image he’s trying to establish in the eyes of other people.

Nancy Norbeck [00:46:25]:
If he believed he was a transmitter rather than a creator, then we’d be able to see what his talents really were.” And he goes on a little bit about the ancient idea that Liz Gilbert talks about in her TED Talk that, you know, it used to be that you weren’t the genius, but you had a genius and you were letting the genius do the work through you. And so, you know, this whole idea, it really, really struck me because that’s around the age that my nephews are. You know, they’re 7 and 10. And so it’s like, yeah, okay, what the 10 year old can still get away with now will he be able to get away with in a couple of years? And what will that tell him? And how will that shut him down? Because, oh no, I have to be all of these other things to make other people happy.

Nina Hart [00:47:12]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that divide that happens. I don’t know, age 11. Whenever it is culturally appropriate to not behave in certain ways like that, I, I mean, I, I would love to see it studied more and more because I know for myself, like when I was probably around 12 years old and Carol Gilligan’s book, you know, studying that transition of girls and their actual stifling of the voice. At age 11, something happened for me around that age and age 12 where I cared a lot more. Probably hormones, but I cared a lot more about what other people thought of me. And like that pressure from outside became. Started becoming greater and greater and I was really aware of how precious childhood was because of the things that we still do

Nina Hart [00:48:23]:
let children be. And you know, there’s so much gold there. And I, I don’t know, I mean, I think again, as creativity coaches, we’re like rehabbing the inner 12 year old to. I mean, they’re still pretty feisty. Like they can be rebellious. That’s great. But it starts dwindling, you know, and yeah, by the time we hit college and get serious, whatever, or get out, foisted out into the world of work, there’s all of this behavior we have to take on. So sometimes it’s necessary sometimes.

Nina Hart [00:49:04]:
But often, you know, human potential is stifled.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:08]:
Yep.

Nina Hart [00:49:08]:
Because of that shutting down. What if everyone in a in a job could contribute their ideas, you know?

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:19]:
Yeah. You know, you go into a corporate brainstorming session and it’s like, all ideas are welcome, but it’s back to that, yes, but, you know, or no, we don’t have enough money or whatever. And that’s literally what it turns into. And then you wonder why people are like, yeah, forget it. I’m not going to throw my idea out there when it might be the idea you need.

Nina Hart [00:49:41]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:43]:
You know, but I had, I had never realized until I read that section with, you know, the comparison between the 8 year old and the 14 year old that that there’s that threshold there and after which you are expected to be this more mature person. The only difference is six years, the story’s the same.

Nina Hart [00:50:00]:
Yeah, yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:50:01]:
You know, it’s the alligators in the pipes again, right? Yeah, the alligators in the pipes were three year old. Go for it. Alligators in the pipes from a 14 year old. I hope that I would hear that and say, I want to know more about how the alligators swim through these pipes. Like how big are they? Is this a, you know what, what was it called, the Isaac Asimov story with the. Where they shrink the people down to like go in and do surgery on somebody at an atomic level.

Nina Hart [00:50:29]:
Oh, oh, it was a movie too.

Nancy Norbeck [00:50:32]:
Yeah. And I, I’m sure it starts with an eye and now I can’t remember what the heck it was called. But you know, maybe the alligators work that way. Right? Maybe the alligators shrink down. I want to hear more about this crazy sci fi story and probably want you to write it, because why not?

Nina Hart [00:50:48]:
Why not? Why not? Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:50:51]:
You know, it reminds me of, you know, Jill Badonsky’s favorite line. So what? I’m doing it anyway.

Nina Hart [00:50:57]:
Ah, such a great line.

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:00]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:51:00]:
Like a great way to fight our right inner monologue that keeps saying, you can’t do that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:08]:
Right.

Nina Hart [00:51:08]:
So what? I’ll do it anyway.

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:09]:
Like doing it anyhow.

Nina Hart [00:51:11]:
I can do that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:12]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:51:14]:
Really?

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:14]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:51:14]:
Really?

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:15]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it also. This all brings to mind that. That great quote from Robin Williams. You know, you’ve only got a little spark of madness. You mustn’t lose it.

Nina Hart [00:51:25]:
Oh, that’s perfect.

