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My guest today is Father Michael Rossmann, Jesuit priest and creator of a video series offering perspectives and advice on life, many of which focus on creativity and aspects of the creative process. It’s easy to discount or just not even notice the spiritual side of creativity, but it’s there all the same. We talk about how he came to his interest in and advocacy for creative work, the pitfalls of perfectionism and the power of creative constraints, how creativity connects us to the divine (whatever you may conceive the divine to be), and the personal and spiritual benefits of creative practice.
Think about the people, the creatives who have influenced each one of us. We can contribute our own verse to this ongoing symphony.
Father Michael Rossmann
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Transcript: Father Michael Rossmann
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity, where we explore the inner workings of the creative process. I’m your host, Nancy Norbeck. My guest today is father Michael Rossmann, Jesuit priest and creator of a video series offering perspectives and advice on life, many of which focus on creativity and aspects of the creative process. It’s easy to discount or just not even notice the spiritual side of creativity, but it’s there all the same. We talk about how he came to his interest in an advocacy for creative work, the pitfalls of perfectionism and the power of creative constraints, how creativity connects us to the divine, whatever you may conceive the divine to be, and the personal and spiritual benefits of creative practice. Here’s my conversation with Michael Rossmann. Father Michael Rossmann, welcome to the podcast. I am really intrigued.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:03]:
I think this is gonna be an interesting and unusual conversation for this podcast, and that’s why I’m looking forward to it.
Father Michael Rossmannn [00:01:10]:
Thanks so much, Nancy. It’s great to be with you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:12]:
So I wanna start out for anybody who is stumbling on this podcast or has been listening for a while. You guys should know by now that I talk to a wide variety of people because there’s creativity everywhere. But because I have never talked to a priest before, I wanna be super clear that we’re not here today to teach religion, but I am really interested and increasingly so in the spiritual side of creativity. So I do not think that Father Rossmann will be the last religious person I’m speaking to here for a while, but I just wanted to make that crystal clear. And so I’m hoping, and I think that that you are too, Michael, that this is gonna be a super accessible conversation for everybody even though I’m sure we are gonna get into some religious stuff because how could we not?
Father Michael Rossmann [00:02:00]:
Absolutely. It’s, a delight to be the first, and I hope I’m not the last, but I’m looking forward to talking about creativity, and perhaps listeners might see that even from a priest, there might be some similarities.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:16]:
Yeah. Well, I have to admit that when I stumbled on your videos, and I’ll talk about that more a little bit later after we get into how you got started, I was pretty surprised at how much creativity you had there. There’s a reason why you’re here. But let’s go back to the beginning. How did you how did you end up deciding to be a priest? And were you a creative kid and do those things overlap?
Father Michael Rossmann [00:02:41]:
Great. I don’t know if I was particularly creative as a kid. I don’t know if I was particularly uncreative, as a kid. I grew up Catholic, but I long assumed that eventually I would, you know, have a family someday. It was really when I was in college when the question of becoming a Catholic priest emerged in a significant way, and I ended up joining the Jesuits, a group of Catholic priests and brothers just after I graduated from college. Then it was during my training to become a priest when I started doing writing at least in a public way, and then writing led to video eventually and, you know, different experiments in the creative process.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:39]:
Fair enough. So and you mentioned that you’re a Jesuit, and I wanted to give you a chance because I I mentioned to a friend the other night that I was gonna be interviewing a Jesuit priest on Sunday, and she said, so he’s not Catholic? And I thought, okay. We may need to clarify this for some people, so I wanna give you a chance to talk about exactly what that means.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:04:01]:
Absolutely. I frequently have this conversation. So, yes, there are two main, you could say, types of priests. The majority would be priests of a diocese, a a geographic area. But then the other main type of Catholic priest would be those who belong to groups, religious orders. Some of the most famous, religious orders would be the Franciscans, founded by Saint Francis of Assisi, or the Dominicans, and then for Saint Dominic, Or another large group of priests would be the Jesuits, the Society of Jesus founded by Saint Ignatius of Loyola, back in the 1500.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:03]:
How do Jesuits differ from the other groups? My non Catholic though, boy, if things had gone slightly differently in my family, I would have been. So I’m kind of fascinated by all of this anyway. My non Catholic perspective has always been that the Jesuits are the cool, brainy liberal priests, but, again, I’m gonna give you the chance to correct that if I’m wrong.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:05:27]:
I would say that is a fairly common view of us, and there is much truth to that perception. Perhaps especially in the United States, the Jesuits are most known for education. So there are 27 different Jesuit universities in the US. You may have heard of Georgetown or Boston College or the various Loyola’s, for example. Many Jesuits work in education either at a university or there’s a whole network of Jesuit high schools as well. So what that also means is that Jesuits through that work of education, and by no means are we only involved in schools, but that is, a significant place where we find ourselves. Through that work, we interact with all sorts of people. And so perhaps it’s not so surprising that a Jesuit priest would be on a podcast talking about creativity, and that we also, of course, serve at Catholic churches, at parishes.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:06:31]:
But through our various, as we would say, ministries, we interact with a wide range of people, Catholics and non Christians.
