Meg Hamand has had a heart for storytelling since her first poem was published in an anthology in elementary school. Since then, she’s been published in multiple print and online publications, and her debut novel is the award-winning Diamonds in Auschwitz, which simultaneously tells two stories of love, survival, and hope during World War II.
Meg joins me to talk about the challenges of working with dark and difficult topics, such as taking care of yourself and navigating the line between too much and too little for your readers; plotting historical fiction, and how to do historical research.
She also gives us a sneak peek into her next book, which is currently in progress.
Episode breakdown:
00:00 – Intro
02:12 – Introducing Tony Stewart
03:02 – Creative Childhood Experiences
08:02 – Performing Shakespeare in the Park
11:34 – Understanding Client Needs
17:48 – Complex Problems Beyond Machine Solutions
19:15 – Joy of Reading Book Reviews
24:58 – Returning to Writing
26:39 – The Beginning of the Book
29:29 – Writing Addiction and Motivation
32:40 – Overview of the Book
34:00 – Writing in Present Tense
38:38 – Crafting a Thriller
41:31 – Structuring the Book
42:24 – Tony’s Memories and Reflections
45:51 – Creating Realistic Characters
48:27 – Exploring Grief
52:04 – Anticipatory Grief
56:58 – Individuality of Grief Experiences
Show Links: Meg Hamand
Meg’s website
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Transcript: Meg Hamand
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to follow your curiosity, ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host creativity coach, Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Before we get started today, I’m wondering, have you ever deliberately done something badly? Sounds crazy. Right? But hear me out. It is no exaggeration to say that giving yourself permission to do something badly can change your life and not in a bad way. I’m almost two weeks into an experiment, writing an intentionally bad poem every day for thirty days.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:43]:
I’m posting all the poems and my thoughts about them, the process, and whatever else I’m noticing on YouTube, and I’ve added a link to the playlist to the show notes. I’d love for you to join me in this unexpectedly empowering process that gives your inner critic a rest, which lets your creativity flow more freely. Folks have already been posting their own bad poems, many of which are actually not bad at all, in the comments, and you are welcome to join them. The experiment ends on November 22. Hope to see you there. Meg Hamand has had a heart for storytelling since her first poem was published in an anthology in elementary school. Since then, she’s been published in multiple print and online publications, and her debut novel is the award winning Diamonds in Auschwitz, which simultaneously tells two stories of love, survival, and hope during World War Two. Meg joins me to talk about the challenges of working with dark and difficult topics, such as taking care of yourself, and navigating the line between too much and too little for your readers, plotting historical fiction, and how to do historical research.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:49]:
She also gives us a sneak peek into her next book, which is currently in progress. Here’s my conversation with Meg Hamand. Meg, welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Meg Hamand [00:02:01]:
Thank you. Excited to be here.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:03]:
I ask everyone the same question. Were you a creative kid, or did you discover your creative side later on?
Meg Hamand [00:02:10]:
I was a creative kid. I honestly can’t remember when I decided I wanted to be a writer, but I do remember at age 10 starting my first air quote book. It was a memoir because I had my appendix taken out. So, obviously, it was a page turner. But that was when I really wanted to become a writer. In fifth grade, I had, like, a poem published, and then that was it. I just went from there. I always really thought that it would be more nonfiction.
Meg Hamand [00:02:38]:
I went to school for creative writing and journalism. So I was a big fan of still am. Truman Capote’s In Cold Blood, kind of that creative nonfiction genre that he had created. And Eric Larson does an amazing job with that type of book, but that’s a that’s a lot of research. So I’m gonna stick with historical fiction so I can do the research and really, you know, use these great real events, but also make it up as I go.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:11]:
That’s fair. That’s very fair.
Meg Hamand [00:03:13]:
A nice mix of both.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and I had to giggle when you mentioned your appendix story because Right. Somewhere lost to the mists of time was the the book that I wrote when my brother had the chicken pox about someone whose wife had the chicken pox and, you know, when I was in fourth grade. So somewhere, there was a little library for kids who wrote medical stories when they were in elementary school.
Meg Hamand [00:03:41]:
We’re probably of the generation with, like, the sick lit. Right? I read a lot of books of, like, terminal cancer patients for they were teenagers. I don’t know why. I think at one point, my mom was like, stop reading these.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. It is an an unusual unusual trend Yeah. For want of a better word. Yeah. In fact, I remember there was a little golden book that they gave me when I had my tonsils out when I was in kindergarten called No More Tonsils, I think, to get me ready for it. But all of the medical stuff in it was, like, from the fifties. So wasn’t really like that when I had Right.
Meg Hamand [00:04:20]:
I guess if you’re prepared for that, what happened had to have been easier.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:24]:
Well, all they really told me was that I would get to eat all the ice cream I wanted. They’ve you know, the going in and having people cut things out, it really didn’t enter into it a whole lot. So anyway anyway, so you decided that you were gonna write historical fiction.
Meg Hamand [00:04:42]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:42]:
Yeah.
Meg Hamand [00:04:42]:
It’s my favorite genre to read. I mean, I do read a little bit of everything, but I love, historical nonfiction and historical fiction a lot. So I think that’s where I read things and I find out about a a real event or a real person, and I just think I need I need more. I need to know more about it. So that’s where I’m finding a lot of my inspiration.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:07]:
That seems fair. Yeah. Absolutely. So when when did you actually officially decide this was a real thing you were gonna pursue?
Meg Hamand [00:05:16]:
Well, it’s probably been about four years ago that the idea for Diamonds and Auschwitz, my first book came to me. I was I mean, it hit me like a, like a bolt of lightning. I’m driving down the road, and I couldn’t get this image out of my head from a nonfiction book that I had read by Wendy Holden called Born Survivors. And it’s about, women who go into Auschwitz who are pregnant and it’s their story. And she just briefly mentions that one woman had held on to her engagement ring through the Nazi occupation in the Jewish ghetto. And as she’s, you know, coming into Auschwitz, she’s like, I’m just not letting these Nazis have this ring. They’re they’ve taken everything from me. They’re not getting this ring.