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:26]:
Like, yeah, you know, don’t lose it. Don’t tuck it away somewhere. Bring it out.

Nina Hart [00:51:33]:
Yeah. What is that Seal song? We’re never going to survive unless we get a little crazy. Come on, people. Yeah, Get a little crazy.

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:44]:
Yeah, yeah.

Nina Hart [00:51:46]:
Natural.

Nancy Norbeck [00:51:47]:
So terrified of the crazy. And there’s. There’s a quote in here that I keep trying to kind of find as I’m looking through these. That’s about. He describes stage fright.

Nina Hart [00:52:01]:
Oh, yeah. I think I might have.

Nancy Norbeck [00:52:03]:
Ah, here we go. “In stage fright, space contracts into a narrow tunnel down which you can just about walk without bumping into things. In cases of extreme stage fright, the space is like a plastic skin pressing onto you and making your body rigid and bound.”

Nina Hart [00:52:21]:
Wow.

Nancy Norbeck [00:52:22]:
Let me tell you, as someone who has been dealing with wicked, wicked stage fright, I put myself in that second category. And every time, even just thinking back to the last time I got up in front of people on my own to sing something, which was eight years ago now, maybe, that rigid and bound, like I could not move. It was like I could move enough to sing the song, but nothing else was under my control. And I think it does go back to the, “What am I going to reveal and what will people think?” And I didn’t even write the song right, so it’s not like they’re going to say, “That’s a crazy song, man. That was, that was just obscene. What were you thinking? You’re a psycho,” you know, But.

Nancy Norbeck [00:53:17]:
But yeah, there’s something about putting yourself in front of people like that that I think. I don’t know. I’m thinking now about the whole idea of, like, creating the safe space and what we’re taught a lot of school, right. When you get up in front of people on your own to recite a poem or sing a song or give a presentation or whatever, it’s so that you’re going to be judged, right? You’re going to be given a grade on it. And I don’t think that that’s where my stage fright came from, but I’m sure that that contributed to it. Like, getting up by yourself in front of other people means you’re going to be judged. And what else will that do to you except make you stand there? I mean, it’s a trauma reaction, right? You got fight, flight, and freeze. And boy, I am a champion freezer.

Nina Hart [00:54:07]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:54:08]:
And yeah, it’s just like there’s something. There’s that. It’s kind of like that thing with keeping your head still, you know, like you have to be able to move in order to be your full human self. And if that stage fright or something else is contracting that movement, like the academics at the conference or the kid, the kid who really was a dancer, you know, that it just. It messes up everything else. It messes up that whole creative process.

Nina Hart [00:54:40]:
Yeah. And I think that’s really points out an important point of how connected our bodies are to our creative process. And allowing oneself to move in the midst of a fear reaction, I believe could help, you know, getting into your body. I have stage fright too. It’s awful. And it’s pretty normal for a lot of people, but some of us get hit with it worse. Like, yeah, I certainly know, like, I cannot. It says, though, I have no control over, like, you know, I’m telling myself, like, calm down.

Nina Hart [00:55:28]:
All the things I’m supposed to. Good self talk, but my body is out the window.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:34]:
Body is running the show, man.

Nina Hart [00:55:36]:
It’s running the show.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:37]:
Your brain can say whatever you want. I mean, that same experience I remember so vividly. And it. It’s funny because it’s like I’m singing while I’m doing this, right? So. So like the. The automatic process is happening. That’s. That’s happening almost like it’s outside of me, right? Because inside I’m saying to myself, so.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:00]:
So self. Body. You know, all of those voice lessons that we took and that thing about like breathing and supporting the breath. It’d be great if we could do that right now.

Nina Hart [00:56:11]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:12]:
And my body basically saying, sorry, dude, you get what you get. This is it. Run with what you got because you’re not getting anything else. Be like, okay, then, like, carrying on, because what else could I do? But it’s like, yeah, yeah, little things like that would be really, really helpful right now. But. But the body is running the show and it doesn’t have the energy for that. Because there is a sabertooth tiger three feet away, drooling in anticipation, getting ready to rip my head off.

Nina Hart [00:56:43]:
Yes.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:44]:
Even though no one in that room probably even has anything that could be construed as a weapon on them and has any intention of using it. That is what my body believes and that’s the end of the story.

