Becoming the Eighth Doctor with Paul McGann, Part 1

This week—this month!—I have the honor and pleasure of talking with actor Paul McGann. He started his career in the West End, moving to TV with the BBC’s Monocled Mutineer, and to film with the cult classic Withnail and I. His credits also include Horatio Hornblower, Luther, and the Dickens adaptation Our Mutual Friend, and he’s narrated numerous documentaries. All that said, he’s probably best known as the Eighth Doctor from Doctor Who.

In the first of two episodes , Paul and I talk about how his elder brother, Joe, steered him to drama school, the advice he was given early on, and of course, how he came to be the Eighth Doctor—and what that role has taught him about himself, fandom, and the power of stories to influence our lives.

Check out the show notes and links below, and join the conversation about this episode on Instagram!

Stories mean, sometimes, the world to people. They can save your morale. They can tip you that way instead of that way.

Paul McGann

Show links

Paul McGann on IMDB

The BBC’s Eighth Doctor page

Big Finish Eighth Doctor stories

Long Island Doctor Who

My list of 53 Things I Learned from Watching Doctor Who

Steven Moffat on Why We Need Heroes (and why the Doctor is an unusual hero)

Peter Cushing as the Doctor

Dave Chapelle’s Mark Twain Prize acceptance speech

50th Anniversary story Night of the Doctor

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Transcript

Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:07]:
Hello and welcome to Follow Your Curiosity, where we explore the ups and downs of the creative process and how to keep it moving. I’m your host Nancy Norbeck. I am a writer, singer, improv comedy, newbie, science fiction geek and creativity coach who loves helping right brained folks get unstuck. I am so excited to be coming to you with interviews and coaching calls to show you the depth and breadth both of creative pursuits and creative people to give you some insight into their experiences and to inspire you. I’m so excited to bring you the next two episodes. Actor Paul McGann has had a long and varied career that includes cult classic film with Nell and I and tv shows including Horatio Hornblower and Luther. But for a lot of people, hes the 8th Doctor from Doctor who. This interview is a first in several ways.

Nancy Norbeck [00:00:59]:
Its the first two part Follow Your Curiosity episode, my first interview with the Doctor. And as youll hear, I am honored and thrilled to be bringing you Paul’s very first podcast ever. In the first of two episodes recorded in May, we cover everything from how he and his brothers got started as actors to the advice Bruce Robinson gave him after Whithnail and I to coronavirus lockdown. Of course, we also go down the doctor who rabbit hole, and I think you’ll be especially intrigued to hear what he enjoys most about interacting with fans and what he’s learned about the power of stories. Without further ado, here’s part one of my conversation with Paul McGann.

Paul McGann [00:01:38]:
You know, today, finally I get to do a podcast. I’ve never been involved in a podcast before.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:46]:
I wondered about that.

Paul McGann [00:01:48]:
This is the very first time.

Nancy Norbeck [00:01:49]:
That’s so cool. So honored.

Paul McGann [00:01:53]:
Well, me too, and I’m slightly excited. It’s only recently that, you know, particularly through the suns, I’ve got to listen to podcasts. Podcasts, of course, are now almost the spirit of the age, and they’re kind of fantastic, aren’t they? I’m really enjoying them finding the road.

Nancy Norbeck [00:02:18]:
It took me a long time to come around to the idea of them, and then I suddenly was addicted overnight. And then here I am with my own, which still kind of blows my mind. So thank you so much for doing this. I’m really, really psyched.

Paul McGann [00:02:33]:
I’m just sorry that it took. I mean, it’s typical me. I rarely forget, but I rarely. It normally takes a while.

Nancy Norbeck [00:02:44]:
That’s all right. We got here in the end.

Paul McGann [00:02:47]:
Yeah. I’m not the quickest, as you will no doubt find.

Nancy Norbeck [00:02:52]:
Oh, that’s all right.

Paul McGann [00:02:54]:
As we get to know each other.

Nancy Norbeck [00:02:56]:
So I usually start with just like, you know, where, where did you get started on your creative journey? How did you figure out that you weren’t going to be a plumber or a tax accountant or, you know, whatever else you could, could have done, you know, was, was there something you did as a kid? I mean, I know you grew up in a fairly large family, and certainly you are not the only actor in it. So I don’t know if it was just, there was something in the water.

Paul McGann [00:03:37]:
It looks, it looks that way. But, uh, actually, nothing could be further than the truth. When I was a kid, and as you mentioned, the family and the siblings there, of course, you know, for those of those that may not know, there are four boys in. I’ve got three brothers and a sister, Claire, who’s the baby. The boys are now, or have been actors. We all sort of became actors around the same time back in the end of the seventies, you know, the eighties. And I’ve been doing it ever since for myself. And in answer to your question, when I was a kid, I think my only, my dream, I suppose, my childlike dream, probably my only ambition was in sport.

Paul McGann [00:04:33]:
That was my thing. I was that kid, you know, I was completely wrapped. Even from a really early age, you know, my mom tells the story. 1964, it must have been the Tokyo Olympics was on. I was four years old, three or four years old, and she came down, she said she was in bed. And she woke my dad up and said, I can hear a noise, you know, they were worried that someone was in the house. Anyway, my dad being the brave one, he came downstairs and me and my brother, my older brother were watching the Tokyo Olympics. Three or four in the morning.

Paul McGann [00:05:15]:
I can even still remember the tune, good morning, Tokyo. I can still remember the. You know, we must have had this tiny, as people did in those days, this tiny tv set, you know, but there was, there was something about it. I can still remember. I can still remember being hooked on the idea of it. The Olympic games. What an idea, you know, for a kid like me. I was one of the converted to a kid like me.

Paul McGann [00:05:42]:
That was, that was kind of heavenly. And of course, the next one was in Mexico. I remember that well, and so on and so forth. By the time I was in the big school, I was twelve years old. The Munich Olympics happened in 72. And by that time, I just wanted to go. That’s what, that’s, that was my only ambition in life. I was blessed because I was a.

Paul McGann [00:06:04]:
I’m not a big guy, but I was all, but I’m quite small, but I was always strong and quick and light and I was quick on my feet and I was a good runner, you know, I was happy to say the fastest kid in the school, you know, when we were little and then went to the big school and the same thing happened and it got me into it and my dream, I suppose, was to. Was to do that. And I was a good kid. And through the teenage 1213, 1415, I ran and I jumped and I. That’s what I did. And that was. And travel. Got to travel a bit doing it and did it to a pretty good standard, you know.

Paul McGann [00:06:48]:
So the sort of, I suppose the kind of national school standard. So it was great, you know, it was. And it was exciting and there was possibilities in it. But like, probably thousands, like so many of us, by the time you get to wherever you are, wherever you grew up, you get to 1617. And that sort of combination of. I said, well, let’s just call them extramural excitements. And, you know, other things begin to creep in or impinge on your discipline or just, you know, are far more exciting at that time. The schoolwork goes by the board.

Paul McGann [00:07:30]:
That was me. I was typical that. That’s exactly what I did. Though I was talented, I probably lacked the discipline and the quality and so didn’t make the cut. And sport is like. It’s a bit like showbiz in that regard. It can be pretty brutal. So I just.

Paul McGann [00:07:49]:
It just didn’t happen. And I went instead what I did at 17 and even in school, I was no high flyer. You know, my siblings are, you know, a couple of them particularly. In fact, all of them are pretty bright, you know, academic. I wasn’t in any way. I followed my brother down to London. We grew up in Liverpool. London was 200 miles away.

Paul McGann [00:08:14]:
He’d already gone. He was two years ahead of me. So I went down with him and knocked around. And it was only really then two, three years after that that somebody persuaded me to audition for an acting school. And I did. And I was slightly embarrassed to do it. Well, I was. I just.

Paul McGann [00:08:36]:
It was because partly. Perhaps partly because. I don’t know, just something to do with. I don’t know what it was to do with. I just. But I felt slightly nervous and embarrassed to be doing it. However, when I just did this one audition at one place on one day and I got in and I changed everything and I became an actor. Yeah, that’s how it happened.

Paul McGann [00:09:01]:
And I don’t know if that hadn’t happened that day, I’d have probably done something else. I was even. I remember even the same big brother, when I think back, actually was looking out for me more than I, even more than I realized at the time. You know, I would do things like I also had as a sort of side passion, if it can be called a passion. You know, I think because I sort of adored my father, my late father, and I guess I wanted to please him in some way. I remember my big brother almost physically stopping me from going into a recruiting office. Yeah, yeah, that’s maybe 18. My dad had been in the royal Navy, and so I wanted to do that.