Nancy Norbeck [00:06:42]:
I have to say I am a former teacher, and one of my students went to Boston College. And I remember having a conversation with him, I think it was online, after he graduated or maybe he was still a student. And I was just so thoroughly blown away by the thoughtfulness of his comments. And when I said something to him, he said, yep. That’s the Jesuits. So so, yeah, I think you guys are doing something right. But you mentioned that you started writing, and I’m curious to hear more about that.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:07:18]:
Yes. So, you know, of course, as part of my education before I joined, the Jesuits, and then as part of my graduate education, as a Jesuit before I became a priest, you know, I was in the classroom and I had to do a lot of writing for school, but at a certain point I felt the desire to try to communicate in a more public way. I love being a Jesuit, I love being a Catholic, and I want to share that, with others, of course, in a in a respectful way, of course, in a way that, you know, it’s not going to be, you know, threatening to anyone. But I thought, let me let me experiment. Let me let me try it out. And, I first started writing for this tiny, tiny newspaper. Eventually, I started writing in some, slightly bigger publications, and then a group of young Jesuits started a blog called the Jesuit Post, that’s been around now for 10 years. And after a few years, I was in charge of that project, and that was another avenue to try to kind of communicate at the intersection of faith and pop culture.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:08:39]:
It was a really exciting project and it continues and others, have taken it over. And then as I was engaged in that project, however, I noticed that the media landscape was changing in really dramatic ways. You know, 10 years ago when we started this, not too many people were listening to podcasts. Even with something like writing, of course, people continue to write articles and I certainly continue to consume them. But I noticed how, so much was moving towards images and video and social media. So I also wanted to try to kind of experiment, in those media as well.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:21]:
That’s such an interesting take because, you know, most people that I talk to are doing it because, you know, I wanna write a book or I decided to write an essay about something, and and it isn’t so attached to a particular mission. It’s more just a personal expression thing. I don’t know if you’ve ever done the more personal side or pretty much everything you’ve written and produced has been out of the Jesuit lens, but I’m curious to hear if you have.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:09:54]:
Yeah. No. Great question. And, I mean, I very much resonate with those who are interested in, you know, wanting to get into creative pursuits just because, it’s life giving, because that’s certainly my experience as well. But in addition to my own, you know, personal interest, in this type of work, there has been kind of this, more foundational desire to to share the good news as we say. But I don’t see that in, opposition to that personal desire to create and explore and have a taste of of that abundant life that, that we also talk about.