Nina Hart [00:56:55]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. I mean, it speaks to the bravery, the courage of people who can get even out there one time, you know, and, and do that. And I don’t even know if it’s natural for solo performers to, you know, I don’t, I don’t know in a lot of cultures that not a thing, like everyone drums together and maybe somebody takes the solo, but it’s in a different context.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:23]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:57:23]:
You know, I think that our individuation in this culture is so strong that the fear has gotten out of control. And, you know, the sad part is like, why would your body want you to do that again? Like, your body would say, I don’t ever want to do that again. But the thing is, like, what I find is the more I do something, the less afraid I become, the more normalized, more I realize I’m going to have a good night of a show and a bad night of a show and.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:59]:
Right.

Nina Hart [00:57:59]:
You know, and, or like, it’s all part of the process to let yourself be brave and put yourself out there and that, that’s how we grow. And you know, it’s, it’s, it’s hard when the body is like, oh, there are better things you could be doing with your time. Go read a book or watch Netflix or, you know, yeah, yeah, or, or.

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:26]:
“Go play in traffic” probably would have made my body happier than it was at that moment, you know?

Nina Hart [00:58:30]:
It feels that hard. I couldn’t agree more. And I work with a lot of people that have similar issue. And I think it, you know, how do we make it safe? How do we do small steps so that you’re out there for 30 seconds instead you sing a 30 second song, Nancy.

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:52]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [00:58:52]:
You know, like, what, what do we have to do to kind of inch towards allowing our nervous system to finally be okay? Or do we get up there and go, I am so nervous right now. Look at my feet, they’re shaking. My God, like naming it or.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:08]:
Right. You know, and I wonder sometimes what would happen not for the audience, but for me or somebody in that situation if I actually got up there and said, I just want you to know that right now I am absolutely beyond terrified and my body is like completely freaking out. But I’m gonna do this thing anyway because it’s important for me to do it. And I hope that you will, you know, come along on this ride with me in. In that spirit. And I hope that it, you know, will turn out better than it feels like it might right now. So let’s roll.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:46]:
You know, which feels, again, like something you’re not allowed to say, right? You’re not allowed to stand up there and say, I am scared to death to do this thing that I want to do for you.

Nina Hart [00:59:55]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:55]:
But I wonder if it. If just acknowledging it that way out loud would free something up, you know, because then everybody in the room is suddenly on your side, right? And they probably are on your side anyway because nobody wants to watch somebody fall flat on their face, but now they’re really on your side, Right. You know, and even if they don’t say that out loud, you’re—you’re hoping that you’ve just brought them in with you. And, yeah.

Nina Hart [01:00:24]:
They’re rooting for you. And you’re rooting for you. Like, you’re like, right, all right, I can rise above this thing that I have. And it’s also applicable to teaching, too. Like, I, in my classes, I try to create a space where a new student can come in and say, I’m terrified. I don’t want to read my writing out loud.

Nina Hart [01:00:49]:
I’m not going to for the first two classes. Or I’m just going to read a sentence. And like, lo and behold, four classes in, they’re, like, singing their words out, you know, and it’s just. We don’t create environments where we can be that real. And, you know, I encourage you. And I. I encourage myself when I perform, to actually name it, because everyone, like, for me, they can see it. Like, for you, maybe not.

Nina Hart [01:01:24]:
Maybe nobody can even notice that you’re nervous, but you’re feeling it.

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:29]:
I’m always told that no one can tell.

Nina Hart [01:01:30]:
I have a feeling.

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:32]:
And. And the other thing I find really fascinating is when I listen to recordings from. From those times, I can hear the shaking. And everyone else swears to me that they can’t hear it. And it’s very hard for me to believe it because it’s so obvious to me. One of my friends swears to me that I can hear it because I remember it, because I remember being in that moment and that, you know, it’s like. It’s not like the big obvious shake, right? Apparently, it’s just enough for me to notice, and, you know, then it compounds itself and whatever. But.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:09]:
And I have discovered the magic of beta blockers, which keeps your heart from racing, which just compounds the whole thing. So, like, you know, if I have to get up on stage in front of people, and I think that it’s going to be an issue when I have taken one of those ahead of time. And some people call it cheating because, like, musicians will use them for auditions.

