Talking to God with John Roedel

The idea of “talking to God” may bring up images of saints or prophets—or a disconnect from reality. John Roedel fits in none of those categories. He’s an improv comedian and poet who started writing conversations between himself and God as silly one-offs during a crisis of faith, only to find them becoming deeper and more insightful over time. One of his pieces from a few years ago went viral in the spring of 2020, to his great surprise, when the newly quarantined public found itself reflected in his words. John and I talk about being the family oddball, the perks and perils of “talking” with God (including readers’ expectations), living your life according to “Yes, and…” and even enact that viral post for you.

“The more I wrote, and the more vulnerable I got, the more it seemed like I connected with people I’ve never even met before.”

John Roedel

Show links

John’s website

John’s Facebook

The Hey God, Hey John Facebook page

John’s Twitter

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Transcript

Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity, where we explore the inner workings of the creative process. I’m your host, Nancy Norbeck. At the beginning of 20 twenty’s pandemic lockdown, a post went viral on Facebook. It was actually from a few years before, but it resonated with people who were trying to understand what was happening and how life was changing for them. The author of that post, John Roedel, never expected to be a writer, much less have a viral post. He started talking to God on paper as a sort of Facebook comedy act based in a crisis of faith. After a while, though, the conversations got deeper and people started noticing. We talk about what it’s like to write messages from a deity, especially the myriad expectations people bring to that work, the mystery of where they come from, and that John’s not trying to teach anyone religion or anything else, and what happens when you live your life by the rule, yes, and.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:06]:
John and I also read 2 of his pieces for you, one from the very beginning and the one that went viral. There’s a lot to chew on here, and you’ll definitely want to check out the links in the show notes when you’re done. I think you’ll really enjoy my conversation with John Roedel. John Roedel, welcome to the podcast.

John Roedel [00:01:24]:
Thank you very much.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:25]:
No. I’ve actually been thinking about contacting you, but for the podcast for a couple months, and I only sort of got up the nerve, what, like, 6 weeks ago or something. And so I’m glad that we’re making this happen because I I am not a longtime Facebook follower because I don’t really do Facebook, though I know you’ve been posting on there for a while. I sort of encountered you almost by accident a couple months ago and was just kind of completely blown away. And so I’ve been really, really curious to get an inside view on how it is that you ended up writing notes to God. But before we get there, I’m curious to know, like, were you writing did you write as a kid? Did you always have a tendency in that direction, or was this all a complete surprise?

John Roedel [00:02:20]:
That and that’s a really good question. Any guidance counselor, English teacher, academic person I’ve ever bumped into throughout my career, whether it be kindergarten to college, would be blown away that I could write a single sentence that actually made any sense. I always liked reading. I read all the Harvey Boy books. I I loved reading. I loved mysteries, but I never really had designs on being a writer. It just it always felt like something that was for people beyond my capabilities. So, no, it wasn’t something I had dishonors on ever.

John Roedel [00:03:00]:
I it it’s I stumbled upon it. I’m not trained to be a writer. I didn’t I got passing grades in English. That was about it. Mhmm. My my college advisor told me I was maybe one of the lowest the lowest intellect of any student he had ever drunk through this college experience. Whoo. So I, I was I was a little bit of a I’m a little bit of a character, so I I I I I grew up in a family of scientists.

John Roedel [00:03:31]:
My dad is a pharmacist was a pharmacist. His dad before him was a pharmacist, and his dad before him was a pharmacist. And they opened up a drugstore here in my little John, Cheyenne, Wyoming in 18/86. And it stayed open until 2,008. And so I grew up in a family. My mom was an old like one of those old school teachers in a single room classroom with a ruler. And my older brother works as at Xbox, building Xboxes. He’s an electrical engineer.

John Roedel [00:04:01]:
Everyone in my house was mathematicians. And I just was kind of the oddball. And so I didn’t really take academics or career or anything very seriously at all. And so my stumbling upon my writing just kinda happened about 5 years ago in the middle of a lot of self doubt and, faith crisis. And I just my only skill set I really think I have aside, I can make risotto. I can make a really mean risotto. The only other thing I love doing is I like being on stage making people laugh. And I had when I was in college, I had designed to move into a second city and doing stand up comedy or whatever.

John Roedel [00:04:47]:
And then life got kind of in the way, and that never really happened. So I’m but here in Cheyenne, I I do try to I created a little sketch and comedy group here in town with some friends, and I loved being on stage, and I loved making people laugh. So one day, I just decided I’m gonna poke fun at this faith crisis and this doubt I have, and and I started having these little fictional conversations with God. And it just kinda blossomed from there, and I’m as surprised as anyone.

Nancy Norbeck [00:05:19]:
Fair enough. Before we get into that, I wanna talk about the improv. Yeah. How did you find improv?

John Roedel [00:05:28]:
Well, like like anything that I grew up with, anything I I I I discovered in life, I discovered by watching TV. 1 of my role models growing up was eighties television. I watched all sorts of television growing up. Up. My parents were older, my brother was older than me. So by about 6 or 7 o’clock at night, I would just find myself in a little room with a TV being raised by a saint elsewhere or Magna PI or whatever was on the television that night. But I remember I fell in love with Saturday Night Live and the comics and Robin Williams and all of that. That’s like a 6th or 7th grader.

John Roedel [00:06:10]:
And so from that point John, I realized I love making I love the idea of laughter, and it just felt it was my way of connecting to people. And my body type is more of, like, more tenguin than anything else that I knew. I wasn’t going to be able to get a girlfriend or be the captain of the I wasn’t gonna be the captain of the football team or anything like that, but I could make people laugh. I wasn’t charming or dashing, but I could get in front of a group of people and make them giggle at lunch. And so I kinda took that seriously. And then when I got older in life, actually, who’s line is it anyway? My wife and I John our honeymoon, we there was some we saw some improv in Orlando, Florida that I was like, wow. These people are Jesus. They can just get up on stage and they can turn a 3 suggestions into a 30 minute song.

John Roedel [00:07:06]:
And I thought that is amazing. And I I kinda fell into it from there. And then the theory of improv, which the one rule you know is yes, and. Mhmm. And so you say yes to what’s happening, and here’s what I’m going to do about it. And I’ve really fallen into that yes, and philosophy of improv just through through my whole life. I didn’t even I didn’t realize I’ve been improvising since I was born. I don’t really have a plan as you knew trying to book me John your show.

John Roedel [00:07:37]:
Schedule, I’m not the most organized person, but I say yes to it, and then I figure it out as we go. And that’s what’s happened with hey, god. Hey, John. I just started do I read in this post. I said yes to it, and I just kept saying yes every time I showed up to it without any designs or plans. I have no back availing in plan or design. As my I get my port guidance counselor told to tell you, I didn’t really have any ambitions. I don’t have lifelong plans or goals.

John Roedel [00:08:07]:
I just show up and say yes to it and see what happens.

Nancy Norbeck [00:08:11]:
You know, it it’s fascinating to me that that you’ve made a way of life out of that because I interviewed a friend of mine in January of 2020 who also has done a lot of improv and has started her own theater company, which I’m hoping will still be starting through the pandemic. And and we had a long conversation about how you could do a lot worse in your life than to run it by yes and.

