Poetry and Viral Success with Jennae Cecelia

Jennae Cecelia is a best-selling author and poet known for her poetry books, Uncaged Wallflower, The Sun Will Rise and So Will We, and Healing for No One But Me. Her mission as an author is to comfort and encourage people. In addition to writing, she is focused on helping other authors learn how to successfully put their writing out into the world. Jennae joins me to talk about how she got her start with poetry, including her family’s reaction to the idea of poetry as a career; the unexpected experience of having a viral self-published poetry book; how she helps other authors master the art of self-publishing; what it’s like writing custom poetry for others, and more.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 Introduction
01:10 Jennae discusses her childhood imagination and family influences
03:55 Role models and seeing creativity as a realistic pursuit
05:16 Leaning into creativity after early publishing success
08:07 Family reactions to pursuing poetry as a career
10:49 Reflecting on misconceptions about job security and risks
13:39 Jennae’s self-publishing strategies and viral book success
16:56 Building momentum with multiple books and Amazon rankings
20:36 The importance of poetry in paperback form
22:38 Impacts of viral success on her perspective and career
26:14 Jennae’s writing process, journey from simplicity to detail
30:07 Finding readers through specificity in poetry
33:00 Advice for authors and importance of perseverance
37:34 Managing perfectionism in writing and publishing
40:49 Custom poetry projects and their meaningful connections
45:56 Emotional experiences writing for others, from weddings to memorials
49:12 Deciding to traditionally publish for broader reach and goals
55:09 Reflecting on the challenges and anticipation of traditional publishing

Show Links: Jennae Cecelia

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Transcript: Jennae Cecelia

Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity, ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Jennae Cecelia is a best selling author and poet known for her poetry books, Uncaged Wallflower, The Sun Will Rise and So Will We, and Healing for No One But Me. Her mission as an author is to comfort and encourage people. In addition to writing, she is focused on helping other authors learn how to successfully put their writing out into the world. Janae joins me to talk about how she got her start with poetry, including her family’s reaction to the idea of poetry as a career, the unexpected experience of having a viral self published poetry book, how she helps other authors master the art of self publishing, what it’s like writing custom poetry for others, and more.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:00]:
I think you’ll really enjoy my conversation with Jennae Cecelia. Jennae, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.

Jennae Cecelia [00:01:08]:
Thank you so much for having me.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:10]:
I start everybody out with the same question. Were you a creative kid, or did you discover your creative side later on?

Jennae Cecelia [00:01:18]:
I was always a creative kid. I feel like I’ve leaned into my creative side pretty much my whole life. My parents and, specifically, my dad really pushed using your imagination. We weren’t really, like, a video game household. So it was like, go outside, use your imagination, do things that force you to come up with ideas. And I think for my whole life, I’ve been interested in the arts, whether it’s painting, drawing, writing to the point where it’s just something that has always felt like it’s a part of my life. And my grandmother growing up, she’s an amazing, oil painter. And so that like, seeing her do that kind of always inspired me a little bit where it’s it’s it’s just so cool to see an adult that is leaning into creativity even though for her it was just a hobby.

Jennae Cecelia [00:02:09]:
Still seeing someone doing that, that’s not something you see a lot, especially now as, like, I’m an adult and I realize there’s not a lot of adults who have creative hobbies like that unless it is their job. And then, you know, obviously, they lean into it more. But, yeah, as a child, I just was in love with anything creativity. Even school wise, I was not the best with, like, the math and the science and all of those things. I’m like, please just give me the art classes and the English classes. Like, that’s what I can thrive in and everything else. I’m like, not so much.

Nancy Norbeck [00:02:43]:
Yeah. I hear that. But I’m fascinated that you’ve had, you know, your dad pushing imagination and your grandmother as a role model. Was was was your grandmother, like, actively encouraging you? Did you did you paint with her or did you, you know, interact with her with that at all?

Jennae Cecelia [00:03:01]:
I wish I would have painted with her more. I didn’t really she she’s kind of a person who liked to do her creative work on her own, like, alone. And so she had, like, a setup in her basement where she would do her oil paintings, and she would do still life and people. So, usually, she’s doing it directly from a a photograph maybe she’s taken. My grandpa also, which is her husband, was a photographer for hobbies, so he would always be developing film and things like that. But I never got to pay with her, but I just feel like being around that energy of their home where it’s like her home is filled with the paintings that she’s made and photographs that my grandpa has taken. And, you know, even now I have her paintings up in my house and my family. Like, everyone has her stuff, so it’s just so cool to see that, even though, like I said, it was just her hobby.

Nancy Norbeck [00:03:55]:
Yeah. I think it’s interesting how, you know, having having that even if you don’t participate in it shows you what’s possible. Mhmm. It’s kinda like, you know, when you when you hear about actors who have kids who wanna act, like, those kids are raised seeing that it’s possible. Yes. And a lot of the actors will say, you know, that their their their kids have decided that they wanna act and they’re like, oh, god, don’t do it, you know? But but their kids know it’s possible. And the same thing, you know, even if you didn’t get to participate with your grandmother, I mean, you’ve just reminded me that my grandmother used to paint. I never saw her do it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:04:31]:
I have one of her paintings on the wall in in my bedroom. But, you know and she painted from photos from magazines and things like that. But, you know, I I think she kinda stopped doing it by the time I was born, which is why I never saw her do it, but but they were there. So, you know, it’s it’s a thing. It’s like it it becomes a real thing when you see someone that you’re close to doing it, and it’s a really powerful role model for kids to just be like, yeah. You know, you can paint, you can draw, you can write, you can take photos, you can dance, you can play instruments, you can do all of these things. It’s not unreasonable or lofty or whatever. It’s a real thing.

Jennae Cecelia [00:05:16]:
Yeah. I 100% agree.

Nancy Norbeck [00:05:19]:
Yeah. So when did you really start leaning into creativity as a serious thing?

Jennae Cecelia [00:05:26]:
Oh, as a serious thing, probably not until so I had self published my first book, and even then, I was like, oh, this is just gonna be a hobby. Like, I this is just something I’ve always wanted to do. I love writing. I love poetry. And, really, it wasn’t until I had my second book go viral on Amazon and become a bestseller that I realized, wow. This is something I can actually take seriously. And it was in a really pivotal point in my life that this happened because I was in my last year of college, and I was a nanny full time, and I didn’t know what I really wanted to do with my life. I have always kind of struggled with that because for so long, I was told, you know, a creative job isn’t a job you can just have and have that be the only job.

Jennae Cecelia [00:06:16]:
It’s like you have to have something else and that job. And really around then when it took off, I was at a turning point where I was like, okay. What do I do? Do I go do I finish college and go and get, like, a traditional job with a degree that I’ve now acquired? But at the time too, it was hard because no one in my family had gotten a four year degree, so it was kind of already a big deal that I was even going to college and doing all of that. So then to kind of have to say, hey. Actually, I don’t think I’m gonna use this degree in what I thought I was going to use it for. I’m actually gonna pursue writing poetry. Definitely for my family and friends was a little jarring for them. But for me, I just realized, hey.