Meg Hamand [00:05:56]:
So she just drops it in the ground. And then, you know, the book continues. And that’s not, of course, the point of the book, but that I just couldn’t stop thinking about it. And I was like, oh, you know, it’d be so terrible for a prison guard picked it up and all was for not. Right? But then I started thinking, what if a prisoner had picked it up? And this beautiful diamond engagement ring, it’s not worth anything inside, you know, the gates of Auschwitz. You can’t trade it for its value. You can’t eat it. You it can’t get you out.
Meg Hamand [00:06:23]:
It’s not gonna keep you warm. But what would it do? Like, how could it change your life? How could it save you? You know, so the the ring is just the embodiment of hope and resilience and and fighting through the worst conditions in life. And so the story revolves on two sets of characters, the woman who finds the ring in the very beginning in the mud in Auschwitz. She’s already a prisoner, has already lost her family to the Nazis in World War Two. So it’s her finding this ring and really, you know, waking her up out of this fog, this daze of, I actually think I’m I’m dead. I’m just waiting to die. And realizing maybe there is still life out there and there’s still good things out there. And then the second storyline that mixes in is the man who bought the ring from the jewelry store, gave it to his fiancee, and what they went through, holding on to it through again, the Nazi occupation in Prague, the ghetto outside of Prague, and then finally when they go to Auschwitz.
Meg Hamand [00:07:21]:
So kind of a full circle. The characters’ stories are about two years apart, but they mix in. You gotta you gotta work for it. It’s pretty subtle, but there’s definitely some tie ins and some connections.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:33]:
Yeah. It’s interesting as as you read it because you are kind of putting the puzzle together. It’s it’s pretty obvious that there’s a connection there, but you’re working to go, wait, so how does this how does it all come together? Because it’s clearly going to. So it’s, it’s it’s it’s kind of an interesting added dimension. You’re you you have to work for it a little bit. You you don’t just get to read the book and go, oh, okay. I’m just gonna follow along with this like you usually do. So, yeah, it’s like because I kept thinking, okay.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:04]:
So so the the ring, obviously, from the beginning is a pretty clear link, but you’re still up until the end, you’re still kind of going. So how exactly Yeah. How exactly does it end up where it ends up? And it’s yeah. It’s it’s a cool it’s a cool thing the way that that it comes together because you are wandering all up until the very end.
Meg Hamand [00:08:28]:
Yeah. And I won’t say
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:29]:
it before.
Meg Hamand [00:08:29]:
Right? You got yeah. You got you have to work for it. That’s what I’ll say.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:34]:
Yeah. You really, really do. And yet, you know, it’s, there’s no other way to say it. It’s not it’s not cheery subject matter. So you have to work for it in that respect too. And and I really I really found myself wondering what it was like for you to spend that much time in that world. I mean, obviously, you have the luxury of leaving that world. Right.
Meg Hamand [00:09:03]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:03]:
But still
Meg Hamand [00:09:04]:
Yeah. The it was it they some scenes especially were very tough to write. I remember writing one scene and I am like, I’m crying and sobbing, right? Because you live you live with these characters. They live inside you. You know, when I’m in a quiet moment, I’m in I’m in the book. I’m putting myself in scenes that have yet to be written. So when I finally start writing some of the terrible things that happened because I mean, it’s the Holocaust. A lot of terrible things are gonna happen to these characters.
Meg Hamand [00:09:30]:
I’m crying. I remember texting my sister and I said, I just made myself sob. And she’s like, I think it’s time to walk away. And so that’s what I would do. I would literally walk away. I’d go for a walk. I’d go, you know, spend time with my family. I think my reading list was very purposeful during the time that I was writing this.
Meg Hamand [00:09:49]:
Sometimes I wanted to be immersed in other World War Two, books because it just helps you kind of continue to live that, atmosphere, that time frame, especially, you know, anything in history. So sometimes I would do that and sometimes I’d be like, I have had too much, World War Two. I cannot read anymore. So my go to often, I’m a big James Herriot fan, which is still the timeframe ish. But so happy and lighthearted. And each chapter reads like a little story with a, you know, warm and fuzzy conclusion. So I read a lot of James Herriot over those years.
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:27]:
That seems like such a good choice.
Meg Hamand [00:10:29]:
Always. James Herriot is always a good choice. Well, and if
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:32]:
you watch the TV show, whether the original or the the current one
Meg Hamand [00:10:36]:
The new one.
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:37]:
It’s it’s just like wrapping yourself in a fuzzy blanket.
Meg Hamand [00:10:40]:
It is. It’s comfort food.
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:43]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Both of them. Mhmm. Yeah. Because I I grew up with my mom watching the original one, and, you know, I was a little bit reluctant to watch the new one and then my friends convinced me that I probably like it. And now I’m just like, yes, please. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:58]:
Yeah.
Meg Hamand [00:10:58]:
And I grew up with my mom reading James Herriot to me. Mhmm. So and I just remember having, like, this nice overall sense of, like, I liked it, but I couldn’t have told you anything specific about the books. So I started reading them again again as an adult, and now they’re one of my it’s it’s been a rough couple of weeks. I need something to take the edge off. That would be one of my go tos.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:19]:
Well, they’re great because you can just dip in and out of them too.
Meg Hamand [00:11:22]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I actually have to pace myself so that because I I haven’t read the dog stories and the cat stories, and I’ve been holding on to it for, like, over a year because I’m like, but if I read it, then I don’t have anything left. Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:35]:
Right. That’s the bad thing about stuff like that. You run out. That’s not
Meg Hamand [00:11:40]:
I’m rationing myself on James Herriot. Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:43]:
So so yeah. But but still, you know, you’re you’re in a really you you picked a dark place to put yourself.