John Roedel [00:08:40]:
Yeah. Yes. And I and looking back, there’s been millions of these little moments as crossroads that all you’re really being asked to do is just accept what’s happening. Like, I can be on stage. My entire I’ll I’ll I’ll backtrack a little bit. My my family wanted me to have a job or career where in college, I would say, this is what my career is going to be. Mhmm. And I never really could just decide this is who I wanna be.

John Roedel [00:09:10]:
I didn’t wanna choose that because I thought, I’m just gonna regret it later. If I choose, I’m going to be a teacher at 22, at 44. I just knew I that wouldn’t be for me. Mhmm. I like the I so my entire life, I have just, without even knowing the SM philosophy, just said I’m going to be whatever I’m going to be in that day. And in improv, you might go on stage and be like, oh, I’m I’m gonna do this amazing impression, Jimmy Carter. I’m gonna be the best Jimmy Carter impersonator ever. And then the crowd wants me to get a suggestion that you’re a cow in space.

John Roedel [00:09:43]:
You’ve John let go of that Jimmy Carter pressing and de become that cow floating in space. And you’ve got to jump into it with everything you have and not worry about it and let go of your ego a little bit. I might get terrible at cabin space, but I’m going to throw my entire heart into it. And that’s kind of how this has gone for me. My wife and I met when we were in high school, and she said, hey. We should get married. And I just said, yes. Okay.

John Roedel [00:10:13]:
Without really knowing what that meant or what would happen. You know, and then she said, we should have kids. And I said, okay. Yeah. And without I never really thought of being a father. But now, because I said yes to those things, my life is is I’m surrounded by people I love. So it’s just kind of I I try to treat it like an adventure, I guess.

Nancy Norbeck [00:10:38]:
Yeah. Definitely. And and, you know, I’m I’m thinking that if you haven’t ever done improv, you might not be aware of the fact that going between going from I’m gonna do the best Jimmy Carter ever to I’m gonna be a cow in space, you probably get maybe 2 seconds to make that switch in your head. Yep. It’s not like you have 3 weeks to go and say, what would Cow and Space do?

John Roedel [00:11:06]:
Right. Right. And you’ve gotta figure it out as you go along, and you’ve gotta be willing to fail. And the part of the trick is realizing there’s people in the audience that are actively kind of rooting for you to fail a little bit, and that’s okay. Because you can wink at the audience and say, hey, I’m figuring this out along with you. And that’s kinda how I look at adulthood. I mean, there’s plenty of people my age, all my people I might bump into at a party, or people I know from college who are doctors and they’re driving fancy cars, and they’re all talking about, well, what do you do with life? And I talk about well, sometimes I get on Facebook and I write conversations between me and, quote, unquote, God. And they’re like, okay.

John Roedel [00:11:47]:
That’s a crazy way to live your life. And and I kind of wink at them and say, yeah. I’m not necessarily successful in what I was told success looked at, like, when I was 20 years old. But I feel connected to a purpose, you know, that I didn’t have 5 or 6 years ago.

Nancy Norbeck [00:12:05]:
Mhmm. And I think it’s interesting because this also came up in in that same conversation with with Jennifer Nastas Zafouti that you have to figure out what your definition of success is. You know, for some people, it’s the corner office and the car and the house and whatever, but that’s not what it is for all of us.

John Roedel [00:12:27]:
Right. And that’s just kind of letting go, and I struggle with that. I mean, probably, I I fell into writing because I was struggling with identity and purpose. I I had designs of doing other things with my I mean, I have designs, but I I had I thought maybe I would be out of I’m living in the same town I grew up in, and I always wanted to leave, but there was always reasons for me to stay here. And 10 years ago, I was really struggling with that. This is not where I should be. Look at all these other people that are quote, unquote more successful. Look at them.

John Roedel [00:13:01]:
Their Instagram’s d is a lot more free than mine. It it they look a lot more happy and they’re doing great things. And here I am still figuring out who I am. So I doubted this yes, and philosophy, this this kind of making it up as you go along. But until I said yes to the I said yes to the right moment, and then things started clicking for me. I think it was just I just kept showing up every day saying yes. A couple years ago, you know, when I first started writing these little conversations, I realized how crazy this looked. And I I wanted to just write these little funny little misses between me and and God just to kinda poke fun at this faith and self help culture and all of that a little bit.

John Roedel [00:13:47]:
And the more I started writing them, the more I started becoming more vulnerable. And I was sharing parts of my life that weren’t necessarily funny. I was sharing parts of my life that were made me look sad. That’s not what a comic or anyone who wants to make someone laugh does.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:04]:
Mhmm.

John Roedel [00:14:04]:
And I had a lot of doubt. But the more I showed up and the more I said yes to these conversations, the more people seem to seem to appreciate them and say, hey. I know I struggle with this as well. I, you know, I feel the same way too. I have the struggle with my own spirituality or my own physical life as well. And the more I started sharing those pieces of meaning, the more other people were felt comfortable sharing their pieces. And I’ve learned more from other people than I probably have, you know, helped other people come to understand.

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:40]:
That’s such a classic teacher y thing to say. I taught for a while, and I learned more from my kids. I’m convinced Yeah.

John Roedel [00:14:50]:
When they

Nancy Norbeck [00:14:50]:
learned from me.

John Roedel [00:14:52]:
Right. And it’s because you show up and you we’re kind of all in this together. You know, I I don’t profess myself as any kind of guru or spiritual dean. I’m not evangelizing. And early on, I had a lot of people wanna use what I was writing and say, hey, this isn’t in the bible. Hey, god doesn’t talk like that. And I had a lot of struggle with people and people who wanted me to be more evangelical with these conversations. And I was like, no.

John Roedel [00:15:21]:
God I don’t even refer to God with any pronouns. God is whatever people want that word to need for them. I’m not trying to convince anybody of anything. This is just me showing up, talking about what’s going on, and John and I sorted out together. And a lot of people who follow these posts are atheists, and they’ll write me and say, hey, you know, I’m God or, you know, or they’re talking about themselves, they’re gods, or their consciousness is God or whatever. And that’s fine. I I don’t really whenever someone wants to have God be in these conversations, I’m just happy that they’re just following along.

Nancy Norbeck [00:16:00]:
Yeah. I I think that’s that’s really the key. Right? As long as you’re connecting with something, you must be doing it right.

John Roedel [00:16:08]:
Well, I I I I have learned I have I have 3 teenagers, and I’ve learned that. I’ve learned to use my ego. Anytime I I I I don’t have any I’m not I’m not doing this to anything I write. I don’t write to try to impress anybody. And I think early on I tried to. When I when I first started writing about 5 years ago, I wanted to impress people like they did at the beginning. And you might notice it early on in the book or even when I sort of I would try to have it more funny, and I really wanted people to think, oh, he’s funny. And slowly throughout these conversations, you know, I’ve written about 17 to 2000 of them.

John Roedel [00:16:49]:
17 to 2000 of them now that the the less I get out of the way and take my ego out of the way or concern of what other people think I think about me or have expectations of me, the better I feel people connect to it. And so yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:17:08]:
That makes sense to me. And and I’m also intrigued that you say, you know, you’ve had atheists who contact you and and really connect with it. Because I I just saw a headline the other day on an article that I didn’t read, and now I wish I had, that said that atheists are much more spiritual than you would think.