Jennae Cecelia [00:07:05]:
What I’m putting out there, people like. They want to buy. They wanna be a part of. I love doing it because I didn’t wanna have a job that I worked at for years and years and years and dreaded going to. I didn’t necessarily ever expect to be working for myself. I guess just part of my job in being a creative is you become an entrepreneur along with it where it’s like you have your own business. But even that aspect is nice because it gives me the flexibility to do what I want to do and set up my days how I want to set them up. But, yeah, I guess circling back to your original question, just probably once my second book really took off was when I just started to realize like, hey, you you can do something with creativity.

Jennae Cecelia [00:07:49]:
You don’t have to have this and another job alongside it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:07:55]:
When you say that that it was jarring for your friends and I’m guessing especially your family, how jarring was it? How how did they react?

Jennae Cecelia [00:08:07]:
I feel like nobody said anything too directly to my face in the sense of, you know, anything extremely insulting, but you could just tell when I said, you know, I think I’m gonna pursue this. There would be times where they’d be like but, like, what are you gonna do along with it? Or what happens if this happens? Or there’s no security in that type of job. And I get that because, you know, you are making a different income every single month, and it’s not the same and it doesn’t look the same as, you know, my friends that work a corporate job where it’s like this is their guaranteed paycheck, and they have paid holidays and paid leave. And I don’t know what any of that is like, but it just it’s just a very different setup. And for me, when I was telling them, hey. I wanna go down this path to chase my dream and really be a writer and follow follow that path only. I think a lot of it from for them came from they’ve never seen they don’t have a person in their life that has done something like that. So what’s jarring to them is, like, realizing, like, wow.

Jennae Cecelia [00:09:11]:
Is that actually a possibility? Because, like me, we’ve always been told that it’s not and that you’ll end up broke or not making money and then having to eventually get a job later or being in debt. And I just think there’s a lot of misconceptions with that because I have friends who are constantly getting laid off or, you know, having to find different jobs, and there’s really no security in that either in the sense of, yeah, you have a job and, you know, the pay the paycheck’s the same, but you could very well lose your job as well. I mean, even COVID was a great example. I have a sister who was a waitress, and you would never think you would be able to be a waitress. But during that time, it’s like, you no longer can be because the restaurants are closed. And who would have ever thought that? Because, like, that’s a job that would never go away. So just I think along the way, the more I’ve talked to everybody and also the better I’ve done in my career, they’ve gone away from being so nervous about it or scared for me or concerned. And now I’m just like, okay.

Jennae Cecelia [00:10:11]:
This is this is actually something that you can do and, be really good at and successful at.

Nancy Norbeck [00:10:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and I think it’s a great a great point, you know, that I’ve often thought security is an illusion. Mhmm. And and we tell ourselves that it’s not because we gotta have a way to get through the day. I am. Like, we we have to believe that the job that we go to every day is a form of security because if we don’t, we will lose our minds. But like you say, it can go away at any moment without warning, without notice, and it could be a pandemic.

Nancy Norbeck [00:10:49]:
It could just be a sudden layoff. It could be anything. It could be, you know, you get sick and you can’t go to work anymore and they, you know, say, see you later. It it could be so many different things that you can’t see coming, and that security that you thought you had is gone. Mhmm. So so, yeah, security is really an illusion. And I think in some ways, it’s a necessary illusion, but that doesn’t make it any any less of one. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:11:19]:
But but in your case, you know, when when you’re talking about your family’s reaction, it’s kind of like, you know, of of all of the creative things that you could have told your family that you were gonna do, saying, I’m gonna write poetry for a living, probably was, like, the the one that people associate the most with people starving. Like, even actors, you know, famously, oh, they get jobs waiting tables. Right? So they they make ends meet. But poets? Really? You know? So I can just imagine. I know what I would have heard if I had said that. It would not have been pretty. So

Jennae Cecelia [00:12:03]:
I did find out in passing, not one of not one of my family members, but a friend of a friend had said to someone that I was gonna end up living in a van down by the river if I, like, chased being a poet. And I was like, oh, I feel like people now don’t realize how expensive those vans are to live in, though. Like, there’s people actually wanting to live in vans by the river, and they’re not cheap.

Nancy Norbeck [00:12:25]:
We’ve we’ve come a long way from Chris Farley and SNL. But

Jennae Cecelia [00:12:31]:
But I also think I was gonna say this too. When I started, this was about nine go nine ish years ago. There wasn’t a lot of people using social media then to promote a business or be their own business or even influencers weren’t even that much of a thing. There’s, like, bloggers and stuff like that. And so now I feel like had it been 2024 and I was the 21 year old I was then, and I came and said I was gonna do this, I don’t think it would have been as jarring for people, but I also think just the time period of when I was doing it just wasn’t as normal to, like, use your Instagram to promote your work. And, like, all my other friends are posting their food, like, food photos and photos of their dog. I mean, people obviously still do that, but I’m, like, on there every day, like, here’s a poem and, like, engage with this poem and using it in a much different way. So I also think the time period was a big part in it as well.

Nancy Norbeck [00:13:25]:
Yeah. Well and you also mentioned, you know, having a self published book go viral on Amazon, and I’m very curious to hear how that happened because it is certainly not everyone’s self publishing experience.

Jennae Cecelia [00:13:39]:
No. It definitely isn’t. I my first book I self published, it did not do very well. It maybe sold, like, 10 copies. It was mostly to friends and family. And I realized I went into it with no strategy. I didn’t know the business side whatsoever. And at the time I had released the first book, it was thicker.

Jennae Cecelia [00:13:58]:
It was, like, 220 pages. I’ve listed it for about $20, I wanna say, but I had no audience at this time. So I’m trying to pitch a book to pretty much no one, but also I’m asking them to spend $20 on something. And I realized that my first book needed to be more of something that was building me up credibility, and I just needed to get it into people’s hands in order for them to realize, like, hey, this is good, and I want more of this. So with my second book, we my husband and I, who was my boyfriend at the time, kinda came up with this strategy because he’s an entrepreneur. And when I first met him, I sat next to him in class, and he said he was an entrepreneur. I never even heard the word. I was like, what does that even mean? And so he was, like, really good on the business side.

Jennae Cecelia [00:14:40]:
So we came up with a strategy that we were going to make the book shorter and much cheaper in order to just get it into people’s hands and build up the credibility and get a little bit more of a following behind my work and my name. And so with the second book, we made it just about, like, 80 pages. We listed it for $5.50, put it on Amazon. And the categories that I were in at the time, there wasn’t a lot of poetry books then. Now there’s, like, a whole ton of poets that have joined, but this was kind of the start of the resurgence of modern day poetry. And so it really helped that there wasn’t a lot of competition at that time. But what had happened is there was a book out at the time called Milk and Honey, and her book came out maybe six to seven months before my first one. And since there wasn’t a lot of competition on the Amazon charts, my second book was getting recommended a lot with hers.

Jennae Cecelia [00:15:38]:
So when you go on Amazon and you buy something, it’ll tell you. If you liked this, you might also like this book. And so what was happening from there is, like I said, there wasn’t a lot of other options. So people are like, oh, I want I wanna read more poetry. Who can I read? This book’s being recommended. So I was noticing it was getting purchased a lot with her book because they were being paired as, you know, this would this is something you might also like. Not that they were, like, similar at all in genre or not genre, style of writing. It was just the fact that we were both poets at that time.