Nina Hart [01:02:26]:
Like propanol or whatever it’s called. Propofenol.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:29]:
Yeah, propranolol. I think something like that, it’s. It’s a tongue twister. But. But when I take it in a situation like that, it always, there’s always this moment where I look out and I go, I am sitting up here or standing up here and I feel like a sane person.

Nina Hart [01:02:49]:
Wow.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:50]:
And just like, wow, look at this. I am not freaking out. It’s like, I do this every day. And that to me is kind of a miracle. And so is it cheating? I don’t know if it lets you do the thing that you love to do. I think it’s probably not cheating. And I think the more you get used to it, not feeling that way, probably the less you need it anyway. It’s just a lot.

Nina Hart [01:03:13]:
Quite true. But a lot of people, like concert, you know, musicians have to rely on that. Like violinists are shaking and that, that stuff helps them.

Nancy Norbeck [01:03:24]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [01:03:24]:
You know, I, I think we all have our things to work through. And if it works.

Nancy Norbeck [01:03:29]:
Yeah, yeah. It keeps the body from running the show.

Nina Hart [01:03:32]:
Wow.

Nancy Norbeck [01:03:33]:
In an absolutely astonishing way.

Nina Hart [01:03:37]:
The fearful body, maybe it allows the body to just be normal.

Nancy Norbeck [01:03:41]:
Yeah. Because it keeps, it keeps your heart from freaking out. And as soon as, like, as soon as you feel that your heart’s racing, it races more. And. Yeah. And trying to talk that down is like, you know, trying to stand in front of the speeding train and say, you need to stop now.

Nina Hart [01:03:59]:
Yes, I know, I know. I have all the tools, like the natural tools that I use when I do stand up comedy, you know, but I could be using those tools. And I’ll walk in one door of a venue and I’ll walk out the back door in a matter of 30 seconds and I’ll get in my car and drive back home, like, yeah, who did that? Why did you do that? You kind of wanted to do something tonight, but you left. Oh, well.

Nancy Norbeck [01:04:31]:
And then, you know, and then I know what I would do in that situation, then I would start the beating myself up for it.

Nina Hart [01:04:37]:
Oh, yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [01:04:37]:
And then that whole, that whole crazy cycle starts all over again, too.

Nina Hart [01:04:42]:
This is why we’re creativity coaches because we’re so messed up, Nancy.

Nancy Norbeck [01:04:47]:
I think so. We want to help other people not be so messed up.

Nina Hart [01:04:51]:
Yeah, well, and we were the wounded healers. We have to learn on our own how to work through things, and, you know, we normalize for people. This stuff is what artists go through. Like. Yeah, people don’t realize, like, that aren’t in the arts. They don’t realize what artists go through just to get on stage, just to show a piece of artwork to a friend. Yeah. I mean, not everyone’s like that.

Nina Hart [01:05:18]:
I would like to put that costume on, but, you know, most of us are just doing the dog paddle, and.

Nancy Norbeck [01:05:28]:
We believe we’re the only ones who are having trouble, which is why we beat ourselves up about it.

Nina Hart [01:05:32]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [01:05:32]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [01:05:33]:
Whereas there are a lot of really sensitive artists that, you know, maybe will never share their art because they’re caught in that cycle, and people on the outside can go, wow, their. Their work is incredible, and yet they shut it down.

Nancy Norbeck [01:05:49]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [01:05:51]:
That, to me, is very sad.

Nancy Norbeck [01:05:53]:
Oh, it’s tragic. It’s tragic. It’s such a complete waste of talent and potential.

Nina Hart [01:05:58]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [01:05:59]:
So there’s one other quote that I wanted to bring up that kind of. I think, kind of goes with this sort of. But when I was talking before about acceptance and how there are parts of this book that really feel like they could come right out of a Buddhist text to me.