Meg Hamand [00:11:51]:
Yeah. And I think that there was a lot of research. I could not have written some of the atrocities that the Nazis had committed without having actually read the real accounts of it. I don’t I my imagination is not that dark. I was able to write it, because I could visualize it after being told. But, you know, some of the things actually, almost all of the cruelties that happened at the hands of the Nazis, I had documented cases that that had happened. And, you know, one of them is you you’re probably gonna know what it’s it’s very, very bad. And at one point, a sensitivity reader was like, I think maybe you should think about taking this out.
Meg Hamand [00:12:29]:
But I had read in multiple cases where the Nazis had done this thing. And I thought, no, we can’t take it out because if we water down, you know, the horrors that happened during the Holocaust, fifty or a hundred years from now, it’s not gonna seem like it was so bad. Amen. That doesn’t seem that bad. So as uncomfortable as as it is, and so many people have like, I’ve read different scenes, and I had to put your book down, and I had to walk away, and I had to give it a day or so. And I take that as a compliment. Right? Like, it was it’s powerful. It’s sticking with them.
Meg Hamand [00:13:02]:
It’s uncomfortable. Maybe you don’t wanna read it, but it’s it’s necessary.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:08]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And and I think, you know, right now, we’re being reminded how necessary things like that are. And in fact, I I found it particularly interesting because a good chunk of the book takes place at Terezin.
Meg Hamand [00:13:27]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:27]:
And I’ve been to Terezin.
Meg Hamand [00:13:29]:
Wow.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:30]:
And in fact, I realized while I was reading the book that I’ve only been to the small fortress, and I was very confused by I had to go and look it up and look on a map and see that, oh, right there. Okay. There’s so there was there was a town Mhmm. And not everyone was in the small fortress, which was where I was because I was like, there were no streets where I was. What is she talking?
Meg Hamand [00:13:52]:
Yeah. Yeah. It was like a fortress town originally meant to keep the Germans out. Right. Right? Exactly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:00]:
Yeah. And then there was the actual prison. Yeah. And, you know, which was not an extermination camp, but yet a heck of a lot of people still died there and went on to worse places. Yeah. But as I was reading it, I was reminded that, you know, my my grandparents took multiple trips to Europe, and I can’t remember where they were because I know they didn’t go to Poland. But they were somewhere, I presume, in Germany that was near one of the camps, and they had an opportunity to go. And I could not believe I must have been in high school when they when they made this trip and when they told me about it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:42]:
But they decided not to go because their tour guide told them that they shouldn’t go. It would just upset them and there there was no reason to go. And and I remember sitting there thinking, that’s kind of the point.
Meg Hamand [00:14:56]:
That’s why you go. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:57]:
That’s why you go. And, you know, I mean, it’s been twenty years since I was at Terezin, and I think it was I don’t remember now what year Life is Beautiful came out, but I think it was after I was at no. No. It was before I was at Terezin because I remember walking through there thinking this looks just like the movie. And, you know, just being like, oh my god. You know? Like, you see the movie.
Meg Hamand [00:15:27]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:27]:
So you’re not really surprised by what it looks like. And yet, when you’re standing there, it is still such a different experience when you’re in the space, and the tour guide is explaining to you that not only does it look like this, but here’s how it worked. And the horror of it is just real for you in a way that you had understood before, but you hadn’t understood before. And so when I think back on the fact that someone would actually and, you know, I mean, this is a story that I heard. I wasn’t there. So it’s entirely possible that they just didn’t wanna go, and they told me that? I don’t know. But but either way, they didn’t go. And they clearly didn’t wanna go because it was an easy sell for them if they were told Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:16:20]:
Not to take the tour. And I just I’ve always felt like as much as I loved my grandparents, I always felt like that was just like it’s your responsibility and your duty as a citizen of the world if you have an opportunity Mhmm. To go to a place like that, to go and see it and experience it so that it’s real for you and you can pass that on to other people who may not have the chance to go see it. And I don’t even like saying have the chance to go see it because it sounds like, you know, I have the chance to go to, you know Yeah. You know, Hollywood or Disney World or whatever, and it’s obviously not the same thing. But it just feels like a responsibility Mhmm. That that you should take that trip and you should go. And and there’s a moment there’s a moment in your book where the children are drawing and the child draws a butterfly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:16]:
And because I was at Terezin, I knew exactly I I was pretty sure, and I didn’t get confirmation until I read the acknowledgements at the end of the book. Yeah. But there is a a famous collection of artwork from Terezin called I Never Saw Another Butterfly. And as soon as I’ve read about the butterfly in the book,
Meg Hamand [00:17:33]:
I was like, oh, she’s read the book. Yeah. You know, I knew nothing about Terezin before I started, research for this. I chose Prague as my setting almost on a whim because I had done some research of like where are the geographical locations that filtered into Auschwitz and Prague was one of them and I thought well that’s kind of interesting. So we did a little basic research and for a book about art and beauty and you know the embodiment of hope and creativity, Prague is the perfect place
Nancy Norbeck [00:18:05]:
to
Meg Hamand [00:18:05]:
set, you know, a story like Diamonds in Ashwood. So we I got to dig into the architecture and just the rich history of Prague. And it had a really unique place in World War II history because it was fairly preserved for a city. Right? The Germans didn’t come in and bomb it. It was just handed to them. And they did a pretty good job of keeping it intact structurally wise. Right? So I so I decided, okay, we’re gonna do Prague. And then obviously, I quickly moved my research to Terrazine because that’s the the next possible location for my characters to go.
Meg Hamand [00:18:38]:
And I fell in love is not the right word, but the situation in Terezin again was just absolute serendipity for the book because it was filled with a lot of artists and musicians and college professors. And this is this is the true thing. This is not Meagan writing stuff. And that was really neat. And then I found out about the art class with the book and the collection of artwork. And then I found about the art teacher who is featured in my book in a 100% true real character who smuggled in bits of paper into Tarazien rather than food and clothing and, and blankets for herself, knowing that these children needed an outlet for all the horrific things that they were witnessing and experiencing. And so she taught that art class at one point from my research. It was under the, you know, permission of the Nazis, and then it was not.