Jennae Cecelia [00:16:12]:
But from there, I think my first month, I had sold the first month that book came out, I think it sold about 400 copies, which for me was just absolutely insane because I’ve never even seen past the teens. And from By the time it was Christmas, I was selling a few thousand of it each month. Wow. And that was so it came out on October. So two months later, it was selling a few thousand. And at that time, I think what a lot of people ask me now is, oh, did you have a big social media following? Because everyone associates a social media following with why you’re doing well, and I didn’t. At that time, I probably only had, like, a thousand followers. It wasn’t anything crazy or big, so it also was telling me that these people weren’t coming.

Jennae Cecelia [00:16:56]:
Like, the success of the book wasn’t coming from what I was doing on social media. It was strictly having to do with the rankings in the Amazon charts. And now when I talk with a lot of authors that I work with, I tell them that, and that is still true to this day that it’s not necessarily about your social media following. Obviously, that helps a lot, but the Amazon charts are everything and being able to rank in there the right way helps people know, oh, I might wanna buy this book as well. So that’s kind of how the success of that book took off. I think a lot of it was good timing. The pricing, like I said, that really helped people didn’t feel like they were investing too much, and then they got to read my work. And what ended up actually happening at the end of it was they read one that book, and they ended up going back and buying my first book.

Jennae Cecelia [00:17:41]:
And then that book ended up becoming, like, top on the bestseller charts as well because they wanted to read more of what I had written.

Nancy Norbeck [00:17:51]:
That that makes so much sense, and it I wanna say it’s clever that you had the first one sitting there when the second one came out, but you didn’t plan it that way. But it’s still kinda clever that it worked out that way. You know?

Jennae Cecelia [00:18:05]:
Yeah. I didn’t plan it that way, but I did notice pretty quickly that I said, we need to get I need to get three books out pretty quick. So I had the first, I had the second. And since the second was doing well, I really want to get out a third. So that was another thing that I think really helped was I was tripling my sales because I had three three things. So people were typically coming in. By April, I had so a full year of being an author, I had three books. So when people were buying from me, they were typically buying all three, which most authors at that time would still only have one, so then you’re only making one sale.

Jennae Cecelia [00:18:38]:
And so that was another strategy that really worked well for me at the time was with building up my credibility and then also just helping me get the sales that I was looking for.

Nancy Norbeck [00:18:47]:
Were these ebooks or were they paper?

Jennae Cecelia [00:18:51]:
These were both ebooks that came back.

Nancy Norbeck [00:18:54]:
Mhmm.

Jennae Cecelia [00:18:55]:
Mostly, though, with poetry, how it works, it’s very, very, very different, than typical nonfiction or fiction books. But with poetry, it is still the the preferred way to read it is a paperback. So mostly people a lot of authors will tell you that they sell a lot more e back or, sorry, ebooks than paperback. But with poetry, they’re still seeing completely different numbers for that, and that’s just because I feel like, again, it’s kind of the art. It’s like you’re holding the piece of art. It’s it’s a very different thing than reading just a fiction book that, you know, you’d find getting on the Kindle and you don’t need to hold on to it, and you just pass it off to someone else when you’re done. People really hold on to poetry books.

Nancy Norbeck [00:19:37]:
That makes sense to me because I’m I’m thinking of, you know, a couple of poetry books that I have on my Kindle, and I find that I don’t take my time with them as much on the Kindle. Like, there’s sent this sense of sort of racing through them. And and it’s weird because I don’t intend to race through them. It’s it’s like there’s something about that interface that makes you feel like, oh, okay. Finish that one. Onto the next one. And it’s like, is that really how you wanna read a poem? Right. Like, I think a poem you should spend a little more time with, and I think that paper encourages you to do that more.

Nancy Norbeck [00:20:13]:
You can just pick up the book, open it, you know, read the page or two pages or however, you know, maybe three or four, and just kind of take it in, sit with it for a minute, put the book down, and come back to it. And, yeah, you can do all of that with with an ebook, but it doesn’t it doesn’t feel the same.

Jennae Cecelia [00:20:36]:
No. It doesn’t. And I also think it’s nice to just put them on, like, a coffee table because people can just open it up and you read a poem and then you put it down. It’s not it’s not the same type of book as, like, you’re saying a fictional novel or something like that where it’s like if you see that sitting on your table, you might fan through it quick, but at least this is something where it’s like, if you have guests over, it’s like, oh, read a poem or two or pick something out. I don’t know. It’s kind of I like to do it where it’s like almost like a fortune cookie where it’s like close your eyes and turn to a page and see what poem you get for today kind of

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:05]:
a Yeah. Yeah. There are so many so many different options with poetry that you don’t have with fiction that way. And and that is often, you know, when I’m when I’m thinking about buying a book, one of the things that I think about, like, is this a book I wanna gonna wanna flip back and forth through? Because if it is, then an ebook is just gonna be annoying.

Jennae Cecelia [00:21:28]:
Yes.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:29]:
So, you know, which way do I wanna have it?

Jennae Cecelia [00:21:32]:
Yes. I agree.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:33]:
Yeah. And also, you know, I I love I love my Kindle. I have, like, an obnoxious number of Kindle books. It’s like, I don’t know, 2,000 more than 2,000. I don’t know anymore. But it’s great because they don’t take up space in my house because God knows where would I put them. But at the same time, it’s also like the memory hole. It’s where books go to be forgotten that I ever bought them.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:59]:
And then and then I scroll through the list months or even years later, I’m like, oh, I forgot I had that. That’s so funny. So so, yeah, it’s it’s a double edged sword to be sure. Yes. Yeah. So when when you found yourself with this book that just kind of kept selling and and then sort of automatically was selling other ones, how did that hit you? I mean, what what shifted for you as as a as a poet, as a person, as someone who was, you know, basically trying to make a career out of this? I mean, that must have been an interesting moment for you.

Jennae Cecelia [00:22:38]:
It was a very interesting moment. I was also just so young. I was 22 when I put out my first book, and I like I said earlier, I feel like it was just such a pivotal point in my life. When I saw the book starting to do as well as it was, I don’t wanna say I was shocked because I truly, like, wanted this and hoped for this, but I didn’t think it would happen in the time frame that it happened. It all was very quick. I mean, I started in April and by like I said, by December was selling a couple thousand books a month, and I know that is not the norm. And I tell people that all the time that that is not typical. I think what it did for me, though, was really allow me to realize this is something that you can go after and not have to actually put on don’t you don’t have to put it on the back burner.

Jennae Cecelia [00:23:34]:
You don’t have to worry about what’s next. I think at first, I was a little bit worried about numbers wise because, say, obviously, you still have to pay into taxes and all of these things that I had no clue about. But I was excited because for me, it wasn’t necessarily about making millions and millions of dollars or anything like that. I just wanted to get to a point where this could be my career, and it’s an equal amount of income to something that I would have done anyways, but at least I can do what I’m passionate about. And I can inspire other people, and I can talk about it. And that’s a lot of what I do now is, you know, helping other people do similar things. But it just really changed my whole life. I mean, honestly, I I truly I say this all the time to people.