John Roedel [00:17:28]:
Oh, yeah. No. I’ve had they’re very much more open minded. Like, the atheists and I might there might be a better word for atheism than that for atheists and that, but they they’re not close minded. A lot of them just say, hey. I don’t know. Mhmm. And that’s okay.

John Roedel [00:17:44]:
And that’s what I’ve learned is I grew up in a Catholic household. I, in fact, I worked at a Catholic church 20 some years ago. I I grew up with a very strict kind of Catholic teaching that these are the hoops, these are the this is the rituals, these are the things you go through. And I still find I still find value in those, those things. But they’re not I found it to be a little bit more open ended. Mhmm. And I found it to be a little bit more well, I don’t know, and it’s okay to say I don’t know when it comes to our spirituality and our spirit of God. I mean, we’re on this rotating planet in the middle of space, endless space next to a burning fire wall.

John Roedel [00:18:27]:
And everybody acts like they know everything about God or spirituality or any of this. It’s like, how do you know anything? Where kind of all these little creatures scurrying around John head? How can you be so sure? And I used to ask that at the Catholic priest all the time. I’d ask, how can you be so certain? It’s not faith then, it’s certainty. How can you be certain of these things? And that was a question I can never really get reconciled. And that’s probably shows up as quite a bit of a theme in my writings is I don’t know. I’m not trying to tell anybody anything. A lot of times I’m just trying to ask questions. And sometimes God, you know, a lot of times God doesn’t answer me.

John Roedel [00:19:05]:
But God just tells me that these questions are okay in these conversations. And I think it’s okay to ask questions. And atheists ask the best questions.

Nancy Norbeck [00:19:15]:
Are there any questions that that they’ve asked you that have stuck out?

John Roedel [00:19:18]:
Oh, yeah. Well, the one and I I will tell people I don’t answer. Like, I’m not I’m not I’m not trying to answer any of these questions, but there’s questions of and it’s the age old cliche question of, if God exists, why do bad things happen? Why, you know, or why if I’m if I’m praying for my son to not to be or my daughter or whatever or my loved John to not have to cancer anymore, Why does my prayer go unanswered, but my neighbors down the street, it theirs doesn’t theirs does get answered. Like, why is there inequity when it comes to, you know, what God does and how God would intervene? And those are questions I can’t answer. The only thing I can say to that is I believe that all suffering has a purpose, and I think all of our lives have our own individual adventure and theme behind them and track and to honor our suffering and the trials that we go through and as a gift. And I try to and I’ve been through my share of suffering and my share of heartbreak and my share of setbacks, and I try to say, well, I don’t know that God is intentionally listening or not listening to those things. I don’t know that God is just ignoring my pleas to make my life easier, or God is intentionally just putting these obstacles in my way, I don’t know. But what I do know is that there is I always do feel connected to some sort of source, to some sort of love that is with me and present with me during those moments.

John Roedel [00:20:48]:
And that’s what I try to focus on is I don’t know the answer to those questions except I think we are all loved. And so but, yeah, I know. I get a lot of great questions. And early on, I get a lot of people shouting. Early on, I got a lot of evangelicals challenging me on things. And I would tell them, please don’t follow me if you’re thinking I’m going to be some sort of Joel Osteen kind of conversion person. I’m not trying to convert people to any way of thinking. I’m just trying to share my experience and have an open dialogue with quote, dot, unquote.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:25]:
Did they accept that or were they No. Hard die? Yeah.

John Roedel [00:21:28]:
Hard time. Hard time. And that’s okay. And, you know, I and I certainly don’t judge them for that. But some people want like, to have an instruction booklet where, okay, here’s okay, god. And, you know, god, this is a but the bible or the catechism or whatever religious home someone has. And they say, this is my this is my blueprint for how I survive this crazy experience of life. And for me, I struggle with that because I don’t know like, we have a hard time coming up with tax code as humans, and we’re coming up with, health insurance or things like that.

John Roedel [00:22:06]:
I don’t understand how we done yeah. We we just screw all that up, and we have this perfect book that will get us through everything else. So just rely on this book. And that works for a lot of people, and that’s awesome. But for me, I always question who wrote this and where did these things come from? So I have to experience my faith. I can’t read things in a book that made me feel better. I I feel better about myself and I feel more connected to God, I should say, in interacting with students and being around people and having experiences and having conversations and not reading something that was written a 1000 years ago.

Nancy Norbeck [00:22:44]:
Yeah. And and you you kind of did Of all the things that you could have picked, well, the the beings you could have picked to write to, you did sort of pick the one with the most potential to be a hot button.

John Roedel [00:22:59]:
Right. Right. So, again, it goes into, like, I had no plans. Like, if I was sort of smart, I would have, like, picked an easier character, like, an easier person in our in our culture to just be like, oh, yeah. Well, I have nothing to say about this. No. Everyone has something to say about God, which is amazing. And it’s a it’s a triggering word, God.

John Roedel [00:23:20]:
It can trigger people to good emotions and negative emotions or scary or whatever. Mhmm. And, yeah, had I thought about it and just said, hey. I could sell more books if it’s just like, hey, invisible being, hey, John. But I chose the word god, or hey, you know, conscious or whatever because that’s that’s kinda how I I guess it’s probably my cultural back my my background that made me use that word. And I I never really thought anyone else would care. Like I said, I started writing them over Lent when about 5 years ago, and I thought, okay, I’m gonna be forwarding these posts and John and I are gonna argue about big brother or why I shouldn’t wear skinny jeans or whatever the silly thing God and I would talk about. And then at the end of Lent, I’ll just stop and move on to something else too, and one of my friends in sharing on Facebook with.

John Roedel [00:24:12]:
And I didn’t really think anyone would care that I would just make my my poor wife, you know, shrug her shoulders and shake her head while she read these posts. But it yeah. It it just kinda blossomed despite me.

Nancy Norbeck [00:24:27]:
Clearly. But I think sometimes those are the best things.

John Roedel [00:24:31]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would love to tell you. And, you know, people have asked me. It’s like, oh, wow. You must have really, really thought this through. No. I’m reckless.

John Roedel [00:24:40]:
I I just said yes and I just started doing it. And I’m trying to build this train as it’s running down the track. And a lot of my writing has kinda shifted into poetry over the last couple of years. And that is completely accidental as well. I I’m not I never read poetry growing up. I didn’t I didn’t particularly like it. I I probably got d pluses whenever the poetry union would come up in high school. It didn’t really appeal to me.

John Roedel [00:25:07]:
But in these conversations with God, God started replying to me almost lyrically, almost poetically back, and they kind of emerged from there. And that has been something that has been definitely beyond my understanding.

Nancy Norbeck [00:25:23]:
That was a question I was gonna ask you actually was how the poetry started to happen. And and you just I mean, how much time do you spend now writing to God versus writing poetry?

John Roedel [00:25:36]:
That’s a really good question. I probably, it’s now 5050.

Nancy Norbeck [00:25:40]:
Okay.

John Roedel [00:25:41]:
And before, it’d been 90, 10 where I was having these these conversations are starting to become solely poetic, I would say. And I I feel like it’s still whatever and again, I don’t I don’t at all contend that I’m connecting to I I some people would get on and say, no, I’m speaking to God or I’m speaking to source or I’m speaking to spirit. And I maybe could be. I I think I would be the worst person that god or source or spirit or whatever once in a while would choose to talk to you. But some but but I feel like some of these responses when I write are coming from maybe a place inside of myself that are undiscovered, that maybe were placed there when I was created or born or something. There’s a layer to me that I didn’t know existed. And so when I was having these conversations with God, with, Hey, God, Hey, John, I was discovering parts of myself and my heart that were uncharted. And that’s still happening with the poetry.