Paul McGann [00:09:52]:
My brother said, no, no, no, he stopped me doing that. So, you know, if I’m trying to create the picture of a confused kid, it’s because I was, you know, I just was. I was a bit half assed. I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. But like so many times in life, sometimes you. You’re not just in the right direction, and when you find yourself somewhere, you think, oh, wow, why didn’t I. Why didn’t I realize this before? Anyway, I loved the training. I enjoyed the time.

Paul McGann [00:10:22]:
That was in London. That was at the rada. That was, you know, the Royal Academy. This is a great school, you know, and as soon as I was in aged, what was I then? 1819, you know, and essentially what the schools are, it’s a company, you know, you’re in a group, maybe 2025 kids. You’re together for a couple of years, two or three years, you’re putting on all these shows. It’s kind of safe. Away you go, you know. And then I left there in 81, aged 21, and I’ve been an actor ever since.

Nancy Norbeck [00:11:03]:
That’s fantastic. But then they just throw you out into the cold, cruel world of acting after that nice, cozy experience.

Paul McGann [00:11:11]:
Showbiz ain’t so. I don’t know. Showbiz ain’t so much cruel as sports cruel. But showbiz is, I suppose, indifferent. It’s not the same thing. It simply doesn’t care about you. And I don’t mean that to sound brutal, but showbiz, if it ain’t you or if you ain’t getting it, it’s because one of your rivals is getting it, is getting the work. It’s not about you.

Paul McGann [00:11:43]:
You don’t need to worry about that. And there’s something kind of, I guess I quickly learned was, I suppose, a kind of comfort. And it runs counter, actually, to how a lot of people could easily imagine performers, actors, you know, and often how they’re portrayed, you know, that it’s their egomaniacs, so it’s all about fame and celebrity or something. When it was 99% of them, it couldn’t be further from the truth. You know, most of us are. I include myself, you know, ensemble people, company people, you know, that’s the buzz of it, the joy of it. I’ve always enjoyed that the most. Yeah.

Paul McGann [00:12:25]:
Of course, there’s a few empire builders and star turns, you know, but that’s me, and that’s. And. And I just enjoyed it. I enjoyed it right from the off. And the brothers, through some happy accidents, within a year or so, were also actors. So it’s now become a small family business.

Nancy Norbeck [00:12:58]:
That must be kind of interesting, though, when you put it that way. I mean, because you all have that shared experience in that environment. It must be very different than if you’re the lone person who’s out here trying this thing that’s so completely different from everybody else. There must be a degree of comfort in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all get it.

Paul McGann [00:13:23]:
I agree. You know? Yeah. I mean, had I been, like, the outlier in the family. Yeah. I don’t know. I can’t remember anymore. But of course, it would have been different to be the individual, you know? Whereas in my family, and my siblings as well, particularly the boys, there are the four of us, but only five years between us. We’re all the same age, really.

Paul McGann [00:13:51]:
We even at the beginning, we even. I say in the first few years, we even all shared an agent. The same agent represented all of us. And that’s. And I only say that because what that meant was. And she, this agent wouldn’t have taken it on, I guess, if. If we were Samey. What’s the point now? Having two.

Paul McGann [00:14:19]:
The same. This is how agents work. I can’t take one because I’ve already got one of those. That’s how they tend to recruit. Again, the indifference of it. But whereas we were sufficiently different that we’re almost exactly. We looked the same, we were the same age, but we all did different things, you know? So that was good. And we still do.

Paul McGann [00:14:45]:
Yeah. And it went well, you know, it went well from. Almost. From the off. Now I sound like some old lag. It’s been 40 years now, but it was in Britain then, and the schools were stage schools strictly. There was no. You know, because there were no lightweight cameras or the modern technology that we’re used to now.

Paul McGann [00:15:18]:
I’m still attached to the school. I’m still. I go back to the school that I was at, you know, to. For different reasons, of course, you know, and I’m a bit envious of them now. They’ve got sort of film studios and different, you know, all the kit that we kind of wished we’d had. And I said, because, you know, again, I can distinctly remember being 19, being at this place and happy to find, you know, that a large proportion of the kids that were there in my year, in my term in the group were working class kids like me, you know, and similar to me, you know, not many of us really had seen a lot of theater. Our parents simply hadn’t gone to the theater. They’d never taken us to the theater.

Paul McGann [00:16:01]:
Yeah, of course, there were one or two that were steeped in it, you know, perhaps come from a different background. Some kids knew opera and had been to shows. Maybe some kids had lived in London. But I was probably typical, you know, we became actors because of movie stars, films we’d seen, you know, in the cultures and the backgrounds and the places that we come from, you know, your way in was tv and film, though, when we got to train, it was classical theater, because. And it’s a great train, you know. Anyway, I’m not knocking it, it was fantastic, you know, and quick. But that’s different now, you know, but, you know, like I say, if I was that kid now, you know, you’d be making short films and probably, you know, radio plays and the like, you know, so. So now I do sound like old lag, but the way that it worked was, again, back then, was that if you wanted to progress or any idea, any conception of starting a career, firstly, the big obstacle was the union.

Paul McGann [00:17:18]:
The UK equity union was still in those days and would be for another five or six years, a closed show. So until the Thatcher government stopped that. So you needed to get into the union, you needed to get going. And that was brutal, because probably eight out of ten of the kids that I trained with never even started because they couldn’t get into the union anyway. I did got started. And you, if you wanted to be, say, if you dreamt, like, I was, like, once I dreamt about the Olympics, you know, suddenly now that the fixation became trying to get into somebody’s movie, say that would like, be that, like, be going to the Olympics, but to get in a movie, no one’s going to give you a movie. So first of all, what you probably have to do is try and get into somebody’s stage play, then onto the tv, get into something on the telly, and hopefully somebody sees you and then put you in a movie. And this was this sort of time honored way of doing it.

Paul McGann [00:18:19]:
And that’s what happened to me. You know, the old, the maxim is still true, but, you know, they used to say to us, just be good. Be good in a hit on the telly, and then you might get a movie. And that’s what happened. I know I ended up in a movie. I know that was my only ambition enough that I was 25 years old. And I thought, well, what happens next? What do I do now? You know, it’s funny because I don’t know that I’m that ambitious, really. I mean, is being ambitious important, really.

Paul McGann [00:18:57]:
And I don’t know. I’m asking, I’m asking for a friend.

Nancy Norbeck [00:19:05]:
I don’t know. I think you’d get a lot of different answers to that question.

Paul McGann [00:19:09]:
But having young ambition, you know, I mean, it’s, you know, maybe it’s, it fuels you. Maybe it sort of drives you a little bit. But of course, you know, whatever, like, you know, you can end up putting the ladder up against the wrong wall, as Joe Campbell would say. You know, you can just, you can go down the wrong thing. Anyway, so I’ve been doing it ever since, and I’ve been, I’ve been lucky. I’m still doing it. I’m happy doing it. I’ll always do it because I’m not trained to do anything else.

Paul McGann [00:19:43]:
And hopefully I’ll always enjoy it. You know, I’ve got to see the world. I’ve raised a family on it like my siblings have there. So reflective. Maybe it’s this lockdown. We’re all in a lockdown. I am. I’m in a locked.

Nancy Norbeck [00:20:05]:
I know we all are suddenly, but.

Paul McGann [00:20:07]:
You know, the idea, suddenly it’s like it’s become about, you know, the appreciation of simple things, you know, trying to suddenly you’re these, these strangest days and weeks, you know, now it’s been weeks and weeks now, you know, suddenly contentment becomes the thing, you know, stuff you never thought about before, you know, just to have sufficient. Just to have space. To have space and means, you know, enough. Just have enough. It’s okay, right? Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:20:38]:
Yeah. The bar. The bar drops pretty quickly or just.

Paul McGann [00:20:41]:
All moves sideways or something. I don’t know if it’s. Maybe it’s been raised. Maybe there’s a, maybe there’s a. There’s a way of thinking, you know, that. In fact, maybe it has or it’s crystallized or. I guess what I’m trying to say is that you know, we certainly. Simple but better things have come in, hoved into view.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:02]:
Yeah.

Paul McGann [00:21:03]:
And all you hear most days here, I’m sure it’s the same where you are, you know, is that when this is over, when this is past, you know, that it’s to be hoped that we can sort of hang on to a little bit of that. Remember, remember these things.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:19]:
Yeah. Especially things like the pollution free skies and things like that, but nobody exactly expected.

Paul McGann [00:21:27]:
Yeah. The bird song.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:29]:
Yeah.

Paul McGann [00:21:30]:
The moon last night was just, you know, magnificent. Yeah. Clean air, cleaner air.

Nancy Norbeck [00:21:39]:
I know. What a concept.