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:43]:
Yeah. I think I think that’s important. I was I was thinking that if you had done some more personal writing, there might be some interesting comparisons there. But absolutely, I think no matter why you’re creating, there’s still a particular joy in that no matter what. I mean, unless you’re, you know, creating something for work that you don’t care about, which is a different story. But for most of us who are creating something regardless of the context, if we’re interested in it and we want to do it, there’s a reason for that. And it it does. I like that you called it life giving.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:16]:
I’ve been thinking in terms of the word aliveness a lot lately and I really do think that there is a lot to that. So and I wanna come back to that. But since you mentioned getting more into images and videos, since that’s how I found you, for for the listeners, the the way that I found Michael is that a friend of mine sent me your video on erring on the side of courage because he just thought that I would appreciate it. And I was like, yeah. This is really good. This is a great reminder that that, yes, erring on the side of courage is usually your your correct call. And then I’m not even sure it was more than a day later. I think YouTube, because my so and this is just to show you how interconnected everything online is, I think, because I’m not convinced this is a coincidence.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:09]:
The friend who sent the first video sent it to me on Instagram. The next day on YouTube, up comes this video called, of all things, follow your curiosity. And I’m looking at it, I’m going, this is the same guy, isn’t it? This has to be the same guy. And then I couldn’t remember where the first one came from. I finally found it. But on YouTube, I started poking around. And when I found the video called creative constipation, I was like, yeah. Okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:33]:
I need to talk to this guy. I don’t even know if I need to watch this, though I did. It was great. But I was like, I need to talk to this guy. And you have a lot of stuff up there that is specifically about creativity. Certainly not all of it. I’ll admit that this morning, I was poking around a little bit again, and I was a little scared when I saw the one called the toilet test, though it was great. So you’ve obviously found a way to talk about things that are helpful, not in a, you know, sort of like what I was saying before, not in a I’m trying to convert you, but here’s this perspective you might not have kind of way, even when it turns out that most people don’t actually know how a toilet works.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:18]:
And and I’m I’m fascinated and intrigued by all of that, particularly, obviously, the the creative side, but I also noticed, like, you have some that were called Jesuit life hacks, which I thought was a really interesting way to frame them. So how did you end up deciding that that’s what you wanted to talk about and how do you, you know, what’s your process for creating these things?
Father Michael Rossmann [00:13:42]:
Yeah. I think it was Steve Jobs who said creativity is really just connecting things. And, you know, I’m someone who reads a lot, and, of course, as a priest, I read many things in the religious or spiritual realm. But as someone who has many interests, I read or watch or listen to all sorts of other things as well. And, of course, it’s comfortable to consume all that great content. I listen to many podcasts when I am working out or going for a walk or driving or something like that. But it’s also going back to what we were talking about before, it’s also really life giving to try to create as well, to try to share what, you know, we are learning with other people. And, again, going back to that idea of creativity being connecting things, I realized that there are many priests who are talking about, religious topics, and I enjoy doing that as well.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:14:50]:
But I might be able to offer, an interesting combination of a person who may not normally be associated with, you know, talking about aspects like creativity, and to do that in a way where I have fun and it seems as if it resonates with at least some other people, as well.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:14]:
So when you set out to create a new video, and I’m assuming that video is primarily what you’re doing these days just because there were so many, but I may be wrong about that. How do you I mean, is it just something that that pops into your head while you’re out for a walk, or do you have, like, like, a list that you work from? Or how do you come up with them?
Father Michael Rossmann [00:15:35]:
Yes. So I have a few different avenues by which an idea might emerge, but the most common thing that I do is that when I am reading, I take many notes. And then I have a process whereby I regularly review the notes, that I have taken from the things that I have read, whether they’re books or articles or newsletters, and I will, you know, put sections in bold and then I might notice that wait that sort of relates to that other idea expressed by a different author, or that connects with a personal experience that I’ve had, or that actually reminds me of something from scripture, for example. And again, it’s going back to this idea of just making connections, and I have various documents on my computer where I just throw a bunch of ideas and over time I notice that certain themes emerge, and I started thinking, yeah, I bet I could make a video about that. And so video is the primary way that I communicate these days. I also have a Substack in which I share my minute long videos, but then also accompany them with a text that is related to the theme discussed, in those short videos. And having a lot of fun while doing it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:09]:
What’s the response been like?
Father Michael Rossmann [00:17:12]:
Yeah. The response has been really great. And particularly with video, there is something about seeing the humanity of the person through that medium. And so quite regularly, when people meet me in person for the first time, they might say, I’ve seen your videos. Or random strangers will come up to me at a coffee shop and give me a hug because they have seen my videos. Again, I think there is something about the personal connection that is able to be conveyed through the medium of video. Now again I’m someone who primarily reads and then I also listen to a lot of content as well. I, certainly am a fan of those ways of communicating, but there is something special that seems to occur through, video as well.
