My guest today is Michael Hearns, a veteran law enforcement officer whose experience includes working undercover with Miami’s vice, intelligence, and narcotics unit—yes, like Miami Vice—and has also worked as a technical consultant on a variety of movies and tv shows. These days, Michael is the author of the Cade Taylor police thrillers, including Trust No One. We talk about his law enforcement career, how realistic police shows (including Miami Vice) actually are, and his dedication to authenticity in his novels. We also take on the realities of the creative life vs. its portrayal on screen, and why it’s worth answering your creative call anyway.
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Transcript
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. My guest today is Michael Hearns, a veteran law enforcement officer whose experience includes working undercover with Miami’s Vice Intelligence and Narcotics Unit. Yes. Like Miami Vice, and has also worked as a technical consultant on a variety of movies and TV shows.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:35]:
These days, Michael is the author of the Cade Taylor police thrillers, including trust no one. We talk about his law enforcement career, how realistic police shows, including Miami Vice, actually are, and his dedication to authenticity in his novels. We also take on the realities of the creative life versus its portrayal on screen, and why it’s worth answering your creative call anyway. Here’s my conversation with Michael Hearns. Michael, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Michael Hearns [00:01:03]:
Thank you, Nancy. Thank you for having me here. I really appreciate it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:06]:
Sure. So I start everybody off with the same question, which is, were you a creative kid, or did you find your creative side later on in your life?
Michael Hearns [00:01:19]:
No. I I think I think there was a creative, stream in me for as a child. In many ways, I worked and functioned in different organizations that didn’t always allow for creativity. So sometimes that creativity came out in the in the framework of what I was doing. But as far as, like, the actual flow in of literature or art or music or something, that kinda came later in life.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:46]:
Okay. So you weren’t busy writing stories when you were a little kid?
Michael Hearns [00:01:52]:
No. I was telling stories. I wasn’t I wasn’t really writing them. No. You know, as a child, my whole existence was playing soccer and running around in the neighborhood with neighbor kids. So homework got a very passing glance from me and, out out the door I went. But I did draw a lot in class and doodle, and I don’t know if that was a sign of an of an absent mind or not or a sign of creativity that needed to come out. But, I didn’t write stories as a child.
Michael Hearns [00:02:25]:
No. No. Not at all.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:27]:
Okay. So before you started writing stories, you had a totally different career. And I’m hoping that you will tell us how that came to be, and then we’ll get into how you started writing.
Michael Hearns [00:02:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. My back my background is is a little varied compared to most people. Actually, coming out of college, my first true love was aviation marketing, and I worked in aviation industry in marketing. And then when there were downturns and downsizing and there was also just a whole lot of deregulation in the industry, I found myself needed and wanted a recession proof job. So I I stepped into law enforcement, not something I wanted to do as a child and then have any aspiration to do that as a young man. And very quickly found myself, in South Florida, in Miami, Florida, and working, in a street drug crime task force doing street narcotics. And then, very quickly within eight or seven months, migrated into Vice Intelligence Narcotics bin, which is, like, for for for your audience, if I could give you an analogy, it’s like the old Miami Vice.
Michael Hearns [00:03:44]:
That that was the real Miami Vice. And I did that for ten years, and I was undercover in the, 19 and Cali drug cartels, working large scale cocaine, deals and money lot lot lots of high volume money laundering cases as well. And, you know, two months became two years, and two years became twenty years. And before you knew it, it was time to retire. And upon retiring, I started working, in film and TV as a technical adviser on, various products for A and E and NBC, and then, kind of parlayed some of that experience into the literature world. I got told a lot I should write a book. I think most people are expecting me to write some sort of tell all. I really didn’t feel that was where I wanted to be.
Michael Hearns [00:04:38]:
So, I created a fictional character. I started writing a fictional series of books about a character named Kay Taylor. He’s a detective in Miami, and he’s oftentimes next and challenged with some pretty serious things. And, I wrote my first book called Trust No One that came out about three years ago. And the second book that quickly followed after that was called Grasp and Smoke, a Kate Taylor novel. And then the third book was, One More Move, a Kate Taylor novel.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:07]:
So first of all, I’m sure that everybody asks you this, but I’m curious to know how you feel about the Miami Vice comparison. How how realistic was or wasn’t Miami Vice compared to what you actually did? Actually
Michael Hearns [00:05:23]:
did? Well, it’s really strange because for us who lived and worked in South Florida, it was a normalcy, a skewed normalcy and a normalcy that had some serious crazy ramifications to it. So when the national and then we have dogs. So so when the national and the international public, got a glimpse of Miami Vice, it was a very stylized version of what we were doing. But there is a case where life and art imitate each other, and then they start to intertwine with each other and then eventually meld together. So in the beginning, it was, not as stylized. But by the end of my career, we were also driving very expensive cars, and I I spent a lot of time in New York, a lot of time in Los Angeles working. And, it it it really became a a situation of life and art coming together.
Nancy Norbeck [00:06:28]:
Mhmm.
Michael Hearns [00:06:29]:
So the version you see, I would say, is is is very stylized and is also very, amped up, but there’s also a lot of truth in that component as well.
Nancy Norbeck [00:06:41]:
Okay. Well and and truth is something that I wanted to ask you about because since you have worked as a consultant for film and TV, I know my one of my cousins is married to a now retired Massachusetts state trooper, and she’s told me that it’s impossible to watch a police show with him because he will shout back at the TV about all the things that they’re doing wrong. And I’m just curious what kind of things you’re asked about as a technical consultant and how much say you have in how those things are portrayed for the rest of us.
Michael Hearns [00:07:14]:
That that really has a lot to do with the confidence and the leeway that producers, the showrunners, and the director allow you to have. In my case, I I literally was cast right into the fire. I was working on a on a movie in Cornwall, New York, kinda West Of The Hudson. And I got a phone call. Can you be in Pittsburgh tomorrow to work on this NBC TV show? And right away the next morning I showed up on set and within six or seven minutes of being there I was asked to coordinate and choreograph an entire shooting scene of guns. When I say shooting, I mean actual guns and such And the actors, they’re prepped to a point, but there’s nuances to everything in life. And the longer you do something, the more you understand these nuances, shortcuts, these asper aspects. And that was work with some really good directors.