Paul McGann [00:21:41]:
I’ve been so happy because. Because last year I discovered rediscovered cycling. Somebody roped me into a charity cycling event, you know, and I’d had a couple of bikes down the years. I’d. You know, I’d like cycling as a kid, but this was a serious matter, you know, it’s like a. It was like running a marathon on a bike. So I had to train for a few weeks, but I bought this nice bike, and now the bike is in the hall here. And now it’s spring.

Paul McGann [00:22:15]:
Of course, here it’s been just joyous getting out around the hills where we live here, although we live in a city, it’s, you know, five minutes. It’s one of those cities you can escape really quickly on a bike. Countryside. So I’ve maintained my sanity just by, you know, I’ve become that old git on a bike.

Nancy Norbeck [00:22:38]:
I think we all have. You know, I’m going out for walks as often as I can just to get out of my house, you know.

Paul McGann [00:22:44]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [00:22:45]:
And see other people too, whom I cannot speak and now mostly can’t even see anything other than their eyes. So, actually, this is a great treat. You have an entire face. It’s great.

Paul McGann [00:22:57]:
Well, thank you. I’ve never had any complaints.

Nancy Norbeck [00:23:05]:
So I’m curious, since you said that your parents never really took you to the theater, did they? How did they react when all four of you ended up becoming actors?

Paul McGann [00:23:15]:
I think that they. I mean, had they. I think had they had the means, then they would have, you know, we might have gone to the theater. You know, Liverpool was a place. It was, you know, it wasn’t inconceivable that people filled the theaters, you know, listened to music. And it’s one of those places, you know, it’s a great city for that. And my parents, you know, my mom sang in clubs. My dad was a musician, you know, so I guess that had things been slightly different, maybe we had more money, or maybe they just thought theatre was too expensive.

Paul McGann [00:23:57]:
I don’t think they thought it was an idle pursuit.

Nancy Norbeck [00:24:00]:
Okay.

Paul McGann [00:24:01]:
And I can remember going once with my mum. I must have been about twelve, the only time we went. And we went to the local playhouse in Liverpool and an actor called Richard Todd, an Englishman who, bless him, had been amongst the first wave on Gold beach. He was in that glider squadron, I think, that landed on Pegasus Bridge on the 6 June. Wow. The equity members. It was the equity members that started it, you know. Don’t let anyone ever tell you different.

Paul McGann [00:24:46]:
It was. It was the actors that spearheaded it. Anyway, Todd, I guess, in a way he was. I know, because there’s a statue of him now in Elstree, in the high street, in El street where the studios are here. And I guess he would be like the English Audie Murphy or something, because after the war, they fitted him up for a film career and he shot war pictures. Anyway, there was a story called the Hasty Heart and Todd, probably in the fifties, they made this thing, became a film. It was a film my mum liked. She would have seen it.

Paul McGann [00:25:28]:
And years later, in the seventies, he was touring it, the same actor, probably 25 years too old for the role, and we went and we went to see him. So there he was. So I saw Richard Todd, the English Audie Murphy, at the Liverpool Playhouse. And I remember being quite moved by it and moved by my mum’s reactions to it and remember feeling like not really quite knowing how to behave in a theatre. What did you do? You know, but kind of liking it at the same time. Yeah. But in answer to your question, I think they’d have been happy. And I know when it quickly happened.

Paul McGann [00:26:15]:
And once we became actors, that is, me and my brothers, within months, we were actually all working together. The only time we ever worked together on the stage. And we ended up in the west End of London in this musical together, playing brothers. And it was a hit.

Nancy Norbeck [00:26:33]:
How convenient.

Paul McGann [00:26:34]:
It was a hit. We were in the West End for whatever. Months. Months. And my dad, before he died, he died young, my dad, he died in 84, but this was 82, and he came and he saw it, so. And any skepticism, I guess, that he’d had before. I’m not sure that initially that he thought it was the sort of job for a chap. I don’t know that he thought it was man’s work.

Paul McGann [00:27:00]:
I don’t want to suggest that he was, you know, just he was a macho bonehead or anything. He wasn’t far from it, but he was skeptical. But he let us do it. And the joy was seeing him there on the opening night, beaming, there we were in this silly hit. It was great. And we could sing as well. We were singing and playing and throwing ourselves around, pretending to be dancers. And that’s how it happened.

Paul McGann [00:27:35]:
The younger brother, Stephen, that was his first job. He literally came down from school. Now his name’s in lights in London. He’s down. I remember my dad wasn’t pleased about that. Stephen’s very bright, like my little sister, you know. Now they’re scientists. He’s an author, but he initially left school to run away to the circus, effectively, so we could all be in the show.

Paul McGann [00:28:00]:
But it all worked out in the.

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:01]:
End, I was going to say, it’s clearly worked out well for him, too. I mean, he’s been on call the midwife now for how long? Among other things, so, yeah, yeah, that’s a great.

Paul McGann [00:28:12]:
I mean, that’s a great thing for them, you know, I think that’s into nine or ten seasons now.

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:17]:
Yeah, I’ve lost track now.

Paul McGann [00:28:19]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good for them, you know, because I supposed to find in this. In this game, in this profession, you know, to get anything even remotely stable is rare, right? And when it comes along, you know, you just grab it. So, anyway, there we are.

Nancy Norbeck [00:28:46]:
There we are. So I guess if your parents were both musical, it was no great shock that you would have ended up in a musical. You must have done a fair bit of music at home when you were kids.

Paul McGann [00:28:58]:
We did again, you know, Liverpool was one of those places where I guess there’s a kind of expectation and a little bit of fame attached to the place, you know, for that. It’s a music city, you know, and the Beatles had been, you know, sort of taken, taking the world on from there. Just, you know, ten years before that, kids kicked the football, played guitars again, you know, the point being that it wasn’t, even if you were working class, it wasn’t inconceivable. It wasn’t out of the question that you could think about doing something like that. It was okay, you know, like, in some areas, you know, kids end up on the boxing or they end up in sports. It’s either sport or showbiz, you know, these are good outlets for places like that. And I guess it was, you know, one of us was going to do it. Joe, the older one, he was, you know, when he went to London before I did, he was straight in the music business.

Paul McGann [00:30:09]:
You know, he was a songwriter, he was a player. He was trying to get a little record deal, you know, so we were. And Mark eventually, you know, Mark gets a stuff, but Mark’s two years younger than I am. But he. He became an actor before any of us because the. In 1980, when John Lennon was killed, Mark played him when the local theater in Liverpool was looking for. Because they quickly, probably indecently quickly put a show on about Lennon, and they looked for a kid to play Lenin. My brother got the job.

Paul McGann [00:30:42]:
You know, someone from the theater literally came to a gig. He had a group at the time. He played this gig, and somebody came up after, you know, just like in a film. Some, you know, some from theater came after the. When the gig was over and said, do you want to be an actor? You know, to him and the bass player and offered him an equity card. And that was it. He was up and running and he played John Lennon that went into the West End, you know, so. And that’s because he could play.

Paul McGann [00:31:08]:
And so it was an advantage. It was an advantage to be able to sing a bit, play a bit. Yeah. And Mark still does to this day. Mark, who, curiously, is 15 years older than John Lennon ever was, but still puts on these, a couple of times a year, puts on these fantastic shows, international shows, you know, shows, the groups and sometimes orchestras based on Lenin because he’s still, Mark, still the kind of preeminent Lenin voice, the Lenin impressionist, you know. And some, you know, there you go. I’m bigging up my brother.

Nancy Norbeck [00:31:58]:
You’re allowed.

Paul McGann [00:32:00]:
Don’t tell him. Just. Just make sure he’ll never hear that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:32:05]:
I’ll find a way to upload it that says, everyone but Mark can get this episode. So you mentioned that when you got the movie, then you were sort of like, well, this is what I wanted. So now what? So how, you know, how did that work after that? I mean, when you just kind of like, now what do I do? Or did the next thing so quickly that it didn’t matter?

Paul McGann [00:32:32]:
When the movie in question was Whithnail and I, and Whithnail was. It was a good movie, really good movie, but slightly strange. You know, it wasn’t. Later on, it found its audience, and now it’s become a kind of, you know, respected sort of almost a classic. Everybody watches it now. But when it was first released, although we liked it, we thought it was great. It didn’t get a proper release, really, and kind of disappeared for a while and then found its feet later as the format changed. But when I’d made it, when we’d shot it and it had come out and in answer to your question.

Paul McGann [00:33:20]:
I can distinctly remember Bruce Robinson, who made with nail. He wrote and directed it. Months later, he said to me, he rang me and he said, what are you doing? I said, well, you know, I’m reading stuff, and your scripts are getting sent, you know, because, you know, it sort of bumped our status up a little bit. And suddenly I was being sent scripts. Nice. I was 26 years old, whatever it was. And I can remember him saying to me, listen, listen. He said, don’t wait for another one of them.