Jennae Cecelia [00:24:22]:
I don’t know what I would be doing if that if, a, I didn’t publish the book or and, b, it it didn’t take off the way it did. I’m sure I’d be still writing in some capacity, but it’s it was a life changing moment for me. It’s it’s kind of like I view my life as the the before and after. It’s it’s just so crazy how different my my life was. And I also think when you’re doing all of this and you’re in your twenties, when your twenties are supposed to be a time to discover yourself and figure out who you are, it was hard, though, at times because a lot of my friends just were like, what are you doing? Can’t relate. I was really focused on my work, and they were like, let’s go out and do things. I’m like, no. I’m gonna, like, write poetry on a Friday.

Jennae Cecelia [00:25:08]:
I’m not I don’t wanna go out to the bars or whatever. I was like, I wanna stay home and work on my books, and they’re just like, okay. So it’s just a very interesting time in my life, but I am so grateful for it. I’m so grateful for everything that came from it because I obviously wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing now. But it’s just been a amazing journey, and I, like, am very thankful for that time.

Nancy Norbeck [00:25:32]:
Sure. I’m I’m sure that that it it provided a lot of fodder for what you write too

Jennae Cecelia [00:25:40]:
Mhmm.

Nancy Norbeck [00:25:41]:
Which I do wanna ask you about that because I’m realizing we’re talking all about the business side and haven’t actually talked about what how you write and what you write. And and I’m curious about that. I mean, especially when, you know, you do have, a bunch of, you know, viral books going on that has to have some kind of an influence over over what and how you think about what you’re writing. But, you know, when when you started writing poetry, how did you approach it, and then how has that shifted over the last couple of years?

Jennae Cecelia [00:26:14]:
Yeah. When I first was writing poetry, I actually didn’t realize I was writing poetry. I just thought I was just writing down thoughts, and I don’t know. I didn’t realize really realize kind of the the rhythm to it and how it was very poetic. And I’ve always had an interest from a young age in songwriting. I’ve really liked I used to always, like, make up silly songs or write lyrics, and poetry is very similar to songwriting. And for me, it was probably in high school when I started to really write more and grew an interest for it and was like, okay. This is this is something.

Jennae Cecelia [00:26:46]:
And then when I was in I think I was maybe, like, 19 or 20. So my very first year in college, I started taking it more seriously. I was following a couple poets on Instagram, and my poetry was a lot more simple then. I went through a phase of writing, like, very simple poems because I was worried about being too specific that people wouldn’t relate. And so I was trying to write a lot of very, I I feel like now I would call it, like, bland poetry, but that’s just because I feel like I was trying to, fit everybody’s taste where it’s like, oh, hopefully, everybody likes this versus coming from a perspective of this will find who it needs to find and, like, who doesn’t need who the people who don’t need it just don’t need it, and that’s fine. And then for a while, I went through a phase where I was writing a lot, which was my second book that took off was a lot of inspirational poetry. So it was all, like, very positive, very hopeful words. And I I still love doing that, but I think now I have a much better balance of the hopeful, but also still relatable where it’s like, hey.

Jennae Cecelia [00:27:56]:
Like, sometimes people are going through really hard things, and we can still talk about that too. And that’s okay, and there doesn’t have to be this happy ending to every poem. And now within the last year or two, I’ve gotten really, really into writing very detailed poems. So it’s the very opposite of where I started from. So I love, love just incorporating as much detail as I can. There’s some poems where I get very specific about things, and I’m like, oh, nobody’s probably gonna relate to this, and then it’ll be one that people are like, woah. That’s exactly what I relate to. And one of the poems I can put, like, top of mind that I wrote that I thought, this isn’t gonna be that relatable because I’m adding a little bit more detail that people probably you know, that hasn’t happened to them, or I think it hasn’t happened to them.

Jennae Cecelia [00:28:43]:
But it was a poem about, having either anxiety or depression, however you wanna interpret it, but there was a line in it that I said, you know, I’ve seen the shampoo bottle in the the empty shampoo bottle in the shower every day, but I still don’t throw it away. And I keep, like, not throwing this shampoo bottle away, and then I see the dishes with, like, the stuff still on them, but I’m not putting them away. And I was getting, like, detailed where it’s kinda like it’s showing that this person in the poem is going through a very hard time where these things seem so simple. It’s like, well, why wouldn’t you just throw the shampoo bottle away, or why don’t you just put the dish in the dishwasher? And to someone that’s not experiencing something like that, they would be like, that’s so obvious. But if you’re in it, you know that that stuff is not as simple as it sounds. And so I wrote that poem, and I remember I put it out and people were like, this is the most relatable thing I ever read. And I think that poem is really what sparked me to keep writing stuff like that, where it’s like, okay. Yes.

Jennae Cecelia [00:29:46]:
I’m getting specific, but at least people the people who are finding it and need it really are relating to it, and it’s there’s a lot of power behind it. And so that’s kind of where I’ve grown to now at this point is trying to write more stuff like that that really paints a picture and brings out emotion.

Nancy Norbeck [00:30:07]:
And that’s interesting to me because that’s what I’ve always heard is that, you know, the more you try to appeal to everyone, the less you actually do. And the more specific you get, even though you think that you’re probably gonna alienate lots of people, the more you actually draw people in Mhmm. Which sounds so counterintuitive, and I still sometimes have trouble wrapping my head around it because it feels so counterintuitive. But but, yeah, I think I think when you get into those nitty gritty details, even if somebody hasn’t experienced it themselves, like, you can see those those little moments out of somebody’s life and go, oh, you know, I haven’t done that thing, but it reminds me of this other thing that I have done or seen in somebody else or, you know, there’s some piece of it that rings a bell with somebody, and that’s that’s where it clicks.

Jennae Cecelia [00:31:01]:
Mhmm. A %.

Nancy Norbeck [00:31:03]:
Yeah. That’s that’s interesting, though. That’s interesting how you know, you start out with that that attempt to be all things to all people.

Jennae Cecelia [00:31:15]:
Mhmm. I think now having the ability to a a lot of it, I think, was also when you build up a following, you have readers, you start to get a little bit more confident where it’s like, okay. I have people here that are already ready to listen. So I think it was harder in the beginning because I’m like, oh, nobody’s here and nobody’s listening. So how can I bring the most people I can in to read my work? And so I think that is why in the beginning, I felt that way of having to appeal to everyone and not have, you know, people that are like, oh, I don’t like that or that’s I’m not gonna read her book because I wouldn’t that poem doesn’t resonate with me. But now I’m like, you know what? Like, it’s finding the people it needs. And, honestly, that’s all I could ever want.

Nancy Norbeck [00:32:02]:
Right. Right. And not not every poem is for everybody either.

Jennae Cecelia [00:32:07]:
Mhmm.

Nancy Norbeck [00:32:07]:
You know? You can hand somebody a book of poetry and, you know, it could be that the first five poems are not for them, but the sixth one, holy

Jennae Cecelia [00:32:17]:
cow. Mhmm.