Michael Hearns [00:08:15]:
The directors I’ve worked with have done a lot of television, a lot of Hawaii five o, a lot of 24, a lot of home in. So they’re used to, this type of high speed action. So I was able to impart a lot of stuff that they really hadn’t seen before, and I was happy about that. I was actually surprised, to be honest with you. I thought everyone knew these things, and they really didn’t. There is a sophisticated audience out there now. There’s no longer just this pure acceptance of, oh, it’s Dragnet, and these two guys are gonna get in the car and they’re gonna drive down Los Angeles, and then they’re gonna go interview this woman, and they’re gonna find out what her purse is. The audience is more sophisticated now, and then that kinda goes with the books I’ve been writing, and trust no one, grasp no smoke, one more move.
Michael Hearns [00:09:01]:
I try to bring an element in the books that you don’t normally see in books and in movies. The the books I write are incredibly authentic, but they’re not boringly authentic. I mean, every every job is because it’s boring side to it. I try to bring in, elements that the reader, does not see. And because I worked in film and TV, I write from a cinematic point of view. I’m not the type of writer who’s going to say, oh, you know, me and Nancy, we got in the car, and we drove to Kansas City. And then when we got there, and we checked into the hotel, and Nancy talked to the Bellman. I’m like, well, wait a minute.
Michael Hearns [00:09:39]:
Hold on. What did you do when you drove? What did you stop? What did you eat? What did you see? So I bring a lot of description into my books and also a lot of research. Everything is very authentic. And one of the things that, like, in in relation to your brother-in-law, the the former Massachusetts state police officer, when we Miamians used to watch Miami Bison, we would go Because they would make a left hand turn, and then the next time they turn, they’d be, like, literally, like, 18 miles apart. And we knew that. So in my books, from a geographical point of view, from a chronological point of view, everything’s very accurate. When they order something from a menu, it actually comes from the menu of the restaurant. When they the the the the the the cars they drive, the phones they use, the things they do are all very authentic.
Michael Hearns [00:10:29]:
Nothing is is just made up. You know? There is no I turned down Maple Street. I went to Elm Avenue, and we went down Birch Road. It’s they’re actual streets, actual places. And then my next door neighbor, reads my books and holds Google Maps open while she reads it. And she and she and she and she plots. You know? Okay. They went here, they went there, and they went there.
Michael Hearns [00:10:49]:
Yeah. So so yeah. The audience is sophisticated. Don’t don’t don’t underestimate that. They they know the hardware. They know weaponry. They know some semblance of tactics. So you have to kinda bring an element that they haven’t seen or heard before.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:04]:
That’s interesting, the comparison. I had not thought about I hadn’t thought to go back as far as something like Dragnet and think about how how police work portrayal has changed over time. But Yeah. But, certainly, if you go back that far, you don’t even have to think about it really at all. Whereas if you’re comparison comparing something like Miami Vice or Hill Street Blues to, you know, something that’s out now, it doesn’t seem like it’s as as different, but I’ll bet that it’s more different than I would guess at first blush.
Michael Hearns [00:11:35]:
Yeah. It it it from a television point of view, but, like, every time the radio came on, they would show a close-up of the radio. Like, we the audience couldn’t couldn’t put it. And what’s interesting about Hill Street Blues is people don’t realize this. Hill Street Blues, the first year, were based on all Miami stories. The very first every episode was based on true Miami cases. And, two people’s, former Miami Dade police officer was a technical adviser, which is what I was doing with the other shows. And that’s when they’re very open and they say, when you hear the dispatcher talk, take a take a call on People’s Drive.
Michael Hearns [00:12:09]:
That’s a little homage to him that he had helped him with that. So, Miami Vice had very good technical advisers too. Some of them I actually worked with in the field. So those two shows were given, good technical advisers. They had good technical advisers. Even though they’re stylized and some of the plots were, a little outrageous, they were still you have to remember, it’s it’s even though it’s sixty minutes to television and truthfully is forty eight minutes with commercials and forty eight minutes, we gotta figure out if there’s a bad situation, figure out if there’s a bad guy, and we gotta catch the bad guy. Life isn’t like that in real life, and that’s why, my books, which are no. My right hand, left hand.
Michael Hearns [00:12:51]:
That’s why my books, which are behind me, are all, like, 330, 340 pages because they things don’t get wrapped up in forty eight minutes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I before we delve more into the books, I I am wondering, since you said that that you, you know, you’ve kind of been on both sides of this technical advisor thing, how is how is the one side different than the other? Or how did how did working with the people from Miami Vice influence how you took on that that role in other contexts?
Michael Hearns [00:13:23]:
Well, as a technical adviser for a film or TV show, you wanna bring as much authenticity and realism as you can, but you have to also keep them back in mind as entertainment. And directors will come up to you and they’ll say, I want the lead character to do this. And you look in your head, you’ll go that would never happen. And then the director will say, I I know that that doesn’t happen, but I need a jeopardy moment. And so you have to kinda suspend your own, logic and recognize that this is television. This is entertainment. So there’s gonna have to be a meld in there. It may have to be an amalgamation of what you’re bringing from an authentic side and what they need from an entertainment side.
Michael Hearns [00:14:12]:
So, luckily for me, a good cast, good people, well known actors. Directors were amazing. So I I was able to bring a lot to them and for them, and in return, it’s been another good product.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:27]:
Fair enough. So did doing technical advising work inspire the books that you ended up writing, or are that is that a totally different piece of of process and work for you?
Michael Hearns [00:14:41]:
No. I I would kinda call it an ignition point. I was living in Miami, but I was working sometimes out of Manhattan, and then I was also part time living in Malibu. So, you know, all along the airplane trips back and forth and all along sitting on the sets. So people think being technical advisor is super glamorous, and I I can understand that. Truthfully, I spend most of my time staying around with a bunch of teamsters watching them vape. You know, I just no. It’s like I you know, when I’m needed, I’m needed.