John Roedel [00:26:43]:
I just feel like some of the middle ground that me and God having pleasantries at the beginning are kinda disappearing, and now we’re cutting to the chase and just getting straight to the poetry. Mhmm. And that’s kind of what I like is past formalities, me and John these conversations with the past. The pleasantries of, hey, how are you doing? I mean, as you’ll probably see some of these conversations, the first third of them or sometimes me and Gus sit down at Perkins talking about whatevers, and then we get into what the post is and what the what I’m really talking about. And now with poetry, we’re just getting we’re just cutting to the chase, and I’m not even I don’t feel like there’s any me talking. It’s just God giving a response to whatever unspoken is happening in my heart. And yeah. And that’s and I I definitely don’t write these whether it’s poetry or hate god posts as, like, a prescription to say here are the answers for you.

John Roedel [00:27:39]:
I always write these where I don’t even really know what they’re about until I start writing them. As you could as any book critic or literary person reading these posts, like I said, we’ve kind of gotten, I will beat around the bush and then you tap to it. But now I I write I I write purely out of emotion. I don’t know where I don’t know what they’re supposed to be out or what a poem is gonna be about, but I just know how I feel. And I sit in that emotion and I sit in that sentiment and I kind of lay down in it. And I always have this little visualization I do. It’s like I’m laying down in the river. And I can be happy.

John Roedel [00:28:15]:
I can be excited about something. And so I I let that excitement and joy overwhelm me as if you’re laying down in the stream and letting it wash all of you. And then I write from that. If I’m greeting or I’m sad or I’m depressed, I lay down in that sadness and depression for a little bit and let it overwhelm me. And then I write from there without saying, oh, here’s a great line or here’s something really amazing that people are gonna think is is truly remarkable. No. I just write straight from how I feel, and it’s very it’s very guttural. It’s very instinctual.

John Roedel [00:28:51]:
It’s not it’s not intellectual, I don’t think.

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:55]:
I think that’s why people connect with it so much.

John Roedel [00:28:59]:
Maybe. At first, I thought it was just like, oh, sorry for me. And that they were at first, when I was writing this post, I mean, being a I live in a small town town and I’m a man and writing about emotions and feelings is not some I live in Wyoming and it’s very much a cowboy country here. It’s very much, you know, if you have a star, keep it to yourself. If you’re hurt, you know, therapy isn’t necessarily something that is everyone talks about here, or advocates for necessarily all the time. Men are supposed to be stoic and strong, and I was doing things on social media that was the antithesis of that. I could have written these posts and hit them in a shoebox. Mhmm.

John Roedel [00:29:41]:
The more people started connecting with them, the more I thought, well, maybe one person will feel the exact same thing or will understand what I’m feeling, and they will be like, okay. You know, someone else feels that way too, so I don’t feel alone. And, yeah, it’s and so I I thought at first, I thought people just thought I was having a nervous breakdown, which probably is true. But the more I the more I wrote and the more vulnerable I got, the more I seemed like I connected with people I’ve never even met before. And it’s it’s it’s been a remarkable experience. I’m an introvert. Like, I love to perform. I’d love I’d rather be on stage in front of a 100 people than in a cocktail party of 10.

John Roedel [00:30:24]:
It’s kind of my makeup. And I and so sharing these parts of my life, I would never do if I was sitting down with 5 people in a coffee if we’re at a book club and all of a sudden the topic of depression came up. Would I be sitting around with all these people talking about my my terrors or my innermost thoughts or the things that keep me up? And I probably not. But when I do it on paper, I feel like it’s my calling to put it out there so other people can read it and feel, oh, good. I’m not alone.

Nancy Norbeck [00:30:55]:
That’s amazing because so many people would not do that at all. They’d stick it in the shoebox.

John Roedel [00:31:01]:
Right. And that’s maybe advisable. I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know. I I who knows? Again, no plan. You know, I I definitely do live in a small town and I have friends and family that Roedel, like behind closed doors, like I don’t know if he’s okay. And certainly early on in these posts, once I really got into the need of these conversations with God, he tackled some pretty tough things with my own mental health or anxiety or doubt in the existence of God, or things like that that people don’t necessarily talk about. It’s stuff that has stigmas attached to them.

John Roedel [00:31:39]:
So I I I just had to let go of worrying about what other people thought. And the more I the more I’ve done that, the better it’s John. And I think that’s true for any art form you do, whether it’s, you know, dance or art, you know, painting or whatever. You’ve gotta let go of what people expect of you.

Nancy Norbeck [00:31:57]:
Yeah. For sure, which I think is a super, super hard thing for most of us to do, but I think you’re absolutely right. You can’t channel that kind of energy if you’re worried about it the whole time.

John Roedel [00:32:10]:
Right. Right. And, you know, I can’t worry about, my gosh, what would my parents thought, or what does my uncle whatever think, or what does my former roommate in college think. And I think, what is the one person out there who’s having a terrible day thing? What is the one person out there who is going through the exact same thing I went through at this moment? What do they need? It’s really not ego driven. You know, being a self published author is not, you know, not no one’s making a $1,000,000 here. I’m not thinking if I could I can earn a haircut, is my goal. And so it’s not I I I really don’t feel and I post all my stuff on Facebook immediately. Again, when I talk to creative writing students, I’m like, don’t follow what I’m doing.

John Roedel [00:32:53]:
I put I’ll write things and I’ll post it to Facebook even before I edit it. I’ll just write it. I’ll mash it out with my penguin thumbs on my phone and put it on Facebook, and I’ll let it sit there for a while before I even look at it. It’s one for 2 reasons. 1, because if I don’t put it on Facebook immediately, I’ll talk myself out of it. Mhmm. And then I’ll just put it away in that shoebox. Into it does help me crowdsource editors because I’ll have to call them.

John Roedel [00:33:21]:
Right? And and say, oh, wait. No. You you used the wrong word there or you just spelled that. Like, oh, great. You just saved me a $100. Wow. And that’s you know, so anything I write, it’s usually I’ve written within the last 5 minutes. It’s not something I thought out and wrote down in a notebook and chimed and hawed over and crossed things out.

John Roedel [00:33:44]:
I just write it in immediately. I’ll just feel compelled to post it immediately and let it sit for a while. And I thought I’ll do that until people just get sick of it and stop, you know, just stop responding altogether. And that’s probably my plan. And it’s not great for if you’re worried about copyright. It’s not great if you’re worried about, people thinking, wow, you’re sharing oversharing a little bit of yourself. So that’s why you just have to let that go.

Nancy Norbeck [00:34:14]:
Wow. Was it hard to let that go?

John Roedel [00:34:17]:
Mhmm. Yes. Yeah. You it’s hard to let go of the fact that people might not think you had your life together. Mhmm. It’s I mean, it’s hard to it’s hard to let go of, you know, being a man who’s talking about his heartbreak or grief or sadness or anything like that without worrying about what you’re not you’re not supposed to talk like that. You’re not supposed to say things like that. You’re not supposed to question the existence of God on Facebook.

