It’s no secret that a lot of creative people absolutely love doing their creative work, but seize up at the idea of selling it. I invited Annie P. Ruggles, also known simply as Annie P., to the podcast to share why selling doesn’t have to be evil, and how to get around our fears and worries involving selling creative work. Annie, a former theater kid, now runs the Non-Sleazy Sales Academy, which aims to help those of us who are marketing and sales averse get our work into the world in an ethical way we can feel good about. We talk about the myth that arts and humanities degrees are worthless, why selling—and buying—are things we all do all the time, how to price creative work, how to avoid falling into the trap of creating solely to make money, and more.
Show links
Annie’s website
Annie on Facebook
Annie on Instagram
Annie on YouTube
Annie on LinkedIn
Annie’s podcast, Too Legitimate to Quit
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Transcript
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity, where we explore the inner workings of the creative process. I’m your host, Nancy Norbeck. It’s no secret that a lot of creative people absolutely love doing their creative work, but seize up at the idea of selling it. I invited Annie P. Ruggles, also known simply as Annie P., to the podcast to share why selling doesn’t have to be evil and how to get around our fears and worries involving selling creative work. Annie, a former theater kid, now runs the Non Sleazy Sales Academy, Academy, which aims to help those of us who are marketing and sales averse get our work into the world in an ethical way we can feel good about. We talk about the myth that arts and humanities degrees are worthless, why selling and buying are things we do all the time, How to price creative work, how to avoid falling into the trap of creating solely to make money, and more. Here’s my conversation with Annie P. Ruggles. Annie P., welcome to Follow Your Curiosity.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:01:12]:
Thank you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:14]:
I I am really looking forward to this conversation because I think it’s gonna be an important conversation. But before we get to the reason, the specific reason that I asked you here on top of the fact that you’re awesome, the question that I usually start everybody out with is, were you a creative kid, or was it something you discovered later in your life? And you can define creative however you want.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:01:39]:
I think I was definitely in the category of creative kid, and I think being an only child helped because if I wasn’t a creative kid, what what would I have done? You know what I mean? I I didn’t have anyone being like, let’s go outside and pretend that the yard is a jungle. Let’s, you know, try to jump off the roof. I don’t know. I didn’t have any other outside force. And so if I wanted to have a good time, I had to make my own good time. If I wanted to escape, I had to make my own escape. So yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:18]:
Fair enough. Mom and dad encouraged all of that, or were they just kinda hands off and
Annie P. Ruggles [00:02:23]:
I mean, I don’t think so. Roof jumping was something on their agenda, nor do I know that that’s the example that, like, came out of my mouth first. Whoops. No. But, you know, my parents are are lovers of art, and I’m lucky that I also live with my grandparents growing up. And my grandma could eat a book in one bite. Magnificent. I don’t know how she did it, but, dang, she would just unhook her brain and shove the book in.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:02:54]:
And and so I saw that as well too as as there are so many possibilities out there because, you know, my dad was always listening to music, or my mom was watching great shows or taking me with her on the road. My grandma was always reading. So I think once I got to the point where I was making my own taste in things and I was tinkering and crafting and putting on little plays and stuff like that. I think they were pretty much just like, well, we couldn’t stop her if we tried, so we may as well build her stage, which is what they did.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:32]:
But see, that is a level of of dedication and encouragement that is rare but amazing.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:03:39]:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The whole family was involved. My grandma made all the costumes. My grandpa built the set. My dad, hung the lights, and my mom taught me every musical imaginable. So it was it was perfect. Family affair.
Nancy Norbeck [00:03:55]:
That is so fantastic. Seriously, it is.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:04:00]:
That’s forward to 18. I’m like, hey. I wanna go to art school. And my parents were like, yeah. We know. You know? And they’re looking at each other, and they’re like, well, we shouldn’t have built her that damn state. No. I’m kidding.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:04:17]:
They didn’t. They were very supportive. Even then, when I did pursue and receive a degree in musical theater performance. So yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:28]:
I I mean, there’s a whole side conversation that we could have about that based on a discussion that I saw online today, if discussion is even a worthy enough term for it or if if it’s worthy of the term about how, you know, if you tell your kids to go major in useless things like musical theater, then it’s your fault when they don’t make any money because there’s no way to make any money at musical theater and blah blah blah blah blah. And I had so many things I wanted to say about that.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:05:01]:
Tough way to have no faith in the talent of your children. Right. Like, there are lots of people that make really good money in musical theater, and everybody else figures it out.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:12]:
And that was the argument of the original post was you know, people who are passionate about what they do will figure out a way to make money at it. Yes. You know? And and this was lots of people chiming in and saying, that’s a totally irresponsible way to be with your kids. And I was like, I have to walk away from this now.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:05:29]:
Okay. So you put your kid in a and and okay. My dad is a perfect example. My dad was of the generation where he was gonna be, like, the first person other than one uncle to go to college. And then my dad’s Italian American upbringing and everything else, especially back then, you emulate the uncle. Right? Uncle Mel, the golden standard. And so uncle Mel went to school for engineering. So my grandpa looked at my dad and said, you’re going to school for engineering.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:06:01]:
My dad freaking hated engineering. He got out of there. I mean, he retired, but he put in his freaking time, He was miserable the whole time. So, sure, by all means, put your kid in a track that they hated. I’m not judging my grandpa. That’s how things were done back then. Right? But I’d like to think that we’d advanced a bit since the 19 sixties, 19 seventies and are capable of making more elaborate decisions, especially because now we have all of these stats about how the average person will change professions a 1000000000 times. So let your kid go and get their musical theater degree.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:06:38]:
They’ll learn a whole lot about hustle that other kids getting English degrees won’t get.