Nina Hart [01:06:14]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [01:06:17]:
He says. He’s talking about that acceptance thing, and he says, “The actor who will accept anything that happens seems supernatural.” And then he goes on and says, “It’s the most marvelous thing about improvisation. You are suddenly in contact with people who are unbounded, whose imagination seems to function without limit.” But I, As I was reading that part of the book, and I am so sure that I had other quotes about this in here, but I can’t find them right now, so it’s fine. But, you know, thinking about that, like, I am certainly not at that level of enlightenment myself yet, if I ever will be. But it makes sense to me that the ability to just accept whatever comes to you and run with it is, you know, the big part of Buddhism and parts of other belief systems, I’m sure. That the big one that comes to mind for me.

Nancy Norbeck [01:07:19]:
It also occurs to me that, like, that is my understanding of how aikido works. You know, that it’s the martial art where you use the energy of what’s being thrown at you and. And you don’t attack it. You kind of flow with it. And I feel like there. It makes perfect sense to me that there’s a ton of power in being able to do that, you know, to kind of being able to just say, oh, someone’s, you know, throwing a chair at me. Okay. And.

Nancy Norbeck [01:07:50]:
And, like, grab the chair instead of letting it hit you or, you know, pushing it off or whatever, and maybe use the chair against them, something like that, you know, and it makes sense to me in. In any situation. Not just a creative situation, not just an improv situation, you know, Like, I think, you know, a lot of what we hear about what makes us suffer, again from the Buddha, is like resisting what’s happening.

Nina Hart [01:08:18]:
Yes.

Nancy Norbeck [01:08:18]:
And to be able to run with something. I mean, that. That sentence alone and that idea alone makes me want to go out and find an improv group right now.

Nina Hart [01:08:26]:
I know. Me too.

Nancy Norbeck [01:08:28]:
Teach me, sage people, you know, because there is. And, you know, people who’ve listened to the podcast for a while will know that there are people that. That I’ve talked to about living by “Yes, and” before. John Rodell just came back a while ago, and we talked about it again, and there’s one episode that’s called “Yes, and” at the beginning with Jennifer Nasta Zefutie, who has, her whole life, has basically been “Yes, and.” And it’s the most phenomenal story. And I just feel like, you know, we miss opportunities because we do the,

Nancy Norbeck [01:09:03]:
“No, sorry, we don’t have the money for that” to ourselves. Yes, you know, or “no, sorry, that’s too scary.” You know, “nope, sorry, you’re having an open mic. And boy, would I love to get up and sing in front of people, but that’s too terrifying. So I’m gonna stay home and wash my hair that night.” And I don’t know what you’ve seen, you know, in your years of performing and coaching about accepting, but I’m fascinated by this idea.

Nina Hart [01:09:32]:
Wow. Yeah. I love that you’ve brought in Buddhism and, you know, acceptance, surrender, you know, allowing what is happening to be okay instead of fighting against it. And, I mean, I. I love all the threads that you’re connecting with improv into life, into how we make decisions, how we live. And, you know, like, I had this situation in a parking lot in Asheville outside of a grocery store, and the guy had his door open next to mine, and he was sitting in the seat. Old, older guy, you know, kind of gleam in his eyes. You know, probably as people get older, they allow themselves to play again, I think.

Nina Hart [01:10:38]:
But maybe this person was like that his whole life. But I said, “Excuse me, sir, do you mind closing your door so I can get into my door?” And he said, “No, I won’t.” And I was like, “Okay.” He said, “I’m just kidding, of course!” And. And I, like, totally played along with him. Like, we just started playing, and he was like, “I’m visiting my son here, and I am so glad to find a person like you who would just go with something that I said.”

Nina Hart [01:11:11]:
And, like, it kind of made his day, and it kind of made my day. Like, you know, how do we live our lives where. Where we’re, like, joking with the guy whose door. It’s like, you know, not letting us get in our car, Like. Like allowing for that kind of rapport with each other. And when I was in Italy, like, I felt that very much like the Italian culture is so much, like, just going with it. Let’s go for a walk now, or let’s go do this. Or let’s.

Nina Hart [01:11:43]:
You know, there’s like, a sense of flow, and a saying yes that captures the ability to be in the moment, which is again back to Buddhism. Which is again back to, like, how do we approach our lives? And I felt a great sense of relief when you just said what you said. Like, something you said. I felt I could take a big breath. Like, how.

Nina Hart [01:12:07]:
How do we allow ourselves to live in a way that’s creative but beyond creative? Like, open. Open and.