John Roedel [00:34:46]:
And that’s not why Mark Zuckerberg created social media. He wanted us to all hit on each other and post our amazing vacation pictures. And I I weaponized. I wasn’t doing that. I was I was I was doing something different with it. And I wasn’t really writing to promote Tutwina. Here’s my you know, recently, over the last couple of months, I’ve tried to promote anything I’ve done for marketing, and I’m like a monkey trying to market. I don’t know what I’m doing.

John Roedel [00:35:13]:
It’s only been recently I just said, well, I better at least let people know I have a book. That might be that might be like an adult thing an adult would do. But, you know, there’s plenty of writers out there who use their social media as a way of being like, here’s my work and, you know, here’s how you buy my products. That’s still not how I experience my experience with social media and how why I post things on Facebook. I post things on Facebook as a way of feeling I can help one other person out there. And maybe at the same time, like, writing isn’t therapy, but it’s therapeutic for me.

Nancy Norbeck [00:35:47]:
Yeah.

John Roedel [00:35:48]:
And when I write something, I’m usually writing from something that I I have an open wound or something inside of me that needs still to be untangled and not inside of me that needs to be untangled. And part of that process is carrying myself out to the public.

Nancy Norbeck [00:36:05]:
Yeah. And I I wanna talk about that a little bit more, but before we get too far away from it, I’m really curious to know if because as you said, you know, we don’t expect men to be vulnerable with this kind of thing, and a lot of the time, we don’t tolerate men being vulnerable with emotional stuff. Has there been an element of the reaction that reflects that? Like, do are there guys who just, like, rip you apart for this or or even women because we’re not necessarily any better? Or I’m wondering how that’s fallen out.

John Roedel [00:36:39]:
I do I do get some, pushback. Most of this if most of the things I get from guys are they’ll talk to me. They’ll bump into me at the grocery store, and they’ll say things like, I really like that post or whatever. What you were talking about there? I, you know, I understand. But they would never ever I would just say I would never ever say that on Facebook. I would never ever do that. Mhmm. So I get a lot of that.

John Roedel [00:37:03]:
I do get some of I I I do get some pushback from people who John me to prescribe, who who want me to say, okay. You said all these things about how you feel and how your heart feels, but where’s the self help in that? Where’s how do I use that to transform myself? And I would say to them, I’m the last person to ever explain anything like that. I leave my cell phone in the freezer at least once a week when I’m going to get something, I’ll replace it with my cell phone. I am not a smart person. I’m not here for that. I’m here to just pose these emotional prompts, and these and these things you need to think about. And and those are just based on what’s going on inside of me. But I do have I I think I I I do have some family members, not necessarily.

John Roedel [00:37:51]:
I so our my our oldest son, years years ago was diagnosed with autism about oh, I’ve been he’s 20 now, so like 18 years ago. And 18 years ago, the world’s view of autism was more or less from the movie Rayman with Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise. I didn’t really know anything about autism at the time. And certainly here in Wyoming, we weren’t necessarily a progressive hotbed for treating people living with autism. And so I remember early on, I’ve had family members tell me, don’t tell your don’t tell the teachers, don’t tell the doctors, don’t tell anybody about it because this is gonna put the stigma on him and on you and the whole family. And I remember at the time being scared to tell anybody about it because of that, because people their first reaction was, it’s a you know, back then, you know, if someone had a special needs or had a cognitive delay or disability they’re shushed about it. Now it’s just the, you know, interesting kid down the block. No one really talked about that person.

John Roedel [00:39:01]:
And it was definitely that was definitely part of my coding for his first couple of years as he kind of whispered about it. Mhmm. But the more the more I John and the more we talked about it with other people and we shared our experience of raising a child living with autism, the more it seemed like the less scary it was and the less stigma attached to it it was. And so the more we talked about other people, the better I felt about his autism. The more I shared about this is how scary he is as a parent to have a child who’s living, who can’t who’s 5 years old and can’t speak, compared to other 5 year olds, looks like he’s from a different planet. And here I am, and I’m grieving for him while he’s right here in front of me. It was these conflicts, emotions, and things like that that I was not prepared to deal with. But talking about it with other people made me feel better.

John Roedel [00:39:55]:
And that’s definitely probably, I never thought about it before. But when I I came to writing this thing off a John posted years later, it was definitely that same kind of thing. The more I talked about these things, the less scary they are. Yeah. The more I talked about depression or feeling worthless and these things that we all feel at one time in our life, the less of the scarlet letter I feel like I’m tearing around.

Nancy Norbeck [00:40:23]:
Yeah. I think that’s true pretty much for everybody. Just I mean, not that I can speak for everybody, but just, you know, anything anything you try to hide away, you’re giving power to.

John Roedel [00:40:41]:
And, yeah, it was just and so early on, it was just when I when I started really embracing writing, I I just thought, you know, aside John like, I’m just gonna be open, and I’m not gonna be perfect, and I’m not gonna be a person who’s like, this is how you get through it. I don’t know how we get through it except that we listen to one another, and we look out for one another, and we just give each other space, and we don’t try to scare each other into believing what we believe. And that’s kind of what my writing is, I think, is about. It’s just, I don’t know anything about this existence, but I think it’s beautiful and I think it’s an adventure. And I think even the worst parts of our story, I mean, in movies, some of the best parts of any movie are, like, the moments where everything looks like all is lost. I mean, everything is terrible. And we have those times in our life when we just crossroads with things, man. It’s just not gonna get better and things look dire.

John Roedel [00:41:45]:
And in those moments, there’s so many things that happened to us that we don’t recognize happening until 5 or 6 years later. We look back at it and say, wow. This person came out of nowhere at the right time or this thing happened or whatever, and it’s just little miracles. And so I just I think I’m just trying to write about that, about life is beautiful, it’s hard, it’s scary, it’s terrifying. I don’t know anything about it. I’m just I’m just this idiot putting my cell phone into the freezer. But, man, it’s a wonderful experience. And, you

Nancy Norbeck [00:42:17]:
know, I think we don’t recognize that enough. And I think, you know, maybe maybe we should all put our cell phones in freezer by accident more often. If it helps you to see that kind of thing Yes. And maybe that would be a good thing.

John Roedel [00:42:29]:
It definitely makes for interesting conversations with your cell phone cell phone provider when they have to document. They need your 3rd cell phone in the year when they John I’m some sort of cell phone, some sort of scam. I’m selling cell phones and then freeze I don’t know what to think. But yeah. I mean and that’s kind of probably what astime me a little bit of my writing career is I’m not I’m you know, at one point, I was in conversations with Hay House. They want I was part of a Hay House writing group, and I was contacted by them. Mhmm. And they’re like, these are really beautiful pieces.

John Roedel [00:43:02]:
Can you put them in, like, a 12 or 15 or 20 step kind of thing that gives, like, a kind of a a road map to someone feeling better about themselves? And I was like, dude, I don’t think anyone can really do that for another person. I think everyone’s got their own journey and their own jungle to get through. And I’m not qualified to do that, and so they’re like, well, David, we’re gonna find someone who is qualified to do that. That’s great, but that’s not really what I’m about.