Meg Hamand [00:19:30]:
And she still continued to teach it. And she did that until she was sent out of, Terezin. And so I just thought, like, that is this beautiful way to resist and to, you know, give something to the children. And, 15,000 children went through terezine and it said about a 100 of them survived. So clearly these children needed that extra outlet, that that extra scent, that that little bit of sense of security that they had while they were in the art class. So that was a really important part for me in the book. And, you know, it’s a small part, but also just knowing just wanting people to know that those children had lived and had done these great things, and the art teacher had lived and had done this great thing, and that’s how we can help keep them alive.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the foresight that she had to do that is amazing, especially because one of the things that your book makes clear is, you know, how how much people did not realize where they were really going and what was going to happen when they got there, and yet she clearly did.
Meg Hamand [00:20:45]:
I mean, how could you? How could you fathom Right. That that that people are trying to exterminate entire culture from earth and the others were letting it happen.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:58]:
Mhmm.
Meg Hamand [00:20:59]:
Right. It’s really unfathomable. And you’re right. So many of the characters are just like, they cannot believe it. The proof is being told to them. They’re seeing these things and they just keep thinking, well, you know, my my one character my set of characters, Samuel and Hannah, the ones who are engaged, keep saying they can’t kill all of us because, like, surely, they cannot kill all of us. Right? Right. They’re
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:20]:
trying. Right. Right. And and there there are is a a moment toward the beginning of the book where they’re having the conversation with some of their friends about, you know, we need to get out of here. No. You’re just being, you know, overly what’s the word I want?
Meg Hamand [00:21:40]:
Paranoid.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:41]:
Paranoid. Yeah. Excitable. Whatever. And and, you know, it turns out, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They all should’ve gotten out.
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:52]:
Yeah. Mhmm. You know? And and also, you know, there’s a, moment of major betrayal in the book that is a wake up call for some folks. And that kind of thing also it’s not a surprise because anyone who’s paid attention to history ever knows that that kind of thing happened, and in fact, that kind of thing was encouraged. And yet, it’s still it’s still a a really big moment, and you don’t want that to happen. And, again, reading it now, you know, that kind of thing has happened again throughout the history since World War Two. It’s happening in places around the world now. You never know where else it might happen, and and it it gives you real pause to read about that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:52]:
Because as much as we hear never again, things have happened again, not on as large a scale, but they have happened again.
Meg Hamand [00:23:05]:
I know. It’s heavy.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:06]:
It’s hard to talk about this without going to dark places.
Meg Hamand [00:23:10]:
Yeah. It’s a heavy book. It is. For sure. A lot of friends were taking it on spring break because it came out in, you know, right before spring break, and they’re like, may spring break read? And I, of course, am not deterring them because please buy the book, Diamonds in Auschwitz, but it’s not like a beach read. No. I mean, you could read it on the beach.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:29]:
I’m the kind of person who might read it on the beach. Absolutely. Just read
Meg Hamand [00:23:32]:
it wherever you want. But if you’re thinking that this is like a fun easy spring break, it’s not.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:37]:
It’s not that. It’s definitely not that. You wanna know that that’s not what you’re getting before you start reading it Right. For sure. Though, it’s it’s, I mean, it’s it’s worth reading, I think.
Meg Hamand [00:23:50]:
Thank you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:50]:
You know, the more we remind ourselves, the better off we are. Yeah. Though, you don’t wanna do it to the point where, you know, it’s bad for you, but still, how how did you keep yourself? And we we talked about taking breaks and things like that. But how how did you strike that balance? Because, you know, you mentioned trying to make sure that the things that you put in the book were things that happened, but still, that’s that’s tough reading.
Meg Hamand [00:24:22]:
Yeah. You know, the one thing after I finished it, I just kept thinking, it needs a little more levity, which was it’s it’s so hard to put it in there. Right? And then you don’t want it to come off as forced. So I will say one of the ways that I try to balance it is, you know, the little girl, Haya, who befriends Rachel in Auschwitz. And, it’s hard to think of how a little girl in Auschwitz could be, you know, kind of the lighthearted release that we need, but she’s really held on to her playfulness and her curiosity and her childlike innocence because she spent the majority of the war in a cellar by herself, which is sad, but she was kind of protected in a way. And so she kind of comes into Auschwitz as like a brand new life form, right? She hasn’t experienced anything. And, children are resilient and her just natural personality is friendly. And she’s breaking down all these walls that Rachel had built around herself, to keep her own heart intact and to stay, you know, distant from other people.
Meg Hamand [00:25:33]:
And I really liked, you know, one scene and I kinda added it and it was just really quick where Rachel refuses to speak to her bunkmate. She doesn’t wanna have anything to do with her. She doesn’t wanna get to connect to anybody else. And within like five minutes, Haya’s like, hey, I’m Haya. This is Rachel. What’s your name? And Rachel’s like, Ugh, I tried so hard to not exchange names. It got and, you know, Haya’s like, nope. We’re just gonna wipe all that clean.
Meg Hamand [00:25:56]:
And so hopefully just little bits like that. They’re not laugh out loud funny, but just as enough of a, you know, natural, you know, good hearted release, hopefully, to to balance out the darkness.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:08]:
Yeah. I think I think the fact that just the fact that she’s a child. Mhmm. You know, even even if she didn’t do anything else, just the fact that she’s a child and she doesn’t wanna stand still and she Yeah. Wants to run around and
Meg Hamand [00:26:20]:
games. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:22]:
Yeah. She she definitely feels more than a bit out of place in in that kind of environment. And, you know, definitely, there were moments when I’m like, how in the heck is she even there? You know? Yeah.