Nancy Norbeck [01:12:16]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [01:12:16]:
Allowing.

Nancy Norbeck [01:12:17]:
So, yeah. And I. I think the hard part is. And I think this is where people get stuck, right? Like, is accepting, but still taking action. Like, people think, you know, oh, if I accept that I’m overweight, then that means I’m never going to lose weight. Or, you know, if I accept that somebody’s coming into my house and putting a gun to my head, then I’m just going to die. Right. I mean, I think if you wake up in the middle of the night and your house is on fire, you need to take appropriate action.

Nancy Norbeck [01:12:49]:
But taking that appropriate action also requires you to say, hey, my house is on fire. I need to get out of here. Right. It’s not just letting it come in and, oh, I guess I’m done. See you later. It’s been a fun ride, right? It’s not letting the fire come in and consume you. It’s not. It’s not letting this other stuff happen.

Nancy Norbeck [01:13:08]:
It’s not letting somebody treat you badly. It’s more like, oh, okay, so this is what this person is doing. And so this is an opportunity for me to learn something, whether it’s how to get out of having to be around them or how to stand up for myself with them or, you know, to brace myself in some way so that I’m not as bothered by it. I think there’s something in there, like, accepting does feel kind of magical to me when I think of it this way. But it’s definitely not just. Just letting people or situations get the better of you. There’s an active piece to it. And that improviser who’s accepting things is still an active part of the improv.

Nancy Norbeck [01:13:54]:
Right. They’re saying, why, yes, sir, we are having fried mermaid this evening, and we’ll have a side of whatever comes out of their mouth. They’re running with it, they’re doing their piece of it. So it’s not being passive. I think people think that accepting what life throws at you is passive, and I don’t think that’s what any of this is about.

Nina Hart [01:14:14]:
Yeah. And I think in the improv world also, there is a whole new trend of saying no. Like, why? Like, who? A lot of where the saying yes was coming from was creating some bad situations on stage for women in particular, where you have to say yes to somebody who’s treating you a certain way on stage, like.

Nancy Norbeck [01:14:44]:
Right.

Nina Hart [01:14:44]:
And you don’t want to be in that role, and it feels sexist or it feels dangerous or. I’ve had that situation, actually. And, like, how do we accept the moment and then stand in our power of making sense of a situation? Like, in a way that is the best for us as human beings? So it’s not just an overlay. It’s actually an ability to be responsive to a situation and awake to a situation, so. Because saying no is very, very powerful.

Nancy Norbeck [01:15:28]:
Definitely. Yeah, definitely. And there is a bit in here, and I probably highlighted it, but I don’t want to take the time to go look for it. But where he talks to someone in, you know, about this acceptance kind of thing, and. And, you know, in personal relationships. And she says, but life’s not like that. You don’t have control over things. And he’s like, well, but do you block it or do you accept it? You know, when people are difficult with you and.

Nancy Norbeck [01:15:55]:
And, yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of energy to be expended, probably unnecessarily, if you just throw up a hand and fight every single thing that comes your way that you don’t like, you know, And I think that’s where a lot of us get stuck. And then, you know, the training in Western culture is to fight back against the things you don’t like, you know, or to resist them. And, I mean, we’re practically taught that from the time we’re kids. You know, like, I didn’t get the toy I wanted for Christmas, and I’m upset about it. Even though I got these other 83 really cool things, I didn’t get the one thing. And now that’s not okay, you know, But yeah, like, I remember I read that section a couple times because I was sort of like, what exactly is he saying? Is he saying that blocking them is a waste of your energy and you need to just sort of let them flow past you or, you know, and I never came to a conclusion about that one, but it’s still,

Nancy Norbeck [01:16:54]:
It’s kind of like, you know, how do—how do we respond to things? Because he talks about improv as a way to kind of feel that energy of what happens if you block things and what happens if you accept them. And again, this book is way before #MeToo and all the things that you’re talking about. So, you know, But just in general, assuming that you’re not in an unsafe situation, that, Yeah, there’s like, that—

Nancy Norbeck [01:17:21]:
That flow of energy, that aikido kind of thing, and it. I don’t know. I’m fascinated by it. I can’t claim to fully understand it, but I think it’s absolutely fascinating. It made me really want to sit down and be like, I want to learn how to do this, how to.