Nancy Norbeck [00:43:30]:
Yeah. And and, you know, when when you mentioned before that that it’s not therapy, but it is therapeutic, I can’t deny that after I started reading them, there was a a really big part of myself. It’s I was like, I wanna do this. I wanna sit down and write these. And it it’s tricky for me because it it you know, in the writing community, there is this very strong ethic of you don’t steal somebody else’s thing. And yet, I also know if I did something like that, I would end up with completely different things than what you have. And

John Roedel [00:44:00]:
what I’m doing is very generic. I mean, the conversation with God is, you know, a best selling acclaimed book out there. I didn’t necessarily think, oh, I’m gonna steal that and make this my own. It’s it’s it’s a very kind of cliche kind of, generic format. And that’s probably why I started it. And it wasn’t like, oh, this is really creative. No. But what is is and you’re you’re exactly right.

John Roedel [00:44:26]:
Everyone’s story is a little bit different. We all experienced suffering in our own way, but suffering is suffering to everyone. We all have challenges in our own way, but challenges are challenges. Like, I was explaining to someone else the other day in your interview. It’s like, I my journey through grief and losing a loved one is radically that that that that story of losing a parent or whatever someone you love in your life, that story is different. The grief for everybody is a little bit universal. We all feel that loss. We all feel that same thing.

John Roedel [00:45:02]:
That’s how we get through that loss. How we the people we meet and the experiences we have are all radically different. We can all write a piece to God about grief and how to get over it, and we all have a little bit different seasoning to put into that castle.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:18]:
Yeah. Definitely.

John Roedel [00:45:20]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:21]:
I mean, I I had this conversation with one of my grad school advisers a couple years ago when I had it turned out misheard or not so much misheard, but misspelled in my head a character from a doctor who episode called the Fisher King.

John Roedel [00:45:38]:
Oh, yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:39]:
I thought, you know, is this the, you know, legend, Fisher King, or have they put a spin on it and this means, like, a crack? And and I told her, you know, I was really kinda disappointed when I saw that it was the legend spelling, you know, like, going fishing spelling. And that now I wanted to know what the crack kind of Fisher King was because I was sure there was a great idea in it, and she wrote back to me and said, I know exactly what I would do with that, but I can’t because it’s yours. And I replied and I said, you know what? What you would do with it is completely different than what I would do with it, so I think you should run with it. Right. And if I ever come up with my own thing, I’ll write my own thing. And then it worked for the book she was working on. She sent me a copy, and I can’t read that book because I still haven’t figured out what I want.

John Roedel [00:46:31]:
That’s it. I mean, that’s exactly right. You know, not to draw everything back to improv, but I could most of the time when I’m on stage performing improv, and it’s been a while, thanks to Captain COVID. But, like, 9 times out of 10, I’m gonna get the same suggestions every night. The audience usually gives the same 20 suggestions for whatever. But if I’m there with my castmate might get that same suggestion that I got the bag before, and they’re gonna turn it into a completely different universe, a parallel universe. And there might be some themes that are the same, but it’s their John, and it’s their own interpretation of that. And that’s what makes this amazing.

John Roedel [00:47:12]:
We are we are all experiencing this amazing ride in our own way, in our own perspective. And my perspective of God and spirituality is radically different than someone down the street. And that’s great. It’s I only struggle with the people who want everyone to have the exact same experience with their spirituality. And Right. They said, no. This is this is how it is. And that’s where I struggle.

John Roedel [00:47:39]:
And that’s that’s more my issues than theirs.

Nancy Norbeck [00:47:43]:
That’s fair. Well, I think it would be great to share some of these since we’ve been talking about these. And and I’m told that in order to do this, I have to play God, which is a request I have never had before.

John Roedel [00:47:58]:
Well, I just thought I’m you know, if I were a Hollywood casting agent and I was talking to both of us, deciding who’s going to play God in this, it would definitely not be me. So I’ve been ruled out of the role of God just based on about a 1,000 different anecdotal reasons I could give you. So, yes, I think you should probably play God.

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:19]:
That’s that’s totally fair. I will do my best. And we do have a little bit of an echo going on here, but we’ll hope that that this works anyway.

John Roedel [00:48:28]:
Dramatic echo for god.

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:30]:
There we go. So we’re gonna start with an early one.

John Roedel [00:48:35]:
Yes. And and these early this early one was I I do remember this was during my first 40 days when I was just treating this as fun little conversations between God and myself without any plans of where this was going. And I think this one is called Waffles. And in this, I will play me. In in these conversations, there’s only usually 2 voices. There’s me and there’s God. And although the book is entitled, Hey God. Hey John, I intentionally don’t I I God’s God says my name at the beginning and then that, it’s just me.

John Roedel [00:49:12]:
Because I want the reader to, like, put themselves in it. I don’t want it to be about John. Mhmm. I’m not that interesting. So okay. So I’ll start. Hey, God.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:25]:
Hey, John.

John Roedel [00:49:26]:
I’m gonna train.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:28]:
Great. It’s been a long time.

John Roedel [00:49:30]:
Okay. You ready?

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:33]:
Go for it.

John Roedel [00:49:34]:
I want waffles.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:38]:
I think you have me confused with room service.

John Roedel [00:49:42]:
Make sure they bring some extra syrup up with them. I like the sandwich maple syrup I can consume before I start hallucinating.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:52]:
You should try praying for other people.

John Roedel [00:49:54]:
Oh, You think I should pray for someone else?

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:57]:
Yep. Okay.

John Roedel [00:49:59]:
I pray that someone will bring me some waffles.

Nancy Norbeck [00:50:04]:
I’m taking the rest of the day off.

John Roedel [00:50:08]:
And that was kind of the how those posts for the first 6, 7 months went. It was it was just poking fun at the idea that people pray to God for whatever they do want it, for funny things, for my sports team, for my kid to get straight a’s, for my body to start looking more like joobla. That was part of my dating, my BD prayer. And and so this this next post, this next one, I think we’re gonna do is the one that probably you led me to connect with you, if I’m guessing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:50:45]:
Yes.

John Roedel [00:50:46]:
And this one is remarkable. People have asked me about this post and asked me the genesis and thinking that and I I wish I had a great, really emotional story to tell people about how I came about writing this one. I I don’t remember writing it. This post has been shared about 5 or 6000000 times. In guesstimate at this point. It’s the first post of mine that really went viral. I so I I started this I started writing these conversations in 2015, and I’ve grinded during that time to about 20,000, 23,000 followers. But it’s been, like, a little bit at a time.

John Roedel [00:51:23]:
I’ve never really had a post really move around quite a bit. It’s just been slow cut. This one, I wrote in 2017. And I wrote it I don’t remember writing it. I wish I could have a great story that I was writing John a beach and this bolt of lightnings went above the head and the dust flew and tears poured down my eyes, and those tears turned into ink, which I used to write this book. So I don’t have a great story. I just wrote it from a place of being a 40 something year old person feeling kind of untethered to what’s my purpose? What who am I? Mhmm. I’m a guy who all my other friends are, like, driving fancy cars and talking about their corner office or, you know, their law degree or whatever there is to do.

John Roedel [00:52:08]:
And here I am driving a minivan, writing posts on Facebook and making, like, 30¢ a copy of a book. So I was was struggling with and this is this is obviously two and a half years into writing these posts. And I was starting to worry about, is this what I’m gonna do for the rest of my life? And I was so concerned with who I needed to change and become. And that’s what this, this post came from. It got shared quite a bit, to my surprise. So in 2017, I wrote it, and it got, like, a 100 likes, and it was great. You know? Everyone virtually high fives each other. And then this last February, every now and then, I’ll I’ll reshare a post from the past.