Meg Hamand [00:26:38]:
Yeah. And it was fun writing her kind of her chapters. It was a balancing act of like, trying to come off as like this innocent child but still not writing it like you’re reading the writing of a kindergartner and she’s a little older, but she had a very, you know, young mentality. So it was a challenge. So that was actually really interesting to to try and pull off.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:03]:
Sure. And and I actually found her really enlightening because as you said, you know, she’d never really experienced the outside world. There’s a moment when one of the characters mentions a bookshop to her, and she has no idea what it is. And that really brought home to me. You know? I’d I’d never really thought about the fact that there had to have been kids like that. Mhmm. You know, you hear all the stories of, you know, Kindertransport and kids hiding out and things like that, but the idea that it that there would have been a child that had never known what a bookshop was just put it in a whole different perspective for me.
Meg Hamand [00:27:41]:
Right. Yeah. So, you know, from from my timeline, she would have gone into the cellar in hiding around the age of six, and, you know, no memories from before that. So really all she knows is like living in the, you know, beneath the kitchen of this family. So depressing. Right? Like, I’m hearing this and I know it sounds terrible, but also it just really helped preserve this innocence as, you know, and then as a foil, Rachel’s daughter, Katerina, who sat there and watched everything. She watches everything fall apart. And so if you would put Haiya and Katerina together, you would have two opposite children even though they’ve lived through the same thing, they’re really the same age.
Meg Hamand [00:28:22]:
So that was kind of interesting to create like the exact opposite of Rachel’s daughter.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:27]:
Well, and it’s also an interesting illustration of the notion that we can experience very similar things and respond to them really differently. Mhmm. Yeah. So one just completely shuts down and the other one somehow manages to keep that playful spirit.
Meg Hamand [00:28:46]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:46]:
Which is amazing. It’s really amazing. And, you know, the other thing that that strikes me, because I’ve definitely seen conversations about, you know, what how much did the German people know? How much did they understand? How much did they really believe because of all of the propaganda? And certainly, you know, Terezin was used for plenty of propaganda and even managed to snow the Red Cross, but there are certainly arguments that the Red Cross kinda came in wanting to be snowed, so it wasn’t even that hard. But but there are are moments toward the end of the book, I’m trying to figure out how to talk about this without spoiling it for anybody, where it really kind of becomes clear that, you know, even even the most brainwashed folks in that camp absolutely knew Mhmm. And were trying to cover themselves. Mhmm. They completely knew. And maybe the people in town didn’t know or tried really hard to pretend that they didn’t know, and your book doesn’t go into that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:03]:
But certainly, you know, the folks in the camps knew. The folks who were running it knew. And they knew that if their side didn’t win, they were gonna be held to account for it, and they didn’t wanna be. Yeah. And so
Meg Hamand [00:30:23]:
the hedge their bets differently.
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:25]:
Yeah. And so the, you know, the conversations about what did what did people know, well, certainly, the people who were more involved, they knew. They knew. So I don’t think that, you know, splitting hairs over it I think if you tried really hard and you were, you know, townsfolk out in the middle of nowhere, not anywhere near where any of this stuff was happening, and you rarely ever saw a soldier, maybe you could argue that you didn’t know. But even then, probably a stretch. I think everybody knew there was a war going. Yeah. You know, you saw planes flying over the head at the very least.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:12]:
Yeah. But I I think, I mean, you you managed to cram an awful lot into this book. Yeah. You really did. It’s kind of amazing. Thank
Meg Hamand [00:31:27]:
you. Yeah. It was, it was a lot of it was a lot of research and just a lot of sitting there trying to play out these scenes in my head and and work it through and and then make sure that the ring is featured purposely in every chapter. It’s not the chapters aren’t about the ring, but making sure that it’s there because it’s the driving force of the narrative and kind of the connection between the the sets of characters.
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:54]:
So how much of this did you plot out ahead of time, and how much kind of came to you as you were writing? I don’t know if you’re a plotter, if you kind of are in between. I think when you’re doing the historical stuff, you kind of have a built in framework anyway. Right. But how does how does it work for you?
Meg Hamand [00:32:10]:
I’m a plotter. So I have a a full time job that is not writing books. So, having an outline really helps me stay focused and motivated, especially as, you you know, you have to really start and stop and just really work the writing in when you have a little bit of extra time. So I’m definitely an outliner. But as I was researching, more things were coming. I knew the basics. Right? I knew the two stories. I knew Auschwitz.
Meg Hamand [00:32:35]:
I knew Haya. I knew how Haya was gonna fit into it. I knew Samuel and Hannah were going to be in Prague and then eventually work their way into Auschwitz. Everything about Terrazine just came out of the research. So that was kind of like a beautiful added bonus that came to me was not in the original thought that I had. And, you know, some of the other things like when at the nearing the end of the war when they try to blow up the crematorium in Auschwitz, that was a really great opportunity to show that that piece of history, but also a way to get inside the the death barracks and the, the gas chambers. So I tried to take advantage of that. So some of those things came as I was researching, but I really had the idea start to finish, you know, like how it was gonna start how it was gonna finish from the beginning.
Meg Hamand [00:33:25]:
I will tell you the original ending that I wrote was not what’s in the book. What’s in the book is what I wanted. But I thought and this is what I told my developmental editor, Ava, who’s amazing. I said, I feel like if I write what I wanted to write, it’s gonna tie everything up in a bow too nicely. And she said, you can’t tie this up too nicely. Like, you’ve killed too many people. Too many lost souls. Like, you it’s not possible.
Meg Hamand [00:33:50]:
Give this to the readers. Give them this, again, air quote, happy ending. Right? Some somewhat fulfilling ending. So it was really great that she gave me the confidence to write the ending that I had wanted, but I hadn’t written originally.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:07]:
Wow. So I’m I’m really curious now what the other ending was.
Meg Hamand [00:34:12]:
We’ll have to stop recording. Yeah. We’ll have to stop recording, and then I’ll tell you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:17]:
When we’re done. Right. Well, I’m glad that you got to have your original ending then. Yeah. But but, yeah, it’s it’s it’s it’s a challenge sometimes not to because you’re right. You don’t wanna tie everything up too neatly.