Paul McGann [00:33:51]:
Don’t wait for another one. Like we just did. It ain’t gonna happen. And what he meant was, you know, I suppose what he was saying was, take, don’t drop the ball. Get going. Take the next thing. Just take the next thing. And I was.

Paul McGann [00:34:07]:
He nailed it. I was waiting for something just like the thing we’d just done, you know, and, well, suffice to say, I’ve never seen one since. So I’d have still been waiting, you know, staring out the window, but. So he was right, you know, so it’s like, just take the next one. Just keep going. So in a way, that’s what happened. And I’ve just been. That’s really just what I’ve been doing ever since.

Paul McGann [00:34:34]:
Like I say, you know, being a. Being an actor, being a pro, you just, you know, I’ve been Jammy, too, you know, that I’ve been able, down the years, able to do different things, you know, go back into the theater, do radio and audio stuff, you know, get by on voice work occasionally, be in somebody’s film. You know, you never know more than a few weeks ahead what’s coming down the line at you, where you’re gonna be. You know, you’ve got to get used to that first. So my dad was right, really. You know, it isn’t really a job for a sensible person, never mind. Never mind a man. But one gets used to it.

Paul McGann [00:35:20]:
I don’t know what I’m going to be doing next, except, you know, even in these lockdown days in this room, this is my son’s. I’m sat in my son’s bedroom here. He was a musician, so he’s got a little recording facility here, which is great because it’s meant that I’ve been able to do some audio work during the lockdown from home. You know, how lucky is that?

Nancy Norbeck [00:35:42]:
Yeah.

Paul McGann [00:35:43]:
So. And I feel, you know, generally, as I’m talking, generally, you know, that I’ve been. I’ve been lucky. I’ve been fortunate and continue to be lucky, blessed in that way. That I’m able just to keep going because I still really like it. I still really like it. And it’s sociable. Say I’ve got to travel the world.

Paul McGann [00:36:14]:
And I don’t just mean turning left on airplanes. Yeah, that’s happened once or twice, and that’s a hoot. But what I mean is just seeing things perhaps that I wouldn’t have done otherwise. Been great, you know? Long may it continue. When? Recently when? Just before we got locked down, in fact, when? I think it’s like another age now to remember. But it was only in March. I know I was at a show. We went to a convention in Pensacola.

Paul McGann [00:36:47]:
And now when I think it’s just whatever, just a few weeks ago, but you could be talking. Two years back, we flew on planes.

Nancy Norbeck [00:36:56]:
Yeah.

Paul McGann [00:36:56]:
Went to airports. We walked on the beach. We went out to restaurants. The show had 35,000 people at it. Everyone hugged, everyone kissed, everyone shook hands. We laughed and we joked. This is just a few weeks back, you know, mad.

Nancy Norbeck [00:37:13]:
Yeah.

Paul McGann [00:37:14]:
Strange times. But those shows and those, and go into these, you know, which I do a few times a year. That’s what I mean. I think it’s like, that’s got the spirit, I suppose. What I’m talking, what I’m trying to describe, these are things you can really enjoy. You know, you can enjoy this, like I say, the sociability of these things, the fun of it. You know, it’s work for some of us, but as well, you know, you’ve got to work when you get there. But it’s joyous, you know.

Paul McGann [00:37:46]:
And in Pensacola, I traveled with and worked with a fantastic actor, british actor Sian Phillips. You know, Sian, in my view, is a great actress. She’s 87, I think.

Nancy Norbeck [00:38:02]:
Good Lord.

Paul McGann [00:38:03]:
But. And still with more energy than I’ve got. More, you know, more. And working in the spirit that I’m trying to, you know, it’s never going to end. You can do this. You can do this caper for as long as you feel like. No one’s going to tell you to stop anyway. We can’t stop.

Paul McGann [00:38:27]:
There’s no retiring out of this. There’s less retiring now for all of us, I think. But if you’re in showbiz. Yeah, you ain’t going to retire, so. And that was lovely being with Sean, anyway, just. And as a reminder that, you know, it’s okay, there’s years to go, you know, it’s just enjoy it, you know, enjoy yourself, which I tried to do, you know, initially, I was particularly regarding the conventions and having, you know, first got into doctor who and then because the conventions came by that, you know, ordinarily I would never have gone to one of these things. If you knew me, you’d agree. And I was skeptical and rather nervous about the idea of going even after I’d started doing doctor who.

Paul McGann [00:39:30]:
So it took a while, but once I was persuaded and once I did one and realized, actually, you know, it’s kind of joyous for the most part, I’ve been going back to them ever since and really having a ball.

Nancy Norbeck [00:39:46]:
It’s interesting, when you were talking about, you know, how, how social it’s been, I thought, you know, there are, there are two things that jump out at me with that. The first is that I’m, you know, I know that there are stories of people shouting lines from, with nail at you as you’re walking down the street, which is obviously a social thing, whether in that moment you want it to be or not. And yet it is that simultaneous recognition and appreciation thing. And so that’s one thing that is kind of its own phenomenon, as far as I know. There are not with male conventions, though I could be wrong. And then you have the doctor who side, which is just exactly what you’ve just been talking about. In fact, this morning I thought, yeah, two months ago I thought I was going to go to Long island in November. Now, no one knows, but, you know, I’ve only been to a few of those.

Nancy Norbeck [00:40:40]:
But even so, especially what struck me at Long island last this past November is just how, I mean, you actually said it, that it feels like family, I think, because everybody there obviously knows everybody so well because they’ve been doing this for so long. And so it’s not just someone shouting quotes in the street. It’s like, like this whole shared experience, possibly also the rest of us being completely crazy about a tv show. But, but you’re right.

Paul McGann [00:41:11]:
But the sociability extends to the fans mostly, you know, down the years. And I’ve, you know, countless fans, you know, when we speak, have said, and they’ve been in a group with other friends, with fan friends. They said, no, we met at one of the shows and they’ve known each other for years. That’s what I mean. It’s created all these relationships and these kind of almost family bond. You’re right about the Long island gig. Long island who, that’s a particular favorite of mine. It’s often, nearly always in the week of my birthday.

Nancy Norbeck [00:41:49]:
Well, yeah, but that’s important birthday cards.

Paul McGann [00:41:52]:
So it’s a treat of, because we can have a shindig and no one’s going to stop us. And, you know, the few years that we’ve been going there, you know, like you say, it’s familiar faces. So there’s that, you know, there’s that, and that’s really nice and it’s. And it’s small enough to control. You know, obviously, some of the big shows are fairly corporate and aren’t the same. You know, they can be quite hair raising, but the little ones, I just think are great, you know, and in a way, what a joy, you know, whether it’s doctor who or whatever, you know, whatever people are turning up for, for us. I mean, you know, I find myself saying the same at the shows. You know, if asked the question, you know, although we’re working you, the performers there, we’re all fans, too.

Paul McGann [00:42:51]:
You know, we’re all fans to some degrees of lots of stuff. And there is a real joy in, say, with the who thing of getting together to talk about the thing that you all dig. And for performers, it’s quite normal for, say you do a movie as an actor. Say you do a movie, particularly a movie, it might be a year before anyone ever sees the thing. By that time, if you’re jammy like me, you may have done two or three other things. So it’s like, it’s way done. And nobody really who’s going to get together and talk about, you know, aside from going on publicity junkets. That’s it.

Paul McGann [00:43:29]:
Whereas, you know, when, when we get together in these fan conventions, you know, one of the things actors love. And when you’re in the theater, for example, it’s instantaneous. You know, you can, you can talk to the audience in the bar after the show, talk about the thing you just seen. It’s gonna be. There’s a joy in that. And it’s nice as a performer to hear feedback, you know, good, bad and indifferent. Anyway, it’s just part of it, you know, because we’re interested. So, so these fan, so in that way, when they’re at their best, these fan shows and conventions, or they’re just an intense version of that, we love talking about the work, actually.

Paul McGann [00:44:13]:
People say, oh, you must get tired of hearing, no, actually, no, I don’t. Why would you? Because it kind of changes as the weeks and the months and the years go by. Let’s look at with now, you may have done something 30 years ago, but new people keep coming to it. New people are coming to you with huge enthusiasm. And for them, it’s, you know, it’s new. And then, of course, you know, time and distance from these things plays peculiar tricks on your brain. And in the end, these people become, say, with now or anything that’s like decades ago, you know, you yourself begin to forget about these things. So it’s up to the fans to remember for you, I think.

Paul McGann [00:44:58]:
Oh, that’s.

Nancy Norbeck [00:44:59]:
Some of us are frighteningly good at that.