Michael Hearns [00:15:13]:
But, you know, I’m not always needed for, you know, a bedroom scene or for some some other scene. So there’s time to think. There’s time to reflect and time to, collaborate in your own head. And since the the first book, Trust No One, had been kicking around inside my head for about a decade. So in between working on the TV shows, there’s some downtime, and I thought, well and I remember I was sitting up, in Malibu, and that’s when I first started, Trust No One. And then they went in the suitcase with me, and as I made my travels and my my trips around places, it just got bigger and bigger until it became a book. And, I had an idea for a second book, but the main character in in my books is a detective named Cade Taylor, and there’s been such a demand for Kade. There really is a legion of Kade Taylor people out there that, really, galvanized the character.
Michael Hearns [00:16:15]:
In a classic case, you give people what they want, continue to write the series, and now we have been technically speaking the franchise.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:23]:
Yeah. So did Cade kind of come to you? And I don’t know. Maybe he wasn’t the first thing that came to you, but, I I’m just curious to kind of see how how this first story kind of materialized for you. Was he somebody that was, you know, largely based on people you know or or on yourself? Or did he just kind of arrive more or less fully formed in your head and say, hi. Let’s write a book.
Michael Hearns [00:16:51]:
Yeah. That’s that’s a very good question, and I would have to say it’s it’s a collage of all of that. I I was doing some documentary work with, Rancatore, which is, actually, they have a a piece premiering today on Hulu. They did cocaine cowboys and all, so I did some work with them. And there’s a there’s a fascination with that lifestyle, and there’s a fascination with Miami. Miami is a city that you may not have lived in it, but you may have at least visited. And, like, Chicago, New York, or Los Angeles, it can do well for a backdrop. People are people are still very intrigued with the narcotic world.
Michael Hearns [00:17:35]:
They’re they’re they’re intrigued with the men and women who are on either side of that line. And I had the opportunity to have a very spy optic view of that world. I not only lived in it, I also helped to create it, and I learned to thrive in it. And then I also learned how to exit from it, which is even more important. And what’s interesting is people people who do know me will read the books, and they’ll call me on the phone and they’ll say, hey. I I’m on page two ten. I I I don’t know what that means. I have no idea what that means.
Michael Hearns [00:18:09]:
I know I don’t know what that means. Let me see. Two ten. Yeah. I gotta read. And I’ll say, well, it helps if you what what’s going on? And they go, oh, well, you just did this, and you just did that. And I go, it’s not me. It’s Kate Pittman.
Michael Hearns [00:18:26]:
And they go, yeah. Yeah. I know about you. And I go, no. It’s it’s Kate Taylor. So I was able to bring in experiences from my life into these characters, and there’s and then there’s an there’s a elongation and a like, Taffy, you’re pulling it and you’re pulling you know, the center is realism, and then you’re pulling in all these other things. And just like in a TV show, you have to bring elements in to make it exciting for the reader. So, I won’t call it embellishment, but it’s part of it’s part of the telling of the story.
Michael Hearns [00:18:58]:
And, in my books, once again, everything that’s referenced and mentioned, it could be something political, it could be something sports related, those things really happened on those days. So not only can you hold my book up and read it, but you can actually know what day it is and what year it is by the actual events are going on. So it’s almost as if while you were living your life, Kaye Taylor was amongst you doing things, but just unbeknownst to you. So I’m giving you kind of once again, using the words bioptic. I’m giving you a bioptic view of this world that would say you probably are cycling around. You just didn’t realize.
Nancy Norbeck [00:19:37]:
Mhmm. I’m fascinated by how that intersects with the fact that this is still fiction. Like, I I had a conversation last year with an author named Sarah Fine who writes psychological thrillers and is a psychologist. And she mentioned to me that her rule is that, you know, it has to be psychologically accurate. And so that is a huge influence on how she how she looks at the whole project. And, obviously, that is a huge lens for you too. But how do you bridge that with the things that kind kind of like what you were referring to with the the TV director and saying I need my Jeopardy moment? You know, how how do you bridge that?
Michael Hearns [00:20:28]:
Well, you know, to dovetail what Sarah was telling you is you’re you’re trying to, bring your readers into this world that they may not ever be exposed to. But in the same respect, you don’t wanna lecture them, and you don’t wanna make this an educational textbook. So through the art of storytelling and through the art of writing, you’re not only bringing them along this journey, but you’re also bringing them along this this this path of knowledge. And so, people are coming up to me now, and they’re saying I had, you know, I I had no idea that that’s what that life was like. And, they’re seeing that Kate Taylor you know, Kate is not a perfect individual. He he starts out in trust no one at the very the very front part of a very vicious divorce, and he’s he’s emotionally shattered by it. And he’s trying to hold it all together, and he’s trying to keep it together, his emotions and his his pension for drinking. He’s trying to keep all that under wraps while he is in this very intense ice narcotics situation.
Michael Hearns [00:21:45]:
And then as the books progress, paid is continuously still dealing with the divorce. So though he’s not stuck in one location, he’s moving along that situation. And if you’ve ever I I I’m sure at at at both our stands as a life, we may have experienced loss, and it could be a divorce or a death or whatever it may be. We recognize that that’s not a one and done. There is a healing process, and there’s a grieving process, and there’s a there’s a whole gamut of emotions. And then throughout these three books, and soon to be the fourth one, we were watching Cade as he maneuvers through his life and how he manages these things, Yet he still has to stay in the game. He can’t just say, hey. I don’t feel good today.
Michael Hearns [00:22:27]:
I’m I’m I I gotta check out. And not only does he stay in the game, but the game is actually coming to him. And he has to really, be be as sharp as he can be even though he would love to just, you know, sit in the swimming pool and have a drink. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:44]:
Well and I would think in particular, you know, you mentioned being undercover for so long that that that has to be, I mean, that’s a situation you can’t just say, sorry. It’s 05:00. I’m going home now. Going back to my own life. That’s gotta be incredibly, incredibly stressful. And I’m curious to know how your experience with that influences how you portray that with Cade.