Meg Hamand [00:34:35]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:35]:
And yet But then it loses credibility.
Meg Hamand [00:34:37]:
Right? Right. I read, Georgia Hunters We Were the Lucky Ones, and I loved it. And I didn’t realize how much based in truth it was. I don’t know if you’ve read it, you really should. And the Hulu mini version or the mini series about it is awesome. But, it’s, so it’s, we were the lucky ones and like everything works out eventually. It’s terrible, right? They’re going through these awful experiences, but there is a lot of survivors for this huge family. And I just kept sitting there going, this is not possible.
Meg Hamand [00:35:05]:
This is not possible. Like not everybody makes it. And then at the end, I read her author’s note, and it was, like, really based in fact. And then the value of that story was just overwhelming because it’s such a beautiful story and it really did happen. But sometimes I think that we can’t just always give our characters the happy endings that we want because that’s not realistic, especially when you’re living in a time period like World War Two. So that’s what I was worried I was gonna do. But
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:33]:
Yeah. And I think with World War Two, you have that that, that really fine line you have to walk because you can also so easily make it too grim. Yeah. Yeah. Because it’s World War II. I mean Yeah.
Meg Hamand [00:35:48]:
It’s it’s grim. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:50]:
Yeah. Oi. I don’t envy you the choices that you had to make to ride this one. I I really, really don’t. I mean and and yet there are there are parts of it, you know, I mean, because obviously if you’ve been to Terezin, odds are really good, you’ve been to Prague. And and Right. Prague is beautiful. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:14]:
You know, and and, you know, so I’m picturing Prague as I’m reading this book and and, you know, walking along the Charles Bridge and, you know, all all of that is wonderful. Yeah. So you got to you got to go there too. So at least you had something to to balance it out at least at the
Meg Hamand [00:36:35]:
beginning. Right. Yeah. I wanted Prague to almost be more than a setting, almost like a character because it’s just such a it it was so fun to to write such a beautiful city.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think some of the the people in it are are kind of like the character of the city too and how the city changes. Mhmm.
Meg Hamand [00:36:58]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:59]:
Yeah. Rather dramatically. But but, yeah, it’s, that that’s the thing, though. I mean, the city is still it’s still there. It’s still it’s still a beautiful city. So really, the people in many ways are what make it what it is. Yeah. So did anything other than the ending change as you were writing it?
Meg Hamand [00:37:23]:
Yeah. I added a character, kind of at the very end, and that was actually, Rachel’s bunkmate. She was non existent, but I really needed to get some of Rachel’s thoughts out of her head and into action. And so I needed another adult, that she could speak to. So that was, that was a big addition. And then just, you know, learning about so this is my first novel. Right? So learning about taking scenes, you know, stop telling people and really showing them. So added a couple more scenes of dialogue.
Meg Hamand [00:37:57]:
Samuel’s friends got to have a bigger role. Because, again, it was a way for me to show the changes of the city and and the people, by showing just, you know, very specific characters. I think those were those were the main, you know, big changes. I think for the most part, what printed was a lot of what I had originally written.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:18]:
That’s interesting. I think there’s there’s such a varying percentage for people from, you know, how strictly you manage to adhere to your outline and how how much other things pop up where other characters pop up or, you know, you think the character’s gonna turn right and they say, I think I’m gonna turn left today. Sorry.
Meg Hamand [00:38:37]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:38:40]:
You go, but but that’s not in the plan. Yeah. Yeah.
Meg Hamand [00:38:46]:
I like to go for, you know, walks. I live kind of on a small fishing lake, so walk around the lake or kind of near the fields. And just it’s it’s one of the few times where I don’t have music playing or audiobooks playing or, you know, family members talking to me and needing stuff. And that’s when scenes would just come to me and a lot of times out of order, and I would just go right back and I would write it. And then most of the time, I would try and fit it in. Sometimes it just got written and then weren’t used because it just it didn’t work with what I had originally planned. But I think those are probably the most powerful scenes that I have are the ones that I’m walking and I’m just, you know, putting myself in the mindset of these characters and think, oh, this this has to happen. This is this is a conversation that they’re gonna have, or this is a thought that they’re gonna have.
Meg Hamand [00:39:36]:
And so I I I really value that as a as a time to find, you know, my creative inspiration. Just I need I need to probably sit quietly more often, but I’m not good at that. So I have to go for a walk.
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:48]:
Well, you know, walking has been, you know, hailed as a a creative tool for centuries. Mhmm. So I’m not all surprised to hear you say that that’s where things were coming to you at all.
Meg Hamand [00:40:01]:
Yeah. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:02]:
And I love those moments when characters start to talk to you. Mhmm. Because that’s when they always start to feel real to me and I’m like, oh, things just got much more interesting and you’re gonna start telling me what I need to know now.
Meg Hamand [00:40:13]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:15]:
Yeah. I would I would be having a hard time continuing with my walk if they started talking too much. So the fact that you managed to last until you got home is impressive.
Meg Hamand [00:40:24]:
Sometimes I feel like I’m running home or I try to, like, I’m not really good at the voice to talk, you know, like the talk memos on your phone. And I always think that, okay, we’ll just talk it out. And the second my phone starts to record, my mind goes blank. I absolutely need the keyboard or the pen and paper, which is weird because it’s in my mind. It should come out of my mouth just as easily, but it doesn’t. It only comes out of my fingers.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:47]:
I think there is something about that because I do not take to dictation well either. And and they’re you know, the keyboard for sure, pen and paper, not quite as much. And I have I have one friend who I realized knew me really well just on a work project when I was trying to figure out how to reword something out loud, and it wasn’t working. And he just very quietly handed me a pencil and a piece of paper.
Meg Hamand [00:41:14]:
Oh, that’s perfect.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:16]:
You that’s I’m impressed. You figured it out, and you are right. And as soon as I had the pencil and the piece of paper, I had it in, like, twenty seconds.