Paul McGann [00:45:02]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I remember. That reminds me of it. Was it. Who was it friend who wrote the. David. Oh, Nick. He wrote a book about David Bowie, and Bowie actually wrote to him.

Paul McGann [00:45:22]:
And it was. This book was so well researched, and Bowie actually paid him the compliment of writing him a letter, but chiefly to thank him. He said thank. He said, cheers, man. He said there was like an 18 month period between I can’t remember a thing. And you’ve, like, you filled the gap in for me, you know, so you perform in a public service, you know, and sometimes fans do that and put you. Right. Remind you.

Paul McGann [00:45:50]:
No, no, no. In fact, you did this then, and then you said that. And so there you go.

Nancy Norbeck [00:45:57]:
Yeah, I like that. And, you know, I feel like there’s plenty of things that come between with Nell and Doctor who, but since we’re there, so did. So there’s my whole career. Well, in a way, you know, I mean, I. Because part of what I’m wondering is, especially because, you know, it was, what, somewhere around 94? 95. Since the movie aired in 96, I would guess if. Did you have any clue that whether or not that movie turned into anything else, you were going to be doing this for the rest of your life?

Paul McGann [00:46:37]:
Well, let’s. Let’s rewind, of course. And I. It’s difficult to remember how one felt, but the fact of the matter was, in 96, that we shot a pilot, a tv pilot, which was meant, had it been successful to go to Ceres. The idea was that we shot it in the wintertime, remember, we turned up in a January 96. And I think the idea was that if the thing had been successful, then a series would be mounted in the autumn of that year, perhaps the October of the same year. So we were working under the assumption partly, that we’d all return back to Vancouver. If this goes well.

Paul McGann [00:47:28]:
And I had signed again, just to get the facts to it, I’d signed a standard contract. When you shoot a pilot, you have to sign a contract before you shoot it. Otherwise you don’t get to shoot it. To say that if this thing goes, you’re going to go with it. And basically they’ve got you for five or six years, whatever it is. But that’s that, and that’s standard. So that could have happened. And at that time, had it happened, we.

Paul McGann [00:48:04]:
That is, me, my wife and children would have relocated to Vancouver for five years. The kids would probably have been little Canadians and we’d have gone, you know, they’d gone. Well, yeah, they’d gone to school there. And even while we were making it, I can. I can remember that, you know, we were in the little time that there was to do it, we were asked to look at or think about schools, look at the local schools, a couple of houses in the bay, this kind of thing. Because when I think now, when I think back, I think, well, of course, that’s the only way to do it. Nobody. Nobody said, this ain’t going.

Paul McGann [00:48:53]:
This ain’t going. But of course, the odds on a pile, any pilot happening are slim, any pile, because it’s so competitive. But of course, you can’t work in that spirit. You know, you have to assume that it’s organ. So that was the feeling. That was how we worked at that time. Doctor who had in Britain had been. When did it leave? 89.

Paul McGann [00:49:16]:
So it was fully five, six years since there’d been anything that we’d shot, anything. Of course, McCoy turned up and we. We did the transfer, so to speak. You know, the handover. My agent. My agent. I’ll never tire of telling this story. My agent was Janet Fielding.

Nancy Norbeck [00:49:39]:
I’ve heard that.

Paul McGann [00:49:41]:
She was my. She was. She was then working at my agent’s office. She’d stopped working as an actor. She’d become an agent. And it’s just by pure coincidence my agent was Tegan, which was lost on me for the fear of when we met because we just didn’t talk about it. What was the point? And it was only really when we were shooting the pilots and Janet came over. She came to Vancouver, as agents do, just to check the five star hotels that were.

Paul McGann [00:50:11]:
Right, go. Taps are working, or whatever it is she. So she was there. And it was only then, in the first few days as it began to, you know, amidst all the nerves, you know, that I was feeling and that she was able to help. Help the penny drop, really help. Help me realize what I was letting myself in for. And I remember there was one night, forgive me if I’ve told you the story, but there was one because it was all night shoots. That thing was ten minutes and midnight, so it was all night shoots.

Paul McGann [00:50:45]:
It was like a month and night shoots, right? So we were there one in the morning. In some back streets somewhere in Vancouver. And it’s cold. I remember distinctly the first time that I encountered a teenage kid who was interested, who stood and we talked on the Sethe know, in between setups. And he was a doctor who fan, and Janet was there. I remember Janet was there. And he. He was quietly sort of wrapped and probably should have been in bed.

Paul McGann [00:51:16]:
He was so. But he. He did. He. It was the first time that any. That I’d encountered a fan, a doctor who fan. Reeling off, without pause, without stopping to breathe, a list of facts, all in chronological order. And then in between, while he was speaking, he twigged.

Paul McGann [00:51:39]:
And we must have had Parker hoods on. You know, we were dressed for the cold, but despite being dressed the way we were, he twigged who Janet was and then began to tell her everything she’d ever done kind of thing. You know what I mean? In about a minute and a half, you know, one of those situations where you know what I’m talking about. And then he. And then he left. Or we were called away. And I remember Janet looking at me and she said, now you get it. Now you get it.

Paul McGann [00:52:11]:
Now you understand where you’ve landed. And I laughed. You know, I’m thinking, wow. Wow. People don’t just love this thing, you know, there’s, like, serious commitment, PhD knowledge of this. Of this what was then, what, 30 years of mythology, you know? And I was amazed by that. Oh, my God. And that’s really never.

Paul McGann [00:52:41]:
That’s never changed. You know, you’re always. You know, you often want to encounters these. How can people hold that much history? And, I mean, I love reading history books myself, but, you know, I can’t. I can’t retain it all, not in that way. And now it’s gone to 50 odd years. And, you know, these people are just fantastic. A few years back, I was sat on a stage somewhere in the States at a show, you know, and, you know, we did a panel.

Paul McGann [00:53:09]:
There’s a q and A or whatever. And I must have been asked some question, some preps with a bit of detail in it. And I simply said, I don’t know. I don’t know. And the young woman who asked the question from the floor said, then what are you doing here? Wow. Yeah. There was a sharp intake of breath, a little bit like you just did in the hall, and then raucous laughter. Right? Because it is funny, you know, I mean, and she meant it well, what are you doing? And that’s a perfectly good question.

Paul McGann [00:53:47]:
You know. You know, you’re meant to. You’re among the Konushenti, you know. Why haven’t you done your homework? I kind of love that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:53:59]:
Oh, my.

Paul McGann [00:54:00]:
But that happens. You get it. You know?

Nancy Norbeck [00:54:04]:
You know, it’s funny when you say, how do. How do people remember all of this? Because I’m sitting here going, I don’t know. How do I remember all of this? Because my. I. One of my friends was a huge mad Men fan, and we called her the walking Encyclopedia of Mad Men, and I was the walking encyclopedia of doctor who. And all I can guess is I started watching it when I was 13 or 14 and just was never stopped. So I think some of it must just be osmosis. I don’t know.

Nancy Norbeck [00:54:33]:
And there are some things that I’m sure other people would be like, no, it was this. And like, okay, but yeah, it is an interesting thing how some things stick with you and some things don’t.

Paul McGann [00:54:44]:
But you know, when. But like I say, to be so invested in it and hungry for it, of course, that’s very human and that’s a beautiful thing. I’ve always been thrilled at that idea. And, you know, we want stories. You know, we were all those small children that said, you know, you get red Astoria.

Nancy Norbeck [00:55:05]:
And you.

Paul McGann [00:55:06]:
Again, again, again, again. You know, you just. You want, you want to hear it again. You, you know, you want to keep it close. You want to remember it, you want to, you know, and years later, it sort of resurfaces when you’re least expecting it. And how did I remember? You know, it’s just the way we are. Something really, really important, I think, isn’t there? Yeah, I mean, I’m talking way beyond my competency, but, but there’s something. There’s something important, isn’t it, to us, about fable stories.

Paul McGann [00:55:37]:
We have to them, you know, having them sort of refashioned, having them repurposed, having them told back to us. You know, we never really, some of us never really lose that joy, that again, again, that sort of toddler childish joy. And, you know, even in the repetition there’s something. And, you know, and to think whether it’s doctor who or I, you know, anything like it, you know, these are, these are, these are fables and mythologies and heroes journeys and stuff that, you know, we’ve, we’ve long. And anyway, those of us that have got children have seen it again. You know, seen, seen the kids do exactly the way we were. You know, it’s, it becomes. Sometimes it’s all you have, you know, but there’s something, something really thrilling about it.

Paul McGann [00:56:32]:
And so, and when you go, and I can say, I can, you know, the, one of the basic joy of working as a performer is, is the satisfaction is the wrong word, but is that is, is to be telling stories, is to be part of it, is to be, you know, simply doing that.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:04]:
Yeah.