Michael Hearns [00:23:08]:
Well, I think I think, yeah, there’s, there’s, a police between, Cade and I in that respect. And as as Michael Hearns, I I feel good phone calls from, you know, some very nefarious people at my father’s hospital bedside, my son’s hospital bedside. I, you know, I I I became a professional time thief. I stole from work to to do family things. I stole my family time to do work things. You you it was twenty four seven. There are many times the phone rang at 03:00 in the morning, and I rolled out of bed, and I had to get going. There were times when I would have breakfast at a waterside restaurant in Miami and have dinner that night in Los Angeles with no intention of being in Los Angeles.
Michael Hearns [00:23:58]:
I would, you know, I was supposed to pick the kids up at school, and now I’m calling from, you know, in my time, the Airphone, the remember CPR phone? Mhmm. I’m calling from Airphone saying I’m on my way to LaGuardia. I always had to have winter clothes, in my in my car, in in in winter in case I had to leave Miami. So, yeah, there there’s a lot of, it was very stressful, but I I tell people all the time, it was it was very much like being in a hurricane. I mean, you’re in the center of a hurricane. It’s very calm. It’s all the stuff that’s swirling around you. It’s when you step out of the hurricane or you travel through the eye wall of the hurricane, you realize the destruction and the debris.
Michael Hearns [00:24:41]:
And it was coming out of that lifestyle that you look back and you see, for lack of a better term, like I said, destruction and debris with the family unit, but you see how they were impacted by that job and how other people were impacted by that job. Because for me, it was normal. You know, it was for me was I do every day, day in and day out. We had, people in my police department who had never even seen me. I was just a name on a piece of paper, if not at all. And when I came out of bin, vice intelligence narcotics, when I came out of VIN, went back to regular police work, I was meeting people for the first time, and they were seven, eight year veterans. And they were like, I’d heard about you, but I’ve never seen you. You know? It’s like, yeah.
Michael Hearns [00:25:25]:
Here I am.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:26]:
Yeah. I’d imagine that that has to be some serious culture shock too. You get used to this completely different way of existing.
Michael Hearns [00:25:34]:
Yeah. If if you’re not grounded I mean, I I was lucky, in the sense that my my high school and childhood friends are still my friends now. So I didn’t, I I didn’t lose my my touchstones. I didn’t lose the things that kept me, grounded to reality. So, yes, there were some transitional action problems and hiccups, but for the most part, it was a smooth transaction. You know? I came in their job wearing a uniform. I didn’t care if I left one. That’s how it starts.
Michael Hearns [00:26:07]:
That’s how it ends. And all roads lead to the road. So
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:14]:
Well and and you also have a degree in criminal psychology. So, you know, I I’m not exactly sure how to ask this question, but I’m I’m wondering both how that helped in your actual undercover and not undercover work and in how that influences how you draw your more nefarious characters in your books.
Michael Hearns [00:26:38]:
Yeah. In all three books, I really haven’t gotten into any type of serial action, any type of repeat violent offender behavior. They’re all stand alone books. They’re they’re best if you read them in sequence because they are sequential. You know, Kate is moving through his life. But if you read them out of order, you won’t have any any, any spoilers or anything like that. In my case, I had a degree in business business economics. And, when I left VIN, towards the back end of VIN, I got tasked with a serial homicide case in Miami, and I had a successful resolve with that case.
Michael Hearns [00:27:20]:
And I started to work very closely with a forensic psychologist. And, you know, police officers are very tribal. They wear a certain uniform. They drive a certain type of car. They talk in a certain language. So they’re also very territorial. So when my agency started loaning me out to other departments to assist them with their own serial situations, it could be a serial rape, serial burglar, serial arsonist, or a serial murderer. I got a lot of pushback because there was a lot of, indignation about why is this guy here? We can do this.
Michael Hearns [00:27:55]:
We don’t need him. So I went and pursued and got my degree, my master’s in investigative criminal psychology, and I accepted for a PhD in The UK for it. I was one of only seven people accepted into the program, the only American accepted. And, it was nearly so, like, four years before I retired, but the problem was that going back and forth to England with the VAT tax and the British pound versus the dollar and leaving the age agency going back and forth, it was just very, very big imposition. So, I I got all the academic background of it. I just never finished a PhD, but I do have the master’s in it. So then I started working several homicide cases, and then I’m more known for the narcotic work, but I don’t not so much known for the serial homicide work. I do I was teaching a course at Champlain College in Vermont, and there are some other scripted and non scripted TV projects that are asking, my assistance on.
Michael Hearns [00:28:59]:
And then there’s also real cases that get asked to me even in retirement. And you have to be very careful about that because if you have any any sense of empathy, if you have any sense of humanity, that stuff will really beat you up. So when my wife or someone says to me, hey. Did you read that there’s x amount of people being murdered in x x amount of city? I just no. Unless I’m being directly asked to take part in it, I don’t do it because my emotional absorption for all that is limited. I call it putting on my dark clothes. Mhmm. But I am presented with a case that I need to look into for a police agency or or sometimes sometimes just to grieving family, and that’s really hard.
Michael Hearns [00:29:49]:
I I, like, take on, like, flu symptoms for, like, first twenty four hours
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:53]:
Wow.
Michael Hearns [00:29:54]:
Until I get my equilibrium. I mean, after all and I’ve worked on some some pretty well known cases, but as a consultant. And, it doesn’t get easier. I don’t think it gets harder, but it doesn’t get easier. And it’s it’s just it’s like driving, I’m not really familiar what part of the country you’re in, but it’s like driving through the Lincoln Tunnel or driving over to Golden Gate Bridge. It’s it’s something you have to do to get from point a to point b. But in that transitional, moment, yeah, I take on a lot of, stuff. And and, also, in in in the vein of of this podcast, there has to be a sense of creativity also in that investigation.