Nancy Norbeck [00:32:18]:
You know? And that’s as true of of a collection with multiple poets as it is of a collection all by the same person. It’s it’s so individual, you know, everybody. And it I mean, I’m thinking you could have the same kind of argument about, you know, a Beatles album. Mhmm. You know? Boy, you know, I love Rubber Soul, but that fifth song and I don’t know what the fifth song on Rubber Soul is off the top of my head, so I’m not I’m not picking on it. It’s just the first album that popped into my head. But but, you know, you can have five different Beatles fans sit down and argue about that album, or I’m a Doctor Who fan. Right? Lord knows the arguments you can have about a single episode of Doctor Who.

Nancy Norbeck [00:33:02]:
And in fact, there was a cartoon that I saw. Oh, what was it? It was something like, you know, episodes everyone agrees on. There was, like, a big zero underneath it. Like, yeah.

Jennae Cecelia [00:33:15]:
I

Nancy Norbeck [00:33:16]:
know. Because you’re never gonna find a single episode that everyone loves, and you’re never gonna find a single episode that everyone hates even within one fandom. It’s never gonna happen. So so yeah. You know? There’s there’s something for everyone within a collection, and there’s, you know, something for everyone within a fandom, and that’s okay.

Jennae Cecelia [00:33:41]:
Mhmm. %. I I totally agree.

Nancy Norbeck [00:33:44]:
Yeah. So when you work with with younger poets and and authors, what do you tend to find, and what do you what advice do you tend to give them?

Jennae Cecelia [00:34:00]:
Yeah. A lot of the, poets that come to me are typically there’s two. There’s either the ones that are about to release a book, and so they’re really, like, excited and happy and upbeat. And then there’s the authors who have released a book, and they’re like, please help me. Nothing is happening from this book. And I’ve been in both positions, so I totally understand. And, typically, with the latter with the the the poets that are worried about how their book is doing, the problem is is that they’re usually not giving their book enough time at all. Like, they it’s week one, the book’s released, and they’re ready to take it off Amazon because nobody has purchased it.

Jennae Cecelia [00:34:43]:
I’m like, you gotta really take your time. You need to, you know, find your people and and use this book in a way that, like I said earlier, builds up your credibility. I think a lot of them just don’t look at it like that. People are either coming in with they need the sales because they they do need the money, which I totally get, and that’s a hard place to be coming from where that’s how you’re going into it because then you will have a lot of letdown in the sense of that’s just not how it goes. This isn’t like the quick money game. This is you gotta be in it for the long haul. And and when I say that but then people are like, oh, well, you know, after a few months, your books were selling. But it’s like, yeah.

Jennae Cecelia [00:35:21]:
But the authors that I talk to let’s even say because my book came out in April. By December, I was doing pretty well with sales. These people are, you know, putting out a book in April, and by May 1 are, you know, like, where are my sales? Why am I not selling? Like, it they’re not giving it enough time at all. And for me, that could mean, you know, months or that could even mean a year. But what I also tell people is just keep writing and putting out the work and putting out more books because, like I said, with what happened to me, you never know when you’re gonna have one take off. And then, look, you have other stuff already built up for people to then go and purchase and be excited about because you already have stuff out there. And I think you can talk to so many authors, and I the majority of them would say their first book wasn’t the most successful book, and it was maybe book two or five or seven. But then what happened is because they got very popular as an author, people naturally are going back and getting those books.

Jennae Cecelia [00:36:17]:
And I think when I’m talking to these authors and they tell me they wanna stop or they wanna give up and I’m like, you you it sounds silly right now because you’re frustrated, but if you keep writing and putting out the work, you’re going to see the results you’re hoping for because you’re growing as a writer and you’re only getting better. So your work is getting better along with it rather than you just stopping and not writing and taking years off. It’s like you’re not you’re not growing that skill. You’re that muscle isn’t continuing to grow. You’re not getting better. Even for me, it’s like I like I was saying earlier, my poetry has gotten immensely better. I can’t even go back and read what was in some of my first I’m like, what even is this? I know. But that’s okay.

Jennae Cecelia [00:36:59]:
But that’s okay because it was for that time period, and that’s a representation of who I was at 22. It’s not a representation of who I am now at 30, but that’s okay. I think there’s just a lot of fear going on for these authors. There’s a lot of, uncertainty and questioning, and I get that a %. So, usually, what we do is kinda just go through every person’s situation, obviously, too is very unique and different, and no one’s ever coming to me with the exact same problem. But the overarching theme for them is just frustration with visibility and how do I get going from here. And some of the stuff is simple fixes. Like, sometimes I’m like, hey.

Jennae Cecelia [00:37:34]:
I think we just need to redo your cover. Like, I think your cover is making people not super interested because it’s not super appealing. So it could be even a a simple fix that you’re ready to give up your career or hobby for because it’s not doing well. And maybe it just needs one small thing adjusted, and it could be doing really well.

Nancy Norbeck [00:37:53]:
But yeah. Isn’t it wild how, you know, there’s a whole saying about how you should never judge a book by its cover, but people do.

Jennae Cecelia [00:38:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, it’s not true. Especially in this day and age of, like, everybody likes an aesthetically pleasing looking Mhmm. Thing. I tell authors that all the time because I I also do book cover design. And so I’m like, they say the cover doesn’t matter, but that is an old saying. And, like, that is more they’re talking about, like, people.

Jennae Cecelia [00:38:26]:
Like, don’t judge this person by how they look. Yeah. Need to know their soul. But, like, the actual book, like, I wouldn’t I my husband, all the time, he reads, like, all these different business books, and they have the worst covers I’ve read. Like, I swear these books could be selling way more if we just fix the cover up a little bit. But, yes, the covers definitely do matter.

Nancy Norbeck [00:38:47]:
And and if you spend any time looking, you know, like, I usually I I don’t know because I’m a glutton for punishment maybe, go through the Kindle daily deals every day. And and you can tell most most of them are pretty decent, but you can tell every once in a while that one pops up that was self published and they just went through the KDP templates and picked one and put their title in there and that was really all they did or that it’s a Canva template or whatever. Mhmm. And you’re just like, man, it doesn’t really matter what’s in what’s underneath that because it just looks so generic, and it’s not it’s not doing you any favors. And it’s a shame.

Jennae Cecelia [00:39:27]:
Yeah. And then you also run into the issue where I’ve had this with a couple authors where they’re using the same clip art from Canva, and everybody else is using that clip art. And then all of a sudden, you have a cover that looks like someone else’s cover out there. You just don’t want that situation.

Nancy Norbeck [00:39:42]:
No. No. It’s it’s worth finding somebody to to do a decent book cover design for you.

Jennae Cecelia [00:39:48]:
Mhmm. I I agree.

Nancy Norbeck [00:39:50]:
Yeah. Because because people are going to judge your book cover whether you you wanna believe it or not.