Paul McGann [00:57:06]:
You hated, you know, in a way you’d pay to do that. You pay to, to be able to do that, you know, wouldn’t you? Yeah. Now I know what it feels like.

Nancy Norbeck [00:57:16]:
But, you know, I think it’s interesting that you’ve brought this up because so Long island in 2016, which was the weekend after a certain election, was the first who event that I’d ever been to. And I guess it was because of that, that then a week or so later when November 23 rolled around, I thought, I want to make a list of all the things I’ve learned from watching this show. And I thought that it would all be silly things like reverse the polarity of the neutron flow, but it turns out you run out of those in a hurry. And then I think I had, I don’t know, maybe 2025 things and I suddenly realized it was the 53rd anniversary. I’m like, I’m going to see if I can come up with 53 things, which is such a phenomenally geeky thing to do. But I was so intrigued by it as I did it because I realized when in the process, and then when I was finished, I thought watching this show actually totally made me the person I am. The things that are on this list and, you know, like, always cheer for the underdog and the underdog may not be who you think it is, you know, and plenty of other stuff that, you know, like you can save the universe with a kettle and some string, stuff like that. Everybody knows suddenly, right.

Nancy Norbeck [00:58:58]:
You know, but I just thought, wow, you know, of all the things that I thought I learned different things from and that had shaped me into who I am, this is the one thing I never thought about. But it clearly has had so much more of an influence. You know, the whole don’t be afraid to question authority and, you know, all of that because, because the doctor is so not your typical hero. You know, it’s like Stephen Moffat’s description a couple years ago. You know, they didn’t give him a gun. They gave him a screwdriver to fix things. You know, they gave him two hearts. And I thought, yeah, this really is where a lot of my go out and do good things and help the people who need to be helped.

Nancy Norbeck [00:59:44]:
And that kind of stuff came from, and it really, really blew me away. But I think that maybe part of why that character in the show has lasted so long is just because it is such an unconventional hero that speaks to people in a way that Jack Ryan doesn’t.

Paul McGann [01:00:05]:
I agree. I agree with that. You know, he’s now she, you know, perhaps part fugitive. Trevor can’t go home for some reason. You know, there’s already a distance is out, you know, is out traveling. You know, the other day, I was. What was I watching? One of my kids showed me a film of Dave Chappelle receiving the Mark Twain award in. Where would that have been? Probably Washington.

Paul McGann [01:00:46]:
And Chappelle was this great comedian, obviously, but in the. The last thing he said and the thing that, you know, amongst. He’s never lost for words, but he said, just remember, always remember, he said, be kind and unafraid. And it was the way he said it. And I thought, I’ve heard that before. But, I mean, in the end, it’s distilled into. It’s the same thing, you know, whether it’s the doctor, whether it’s, you know, whichever character, whichever mythological character, whichever. Whatever we’ve, you know, whatever we’re identifying with, the lesson seems to be the same, and it’s reduced to that.

Paul McGann [01:01:33]:
And quite right, too, you know, try not to be. Don’t be afraid and just tend to kindness. And that’s the doctor, isn’t it? Anyway, I just. I just remembered that, but. And when you said that, it reminded me again of the times that I’ve particularly sat at the shows, you know, some of the big shows, even particularly the more crowded ones. And there you are, you know, there’s a trestle table, there’s a line of people, there’s work to do. There’s a crowd, you know, and in the line in front of you, and you sort of get used to seeing them. There’s a person in the line who you’re going to.

Paul McGann [01:02:27]:
Any minute now, you’re going to get to talk to, to whom it means something, but I mean, it means something heartfelt, something’s happened, say something, and it might be. And usually what happens is, what I like to try to do is I really want to talk to these people. So. And it’s often impossible in a crowd. So maybe you come around here, or we can go there, we sit there, and in three or four or five minutes, they can talk. And they. And one often hears the same thing. It’s like you may not realize, but without you, me, the doctor, without this got me through such and such a thing when my father.

Paul McGann [01:03:21]:
It’s this kind of thing. Now the reason I’m mentioning this is because aside from the attachment that the. We were speaking about that this some, I find this incredible that people really genuinely draw strength and inspiration. If I hadn’t seen it, if I hadn’t met these people and spoken to, I would perhaps have only read about such things. And I’m grateful is what I’m trying to, I guess, is what I’m. What I’m trying to say in mentioning it. That to hear it firsthand, stories mean sometimes the world to people.

Nancy Norbeck [01:04:04]:
Yes.

Paul McGann [01:04:05]:
The difference between the power, the potency of them can be the difference between. They can save your morale, they can tip you that way instead of that way. You know what I mean? And I can only say that because I’ve talked to these people, I’ve seen it firsthand and it’s been an education aside from anything else. And I’d say a vindication has nothing to do with me. But again, it only increases the kind of, the sort of joy of doing this kind of thing because it’s all of a piece. What, what a thrill to have and a privilege, actually. And I mean that to have. To have landed in something, to be part of something, you know, that, that in fact can be a source of, you know, and, you know, before that’s serious territory.

Paul McGann [01:05:06]:
But for the most part, it’s just a hoot. You know, you go to the shows and the real spirit of the shows is the cosplay. It’s people dressing up. That’s what it is. It’s people dressing up in tin foil and shaking their toilet. It’s great. That’s it.

Nancy Norbeck [01:05:23]:
And some of the things that people do are amazing.

Paul McGann [01:05:26]:
I love it. You can go and show off, you know, I’ve been in. We were at one. There’s one show in New Zealand, I think it’s in Wellington. It’s not in Wellington. It’s in. Oh, God, I’ve got lockdown memory. Anyway, in one of the towns I was told about on the Saturday, you know, there’s a Friday, Saturday Sunday show.

Paul McGann [01:05:51]:
And on the Saturday, fully half of the town is there, including the dignitaries, probably there’s the mayor in his or her. And they all dress up, you know what I mean? And that’s what I mean. It’s just a hoot. It’s a hoot. And let’s not forget it’s meant to be a hoot.

Nancy Norbeck [01:06:11]:
Right.

Paul McGann [01:06:12]:
It’s meant to be a thrill. You know, you’re meant to laugh. It’s meant to be. That’s how it’s meant to be. But like I say, in combination with and trying to describe the experience from where the, like me would sit or wherever it is would be occasionally, you know, you’re. It’s also, you see this other side of it, this heartfelt side of it, which is kind of. Which is amazing. You know, that’s why we do it.

Paul McGann [01:06:41]:
That’s why we go back, and that’s why, you know, it’s. There we are.

Nancy Norbeck [01:06:45]:
Yeah, well, you know, at that. That first long island I had, I had a picture taken with you and Peter Davidson and Colin.

Paul McGann [01:06:54]:
Did I smile?

Nancy Norbeck [01:06:57]:
Actually, you looked very intense. You were ready to go beat bad guys in that picture.

Paul McGann [01:07:07]:
I’ve got two settings. It must have been a Friday.

Nancy Norbeck [01:07:13]:
It was Saturday, actually.

Paul McGann [01:07:14]:
But maybe it was the morning after my birthday.

Nancy Norbeck [01:07:18]:
But I did have to tell Peter Davidson that he got me through high school, which got quite the reaction from Colin Baker. He was like, he did? I’m like, no, no, I love you all, but really? But it was one of those things. It was like, yeah, this is my chance to say that, so I’m gonna say it. I might not ever get a chance again. And, you know, there were plenty of people waiting, so I didn’t go into detail.

Paul McGann [01:07:42]:
Quite right. Quite right.

Nancy Norbeck [01:07:44]:
Yeah, I mean, and it was when I started writing, you know, I started writing fanfiction before I knew what fan fiction was. And I put my best friend in it with me because that’s what you do when you’re 15. And, you know, I mean, I still. Right. So having. Having that other universe to play in, you know, gave me an escape from a whole lot of stuff when I was that age.

Paul McGann [01:08:09]:
So you see what we’ve started. I know, you know, and it ramifies and ramifies and, you know, and again, one of the joyous things, actually, about doctor who, particularly doctor who, is that most and probably the biggest reason that it’s endured is that fans have looked after it. Genuine fans ended up running the shows, writing the episodes right in Capaldi’s case and Tennant’s case, being in it, playing the Doctor in it. You know, these are serious fans. You know, that the fans themselves became.

Nancy Norbeck [01:08:51]:
The custodians of it, which is amazing to me in so many ways. I mean, I talked to Rob Shearman in the first episode of this podcast, and here’s this guy who’s just, like, writing stuff for fun, writing stuff for big finish, and then he writes one of the best episodes of the new series and there it is. And the same with Nick Briggs will forever be the voice of the Daleks because he started doing it, doing goofy fan videos, you know, 2030 years ago and, and then moving into big finish and, and actually, I should say for anybody who’s listening who’s not a total Doctor who geek, big finish does Doctor who audio plays and it started out as a bunch of geeky fans and now they have a legit business and they do amazing, amazing things. And if it weren’t for them, the 8th Doctor here would have been on tv once and never heard from again. But you actually, you’re the most ironic doctor because you’ve been on tv so little. But you had the book series and the comic series and now the big finnish stuff and for a while you were the longest reigning, even though you had been on tv the least.