Michael Hearns [00:30:39]:
You have to be able to look at these situations differently than the average person. And a lot of people say, oh, you know, I I let the I let the, I I get in the serial kill I let I get in the serial killer’s head. The reality is you let him get into your head. And then it’s a whole different,
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:58]:
That sounds so much more disturbing than getting into their head too. Is that is that an accurate reaction, would you say?
Michael Hearns [00:31:06]:
No. It’s an accurate reaction. And what it is is basically it’s easier to throw someone out of your house than is to throw to get yourself thrown out of the house. That makes any sense? Yeah. You know, if I let you in, then I can close the door. But if you let me in, I gotta let you have to show me how to get out. Oof. Yeah.
Michael Hearns [00:31:29]:
It gets weird. It gets twisty with someone has to do it. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:33]:
Yeah. Well, and it reminds me of your comment earlier about how, you know, learning how to thrive in some of the situations that you were in because I think that, you know, the the world of TV and books and everything doesn’t necessarily make it look easy, but probably makes it look easier than it actually is.
Michael Hearns [00:31:52]:
Yeah. The visual arts, they they have a they have a it’s almost like music. There’s a beat to it. And you don’t recognize this when you’re watching your movies and your TV shows, but your directors and your and the pacing of a show is almost like a musical beat. And it’s gonna be we’re gonna introduce this. This is gonna happen, and then that’s gonna happen. And people are happy with a a a result. They’re happy with a solution.
Michael Hearns [00:32:20]:
Sometimes things don’t always have an easy solution. And you have to learn to live with the fact that sometimes you are not gonna solve the Rubik’s cube. There’s been plenty of time you’ve been in a party, and you’ve done this at. You know? You know? And that’s what happens sometimes. Sometimes there is no easy solution.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:40]:
Yeah. So tell me how how Kate Taylor went from the idea in your head to the books on your shelf.
Michael Hearns [00:32:50]:
It was kinda like a multistep process. One of the biggest things was I I went through a divorce myself, and, I was I started to date, my wife now. And my wife, at the time was the CEO of a of a very large nonprofit, and she was filled in 02/2010, 190 emails a day and jammed up schedule. And she was like, so in the morning, she was like, so this is what I got going on. What do you what do you have going on? I was like, I’m gonna go ride my bike. You know? I I I I I I I I I I I need to to, extenuate this purpose of life. You know? I need I need to I’ve always been a person of action. I’ve always been a person of move of movement.
Michael Hearns [00:33:39]:
So I I need to, you know, do something. So I’m gonna write a book. And she goes, really? Okay. I’ll see you tomorrow. I’ll see you later on tonight. Yeah. Okay. And then it was like, what are you doing? I’m writing.
Michael Hearns [00:33:53]:
Oh, okay. I’m writing. Okay. Okay. And then, like I said, trust no one. Although, on that title, I’ve been the the story line had been bounced in my head for about ten years. And, the book came out, and people really, liked it a lot, and they really, took to it. So, once again, like I said, give the people what they want.
Michael Hearns [00:34:18]:
Second k Taylor, Grasp and Smoke came out. And the reason we use Grasp and Smoke is it’s actually a term from criminal profile. It’s when you can see something, but you can’t get your hands around it. So it’s like grasping smoke. Yeah. You can see it, but you can’t hold it. And then in that book, Cade is is vexed with a situation where he can kinda see what’s going on, but he can’t get his hands around it. And then the third one was was One More Move.
Michael Hearns [00:34:46]:
So the book started to tumble out, for lack of a better term, and they became building blocks for each other. And, Grasp and Smoke was built off of the foundation created by Trust No One. And then we decided to make another addition, and one more move was built off of the two of them. And that’s kinda how we’re moving here. And, much like, Jack Reacher, Harry Bosch, there’s a certain cadence and rhythm to those books, and I’m hoping they’ll replicate the same cadence and rhythm for my readers. And this is not this is not a this is not a and or. This is a, you know, obviously, I hope everybody enjoys, all authors and all books. But, yeah, that’s what I’m trying to do here.
Michael Hearns [00:35:30]:
When you
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:31]:
mentioned to me that they’ve done better than expected?
Michael Hearns [00:35:35]:
Well, I say done better than expected because I am not the type of author who has 600 copies of my books in my garage. You see me at a farmer’s market, you know, trying to hustle them and everything else. I went through the traditional, literary agent, publishers, and it was, it’s a very uphill battle. And there’s certain things that go on in the publishing world, both in music and in in books that a novice doesn’t understand until they get into it. Mhmm. So, my books are published by a multimedia company, and they’re available everywhere. Every independent bookstore, your bigger chains, Walmart, Target, obviously, Amazon, the world’s biggest bookseller. But you’re not gonna see it on the shelf.
Michael Hearns [00:36:29]:
You’re gonna have to go into your independent bookstore and say, I want Crossroads one by Michael Hearns. They’ll look it up on their computer, and two days later, they’ll have it for you. My books are published by the world’s largest book publisher. It’s just that I don’t have that large marketing machine behind me. Mhmm. There there are no 15 foot, you know, posters of me in front of the box and everything else.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:53]:
I’ve always thought those were a little strange. I mean, they seem normal when they’re not you, but if they were you, you know?
Michael Hearns [00:36:59]:
Well, it’s yeah, the thing is is that those those moments are very fleeting. And there’s a certain mathematical equation to become a New York Times bestseller and other things. And there’s certain, I won’t say tricks. I’ll just say there are certain techniques to to doing that. But if you look at the New York Times bestseller list, with the exception of a few books, people are on there one week and they’re gone the next. It’s great to say you’re a New York Times bestseller. I could probably say that. I don’t think that, eventually, someone might call me on it, but, like, true.