Jennae Cecelia [00:39:56]:
Honestly, for some people, that’s the reason they buy books. Like, they’re like, oh, this is a pretty looking book. I like this. Again, going back to the coffee table thing I said, it’s like, if anything, I can set it out on my coffee table and it looks nice or put it on a shelf and it looks really nice. Like, this is a cute book. And, I mean, it’s just it’s marketing one zero one. It’s like with anything. It’s just if it looks nice, people are more tempted to buy it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:40:18]:
Yeah. I have conversations with myself when I look at them sometimes and I’m going, okay. Do I actually want this book or do I just like the cover? Because, seriously, if I’m never gonna actually read the book, why am I spending money for a cover? Yeah. Because it does it does make a difference.

Jennae Cecelia [00:40:35]:
It does. And what I find hard right now is I’m not a big fan of the fictional novels, and there’s a huge trend that’s going on with those type of covers that have, like, the I don’t even know what to call it, but, like, animated like, say the story is about a guy and a girl that fall in love, but the cover is, like, two animated characters on it. So it’s like it’s not real people anymore. I don’t know why I’m not a big fan of the the do you know what I’m talking about? I don’t know.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:03]:
What you’re talking about. It’s like it’s like a a weird like, it’s not exactly animated, but it it is Right. It sort of is. And it’s like the romance cozy mystery kind of thing. They’re all over everything. I know exactly what you’re talking about. Yeah.

Jennae Cecelia [00:41:20]:
And it’s not bad. Like, the covers are beautiful, but for some reason in my head, it’s I I’m, like, imagining the characters as, like, cartoon then instead of, like, actual people because the cover’s throwing me off.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:31]:
There are too many of them.

Jennae Cecelia [00:41:33]:
Yes.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:34]:
There were way too many of them. And they it looks like they were all churned out by the same person, you know, slightly different, but more or less cookie cutter, and there were way too many of them.

Jennae Cecelia [00:41:47]:
It’s very true because I went to Half Price Books and got a couple books, and I thought I was getting a book by the same author. And I brought them home, and I realized they weren’t. But the way their font for their name was, the font, everything was so similar. I was like, oh, I thought this was that author.

Nancy Norbeck [00:42:03]:
Yeah. And I’m Was it? I’m also noticing, like, there’s this weird You trend that has, like, birds on the cover.

Jennae Cecelia [00:42:12]:
Oh.

Nancy Norbeck [00:42:12]:
And and one of them, like, there was the I I can’t remember the author’s name, but I think the book was called Six of Crows, and there was, like, a whole series with that. And I saw one just, like, maybe last week, and I thought that it was the same series, but it wasn’t. And I was like, oh my god. There’s more birds on the book covers. Okay. So so, yeah, there are weird book cover trends.

Jennae Cecelia [00:42:33]:
I think what happens is is, like, there’s one author of those genres who’s doing extremely well and the

Nancy Norbeck [00:42:38]:
whole Yeah.

Jennae Cecelia [00:42:38]:
Happens. It’s like, let’s make it look kinda like that because, like, she’s doing well. I’m like, no. No. No. No. No. Like, you wanna stand out.

Jennae Cecelia [00:42:44]:
You want your book to be Right. People to know, like, this like a logo. Like, you don’t want a logo that looks like everybody else’s logo because that’s not gonna stand out. Like, people know the McDonald’s logo versus the Burger King versus you don’t wanna have all the same stuff because then it it is confusing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:43:00]:
Yeah. You wanna know you’re going to Taco Bell and not Burger King.

Jennae Cecelia [00:43:04]:
Yes. Big difference.

Nancy Norbeck [00:43:06]:
But I don’t know what it is with those those weird cartoonish ones, but I’m whoever’s doing them, I’m tired of looking at them.

Jennae Cecelia [00:43:13]:
I I agree. I hope that trend kind of moves on.

Nancy Norbeck [00:43:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. They they need to they need to go away. If you’re thinking about doing a book cover, please pick something else. I feel really bad saying that, but there are just too many. And you wanna stand out. Yes. Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:43:32]:
Yeah. Whoever sold that template, I hope they made a lot of money because their stuff is everywhere. But

Jennae Cecelia [00:43:36]:
Oh, I’m sure they have.

Nancy Norbeck [00:43:38]:
But it’s time to move on. Yes. But you have a really good point that I think we don’t make often enough about giving things time to germinate and grow. And and I you know, while while you were talking before we got onto the book cover thing, I was thinking about that. You know, like, there there was a course that I took a couple years ago where they were talking about that. You know? Like, if you plant a seed and, you know, you you put it under the soil and you pour the water on it and and all of that, and then you come back the next day and you get upset because there isn’t a seedling there yet Mhmm. And you just stop watering it or you dig it up or or whatever, you won’t ever get a plant because it doesn’t grow that fast and your expectations are all wrong. You have to give it time to actually germinate and start to grow, and then the little seedling will pop out from under the ground.

Nancy Norbeck [00:44:36]:
But nobody who plants a garden, except maybe small children who haven’t figured this out yet, expects to see something the next day, you know, and maybe not even within a week, you know, depending on what it is you’re growing. Like, you have to put it under there and and water it and maybe fertilize it and give it the time that it takes for it to do its thing and have the faith that even though you can’t see what’s going on under the ground, that it’s still happening. And I think that’s really hard. And I think, you know, it’s we’re recording this in 2024. It’s gonna go out in 2025. But, you know, either way, you know, we have such an instant gratification culture going on that I think we’ve forgotten that things still do take time under the surface where we can’t see them, and we still have to have faith that there are things happening even when we can’t actually see

Jennae Cecelia [00:45:32]:
it. Mhmm.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:33]:
And and we’ve gotta let them happen.

Jennae Cecelia [00:45:36]:
Yeah. That’s very good advice. Because I also have, going back to the authors that that are excited about releasing a book but haven’t yet, the the biggest issue I see for them is they never wanna they’re they’re they’re over perfecting the work to the point where they want it to be so perfect that it’s never getting put out there. I’ve had a couple calls with the authors where they’re like, I’ve been working on this book for five years. I’m like, let’s just get it out there, girl. Like, we need to just see how it even is doing. We need to get it to they’re they’re at the point where they’ve just kept digging in the soil, but they they’re like, this isn’t the right place to put the seed, and then they’re digging in a different spot. And I’m like, we need to just put the seed in the ground so something can can start growing because they’re very hesitant.

Jennae Cecelia [00:46:21]:
So I’m I’m also working with a lot of authors, and I talk to a lot of authors that they’re in that perspective too where they’re overly perfecting what they are wanting to put out there because they have such high expectations for it and they want it to do well. And they’re gonna be the people in the group where then if it doesn’t do well, it’s like, the world is going to be over. And that’s why I try to tell them, let’s get stuff out there so that it doesn’t feel that way, and we can just keep moving forward and and writing more and putting out more and just getting into the feel of how to even do that. So, yeah, going back to your garden analogy, I think there’s, yeah, the two people, the ones that are planting it right pretty well and then not letting it grow, and then the people who just, you know, aren’t planting it at all and are taking far too long. It’s winter now, and now they can’t plant.

Nancy Norbeck [00:47:08]:
Right. Right. And, also, when you say they’re over perfecting it, there is a point where you can take something that’s good and do too much to it and make it worse. Mhmm. And and that you don’t want you don’t wanna make it worse. You know? It’s like that that saying, don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Yeah. You can I’ve been there.