Paul McGann [01:10:07]:
They call me the longest and the shortest. Yeah, for various reasons.

Nancy Norbeck [01:10:14]:
And then there was, and I hadn’t realized this, I guess probably until human nature and the family of blood aired with David Tennant and they had the retrospective with the illustrations in the journal and all of the previous doctors. And you were in there and there were people saying, see, he really does count. And I thought. You mean there was anybody who thought he didn’t.

Paul McGann [01:10:38]:
Oh, yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [01:10:39]:
I mean, I had not realized that at all. It was horrifying.

Paul McGann [01:10:42]:
Well, yeah, there was. What I’m here to tell you, there was, you know, after we, after the pilot failed, you know, it’s failed. It’s its only function. There wasn’t a series. There wasn’t a series made. And that was before anybody called it the movie. But, you know, those next. Of course, you still had a decade before doctor who came back on tv.

Paul McGann [01:11:08]:
2005, isn’t it so, you know, nine years. And in, in that time, it was easy to think that this iteration, this number eight, would probably go the way of Peter Cushing. You know, if this ever gets, if this ever resurfaces, they’ll just. Nobody will talk about that one because they wouldn’t have to. They’re just la la la. They just put their fingers in their ears and get on with it, you know. And that was a. I remember thinking, oh, well.

Paul McGann [01:11:49]:
And it was a mixed blessing in a way, because that’s okay. You know, when you work as an actor, some things work, some things don’t. You’re quickly doing something else. So that’s okay. One puts it down to experience, you know, my kids weren’t Canadians after all. You know, you’re just going you’re just within, within a few weeks you’re doing another thing. But yeah, when it did come back or when there was rumor that it was coming back, 2002 three, whatever, whatever. And then when it eventually arrived, I didn’t get a single approach.

Paul McGann [01:12:27]:
There was no phone call, nothing. I’m only saying that because had there been even a thought of including the 8th in the new thing, I would have been warned, primed, sounded out about as was natural, but nothing. So I thought, okay. And like I said, I’d assumed that it would go like that, that they would simply just bypass eight straight to something else and never mention him again. Unbeknownst to myself, Russell T. Davis was actually a great champion and was a huge advocate of the 8th doctor. And it was really under his aegis that. And I read, I soon was reading in, you know, in magazine articles or hearing that, you know, that he, he was making it explicit that they owed something to the, to the so called movie, you know, that without it, you know, so now that was gratifying.

Paul McGann [01:13:32]:
It didn’t mean I was ever going to be in it again, but it was gratifying to hear that he. And that’s really how it happened. And, you know, so you’re, and I’m only half joking. It could easily have been because they, and they needn’t have ever mentioned the Vancouver pilots ever. Like I say, any more than they seriously talk about Peter Cushing. There’s no need because they can, they can do with the methodology what they like. But gratifyingly and excitingly they turned up. And I remember as well, because the, you know, once Chris Eck and the thing got up and running again and there was tenant and, you know, Sydney now we’re into years in and the publicity pictures.

Paul McGann [01:14:26]:
I remember the first pictures and it was around that time that I started. First was persuaded to go to conventions and big finish started, I think, 2003, I think I was involved. And suddenly publicity photographs began to include the 8th doctor. Tentatively at first, you’d see a bit like that child who misses his school photograph and they include them, you know, he’s got a cold on the day kind of thing. And they include in a little cloud, you know, he would appear in the corner, you know, and there’s tenant, you know, doing handsome gurning in the middle. And, and then suddenly over the months and the years, the 8th was working his way to the center of the photograph, you know, I mean, I’m joking now, but, but that’s kind of. That’s how it. That’s how it happened.

Paul McGann [01:15:19]:
You know, suddenly, suddenly there’s the lineups, and there he is. You know, so it was a. So it took a while, but, you know, he. He’s back. You know, he was accepted. And the first phone call, the first approach that I ever received, so to speak, was when Stephen Moffat rang and we spoke and he said, look, and this is for the 50th. And he said, you want to do this six minute thing? And that was the first phone call I’d had in all those years.

Nancy Norbeck [01:15:58]:
Mm hmm.

Paul McGann [01:15:59]:
That was it. And so it came full circle. And I said, yeah, you know, I said, I said, james, this is literally on the phone. I said, well, send me a script. He said, I haven’t written it. I said, when do you want to do it? He said, next week. He said, you say, if you say yes, I’ll just. I’ll write it.

Paul McGann [01:16:25]:
And this is how showbiz works. Anyone that thinks, I know, you know, whatever you have Tom Hardy or whoever saying, oh, I did six months of prep for this. Nah, that’s not, you know, they’re living on Olympus, those actors. Most of us. It’s like, are you available? We’re starting on Tuesday. That’s how sugars worked. And that’s. So when we did night of the doctor, that’s how that took place in Sydney.

Paul McGann [01:16:48]:
And there he was, and I was back in the. Yeah. Deep joy.

Nancy Norbeck [01:16:52]:
Well, and you got to be a fabulous surprise with that, you know, right up there. You and Tom Baker were the great surprises that year.

Paul McGann [01:17:00]:
Well, we talked. We’re talking about. Because that was November, you know, again, it was around the Long island time that that aired on my birthday. Oh, right.

Nancy Norbeck [01:17:12]:
I forgot about that.

Paul McGann [01:17:13]:
It went out on the 14 November. So, of course, it should have gone out on the 26th, 2nd. But Stephen sent me a text. It was about. It was about 11:00 a.m. uK time. He said, look, he said, I’m forced. I have to put this out now.

Paul McGann [01:17:31]:
He said, because someone’s threatening to leak the thing. So he said, brace yourself. Happy birthday. And he put it out, which is great in a way, in one sense, because it meant that it had, if you will, it had a. It had a week to itself. It had a week clear. You know, there was. But it should have gone, of course, with, you know, like a red with the rest of the stuff on the 22nd or the 23rd.

Paul McGann [01:17:56]:
And. But by then it got two, 3 million YouTube hits. It had a clear run. So it became a, you know, a nice thing. Of course, celeb, you know, and it was a nice birthday present.

Nancy Norbeck [01:18:08]:
Yeah. And I think it’s better that it, you know, wasn’t in with everything else where it would have gotten lost. I can tell you that morning I was at work and I started getting texts from friends who said, you need to go watch this link. And I said, I’m at work. I can’t watch it right now. They said, no, no, you need to go watch this and you need to do it now. Sneak into the ladies room, whatever you have to do, just go watch it because I promise you, you don’t want to be spoiled. And so I did have a fairly secluded desk at that point, and my boss stepped out to go to a meeting, so there was nobody there.

Nancy Norbeck [01:18:49]:
And I pulled out my phone and my headphones and I turned it on and I watched it. And the funny thing was I had no idea what to expect. So it was like I recognized the voice, but I hadn’t connected it. And then there you were. And I literally stood up at my desk with my hands in the air where no one could see me. And I was like, oh, my God, of all the things that I expected, this was just not one of them. And I think I probably watched it three times before lunch. But.

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:15]:
But, yeah, it was. It was. We had managed such a fabulous surprise.

Paul McGann [01:19:19]:
To keep it secret.

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:21]:
Yeah. Which is amazing.

Paul McGann [01:19:22]:
It is amazing in the present era. Yeah, it is. You know, in the age of spoilers and which is, which is a spirit I just don’t get. I don’t understand it. I know it’s out there, but, you know, and the reason I don’t either. The reason that Moffat put it out is precisely because, you know, a week earlier is because of that. But up until that point, we’d kept it pretty much secret, which was quite satisfying, you know, and it was great for, you know, it was great all round, you know, and I thought you.

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:49]:
Finally got to regenerate.

Paul McGann [01:19:51]:
Finally we got the, you know, when you think like, Colin Baker’s never had one, you know, he’s about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is a higher up.

Nancy Norbeck [01:19:59]:
He did a good one for him, though. Big finish. Did do a good one with that.

Paul McGann [01:20:03]:
Yeah. Reveled in it.

Nancy Norbeck [01:20:07]:
Which isn’t really a great shot, considering, but yeah. And Tom Baker at the end of day of the doctor was also something I wasn’t expecting. So that, that got to me, too.