Nancy Norbeck [00:18:16]:
Did it take you a while to get used to being on camera? And I’m assuming you do the videos yourself, but I don’t know, maybe you have somebody who helps.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:18:27]:
No. I do the videos completely myself, and, that probably makes it easier as well that I’m just, kind of talking into the wind, well, until I publish it online, but, no one else is there to see me, you know, take multiple takes in order to produce one that, is going to work. I look back on some of my early videos and think, wow, they were so bad. And I hope that in a few years I look back at what I’m doing now, and I think, wow, that was pretty bad as well. So it definitely did take time to get used to it. I’m not exactly a shy person, but I have grown more and more comfortable in front of the camera as I’ve been doing this for several years now. And I hope that that process of improvement continues. And again while it is a little, you know, embarrassing to look back on old content, it’s really the only way we actually improve.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:19:39]:
The only way is through. The only way is through. I forget I think it was Alain de Botton who said, if we’re not embarrassed by who we were, you know, a year ago, that means we’re probably not learning enough. I apologize if I butcher that quotation, but it’s something to that effect.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:56]:
Yeah. That’s exactly the right idea. It’s funny because, you know, I definitely look back on old writing and things like that and think, whoa. You know, what was I thinking? How did I do this? You know, sometimes I even, I’ll admit, look at my master’s thesis for my MFA, and I, you know, pick it up and start reading it and go, whoo. There’s too many words in that sentence. How did they let me graduate?
Father Michael Rossmann [00:20:27]:
Sure. Sure. But I can only imagine, though, that you look back on some past content and realize, well, actually, that was pretty good, though, too.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:36]:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That I mean, and that’s not to say that I’m not proud of my thesis, because I am. But I there are the little nitty gritty, nitpicky things that that you look at and you go, oh, coulda edited that a little more. So and I think, you know, that’s an important part of the process, as you say, not only because it demonstrates growth, but because it’s never gonna be perfect. You know, nothing that we create is ever going to be perfect. And I think it’s probably attributed to someone whose name is lost to me if so, but, you know, there there’s a quote about how writing is never finished.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:16]:
It’s just abandoned. And I think there’s a great deal of truth to that because you do have to know, like, okay, I have done everything I can reasonably do with this and it’s time to let it go. Because if I don’t, I’m just gonna lose my mind trying to make it perfect. It’s just as good as it’s gonna be. Time to move on. So I don’t think we talk about that enough in the creative process.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:21:40]:
No. I wholeheartedly agree. And but what I would also say is that we get closer to perfection. We’re never gonna get there, but we get closer to perfection the more we actually create, the more we ship, the more we put stuff out there into the world, even though people might love it or they might hate it. We get better through the process. I made a video one time called the way to quality is through quantity, something to
Father Michael Rossmann [00:22:12]:
that effect.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:22:13]:
And, you know, it is stunning to look at so many of the masters, whether it’s in classical music or other, artistic realms. And, of course, we remember them for their masterpieces, but many of these people also created things that have not necessarily stood the test of time. But they were able to get to the point where they produced some gems exactly through that process of creating regularly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:48]:
Yeah. And I there’s a study about that, at least one, probably more than one. The one that I heard about, and I don’t remember the details of this anymore, was about photography where, you know, a one group was sent to, you know, come up with, like, the 10 best photos they could they could produce. And the other was just told, you know, take as many as you possibly can. And the the number of really good photos in the second group greatly exceeded the number from the first group because I think the first group probably got caught up in perfectionism and perceived pressure and were trying so hard that they missed great stuff, which the other folks were just like, hey. This is really awesome. I’m taking a picture of this and didn’t overthink it.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:23:35]:
Exactly. Exactly. And when we are creating very little or when we’re taking very, very few photos, we oftentimes get stuck on one way of doing something. It’s when we have multiple tracks, you know, multiple ways of taking a photo, multiple projects that we are working on, when we are just a little less mired in our own stuff. And oftentimes, that creativity is able to flow a little bit better. Initially, what that makes me think of too is that we are oftentimes so close to our work that we’re not necessarily the best at evaluating the quality of it. I know I certainly have had this experience and I’ve heard others talk about this as well that, you you know, sometimes I will make a video and think, alright, this one is great, and then it completely flops, you know, there’s just no resonance it seems, you know, people aren’t commenting on it, people aren’t viewing it and liking it, so on and so forth. Other times I think, oh, man, this one is not my best.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:24:50]:
And sometimes it it’s widely shared and people do seem to really like it. So we might get better at evaluating our work over time, but there’s always going to be an element of mystery. Not only because of the social media algorithms, but also because we’re just so close to our own work that we may not be able to see it objectively.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:16]:
Yeah. There’s a great line from Stephen Sondheim’s Sunday in the Park with George. I think it’s the final song in the show. It’s called “Move on,” and it’s “Stop worrying if your if your vision is true. Let others make that decision. They usually do.” And that has stuck with me since I was in high school. It’s like, yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:34]:
it’s not really my job to worry about that. That’s their job. It’s my job to just create the stuff and put it out there and see what happens.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:25:43]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, of course, it’s enjoyable when people seem to, you know, like what we do, but creating itself is, you know, valuable. And, I certainly find that the more I just relish the opportunity to try to create something and the less I worry about how it might be received. First of all, it’s more fun, and oftentimes too, it leads to better work.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:18]:
Yeah. I think that’s right. The less we think about it and the more fun we have with it, the better stuff we’re likely to produce. Not that everything is gonna be great just because we’re having fun with it, but I think there’s something that comes through when we are having fun and feeling the joy of doing the thing and have that, that greater into that into that a little bit because I’m curious what you see as the spiritual side of creativity and the whole aliveness effect and and all of all of that, which may go far beyond my ability to ask a question about it. So I’m just gonna let you run with that.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:27:07]:
Sure. Yeah. Certainly, from the Judeo Christian perspective, you know, we believe that, okay, we are created in the image and likeness of God. First of all, that verb is important. We are created,
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:22]:
you know,
Father Michael Rossmann [00:27:23]:
by the creator. But what that also means is that we are invited to be co creators in a sense, if we really are created in the image, of God. And that that that that spark, that invitation to to create, to build, is in each one of us. Additionally, from a perhaps Christian perspective, you know, I believe that, okay, Christ, okay, rose from the dead and, you know, after his ascension, you know, he kinda took the training wheels off and said, alright, you know, now be my disciples in the world, be my hands and feet in the world. And I see how part of doing that is through the work of creation. Now, of course, as you know, someone who was Christian, I don’t believe that I’m the center of the world, you know, we are not God, but we have this awesome responsibility and invitation to continue to, you know, use the gifts that we have been given to to serve others, to to give glory to God, and to, you know, try to make our world or at least, you know, our communities and our families and so forth, a little bit better.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:52]:
It’s interesting as you’re saying that. There’s a couple of directions that I wanna go in that I can’t do both at the same time, but, I’ll start here. I had an experience while I was meditating a little bit more than a year ago where I suddenly understood that it’s such a hard thing to try to put into words, but I sort of saw it as, like, we are each this spark of the divine creative life force, whatever you wanna call it, whether that’s God or the universe or something else, I’m not gonna presume to say. And that when we use that spark, we’re more connected with that overarching creative force, and that’s why we feel more alive and feel more joy because I’ve it it seemed to me like, well, that’s why we’re here, right, is to do this, which is kind of what you just said framed a little bit differently. And I don’t know if that resonates with you in any particular way because it’s like, okay. Maybe, you know, like, not God, but a piece of God.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:30:04]:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think what you just expressed does resonate in, in so many ways, that of course, I don’t want to, you know, pretend as if everyone sees things exactly the same way, but, it is quite pleasantly surprising at times to see how there are oftentimes parallel experiences in, you know, different religious traditions or religious and non religious traditions. People might come to similar places perhaps from different, different starting points. Additionally, I mean, okay, as as a, as a Christian, I believe that everyone is, you know, created in the image and likeness of God, or in your language, everyone has that that divine spark. And what that also means is that, you know, I can learn from others, I can, you know, benefit from the creation of others, I do not have to be limited to those of my particular, you know, church or tribe or whatever it might be that, those who may see the world or may see why we are all here differently can still make their own contribution to our, our shared world?