Michael Hearns [00:37:39]:
But the books are gaining traction. They’re they’re selling in Australia. They’re selling and even they’re selling through across The US, and people are starting to talk about them. So they’re they’re more of a word-of-mouth type thing. They’re all pulling very solid ratings on Amazon and other, book rating companies or book rating platforms. And, you know, your podcast is, has a is rooted in creativity. And part of the problem with creativity is when you have to be your own marketer, you have to be your own social media director Mhmm. Create content, and you have to vacuum your rug, you have to take a dog to bed, you gotta go to a supermarket.
Michael Hearns [00:38:22]:
All those things get in the way of of creativity. And, creativity, you know, we see in our arts and movies, a man or woman living in a cabin somewhere and painting or sculpting or writing, and they seem to have unlimited funds and unlimited time. And the reality of life is that it doesn’t always work that way. You gotta get it in when you can. And I get in sparks, and I say to my wife all the time, I have to write today. And she says, well, you’re saying it to me like you’re like you’re telling me yeah. Like, I can’t go yeah. Because if I if I announce it to you, then I know I’ll have to do it.
Michael Hearns [00:39:02]:
But if I don’t announce it, then I can, like, you know, just block off. And then once the books start going, they start to do take on the life of their own, Cade. Cade does wake me up at 03:00 in the morning. He you know, it’s like he’s like, he’s like, problems. Problems. Problems. You know? He Cade wakes me up, and Cade when Cade he’s on my mind quite a lot when I’m writing. Yeah.
Michael Hearns [00:39:31]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:32]:
Yeah. I I always love those moments when characters talk to me.
Michael Hearns [00:39:36]:
Oh, and they do.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:38]:
Oh, they do. They so do.
Michael Hearns [00:39:40]:
And they do. I mean, like, unless you’ve done it, it’s hard to explain. It’s like, did you ever wrote the Bulls in Pamplin? No. But if you’ve done it, you remember it. They’ll have to say and and the people you write, I mean, they get in there and and, you know, people don’t recognize sometimes that when you’re writing these these books, you’re you’re writing dialogue for four people at one time. And you’re setting scene and you’re setting stage and, you know, they in my books, you’ll hear about the air conditioner turn around. You hear about the door swinging open and rubbing against the carpet. You hear you know, all of these things are brought into to my writing because I write very descriptively.
Michael Hearns [00:40:21]:
Once again, I write from a cinematic point of view. So I I visualize things the way I write. You know? So, yeah, it’s it’s daunting to to coordinate and and, choreograph all those voices and all those things. And some of them have different dialects and accents and things. So yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:42]:
Yeah. But I’m really glad that you brought up the fact that, again, TV presents this image of, you know, the writer who has all day to just sit at their laptop and write their book and doesn’t have to go to the grocery store and doesn’t have to deal with calling the plumber and, you know, any of that and all of the things that get in the way. And I think that it’s really, really easy for a lot of people to say, well, you know, I said I wanted to write a book, but when I sat down, I had to answer the door, and then the dog started barking, and then my kids came home from school. And, oh, well, I guess I’m just not a creative person because there’s, you know, it can’t happen because I can’t sit down this way and have eight hours to spend just writing a book, which I’m not sure that anybody really spends eight solid well, okay. I’m sure somebody does, but, you know, I think that we we tell ourselves that it has to look one way, but reality often isn’t that way. And I’m not sure how often we leave room for that reality and and find ways around it. Like, you know, telling somebody I’m gonna write today so that you know you have to do it. You know, that is such a simple thing, but it works.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:53]:
I’ve definitely done that before, you know, called somebody and said, I don’t need you to care about this. I just need you to hear me say it, and then I’ll tell you that I actually did it later. That’s all I need. And it sounds nuts, but it works.
Michael Hearns [00:42:06]:
Yeah. We have to, we have to get away from measuring our our our our life against others and recognizing that we are our own people, and we are our own spirit. We are our own well, I’m not gonna say any names, but there’s a very, very famous artist, and he was my next door neighbor. And I would I would see him, and we’d be talking. And I’d go, hey. Why don’t you put some orange in there? He go, okay. I’ll do that for you. You know? You don’t have any idea that this painting is gonna sell for $55,000.
Michael Hearns [00:42:40]:
The that orange part down the and so it wasn’t that I was stepping into this creativity. It’s just that you recognize that you have a place in everybody’s sphere, and you have a place in your own sphere. And you may not hit the fastball like Serena Williams, and you may not hit the golf ball like Tiger Woods, but you’re still gonna do it. And, you know, the boss gonna go over to that, and the boss gonna go in the hole. And you may not have the panache. You may not have the style. It may not have the marketing machine. It may not have the corporate sponsorship, but it’s you and insurance.
Michael Hearns [00:43:18]:
And I used to, you know, I I I used to work in a part of Miami that was very affluent. And sometimes these young officers would come into a house with me, and they would see this $2,230,000,000 dollar home. And they would, oh, man. Look at this. Oh, man. Look at that. And then we I would remind them. When you close your eyes at night, your house is just as dark.
Nancy Norbeck [00:43:42]:
Oh. And
Michael Hearns [00:43:44]:
Yeah. You know, so just because so and so has their artwork, you know, in a major airport somewhere and yours is hanging on a refrigerator, it does not make yours any less desirable. You know, we all have a seat at the table, and you have to just be, gracious, appreciative, happy, thankful. And while you’re there, be a little productive, but make it happen for me. But don’t don’t think that because so and so is selling books, like like, out the door, and I’m getting, you know, two sales a week. The two people who read them like it. You know? Yeah. And that’s where we are.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:27]:
And It’s two more than other people who never wrote a book in the first place.
Michael Hearns [00:44:31]:
Yeah. And, you know, the other thing also, when you make a movie or a film, truthfully speaking, you you you make three movies. You you you make the movie that you you wrote, that got green lighted, then you make the movie filmed, and then you make the movie you edit, and that’s the final product. But you’re really never in the the the state the same frame all the time. But when you’re making a movie I mean, go to any movie theater. Watch a movie and censor the credits and look at all the names. When you write a book when you write a book, it is it is your name that’s on the back of the spine and no one else’s. Mhmm.