Meg Hamand [00:41:25]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:26]:
Yeah. So there’s I think we process differently on paper than we do out loud. And out loud is great for some things, but it’s not great for everything. And I’m not you know, there are plenty of people dictate their stuff, but I’m not one of them when it comes to characters. For some reason, I think I think, actually, now that I’m saying this, I think hearing the sound of my own voice blocks the sound of my characters’ voices.
Meg Hamand [00:41:51]:
I think that might
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:52]:
be what it is. Yeah. Right? Because I can hear their distinct voices in my head.
Meg Hamand [00:41:57]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:57]:
But if I’m hearing my own voice, I don’t hear them as well. I bet you that’s what it is.
Meg Hamand [00:42:02]:
We just had a breakthrough. I think we might Amazing things are happening on this podcast today.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:09]:
I think that might be it. Yeah. Yeah. We need to be able to hear them.
Meg Hamand [00:42:15]:
Yeah. I totally agree. That is well said. I’ve not thought of it that way, but you’re right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:19]:
I had never thought of that way before either. So there we go. So so if you’re listening and you’ve always wondered, maybe that’s what it is for you too.
Meg Hamand [00:42:28]:
We’re just solving the world’s problems right here. That’s it. That’s it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:35]:
So since this was your first novel, where do you think you’re gonna go from here? Do you think you have enough research on World War Two that you’re gonna stick with it, or do you wanna move on to something else?
Meg Hamand [00:42:46]:
So I, just sent my second manuscript to my lovely developmental editor that I worked with in Diamonds for, you know, with Diamonds in Auschwitz. So not World War Two. I have to stop myself from only writing World War Two. I think I could very easily pigeonhole myself there, and I really for partly for readers. Right? They don’t just wanna read the same time period. Even I get sick of World War Two eventually, sometimes, and then I come back to it. But also just for me, like, I want to learn and write, and I wanna do different things. So my second manuscript takes place in Charleston after the revolutionary war.
Meg Hamand [00:43:22]:
It’s kind of like a haunted legend origin story. There’s so many fascinating, ghost legends in Charleston. So I took one and kind of doing, like, how it became this ghost legend, and I overlay it with, a Shakespeare tragedy. And then kind of sprinkled in a couple of other haunted legends, just for fun to kinda make it. So it’s a little it’s it’s not really it wouldn’t call it a ghost story. I wouldn’t call it a murder mystery, but it has all of those little bit of elements to it still very much historical fiction. But I will, I will go back to world war Two met over and over and over because I just feel like there’s so many stories that still need to be told. So you know, that I have in my head, like, what the next three, four, five, six books could be.
Meg Hamand [00:44:14]:
And I would say I have to like, okay, every other can be world war two, Megan. The heavy other, you can’t write any more than that because people will get sick of it. But, yeah, I I would like to go back to some of the characters in Diamonds and Auschwitz someday and do kind of a spin off of the ones where you’re like, but what happened? What happened to them? We never really got conclusions for those characters. So I have a whole idea of kind of a spin off, and then we would still see some of the characters that we loved in Diamonds and Auschwitz and have, like, a minor role, or we get a glimpse of them and maybe in a in a situation that we hadn’t gotten to see before.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:51]:
So That sounds cool. And and I have to ask, so because you mentioned Shakespeare. Can can you tell us which Shakespeare play are you allowed?
Meg Hamand [00:45:02]:
Probably. Yeah. It’s okay. I’m I’m gonna tell you because I think most people will forget by the time they read it because it does kinda tell you maybe who I think the killer is. It’s Othello. Oh, okay. Wow.
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:13]:
Mhmm.
Meg Hamand [00:45:15]:
Yeah. I thought it was, like, over the top, like, really hitting people on the head. And then my number one reader, my favorite reader, read it, and I said something about Othello. And she’s like, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m like, awesome. Okay. So it’s subtle. But, you know, she’s not a Shakespeare you know, didn’t study Shakespeare.
Meg Hamand [00:45:33]:
So my my college professor will probably be like, could you have made it any more obvious? But if you didn’t take Shakespeare Tuesday through Thursdays at 8AM at Indiana State University, you might not get it right away.
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:46]:
Right. Right. I mean, I’m I’m a Shakespeare nerd too, so I’m totally Yeah. So you will get it. Totally intrigued now, and you’re gonna have to come back and we’ll have to talk about this
Meg Hamand [00:45:54]:
book too. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:45:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. What made you think to I I’m getting ahead of myself. We haven’t even you know, you haven’t even released the book, but I am curious. What made you think to throw Shakespeare into post revolutionary Charleston?
Meg Hamand [00:46:08]:
I had the idea since the time we did a haunted tour of, Charleston that I wanted to write this story, this young woman’s story. And it just and I knew I wanted to add other haunted legends, and I molded over for two years, and it just was not coming together. I couldn’t figure out how to switch my point of view. I couldn’t figure out the motivation for the character that I think does the murdering, which is based off of the legend that I was told during the tour. And I just I just it wasn’t coming together. Like, it doesn’t make sense to me. And then I read, William Kent Kruger’s, this tender land, which is a retelling of the Odyssey. And I am I am an English major, and I was probably two thirds of the way through the book before I was like, oh my gosh, this is the Odyssey.
Meg Hamand [00:46:56]:
And I was like, what an idiot, what an idiot. I think it says that on the back of the book, but I wasn’t paying attention. And I loved that. And then I started to think about like classics and you can’t get past, you know, Shakespeare is the end all be all of human motivation. Right? Like, he wrote it first. He wrote it best. And so when I started to think about it, I’m like, what would be the the bones of this of this character’s motivation? And that took me to Othello, and then it all kind of came together for me. That’s so cool.
Meg Hamand [00:47:26]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:27]:
That is so cool. And I’m, you know, sitting here getting way ahead of myself thinking, if you’re into Shakespeare and historical fiction, you’ve got a gold mine right there, if you choose to go there. Mhmm. I mean, you could do so many things with that, or you could just go and write something set in Elizabethan England, you know?