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:35]:
Yeah. I like that. And it bringing this up, you know, when I had that experience, which is still almost hilarious to me because I am not a good meditator. I don’t know what happened that day, but I wrote it down as soon as I was done. And I’m so glad that I did because I sort of retain the general sense of it. But when I go back and read what I wrote, it lights up for me all over again. And, you know, one of the things that was striking to me because I just reread it this morning, is that, you know, we have this spark, but we forget that we have it. You know, we lose it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:18]:
You know, I mean, I think every kid has it because it hasn’t been drilled out of them yet, and I think that that’s part of the problem. You know, you’re told, oh, it’s not you’re too old to play now or you can need to get serious or whatever. But I’m also thinking, and this was the other thing that was coming up for me earlier, you know, I remember in my, you know, medieval literature classes, hearing how, you know, Chaucer copied Boccaccio, if I’m remembering that name right, because it was considered, like, the height of arrogance, if not worse, to create your own thing because God was the only one who was allowed to create something. And I’m just thinking out loud wondering what you think, you know, it seems to me like that was sort of a disservice to that spark if that’s what we’re here to do. And how do we, because it’s clearly still functioning in our society. I encounter so many people who swear to me up and down that they’re not creative. I’m like, funny, you seem to be breathing. And, you know, so we’ve got this mental block around it, and it’s so easy to lose it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:33:26]:
So how first, what do you think about that? And then we’ll talk about how we maybe can get it back.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:33:33]:
Yeah. So I you’re onto something now. I don’t know the particular circumstances around, you know, the anecdote you shared from from Chaucer. You know, what I would say is that I would certainly argue that, you know, so much of the great creative output has oftentimes come out of particular traditions. You know, I made a video one time talking about how constraints can foster creativity. That if we have all the time in the world, if we have, you know, just no direction about what to produce, it’s oftentimes difficult to have an idea. But if we are grounded in a particular tradition, whether that’s a religious tradition or some other tradition, and we are inspired by those who have come before us, you know, it might provide some scaffolding for our own creative process, to use the best from the past and then, you know, try to bring it into our own personal experience, try to bring it into the context of our day, for example. Or, you know, another classic, example of this constraints fostering creativity is, you know, telling someone to, you know, tell me a joke, and I know I struggle to remember any sort of joke.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:35:10]:
But if someone says, tell me a knock knock joke, instantly I can think of a few. That having kind of those specifications, kind of having a framework with which to work, oftentimes can allow one to create from a particular tradition.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:33]:
Yeah. It’s interesting that you mentioned that kind of structure because so many creatives just like bristle at the idea of any kind of structure at all. And yet it really can enhance and even accelerate that process if you just, you know, see it as a personal challenge even and say, oh, I’m gonna write a story and I’m not gonna use the letter e, which has been done. I’m in awe of these people. It’s not easy.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:36:00]:
Right. And, I mean, this somewhat relates to the role of, passion or motivation. I think some creative types might think, well, I just have to wait until, you know, I’m feeling it, until I’m motivated, until I’m passionate about a particular topic. I think others would say, and I would be in this camp, that create anyway. Even if you aren’t feeling particularly motivated, even if you aren’t feeling particularly passionate, oftentimes that passion or that motivation is not there at the beginning. It’s what flows from the actual work of creativity. It’s kind of the the the progress, the initial, you know, spark, the initial, you know, work that can then kind of kick that passion or motivation, into gear.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:59]:
Yeah. I agree with that. And I also think it’s important just because kinda like what we were saying before, you know, if you’re taking the photos all the time as opposed to focusing, you know, on the perfect photo, creating crap still feels better than not creating anything.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:37:14]:
At least you did something,
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:16]:
you know, and it might inspire something else. You never know. It’s worth doing it anyway.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:37:22]:
Absolutely. And, you know, thinking about your, you know, thesis that you’re writing before, you know, oftentimes I as we were talking about before, I look back on stuff that I did in the past and like, oh, wow, that was so bad. But other times, I look back at, you know, work that I did and thought, wow, that was actually pretty decent. And I remember that the process to create that was not necessarily linear, But it began with throwing a bunch of crap on the screen and then going back through that crap and, you know, panning for gold and keep, you know, going back to it day after day. And in the process, something that’s not so crappy can be produced, even though there was no way I could have done that on day 1.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, I think the other thing about going back and looking at our things and saying, oh, wow. That’s really bad. Or what you were saying before about you don’t know how something will resonate. You post the video that you think is not that great, and all of a sudden people are all over it is like, yeah. Don’t get caught up in your own idea of perfect because you don’t know.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:47]:
It could be the imperfection in it that’s part of why the thing that you thought was terrible resonates with somebody else. And it could also be that your attempt to make something so perfect is why people aren’t responding to it. It’s just not quite real enough. So I feel like that’s a great a great prescription or something like a prescription for avoiding perfectionism at all costs.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:39:13]:
I really agree with that. And, you know, I heard someone use the language of business casual video, and I like this. As a way of saying, okay. It doesn’t have to be a black tie affair. You know, put something out there that, yeah, is more than respectable, but also, there’s an element of humanity that is just so attractive. And if we try to iron out all of the wrinkles, first of all, we’re not gonna produce much. And then secondly, we might lose that human connection as well. So this does not mean that we publish every crazy thought that enters our heads.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:40:00]:
Okay. We need to do some editing, but we should not be afraid to also share our humanity. And it’s that humanity that might resonate the most.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:11]:
I agree with that. I think the more the more we show that we are human and embrace the fact that we’re human, the better we’re gonna be as humans and the better the stuff we’re gonna create.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:40:24]:
Yeah. And it’s more fun.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:26]:
It is more fun. And I I it’s reminding me of one of my favorite stories about Ella Fitzgerald, who I just adore. You know, she fell on stage one time, and she just made fun of herself. You know, she said, oh, that’s alright. I’ll just sing from down here, you know, and came back for the second, the second half after the intermission and started with “I fell for you” and just ran with it because why not? Which is so much better than so many other things she could have done and so human. And I’m sure that everyone who was there just absolutely loved it. So, you know, the relentless pursuit of perfection as the old car ad used to say, is not necessarily your friend.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:41:10]:
Right. Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:12]:
So what do you think about how we lose our connection with that divine spark or the piece of God that’s in us, and how do we reconnect with it? Is it is it a societal thing, do you think? Is it a more individual thing?