Nancy Norbeck [00:47:30]:
Can go too far. Yes.

Jennae Cecelia [00:47:32]:
I’ve been there. It’s hard, especially when you’re you are rereading. And I just had this happening to me where I’m rereading my work so much that I’m like, is this good or is it bad or is it just because I’ve read it so much now that I’m like, this is so boring. But in my head, like, no. No. No. No. Because people that are reading this with fresh eyes who’ve never seen it, they will like it.

Jennae Cecelia [00:47:54]:
I have just overread it and heard it and overanalyzed it. So it I think it comes from that perspective too where it’s hard to just remove yourself and be like Yeah. I’m not gonna be the writer of this. I need to just be the reader, and is this good enough to move on and, you know, keep going from there versus sitting there critiquing everything.

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:14]:
Yeah. And that is when, if you possibly can, you need to stick it in a drawer for a couple of weeks or a little longer if you can and go work on something else. Yeah. So that when you come back to it, you can actually look at it from, you know, a a normal perspective and not your I’ve looked at this for too much perspective.

Jennae Cecelia [00:48:36]:
Yes. Yes. I completely agree.

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:38]:
It’s so helpful when you can do that because Mhmm. You know, you you forget and you do. You get way too much in your head about it and no good comes of that.

Jennae Cecelia [00:48:49]:
None at all.

Nancy Norbeck [00:48:50]:
None. None. So I also wanted to ask you because you write custom poetry, and I’m I’m so curious what that’s like. I mean, poetry has been commissioned for centuries, but I always think of it as such an intensely personal thing. So how how do you balance that?

Jennae Cecelia [00:49:12]:
Yeah. It’s been really fun. I actually started it last year. As far as, like, people paying for it, I had been doing it free for people over the years where it just randomly, I would say, hey. If you want a custom poem, I’ll pick, like, a couple people and send you one. And it got to a point where I was like, okay. I need to just offer this full time for people. So it’s like, if they ever want one, they can just come to my site, order it, and they know they’ll get one versus, like, hoping they get one.

Jennae Cecelia [00:49:40]:
And for me, what really inspired it was during 2020, I wrote a book called the Sunrise and So Will We. And that book was mostly not completely, but a lot of the poems in there were poems that I wrote for free for people during that time that just needed, like, some hopeful words. So that book was pretty much composed mostly of custom poetry for other people. And it wasn’t even necessarily what I do now because those ones were very short. It was just like a couple concise sentences. Now I do much longer pieces for people typically. But I get everything from, like, hey. Like, I need something for my friend’s birthday to last year, I got I had one person it started off with one person asking for a custom poem for a friend of they wanted to give their friend one about their dog because their dog had passed away and, like, a poem from the dog’s perspective thanking them for the life that they had.

Nancy Norbeck [00:50:33]:
Oh, wow.

Jennae Cecelia [00:50:34]:
And I posted that to my story saying, like, oh my gosh. I’m so touched. Because I have a dog. So, like, anytime someone says anything with a dog, I’m like, oh my gosh. Like, I love that. And so, like, so sad too. And, I posted it to my story saying, like, this is so touching and, like, I’m honored to write this. And I got so many orders from people after that wanting to have some poems about their dogs.

Jennae Cecelia [00:50:56]:
And so that kind of took off, and I’ve done I’ve helped people with their wedding vows. I’ve helped, write, like, parts of I’m not I was gonna say the wrong word. Eulogy? Is that what you read at a funeral? Mhmm. K. I was gonna say I was totally gonna say the wrong word for that. But part of that, like, someone wanted to read they were like we they didn’t want to describe their their grandfather and the life he lived. And a lot of people have these words. Like, they’ll they’ll they’ll message me, and I’ll say, please give me as much detail as you can.

Jennae Cecelia [00:51:28]:
And they have the words. They just don’t know how to put it into poem form. So what I’m doing is taking the details that they can give me and really turn it into something that’s personal for them. So a lot of people ask me, like, oh, I wanna see these poems, or can you share these poems? But one, the re the thing that makes them custom and you’re paying for it is I’m not just gonna go post it on social media for anybody to then you know, they’re reading or they can use this is custom for you. It’s your use only. And then also too, some of them are very deeply personal where it’s details that I’m like, I don’t know if these people would want this out there. And I’m sure I could ask, but for me, it’s just like I wanna keep this something where the people who are ordering it know that they’re unless they wanna share it on their own platform, what they’re ordering is completely custom to them and not going to show up in any sort of published work of mine or on my Instagram or anything like that. But it’s just been so fun because I do really, really enjoy writing from a different perspective.

Jennae Cecelia [00:52:25]:
I don’t always I I I like writing things that, don’t necessarily have to do with my life. I feel like my life is pretty stable right now, which is nice. But as an artist, artists love chaos

Nancy Norbeck [00:52:39]:
Mhmm.

Jennae Cecelia [00:52:39]:
Because I feel like it helps you write better. And so when my life is stable, I’m like, okay. I’m just I’m I’m helping write other people’s chaos. Like, they have chaos going on, and I can take that and turn it into a poem. So that is nice because, otherwise, I’m just tapping into more of a, like, fictional side of poetry where it’s storytelling versus using my own personal life experiences. I still try to, like, throw my own stuff in there, but like I said, it’s, it’s just fun to be able to write for other people and see their words come to life in a poem form.

Nancy Norbeck [00:53:13]:
Yeah. Some of that really feels like it’s kind of a a sacred trust, really, you know, when you’re writing about, you know, someone’s grandfather or their their pet dog, you know, that kind of thing. I mean, that’s really wow.

Jennae Cecelia [00:53:28]:
Yeah. I mean, I’ll have people because I put when you check out, it says, leave in as much details here as you can. I mean, I have people who write, like, paragraphs on paragraphs. I mean, I have the people that just write a few things, but there’s a lot of information that people have shared with me that is, like I said, very deeply personal. And I’m like, wow. I feel honored that you trust me not only to write this poem, but then to share all of these details with me about your life and the things you’re going through. And so it it it’s just so much fun to do, and I’m so grateful to be able to to do that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:54:02]:
Yeah. That that would I’m just imagining it what it would be like to receive something like that, and I think it would be I think I would be blown away, you know, to have somebody send me that and say, can you please turn this into something for me? Mhmm. Just just wow.

Jennae Cecelia [00:54:20]:
I know. I every single one, I’m like, I wish I could get to know all these people better.

Nancy Norbeck [00:54:26]:
And,

Jennae Cecelia [00:54:26]:
like, if, you know, it’s like you only get these glimmers, but it’s it’s fun too because during the holiday season, like, right now until the end of the year, it’s a it’s a busier time for the custom poles because people are gifting them. But what’s really cool is I started this last year, but already this year, I have people that have come back and are like, somebody ordered one for me last year, and I wanna order one for them. Like, I’ve already had quite a few people like that. So I was like, this is so fun. Like, it’s getting passed along where, you know, they’re like, oh, she gifted it to me, but she’s probably a fan of yours. So maybe she wants one even more than I did type of thing.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:01]:
Right. Oh, that’s so cool. That’s, like, the ultimate personal gift too.