Meg Hamand [00:47:47]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:48]:
I mean, so so many geeky English major things you could do with that that, you know Yeah. That you’re probably not gonna do because you don’t have to do what I’m coming up with here at all. But, you know, obviously, we’ve got two English majors sitting here just being geeks now.
Meg Hamand [00:48:07]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:08]:
So, yeah. But no, this sounds really cool.
Meg Hamand [00:48:11]:
The hope is that the book, you know, really speaks to my fellow Shakespearean geeks or any sort of, like, really literary I I there’s a lot of, Truman Capote, like imagery from one of his lesser known novels that really helped build some of the set, the scenery in my mind for the second book. But also if you don’t get any of that, hopefully it’s just kind of a really interesting story about, a young woman trying to find her place in, you know, early eighteen hundreds Charleston after the revolutionary war and has a little feminism and talks about a lot about, you know, kind of being trapped, whether that’s with mental illness or society norms or, like, literal state slavery. So hopefully, wherever you’re at, you can find enjoyment from my books.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:01]:
Sounds good to me. So I’m I’m wondering since you’ve done all of this historical research, if there’s anybody listening who wants to give this a try or just is curious about a particular time period. Do you have any advice on how to dig into history in a in a way that’s not what I would do, which is just go out and Google and see what you find.
Meg Hamand [00:49:25]:
Yeah. I think that it helps. I like starting with historical fiction, of that time period. I think there’s a lot of, mentions of real places and times and characters and situations that you can then say, all right, that’s what I wanna learn more about. And then you can start finding, you know, books about that place and time or that character, and just start digging in from there. I think having the overview of, you know, a more general historical fiction novel is what can help you then start to really hone in. And then for me, when I was doing my research, I tried to focus a lot on firsthand accounts. So I read quite a few memoirs about living in Terezin and living in Auschwitz.
Meg Hamand [00:50:08]:
And, because that is, you know, straight from the horse’s mouth. So, you know, I read a lot of nonfiction books. I did a lot of travel books about, terror or, Prague, right, to just kind of understand just the area. But I think hearing it directly from the source is the best way to really get a handle on what was what life was like at that time period.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:32]:
That makes sense. Do you, like, watch any movies or documentaries? Did you get to go there?
Meg Hamand [00:50:39]:
I have not been to Prague, which I feel a little bit like a fraud. I feel a lot like a fraud because I’ve written all of this off of just research and actually had a friend go to Prague this last fall. And she’s texting me for, like, travel tips. Like, where should I go? And I thought she knew that I hadn’t been. So I’m like, well, you need to go to St. Charles Bridge and you need to go see these synagogues and you need to go, you know, see the astronomical clock and all these things. And she had read a first edition, you know, like a first draft of the book. And so she is like, it’s exactly like you said.
Meg Hamand [00:51:13]:
And she said something about when you were there and I was like, oh no, I’ve never been. And she was like, what? I’m taking, basically I’m taking advice from you and you’ve never even been there. So that’s a little bit how I feel. But I just feel like I just had to do my research extra, extra well, extra thorough so that I could write it with some confidence.
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:36]:
Well, you certainly are not the first. There are plenty of other authors who have written places that they have never been to Yeah. And have done it really, really well. So, you know, no no imposter syndrome allowed here for that. None at all. I mean, I I think I think their research for that kind of thing can be half the fun of it Yeah. Really. And then then you you have a big list of places that are on your list to check out when you finally get to go.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:07]:
Yeah. So, you know, and and in your case, when you get to go, you’ll be able to see your characters in all of those places, and that
Meg Hamand [00:52:14]:
will be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So my book has been to Prague. I had another friend that went over spring break to Prague by chance, and so she took my book and took pictures of it and all the different
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:26]:
places that I had
Meg Hamand [00:52:27]:
written about. It was the best. That is so cool. Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:32]:
I hope that, like, you threw them all over Instagram or whatever.
Meg Hamand [00:52:35]:
Absolutely. I did. I did.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:39]:
Yeah. Oh, that’s awesome. That’s fantastic. I love it. I can picture them right now. Yeah. That’s those those are the best kind of friends. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:49]:
For sure. It was so special. Yeah. I bet when you go, you’ll have other ideas for other things you wanna set there too.
Meg Hamand [00:52:56]:
Yeah. I I think every time we come back from some sort of trip, I’ve got ideas of and, you know, and, of course, that’s how I came up with the second idea for Charleston, just going and spending a week in the city and falling in love with it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:10]:
Yeah. Places are characters, like we were saying earlier. You know? I mean, they they really are. They have their own their own energy and their own magic, and they’re certainly more than capable of inspiring all sorts of ideas and and characters within the character, which sounds weird, but also makes sense in its own strange, writer
Meg Hamand [00:53:32]:
y way. So
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this all sounds so exciting. I mean, I hope that people, you know, will go and and read this book. It’s not a light read, but it’s a really, really good compelling read, especially, you know, as it as it moves along toward the end, in particular, was when I really couldn’t put it down. And I’m I’m very curious to see what this next book is like, and like I said, we’ll have to have you back to talk about it.
Meg Hamand [00:54:03]:
Thank you. I’d love that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:04]:
Actually, as a as a Shakespeare geek, I’ll have to go and, you know, watch a production of Othello because it’s been a long time. Gee, darn. And then and then give it a read when it comes out. So that’ll be fun. And I, you know, wish you the best of luck with it, with all of it. Thank you.
Meg Hamand [00:54:26]:
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:29]:
That’s this week’s episode. Thanks so much to Meg Hamand and to you. Meg’s links are in the show notes. I hope you’ll leave a review for this episode. There’s a link in your podcast app, and it is super easy and makes such a difference. If you enjoyed our conversation, please do share it with a friend. Thank you so much. If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now, join me at the spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:01]:
It’s free, and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners. The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there, and see you next week. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.