Paul McGann [01:20:17]:
But in fact, you know, when, now you’re making me remember because when, when I spoke with Stephen Moffat, I. We were in Australia. I was with Peter and Colin and McCoy, like some middle aged boy band. We were like four of us on doing these shows in Australia. And also, of course, we had been picking up shots and making Peter’s thing.

Nancy Norbeck [01:20:57]:
Yes. The five ish doctors were fantastic.

Paul McGann [01:21:00]:
Yeah. Which, of course, was predicated on the idea that, you know, none of us had been included in the fifties. And suddenly. And of course, and now Moffat’s on the phone to me going, okay, listen, we’ll do it, but don’t tell the others kind of thing because, you know, I had to swear to secrecy about, you know. So now I’m shooting the five ish doctors thing, which is all about, you know, as you remember.

Nancy Norbeck [01:21:23]:
Right.

Paul McGann [01:21:23]:
And yet I can’t tell them that I’m actually in the 50th and they’re not getting. But I think the reason that I got away with it was because none of us expected Tom. I think Tom’s crime. Right, Tom’s crime was a capital crime. Mine was just a. Was a minor misdemeanor. But, uh, how funny when you think, you know, but we were having to keep secrets from each other.

Nancy Norbeck [01:21:48]:
And yet it all worked out beautifully.

Paul McGann [01:21:50]:
It did.

Nancy Norbeck [01:21:51]:
I mean, it really, really did. And it did. And, you know, a lot of people were, including me, were especially excited that, you know, night of the doctor made all of your big finnish companions canon, as much as doctor who has a canon.

Paul McGann [01:22:06]:
What a good touch. What a nice touch. You know, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you know, rarely does one six minutes long it might have been, but I can tell you, in the years that I’ve worked, I’ve rarely worked on something so well written. And I mean that, because when you think what he managed to do to include in six minutes, right, the way it’s structured, there’s a crash. He finds that go, the Jess, is it? You find Jess.

Nancy Norbeck [01:22:37]:
Cass.

Paul McGann [01:22:37]:
Cass. What am I saying?

Nancy Norbeck [01:22:38]:
Yeah.

Paul McGann [01:22:40]:
Lockdown memory. And what’s mine, what day is it? You know, then Chrissy meets the sisters. He gets bored. He gets bored in the middle, you know, bring me knitting. Then there’s a regeneration. All in six minutes. All in six minutes, yeah. And you never feel that you’re being like it’s herring around.

Paul McGann [01:23:03]:
You never feel like it’s life. It’s just. It’s. It’s phenomenally clever. And I remember at the time when we did, or rather when we shot it in Cardiff, I think we took it. Took us a day or a day and a bit of the next morning and Stephen actually handing me a piece of paper with the with the list of names on it, you know, the, the companions name. I said, here, look here, say this. You know, and that’s how we were working.

Paul McGann [01:23:39]:
So the imports of it, I suppose it didn’t really occur to me at the time. It was only when I think I was driven away or the next day thinking about it, I think, oh, wow. Yeah, I see what he’s done, and I know people who are going to be very pleased about that.

Nancy Norbeck [01:23:54]:
Well, and especially in your case, because, you know, there are all of the 8th doctor books, but they’re just not the same as the audios. You know, when a friend of mine told me about them and she said, you’ve never heard of big finish? I said, no. And I went looking and I said, oh, wow. It was just this thing that I never thought we would get to experience was like we were saying before, you want the story? It was like, oh, look, he gets to have a story. I want to hear the story. And I’m kind of patchy all over the place with what I have and haven’t listened to over the last year.

Paul McGann [01:24:28]:
It’s funny you say about the books again, because it’s sometimes easy to forget, you know, that there are novels, you know, and I, again, I’m a sort of bookie person myself, you know, I love to read and, you know, say the novels as compared to the audios, you know, I like to think that. And there’s nothing wrong with this at all, that even in some elements, in some respects, these are like alternative histories, you know, whether it’s about this, this time war or that strand of whatever.

Nancy Norbeck [01:24:59]:
Yeah.

Paul McGann [01:25:00]:
You know, and there’s nothing wrong with that at all. You know, these are just, they’re not rival mythologies, but they’re right. But, and to me, they. They have equal say and equal importance. There you go. Let’s hear it for the books.

Nancy Norbeck [01:25:15]:
Oh, the books are great, and the comics are great, too.

Paul McGann [01:25:17]:
Yeah.

Nancy Norbeck [01:25:18]:
But it’s fun to have something that’s almost the tv show. And in many ways, you know, I think the audios are often better than the tv show just because you don’t have to worry about special effects, you could, you know, do whatever you want with them. And, and they are so well written, generally speaking.

Paul McGann [01:25:36]:
So I was thinking of that. It’s you, the listener, that supplies the special effects.

Nancy Norbeck [01:25:43]:
Right.

Paul McGann [01:25:45]:
To work in radio is astonishing. You know, it’s when it works, in fact, it can be the best thing to listen to. You’re doing the work. The world is as big as your imagination or it’s. It is what it is. And I remember Moffat saying, you know, that we were at a show, you know, describing his process and describing these episodes and, you know, making prophecies for the future and, you know, and he was talking about this kind of thing, you know, that often it’s the special effect sometimes, which, which can hold. He’s talking as a writer, speaking as a writer, you know, saying sometimes it’s the special effects that he doesn’t dig so much. It’s not like that.

Nancy Norbeck [01:26:34]:
Right.

Paul McGann [01:26:35]:
That’s just a special effect. You know, when he went. Whereas, you know, we, like, we were just like. I was just talking about the six minute thing that he wrote. It was. It was just beautifully fashioned. And he was writing and words and moving the story along anyway. And he was, you know, he was adamant about the.

Paul McGann [01:26:55]:
I remember him saying in a Q and A, you know, that he thought that perhaps the episodes, future tv episodes, because he was being asked about this should probably go back to being, or might benefit from being much shorter again. Go back to 25 minutes or 30 minutes like they used to be back in the day, you know, take out what’s now become actually a bit of filler, you know, that explosion, you know what I mean? Anyway, that’s another conversation. But, you know, for writers and for the likes of him, you know, I could see again going back to when we. The day that we worked on night of the doctor, he really enjoyed it. He loved seeing. And I remember Mark Gatiss was there as well, just in the room, you know, and they’re really good writers, those men, and you could see them really taking a real delight in that when writing works, you know, for its own ends.

Nancy Norbeck [01:28:01]:
Yeah. And it’s interesting that you say that with Stephen Moffat because when the show came back in 2005, I was really afraid that it was going to be all big budget special effects and it would lose the actual storytelling that had always made it work in spite of the fact that it had bargain basement special effects at best, back in the old days, the green bubble wrap and the wobbly sets and all of that. But the stories were so compelling that it didn’t matter and you were still scared and you would go hide behind the sofa and all that. And so I thought, oh, Lordy, you know, if they give it a real budget and it becomes all special effects, then there’s no point.

Paul McGann [01:28:39]:
And this, in a sense, was part of the. I remember thinking of the pilot we made in Canada. This formed part of the criticism of it, or at least the skepticism about it, that it would, oh, no, they’re going to ruin it. They’re going to spend loads of money on it. It’s going to be shiny and north american, you know, when in fact, you know what I mean? And I used to hear things like that, oh, no, what are they doing? You know, but it’s not meant to be, you know, on 35 mil and all shiny with this. That. Yeah. So you’re right, you know, that this has always been a, it’s been part of the, I won’t say the charm, it’s probably Hackney now.

Paul McGann [01:29:18]:
But, but it was part of, definitely part of what, you know, what drew people to it was, it was a little bit bargain basement, like you say, you know.

Nancy Norbeck [01:29:26]:
Yeah, but it worked in spite of it.

Paul McGann [01:29:29]:
Yeah, it worked because of it, I think.

Nancy Norbeck [01:29:31]:
Yeah. It’s always been the little show that could.

Paul McGann [01:29:33]:
Yeah. And also, you know, he’s only got a screwdriver, not a gun. You know, it is like, how are we going to get out of this? Aha. Well, you know, it’s make their own men. This is what it is.

Nancy Norbeck [01:29:46]:
That’s it for this week. Tune in next time for the second part of my conversation with Paul McGann, where, among other things, we talk about recording audio plays, Richard E. Grant and why Paul left social media. In the meantime, check out the show notes at fycuriosity.com and come discuss the episode with us on Instagram @ fycuriosity. And as always, if you enjoyed this episode, please do share it with a friend. Thanks so much. You can find show notes, the six creative beliefs that are screwing you up, and more at fycuriosity.com. I’d also love for you to join the conversation on Instagram.

Nancy Norbeck [01:30:21]:
You’ll find me @fycuriosity. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDague. If you like Follow Your Curiosity. Please subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners. See you next time.