Nina Hart [01:17:35]:
How to do.

Nancy Norbeck [01:17:36]:
I want to learn how to do this, how to just be able to accept things. Because I imagine it does seem supernatural. Because we’re taught not to do that.

Nina Hart [01:17:44]:
Yes.

Nancy Norbeck [01:17:45]:
You know, we’re taught to. I’m gonna go back and tell them they need to give me my money back. And, you know, and I think you can accept it and go, take. You know, go tell them they need to give your money back without coming out like a steamroller when you do it? Maybe that’s the difference. I don’t. I don’t know.

Nina Hart [01:18:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think there is an aikido to communication. There’s a book, of course, I don’t remember the name, but an Aikido master wrote it about how to use aikido in communication and groups. And that is a book Nancy should read, and I.

Nancy Norbeck [01:18:25]:
It sounds like it.

Nina Hart [01:18:27]:
should find it. I read it a long time ago, but it was amazing.

Nancy Norbeck [01:18:30]:
If you find it, I’ll put it in the show notes so people can check it out.

Nina Hart [01:18:33]:
Awesome. Okay. Yeah, I’ll Google. Yeah, yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [01:18:37]:
Because now I do want to read that. Yeah, yeah, gosh, absolutely.

Nina Hart [01:18:41]:
I remember that. Well, We’ve gone down a lot of rabbit holes, alligators and pipes and stuff, and gone through, like, all the little. Like, you can make a lot of great music from pipes that are making noises, too. Did you know that you could have a symphony around that?

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:00]:
You totally could.

Nina Hart [01:19:01]:
Yep.

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:03]:
Tiny baby alligators swimming through the pipes are just a bonus.

Nina Hart [01:19:06]:
Just a bonus. You can add your own flavor to it. That’s right. Yeah. Anyone out there in podcast land, if you want to send us your rendition of Alligators and Pipes, we would play it on the next show, right?

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:21]:
Please do. We would love to check it out.

Nina Hart [01:19:23]:
Yeah. Yeah, we’ll dance to it.

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:26]:
There you go. Performance art. It’s perfect.

Nina Hart [01:19:29]:
The new Nutcracker.

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:31]:
It’s perfect. Yeah. But, yeah, this is why this is such a tiny, unassuming book when you look at it on the shelf. But there is so much packed into it. It’s really amazing. So, yeah, that’s why there’s more highlights now than there were when I left the house this morning.

Nina Hart [01:19:52]:
Creative mind at work.

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:54]:
So, yeah, yeah, I do recommend it. Even though, you know, I’m only 60% of the way through it. I’m quite confident that the last 40% is going to be amazing. And. And then I found out that he’s got a newer book called Impro for Storytellers that has more, like, exercises and things in it. So I asked for that for Christmas and I did get it for Christmas.

Nina Hart [01:20:13]:
You got it.

Nancy Norbeck [01:20:14]:
Yes.

Nina Hart [01:20:15]:
Will you send me your highlights from it? I want to read those. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [01:20:21]:
Or maybe we’ll have to do this again after I read that one.

Nina Hart [01:20:24]:
Yeah, we’ll go down that rabbit hole. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [01:20:27]:
Yeah.

Nina Hart [01:20:27]:
Awesome.

Nancy Norbeck [01:20:28]:
Cool. Well, thank you for joining me for this crazy, totally unpredictable conversation.

Nina Hart [01:20:34]:
Thank you. That’s my favorite type with mine, too. Another creative human being. I really, really loved it.

Nancy Norbeck [01:20:42]:
That’s our show. My thanks to Nina Hart and to you for listening. Please leave a review of the show and in it, tell us about your experience getting out of the way of your own creativity. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. I appreciate it so much. It really helps the show find new listeners. If this episode resonated with you, don’t forget to get in touch on any of my social platforms or even via [email protected] and tell me what you loved. And if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now and you haven’t yet signed up for my free email series on six of the most common creative beliefs that are messing you up, please check it out.

Nancy Norbeck [01:21:25]:
It’ll untangle those myths and help you get rolling again. You can find it at fycuriosity.com and there’s also a link right in your podcast app. See you there and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like follow your curiosity, please subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners. Thanks.