Michael Hearns [00:45:13]:
And that says a lot. And the same thing being a painter. It’s your name at the bottom of the artwork and no one else’s. So those those are solo, projects.
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:27]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, the other thing that gets lost in it, I think we we we wanna focus on, I wrote the book, or I did the painting, or I made the movie, and that that the book, or the movie, or the painting, or whatever it is is the important part. But I think really the important part is you had a call to create something and you listened to it. And hopefully, you did it because you enjoyed doing it. And that, you know, the fact that you finished the book is the byproduct and not the sole focus of the fact that you listen to that creative call and you felt the joy of creating the thing and anything that comes after that is a bonus. Mhmm. Yeah. Just like you say, you know, the picture that’s hanging on the refrigerator.
Nancy Norbeck [00:46:18]:
Well, if you if you or whoever drew that picture that gave it to you drew it for the joy of it, of course, it has just as much value as the one that hangs in the museum, whether anybody else ever sees it or not.
Michael Hearns [00:46:30]:
Yeah. And I was in my twenties. I saw an interview with, Dave Thomas, the founder of the Wendy’s hamburger chain. And somebody called in and said, yeah. I have a question for mister Thomas. How do you feel, holding all these people to minimum wage while you make so much money? And the moderator tried to cut the collar off, and and Dave Thomas said, no. Let me think that. He goes, I’ll think that.
Michael Hearns [00:46:53]:
He goes, I’m I’m comfortable with that. We employ a lot of people, and he went into some some business stats. But then he also said, I’m comfortable with it because I took the risk. I mortgaged my house. I leveraged all my credit cards to get the first one he started. I I I took the risk. And so when you write that book and you put your name on the spine of it, you’re you’re you’re you’re taking a risk. You’re putting your your your work out there to be reviewed, to be read, to be criticized, to be cherished, to be thrown away, to be a keepsake.
Michael Hearns [00:47:26]:
Whatever it may be, you’re you’re taking a risk. And, you know, there’s a lot to be to be said for that. And when you when you, obviously, by my gender, you can tell I’ve never given birth. I’ve had many people say to me that upon giving birth, all the pain goes away. The thought all the all the pain and all the of labor, of childbirth is forgotten. And when when the book when the book is written and it’s it’s done, you forget about all the late nights, all the the the fretting, all the worrying, all the the stuff that went done. And, in my case, many times after the book is done, I’ve read it so many times myself. I’ve gone over it so many times, and I’m ready to move on to the next one.
Michael Hearns [00:48:19]:
It it may not even be out available to the public yet, and I’ve already mentally moved on to the next one. I have my my wife, I go, why do you keep reading your book? And and I’m looking for errors and, you know, everything. There’s yeah. And and there’s always people who live in fine print who are going, you know, on page one sixteen, there’s a typo. Yeah. I know. And there’s a typo. I get it.
Michael Hearns [00:48:41]:
Yeah. Go through any book you can find a typo.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:44]:
Yep. Yes. You are.
Michael Hearns [00:48:46]:
It also gives people they they say those things to you because they wanna have a connection to you as well. It’s not that that, they’re being highly critical. It’s their way of saying to you, I read your book, and I wanna have something to talk to you about. So you Yeah. Okay. Tell me about the typo one sixteen.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:11]:
Yeah. And then tell me what you thought of the plot. Yeah. Yeah. No. I and I I think that that that’s right, that, you know, you do you do reach a point where you have to be done with one project or you’ll just obsess with over it and drive yourself crazy. And it just gets to where it’s time to move on to the next one. And even if it was I mean, unless you had a truly, truly horrific experience doing whatever that project was, the joy of doing it and the energy of doing it is gonna make it something that you jump into again anyway, just like people say about giving birth.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:57]:
You know? Like, you forgot or maybe it’s
Michael Hearns [00:50:00]:
not even so much
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:01]:
that you forgot. It’s that it’s not as important, you know, how painful that was. And now it’s time to go do it again because the excitement and the joy of it outweighs
Michael Hearns [00:50:11]:
Yeah. The trust and the release is stronger than the toil. I thought that that trust no one, my first book, was gonna be I’m gonna say a one and done. I I already had an idea of another character I was gonna do in Los Angeles, and I started getting emails. I started getting phone calls. I started getting, in social media and stuff. I started getting comments about when’s the next one, when’s the next one. You can’t wait for the next one sometime.
Michael Hearns [00:50:41]:
Okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:42]:
So now That’s a good motivator too.
Michael Hearns [00:50:45]:
Yeah. You know? And if you still have gas in the tank, why not? You know? It’s like you pick up a hitchhiker. I I know I suggest you do that, by the way. Hitchhiker, you let that person out, and now there’s another hitchhiker. You still got gas in the tank. Why turn the car off? Just pick up the second one and go down the road until that journey is over. And if you still get gas in the tank, you pick up the third one. You know? It’s it’s it’s a terrible analogy, but I think you understand what I’m saying.
Michael Hearns [00:51:14]:
Mhmm. You know, there’s no need to change direction if people have an attraction or affiliation or something. And they like Cade. They like Cade Taylor a lot, and they like the fact that he’s he’s flawed. He’s not perfect. And he also tells you all of these stories in the first person. All of my books are written in the first person. So it’s not like I’m saying, you know, the guy jumped over the fence.
Michael Hearns [00:51:48]:
Kate says, I jumped over the fence.
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:51]:
Mhmm.
Michael Hearns [00:51:51]:
I ripped my pants, but I jumped over the fence.
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:56]:
So given your your work in the the TV and film industry, what do you think is next for k? Do you think that there’s a possibility that there might be a movie or a TV series or anything like that?
Michael Hearns [00:52:06]:
Would you
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:07]:
wanna go there?
Michael Hearns [00:52:08]:
I would, and I welcome all opportunities at any level. And any artist in their in their field should open up themselves to any opportunity that comes your way. Anyone that says to you, well, I’m just a painter, and I don’t want myself on a Disney mug. Well, you know, you gotta think about that. You know? I mean, I I have a friend of mine, and he lived next door to me in college, and he is an incredible artist. And he’s worked for Marvel for thirty years. And he’s he’s I don’t wanna say that he he’s done Spider Man. He’s done the Hulk.