Nancy Norbeck [00:52:53]:
Mhmm.

John Roedel [00:52:53]:
And so it just happened to be I reshared this one right at the beginning of the pandemic, and it seemed like it resonated with people and their experience of how life felt. Life was changing, and people felt like they were breaking and their perception of life and what mattered was being challenged. And I think, again, I wish I could tell people, no, I knew this post would really resonate with you because of what’s going on in the world. But, no. I just picked this one out of random to reshare and it seemed like it connected with people in a way that I could have never ever imagined. So and I don’t I I don’t have a name for this one because this one isn’t in a book. This one is just one I posted and wrote on Facebook and just put out there. And let me find it on my end.

John Roedel [00:53:43]:
I had it. I just had it in front of me, and it disappeared.

Nancy Norbeck [00:53:47]:
No worries. It’s interesting because I will bet you that this has been shared even more than you would imagine just because I’m looking at a post that somebody else copied and pasted the text and put your name at the bottom. So, you know, and I have no idea as people have shared it from here. So it’s probably gotten around a bit more than you think.

John Roedel [00:54:10]:
Maybe. And I yeah. I don’t understand how new this works. There is a there is a gentleman, an actor. I think he was a daytime actor in Czechoslovakia who was like a daytime so star there. And I’m not gonna pronounce his name because I would butcher it and I would humiliate him and myself by trying to do that. But he he did a written he did, like, a spoken word interpretation of it. And and that alone got a 1000000 views on his YouTube.

John Roedel [00:54:39]:
So Wow. And so for me, that’s again, I wish I could say, oh, no. I I knew I knew they’re supposed to do that, but I have a clue. So I hope we have the same version because every now and then, someone would tinker with it a little bit. But we’re gonna improvise. Oh, love that. We’re gonna say yes, and.

Nancy Norbeck [00:54:58]:
We’re gonna do our guys.

John Roedel [00:54:59]:
A yes, and this moment. And sooner,

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:01]:
we’ll

John Roedel [00:55:02]:
have the same version out there. But, and and once again, just because you did so amazing, you should play John again in this. And this will kinda show a little bit how I started writing these posts early, very lighthearted, self concerned about what people thought, trying to make people laugh and, you know, feel comfortable with me doing this. And this was definitely a little bit more I’m not okay.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:29]:
Oh, yeah.

John Roedel [00:55:30]:
So okay. Hey, God.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:33]:
Hello?

John Roedel [00:55:33]:
I’m falling apart. Can you put me back together?

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:38]:
I I would rather not. Why? Because you aren’t a puzzle.

John Roedel [00:55:43]:
What about all the pieces of my life that are falling down onto the ground?

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:47]:
Let them stay there for a while. They fell off for a reason. Take some time and decide if you need any of those pieces back.

John Roedel [00:55:54]:
You don’t understand. I’m breaking down.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:58]:
No. You don’t understand. You’re breaking through. What you’re feeling are just growing pains. You are shedding the things and the people in your life that are holding you back. You aren’t falling apart. You are falling into place. Relax.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:13]:
Take some deep breaths and allow those things you don’t need anymore to fall off of you. Quit holding John to the pieces that don’t fit you anymore. Let them fall off. Let them go.

John Roedel [00:56:25]:
Once I start doing that, what’s gonna be left of me?

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:28]:
Only the very best pieces of you.

John Roedel [00:56:31]:
But I’m scared of changing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:56:34]:
I keep telling you, you aren’t changing. You are becoming. You’re becoming who? Becoming who I created you to be, a person of light and love and charity and hope and courage and joy and mercy and grace and compassion. I made you for more than the shallow pieces you have decided to adorn yourself with, that you cling to with such greed and fear. Let those things fall off of you. I love you. Don’t change. Become.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:02]:
Become. Become who I made you to be. I’m going to keep telling you this until you remember it.

John Roedel [00:57:10]:
There goes another piece.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:12]:
Yep. Let it be.

John Roedel [00:57:14]:
So, wait, I’m not broken?

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:18]:
Of course not. But you are breaking like the dawn. It’s a new day. Become.

John Roedel [00:57:27]:
So as you can see, there’s a little bit of a difference. There’s a little bit of an arc from that first box that is this one. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:37]:
Just a little. But but, yeah, there’s there’s definitely a reason why that has made the rounds like it has.

John Roedel [00:57:43]:
Yeah. It’s it’s been it’s been really incredible. I I I’ve been very fortunate. I met a lot of amazing people, and and it’s definitely challenged me to try to take my writing a little bit more seriously. I I still I I still don’t consider myself a professional writer, but I’m trying to do more things. I’m trying to act more professional about it. Like, you know, schedule this with you and and be to me responding to emails and and being an adult. But it’s been an amazing experience.

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:15]:
Well, I would I would like to personally inform your guidance counselor that you’re a fantastic writer.

John Roedel [00:58:22]:
Well, I I As as

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:24]:
should be obvious at this point in this I

John Roedel [00:58:26]:
was trying to track him down and let him know. He was also he was also my journalism. I took a journalism class in college, which was an abject disaster, and I think that’s where he formed this opinion of me. And I I still remember I still remember that class that every time I came in and he said, I’m going to have a drinking problem because of you. So I maybe hopefully, I can find out and say, you know, stop drinking. It’s okay. Everything’s gotta be Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:56]:
Oh, what a thing to say to someone.

John Roedel [00:58:57]:
Yeah. I mean, it’s amazing the things we say to people that we don’t know at the time. We’re just saying them, but that they sink in. He doesn’t remember saying that to me. Yes. But as a 19 year old kid, I remember that he said that to me. Right. That’s just part of that’s just part of life is we all get tangled up with one another and we don’t know when we’re hurting someone’s feelings and when it’s gonna become someone’s.

John Roedel [00:59:20]:
And they’re gonna be talked about in a podcast 20 some years later. You know? Right.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:25]:
So Well and I I’m curious about one other thing, which is when did you start doing video?

John Roedel [00:59:33]:
Recently. Recently, because there was a we I like, I I do live in Cheyenne, Wyoming. We’re not known as a hotbed of poetry here. If you you know, Garth Brooks is, I think, our our poet laureate here in Wyoming. But I did go to a coffee house thing once, and they said, hey. We’re gonna do some poetry. You should recite some poetry. I know you posted on Facebook.

John Roedel [01:00:00]:
You’re kind of in a midlife crisis. We see that you’re posting some Facebooks and you should come. And so I went and I found I connect more to it when I write, when I say it out loud, when I I’ve written something. And a lot of times, I write in a way in which I feel like I’m speaking it, which is not how you’re supposed to write anything. I I I do remember that from my composition classes. Like, you know, I’m saying, well, hello everybody, and then start your piece. But then you would when you’re writing Right. When you’re speaking to a group.