Father Michael Rossmann [00:41:30]:
Oh, I think there are individual elements, but there are definitely societal elements as well. Perhaps one of the biggest obstacles is hard distraction. You know, there are many creatives out there, and while we can, enjoy their work, sometimes we can go down a rabbit hole of consumption of others’ work and just get so distracted that we lose our bearings in a sense. So turning our phones off, you know, putting them in do not disturb mode, whatever it might be, and making a regular practice, whether it’s prayer or meditation or creative work where we are, you know, trying to reconnect with whatever language we wanna use, that divine spark, that childlike spirit that is still in each one of us somewhere, or, you know, whether it’s reconnecting with, you know, the the the god who created us. Whatever language we might use, I think there are different practices that can reconnect us, can help us to get our bearings once again.
Nancy Norbeck [00:43:00]:
It’s interesting because as soon as you started talking, I thought, well, if we’re going to call the the source of the creative spark, if we’re going to assume that it’s God, then it’s not really surprising that all of the things that you’re saying are things that you would hear about in a religious context, which of course makes sense because you are in a religious context. But yeah. And it’s, it’s fascinating to me how I think distraction in particular affects us on so many levels even beyond the creative. And it’s almost impossible to avoid it anymore, but I feel like there are so many things to be gained. Sometimes I play this game with myself where I think, do I remember what it was like before we had phones in our pockets and could get answers to things in seconds? Because I certainly as soon as I have a question, I am reaching for Google. And, you know, there was a time when you just had to live with not knowing. And I’m not convinced that that wasn’t better for us in many ways. I mean, among other things, that’s a great way if you’re not knowing is about your own situation or your own life.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:11]:
It’s a great way to tap into the power of your own subconscious mind and your intuition is to wonder without the hope of having an answer and see what comes up eventually. You don’t get that with the instant gratification that is Google.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:44:27]:
Correct. Correct. Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree. And, you know, perhaps another element I would bring to this as well is that, you know, we are meant to be with others. We are, you know, communal beings, and both for the creative process, but also for our own well-being, you know, we’re not meant to to do this alone. And so, of course, from a religious perspective, there is a tremendous value in getting together, you know, once a week with people from your community to sing, to exchange peace, to break bread together, but also in the creative process. You know, we do not do this alone.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:45:21]:
There is a value in having conversations like this. There is a value in not putting a bushel basket. Sorry. That’s another scriptural image. Not putting a bushel basket, over the gifts that we have been given, but trying to share them with the world and perhaps pleasantly discovering a community in the process. You know, I we all stand on the shoulders of of giants, you know, think about the you mentioned Ella Fitzgerald, think about the people, the creatives who have influenced each one of us, and we can, you know, contribute our own verse to this, ongoing, symphony, you could say. And, yeah, I mean, I certainly have found that when I try to communicate, what it is I’m learning and thinking about, trying to communicate those connections between these different things that I am consuming, I deepen in my own understanding, and I, yeah, experience, you know, life in the process of trying to kind of share these gifts that I have received.