Michael Hearns [00:52:39]:
He’s done Captain America. He’s he he’s a demigod in that field. And I saw him about a year ago or so. We’re drinking having a drink or something, and I said, so I you know, how do you feel about that? He goes, well, you know, I always want my stuff, you know, hanging in a museum. And I’m like, buddy, when you write an edition, it it sells 500,000 copies on the first day. It is tacked up in every kid’s bedroom from Tokyo to Tacoma to Tel Aviv. People are seeing your work. It may not be where you thought you were gonna be thirty years ago, but you’re bringing joy.
Michael Hearns [00:53:18]:
You’re bringing you’re bringing the writer’s story to life with your with your with your illustrations. So, you know, I I I think that we should all kinda recognize that if you have the ability to bring something to to somebody and I’ve had people tell me that, oh, I read your book, and, it really it brought it brought this emotion out of me or brought this feeling out of me. Well, then that that’s that’s good. Whether even if it’s an unintended consequence, it’s good. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I’ll bet you that your Marvel friend has has been seen by way more people than would have seen him in a museum anyway.
Michael Hearns [00:53:58]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And he’s he’s comfortable with it now. He really is. In fact, I I don’t wanna reveal who he is or what he is, but he has major projects in front of him. So an answer to your question, yeah, there is an a list actor in Hollywood who has expressed an interest in portraying Cade. Hollywood puts out a lot of products, and we see only, like, two or 3% of them. There’s a lot of stuff that gets shown on a cruise ship in the Indian Ocean you never see.
Michael Hearns [00:54:34]:
And, what possibilities there are for for Kay Taylor to be brought into a different multimedia, are they’re they’re limitless. And there are people who read the books and say, I would love to see this in a in a TV show. I’d love to see this in a movie. So because I write in a cinematic point of view, I’m gonna I’m gonna give this thing to you again. Because I write in a cinematic point of view, they’re very easily adaptable for that. The the language, the dialogue, the scenes, and the book are very easy to be converted into film. And I think that has writers. The example I gave you before, oh, you know, me and Nancy, we drove to Kansas City.
Michael Hearns [00:55:15]:
And it’s not just Gen Xers. It’s it’s we as a society are becoming more visual. Mhmm. And when you read a book, you also want to have a visual imagery. And the days of Ernest Hemingway saying, I I I sail on a boat. The ocean is big. My boat is small. My boat sails on the ocean.
Michael Hearns [00:55:38]:
You know? We get it, Ernest. We get it. But today’s readers not not to besmirch a classic, but today’s readers wanna know, you know, is the boat made of wood? Is it made out of fiberglass? Is it leak? How many times have you painted it? How did you get that boat? Where’d you buy the boat? You know, why do you like that boat so much? Why are you on the sea? Why are you on yeah. We we want a more visual presentation. So you bring the reader into this world, and Kate does that because Kate talks to you in the first person. So people say all the time, I feel like I was right there with Kate when this was happening because it’s not a narrator telling you. It’s Kate’s going on. Going on.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:19]:
Definitely. Well, I will be really, really curious to see where Kate goes from here and see if he ends up on a screen. And I hope that, you know, if he does, that it’s a very faithful adaptation.
Michael Hearns [00:56:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, there there have to be, some tweaking here and there. But, the books take place in, The Trust No One is February 1998. Grasp and Smoke is October, and One More Move is November. So one of the concerns is, you know, it’s very expensive to to do a period piece. And even though it seems like 1998 was not that far away, it truthfully was in ’11. So, but these books don’t have to be a period piece.
Michael Hearns [00:57:07]:
They could be modern things. I, it all really, really all started because I had neither justified why Kate had a pager. You know? And so I sent it there, and now I’m kinda stuck in that in that in that, in that chronological time frame. But, yeah, you know, these these are highly adaptable to 2023, 2020. We can adapt them in a heartbeat. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:31]:
Well, I hope that it happens, and and we’ll see where you go from there.
Michael Hearns [00:57:36]:
Well, I hope so too, and I I appreciate those those kind sentiments. I like I said, people seem to really like Cade, and he he doesn’t always save the day, perfectly. He doesn’t always save the day by himself. He doesn’t always there’s there’s a lot of things that go right, a lot of things go wrong in these books. And, he he is human. He has frailties. He has emotions. He has, but he stays in the fight.
Michael Hearns [00:58:05]:
He stays in the fight, and he fights. He he plays the game very well. He’s very street smart, and he’s in all these books, I bring an element of law enforcement and an element of that lifestyle that you’ve never seen before in books or TVs before or movies. So, yeah, all three books so far, Cade has an exact the action sequences or something that’s never been done before. Oh, cool. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:34]:
Well, that’ll be a good challenge for whoever decides to adapt him.
Michael Hearns [00:58:38]:
Yeah. It’s it’s it’s doable.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:40]:
It’s doable.
Michael Hearns [00:58:41]:
We’re not hanging from a blimp over Paris. It’s just
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:44]:
Yeah. That’s James Bond.
Michael Hearns [00:58:47]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:50]:
Well, I’ll be curious to see what happens, and I really, really appreciate you coming and talking with me today. That’s our show for this week. My thanks to Michael Hearns for joining me and to you for listening. Please leave a review of the show, and in it, tell us about the creative thing that you do just for the love of it. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. I appreciate it so much. It really helps the show find new listeners. If this episode resonated with you, don’t forget to get in touch on any of my social platforms or even via email at @nancyatfycuriosity.com.
Nancy Norbeck [00:59:26]:
Tell me what you loved. And if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now and you haven’t yet signed up for my free email series on six of the most common creative beliefs that are messing you up, please check it out. It’ll untangle those myths and help you get rolling again. You can find it at fycuriosity.com, and there’s also a link right in your podcast app. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends.
Nancy Norbeck [01:00:07]:
It really helps me reach new listeners. Thanks.