John Roedel [01:00:28]:
And I definitely write things in a way that I feel like I’m speaking them already. I feel like I’m having a conversation with somebody across. I mean, obviously, the Hey John, Hey John’s are all conversation based, but even when I just write a straight up poem, I feel like I’m sitting across from someone in a coffee house and I’m telling somebody exactly what I need to say, and I try to write in a way that’s informal, but it’s but it’s representative of how I’m feeling in that moment. And so I found saying it out loud helped me figure out which pieces I wanted, I loved, and I needed to perform them. And it just kinda fell into the same thing. It’s like, well, if you’re going to make videos of yourself doing that, you might as well go the entire, not 10 yards, and put them out there so your teenage children have to cringe every time they see their dad has done nothing. So maybe there’s some of the things that I’m trying to punish my children by being their dad who has videos on the Internet.

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:27]:
Well, I I stumbled on the 10 seconds video the other week right around Thanksgiving. And, I mean, from having read what I’d already read, I wasn’t entirely surprised. I wasn’t expecting something completely unlike anything I’d ever seen from you before, but it really blew me away. It made me cry. And I have been listening to it every morning since then.

John Roedel [01:01:54]:
Oh, no. Yeah. I, again, I I don’t know where that came from except I remember at the time feeling bad Roedel by myself, my image, and just those things, those little lies, those little poisons we tell ourselves. Those little those little paper cuts we give ourselves, and it builds up over time when you reach that breaking point. And I remember particularly one day feeling terrible. And I thought, what do I need someone to tell me right now that even if it’s all just rainbows and BS, but what could someone tell me right now that would help remind me of our inherent dignity and worth as a human, as a this person that I believe created out of nothingness by something that I don’t understand, what could someone tell me about that to make me pull me out of this horrible place? And so I I wrote it from there as if someone was talking to another person in in the moment of crisis. And I I like, at the beginning, I think the beginning of the poem starts to say, I know I’m late. I know I have to get to my train or something like that.

John Roedel [01:03:07]:
And I wrote it as if it were John conversation between 2 people. 1 person is lost and hurt, and the other person is there to be a rock for them. And really that’s what all relationships are for. We become in relationship with one another. So during those moments, someone’s going to gain a safe Roedel. Someone’s gonna be there to help pull them out of the darkness. Otherwise, we’d all be robots. And so I wrote it based on that, based on an imaginary person standing in front of me reminding me of that.

Nancy Norbeck [01:03:40]:
Well, it’s it’s phenomenal. I mean, you don’t really know where it’s going when it starts, and then it sorta hits you over the head in a really good way. And I think that the reason that, you know, it got to me was because we’re not used to hearing somebody say those kinds of things to us. You know? You are this beautiful thing, and you deserve to be here, and you’re amazing. And you do it in a whole lot more detail than that, and I swear every time I listen to it, I notice something I didn’t didn’t notice before. And and it’s really powerful that way, which is why I decided this would be a great way to start my day, and that’s what I’ve been doing. So

John Roedel [01:04:27]:
That’s amazing. It’s just all these unspoken things we don’t say to one another, that we’re all afraid to say things. We’re so guarded with one another because we don’t want someone to think that we love them. You know? I I grew up I grew up in a house where my parents loved me very much. They took care of me, me and my brother. I was a little bit of an alien to them. I was definitely it was definitely not what they were expecting in a kid. But it wasn’t necessarily a family that when I went to bed at night, you know, it was kind of a professional good night and we’ll see you at work tomorrow kind of thing.

John Roedel [01:05:01]:
Where but I know they loved me, they just didn’t say a lot. And I think on their deathbeds, they both did say a lot. And it’s one of those things like, man, I don’t wanna be a person who has these words stuck on my tongue in 40 years that I wish I would have said at the time because we don’t know what tomorrow brings. And certainly this pandemic has taught us we have no idea what next the next 5 minutes is gonna bring. And so, dictate everything you need to say to someone right now. And I know it’s cliche, but I guess, you know, that’s I I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Say tell the people in your life how much they mean to you. Forgive people because you don’t wanna be 70 years old sitting in a chair looking back at all these missed opportunities in which you could have saved someone’s life by telling them that they’re beautiful and they’re worthy.

John Roedel [01:05:53]:
And you don’t you don’t wanna be the person who won’t let people say those things to them. And that’s the other side of the John is sometimes we don’t let people say those things to us. They might say it, we just don’t believe them. It’s it’s kind of a double Roedel. Like, I’ve had plenty times in my life where I felt really bad. And someone will say something, but I won’t let him. I won’t listen because I don’t I don’t wanna believe them. And so that’s what that piece is about.

John Roedel [01:06:20]:
It’s a very raw emotional moment between 2 people.

Nancy Norbeck [01:06:25]:
I think even even when you’re not in that place, it can be very hard to hear that much. I’m not sure what the right word is. I mean, it it really it’s almost like listening to it is like listening to a waterfall of all the things you ever wanted someone to tell you, but that you’ve been afraid weren’t true.

John Roedel [01:06:46]:
Right. No.

Nancy Norbeck [01:06:47]:
And I think that that makes it very hard to hear even even when you’re not actively in a place where you’re pushing it away.

John Roedel [01:06:56]:
Right. Right. And it was hard I do remember that when it was very difficult for me to write. And even when I recorded it and put it on Facebook as a video, I usually only do things in one take. And if I screw up halfway through, that’s just my wake and nod to whoever’s watching. He’s like, yes. I’m not a professional. This is, you know, we did not I’m gonna fail as much as I’m gonna succeed.

John Roedel [01:07:21]:
We all do, so let’s all get over it. But that was when I think I took a couple takes because I became really uncomfortable with some of the things I was even telling myself. But that’s still the work that needs to be done. That’s the imperfection that I still carry with me, but that that piece is definitely one of my favorites.

Nancy Norbeck [01:07:41]:
Yeah. Likewise. And and, you know, the other thing is I think that it wouldn’t be so hard to hear those things if we didn’t know somewhere that they’re true.

John Roedel [01:07:49]:
Right. Right. And it hurts because sometimes we know we know that we’re worthy and we know that we’re we’re we have a purpose and we know that I have as much right to my life as anyone else. And just because someone might have an easier life or whatever, it doesn’t make my life any less worthy in the eyes of God or love or source or whatever that is, but we forget it along the way. And then to be reminded of that, it stings because we think back to all the times in our lives that we didn’t treat ourselves with those that respect, and we didn’t treat ourselves with dignity. And we’ve looked back and say I mean, I looked back and there’s been probably years decades in which I had forgotten those those things. And you look back and said, damn, what how much how many missed chances did I have to give myself forgiveness? Yeah. So, yes, it it it’s a tough one.

Nancy Norbeck [01:08:49]:
It is, but it’s a good one, and that’s part of why I decided something I should listen to more often. I think we could all all use ahead of that every once in a while. Yeah. So I’m very, very grateful to you for writing it and recording it. I think it’s even more powerful because of the way that you recorded it. So and I’m grateful to you for coming and talking to me for a while. This has been fabulous.

John Roedel [01:09:13]:
Oh, no. I’m I’m I’m very, very grateful. This has been amazing.

Nancy Norbeck [01:09:18]:
That’s this week’s episode. My thanks to John Roedel for joining me, and as always, to you for listening. Do check out the links in the show notes and share this episode with a friend. See you next time. You can find show notes, the 6 creative beliefs that are screwing you up, and more at fycuriosity.com. I’d also love for you to join the conversation on Instagram. You’ll find me at fycuriosity. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade.

Nancy Norbeck [01:09:47]:
If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners. See you next time.