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:39]:
You’ve just reminded me that at some point, multiple times, I guess, in the last year, the song, this little light of mine from, you know, Sunday school when I was a kid has popped into my head, and I’ve thought, I think they were teaching us about the creative spark back then, and I don’t think they knew it, and I didn’t know it. And, you know, there’s that whole hide it under a bushel line. I’m thinking, awful lot of us are hiding it under a bushel, and we may not even know we’re doing it.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:47:09]:
Right. Right. No. Absolutely. And, you know, I think about our world today, perhaps in a particular And I don’t think there’s enough creation. I don’t think there’s enough contribution. And I’m just tired of, you know, the contempt and criticism. Admittedly, I can fall into it as much as the next person, but I do see a hunger for contribution.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:47:52]:
And for those of us who are trying to do it in our small ways, I think we all know that experience of how this is a more fulfilling life when we try to build up rather than just tear down, when we try to let our little lights shine.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:08]:
Yeah. I agree. So I’m wondering because this is going in a completely different direction here, but you’re from Iowa, and now you are in Rome. And I’m not sure how long you’ve been in Rome, but I’m wondering how that change of scene has influenced how you see the world and your creative process.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:48:34]:
Great question. So I have been in Rome for a little over 5 months, but I have lived, abroad several times before. I was in, East Africa for a few years and spent semesters in South America and Europe in the past, and many of my really close friends are from different parts of the world. And I cannot help but think that those international experiences, those times when I’ve just kind of been shaken out of, my norm or perhaps the particular way of seeing that, you know, I grew up with, it has facilitated the creative process. Even when I started really doing writing in a public way, for the first time, at least in a in a serious way, was when I was abroad. There is something about even if I’m writing about the US context, being able to get some distance from that context, you know, or rather than being just the the fish who’s not aware of the water in which he swims, Having an outsider’s perspective of sorts has allowed me to, yeah, to create in some way. And, initially, if creativity is connecting things by having experiences in different parts of the globe, just been exposed to many more things, and there’s there are more tools to draw from.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:28]:
Yeah. I didn’t realize that you’d been in so many other places too, but I have to think that that, you know, especially in a place that’s as different as East Africa. The cultures are so unlike anything you would find here has to give you a whole wide range of perspective that you just did not have before. I’m really jealous.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:50:53]:
Yeah. No. It’s, I’ve been really, really, really fortunate. And and, of course, there are ways for all of us to be exposed to, you know, differences wherever we might be, and with the the gift of the Internet, and things like podcasts and, online videos and so forth, we can experience, at least in some way, of course, it’s not the same as living in a different place, but we can experience the richness of different cultures, in ways that we could not have imagined, you know, 30 years ago.
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:33]:
Right. And especially in the last two years of not really being able to go anywhere, it’s been a whole lot better than, you know, feeling completely stuck. So I’m grateful for that that kind of perspective that we get online. So I have one other thing that I wanted to ask you, which is, I know that you want to meet Tina Fey, and I’m just curious what it is about Tina Fey that makes that a goal for you. Because she is such an intensely creative person, and I don’t know if that has anything to do with it.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:52:11]:
I think that is a big part of it, and she’s just hilarious. And, I mean, there are certain people who, you know, just kinda have our number when it comes to humor, and she is one of those people for me. I find her absolutely hilarious and human, and she’s another Midwesterner, at heart, perhaps that might be some element of it as well. But, you know, I would be a horrendous comedian. That is not my gift. But I appreciate those who let their light shine, and she is someone who has certainly done that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:54]:
Fair enough. So is there anything else that you feel like we should talk about on the subject of spirituality and creativity before we call it an episode?
Father Michael Rossmann [00:53:07]:
You know, nothing really really comes to mind right now, but this has been wonderful to talk about, Nancy. And, you know, so frequently, I am learning from creative types, but then communicating in more religious spaces when I, you know, preach, all the time at church, for example. It’s wonderful now to be able to talk with you and talk in this more creative space.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:42]:
Well, I’m thrilled to have had the chance to talk to you today, and, you know, I hope that people who are listening have got a new perspective on creativity from this conversation, for sure. Thank you so much for coming.
Father Michael Rossmann [00:53:56]:
It’s great to be with you. Thank you, Nancy.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:59]:
That’s this week’s episode. My thanks to father Michael Rossmann and to you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please do leave a review and share it with a friend. Thanks so much. You can find show notes, the 6 creative beliefs that are screwing you up, and more at fycuriosity.com. I’d also love for you to join the conversation on Instagram. You’ll find me at f y curiosity. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:27]:
If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners. See you next time.