Jennae Cecelia [00:55:07]:
It really is. It really is. And that’s what I was telling people. I’m like, this isn’t like a last minute because I’ll I’ll have people who messaged me on December and are like, are you still doing them? I’m like, this is supposed to be like an intentional gift. It’s not necessarily a last minute gift. And so if you need, like, a last minute gift, I’m not the the shop to come to. But I appreciate it. But, also, it’s like, this takes time.

Jennae Cecelia [00:55:32]:
Like, I can’t just Yeah. Whip it out in five minutes for you and be like, here you go.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:38]:
Right. Right. Yeah. You gotta you gotta give somebody some notice to put that kind of thing together. Yes. Wow. But that’s so cool.

Jennae Cecelia [00:55:48]:
Thank you.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:51]:
Even cooler than I would have guessed.

Jennae Cecelia [00:55:53]:
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:56]:
Wow. So the other thing that that I was curious about is that, you know, so much of what you’ve done is self published, but I did see on your Instagram that you have a book deal. And I’m wondering what made you decide to go that route with after so many self published books.

Jennae Cecelia [00:56:13]:
Yeah. So that’s, like, my big my big life change right now is I am traditionally publishing a brand new book, with Andrews McNeil. So they are actually talk about, like, coming full circle. They are the ones who published Milk and Honey, which is the book I said in the beginning that my self published book was being sold with. So it’s just kinda funny now, like, here we are with the same publisher all these years later. But it’s coming out in summer of twenty twenty five. And, ultimately, I I haven’t really even talked too much about the decision process on this, but what really happened was I’ve self published 13 books. I’ve established myself well with these books.

Jennae Cecelia [00:56:56]:
I have a career going for myself. But as far as next goals for me, I’ve always wanted to be able to be in all the bookstores. So with self publishing, you’re primarily online. And I’ve been able to get into random bookstores here and there, even a couple random Barnes and Noble. But as far as everywhere, it’s just not been a thing for me. So when people are buying my work, it’s typically only online. Whether that’s ebook or paperback, it’s mostly online. And for me, I was like, I want to if I’m gonna, like, keep going, I need to do something a little different.

Jennae Cecelia [00:57:29]:
I’ve I’ve I love self publishing, and I still % recommend it. I think I’ve learned so much because of it, and I still tell authors I would at least self publish one book before you even think about traditional publishing because then you can just learn and know what you want and voice your opinion because I was approached a year and a half in with a publishing company originally, and that timing just wouldn’t have been good for me to go with it because I just didn’t know what I know now. And now I felt like I was able to go in and, really just know what I’m asking for and understand the business side of it. And for me, it was getting so it was getting into the bookstores, and also I just have the dream of making the New York Times bestseller list, and you can’t make that as a self published author. Yeah. So I’m like a dream big type of person, and I would love to make it on that list. So if I want to accomplish that goal at some point in my life, then I have to traditionally publish at some point in my life. And I’m just yeah.

Jennae Cecelia [00:58:33]:
I’m very excited, though. I I I have never and I tell authors this, and I think I’ve voiced it pretty well over the years. I’ve never been against traditional publishing in the sense of, like, I think it’s bad or anything like that. That’s not why I’ve stayed away from it. I think it just wasn’t right for me at that time. And now it does feel like the right time, and it does feel like I could really benefit from having an even larger audience and be able to be in stores and not just strictly on online. And when I was approached what just sorry. Backing up just slightly.

Jennae Cecelia [00:59:11]:
But when I was approached earlier this year, I was approached by a literary agent. And so none of this was me seeking any of it out. It was more so coming to me. And because it was that was another thing was I wanted it to be more effortless. And if I was going to do it, I didn’t really wanna have to spend all this time where it’s like years and years of wondering if you’re going to, you know, get an offer or whatever. And so I had a a literary agent reach out, which I know, again, is not the norm. I’m putting that out there again. I understand that’s not typically how it goes.

Jennae Cecelia [00:59:40]:
But they just said, hey. We’ve seen your your work. We’ve seen what you’ve done. If you would ever consider traditional publishing, we would love to represent you. And, again, going back to, you know, why I put out so much work, it has helped me gain, or it has helped me gain traction where people are noticing, not just readers, but, like, other people, like publishers and literary agents. So when I tell authors too, it’s like, hey. Get that work out there because you don’t know who’s seeing it, and they might be interested in you, and they might be interested in taking you on if that’s the route you’re hoping to go. But, yeah, when they approached me, I just was like, hey.

Jennae Cecelia [01:00:17]:
I think I’m at a good point, and I am interested, and let’s just see where this goes. And I was able to get what I wanted and as far as, like, what I was asking for, and I felt like I was with the team that really understood what I was wanting and looking for and my vision overall. And that’s what they put at the forefront when they asked me about what I wanted out of traditional publishing, and it’s basically everything I just said to you with having a bigger audience being in Bookstores. So I’m just really excited. I can’t wait. I’m I don’t know. Feels like the next big step for me.

Nancy Norbeck [01:00:49]:
Yeah. It’s exciting, and it’s great that they came to you. That’s that’s not usual as you said, and that’s a really good sign. So especially since they seem to get you, which is also the really important thing.

Jennae Cecelia [01:01:02]:
Yeah. A %. Yeah. I’m very I’m very excited for that.

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:06]:
Well, it’ll be exciting to see what happens next.

Jennae Cecelia [01:01:09]:
Thank you. Yes. I’m I can’t wait. I’m itching for summer of next year. Oh, I got me there yet.

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:16]:
Yeah. I bet. It’s like when you’re a kid on a road trip.

Jennae Cecelia [01:01:19]:
It’s a lot different than self publishing in that sense because I can just, you know, write one, put out, and pick my time frame and be like, yeah, it’s gonna go out. But when you’re I don’t see peep I don’t think people realize you’re typically a year delayed. So it’s like the book I have coming out next year has already been written. It’s already has a cover. It already it’s all done. It just

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:39]:
takes Yeah.

Jennae Cecelia [01:01:40]:
Longer. So I’m like, just itching. Like, when are we gonna like, even just being able to announce it on Instagram was a little bit of relief for me because this whole year, I’ve known since pretty much, like, February something was going to happen, but I just didn’t know when. So I’m like, all year long, I’m like,

Nancy Norbeck [01:01:57]:
Yeah. That’s a big secret to have to keep.

Jennae Cecelia [01:01:59]:
Yeah. It is.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:01]:
Yeah. Well, I’ll be so curious to see where it takes you, and I I’m so excited. Really, really love this conversation. I really appreciate you coming and talking with me today.

Jennae Cecelia [01:02:12]:
Thank you. Yes. I had a lovely time too. It was so nice talking to you.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:16]:
That’s our show for this week. Thanks so much to Jennae Cecelia, and to you. I hope you’ll leave a review for this episode. There’s a link in your podcast app, and it is super easy and really makes a difference. If you enjoyed our conversation, please do share it with a friend. Thank you so much. If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now, join me at the the spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage. It’s free, and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners.

Nancy Norbeck [01:02:51]:
The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.