Nancy Norbeck [00:06:45]:
Right. Right. And it’s also, you know, running around saying, well, you can’t make any money at that. You shouldn’t do it. Just is participating in the devaluing of whatever that particular field is, whether it’s writing or music or whatever.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:07:04]:
And why don’t we pay our artists better? That’s a different Annie for a different day.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:07]:
Yes. Absolutely. But
Annie P. Ruggles [00:07:10]:
all of my friends are gainfully employed. Are all of us on Broadway? No. Are a handful of us professionally performing and making a living that way? Yeah. Did the rest of us figure it out? Yeah. And within that, are some of us doing really cool things and making really good money doing really cool things that are theater adjacent? You betcha.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:31]:
Yep.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:07:32]:
You betcha.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:35]:
Yep. And also, you know, if you don’t major in that stuff when you’re in college, you might not ever get a chance to do it again.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:07:45]:
No.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:46]:
You know, I mean, I think college is like a great playground. It’s a great place to go and figure out. Oh, hey. I took an engineering class. I hated it. I almost failed. Obviously, not for me. So I’m gonna go take something else and see if that’s better.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:01]:
You know? Not that, ideally, you wouldn’t have at least some vague direction that you know you’re aiming in by the time you get there. But, still, you know, for a year or so, try stuff out. Go join it to your company. And if you hate it, you know you don’t wanna do that again. And, you know Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:08:21]:
Sometimes I feel like, sometimes I feel like I should go back and get an advanced degree in something really practical, like accounting or business or, you know, something. And I go down the rabbit hole, and I start looking. And, before too long, I wind up being like, yes. I’m going back to school for Gaelic, and everyone around me is like, how have you gone even further away from musical theater? Right? So I’m always like, oh, Irish American history. Oh, Gaelic. Oh, musical theater, but musical theater history. Like, people are like, Annie. Hey.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:09:08]:
Stop. Stop. Like, they’re not trophies. They’re degrees. They cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. And what on earth am I planning to do with a master’s in Calyc? I don’t know. So I’m not currently pursuing 1. But the temptation has been there, and it will rise again.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:09:30]:
I know myself. It will come again.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:31]:
And ladies and gentlemen, now you know why Annie p and I get along so well. Yep.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:09:37]:
Yep.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:38]:
We are so cut from the same cloth that way. It’s crazy. Well, before we end up plotting our next 17 podcasts for another day, speaking of making money, how did you get from a degree in musical theater to being the Doyin of how to sell stuff without feeling scummy about it.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:10:02]:
Thank you for using the word Doyenne for almost. Like, you were just saying, like, to everybody, oh, we’re cut from the same I mean, yes. We’re cut from the same vocabulary for Jerseys. Alright. How does a kid with a musical theater degree wind up here? Theater marketing. I live in Chicago. It is magic. We have more theaters per capita than anywhere else in the US, take that.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:10:27]:
New York City, we do. But I needed a job in I almost said high school. I needed a job. It feels that long ago. I needed a job in college, and a bunch of my friends worked at Broadway in Chicago who run the big touring companies and our huge sit down Broadway productions. And I was their receptionist. And then they liked me. So they were like, let’s do quirky stuff with Annie.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:10:53]:
Like, make her host the Wicked singing contest where children sing the same 8 bars of popular for hours on end, and I had to, like, wrangle that. And it was a lot of fun and quirky and weird, and I could have done that job forever because it was just, like, crowd control and and making kids happy and doing fun stuff and hosting spelling bees with the cast of 25th Annie Putnam County spelling bee and fun stuff like that. So I thought I was just gonna do that forever, like, receptionist who acts at night, who occasionally does these weird quirky things. No. They had other plans. The current, at the time, marketing assistant quit in, like, a miserable fit, quit. And Broadway in Chicago really only inside hires, and so they needed a marketing assistant pronto, and they were like, her. She’s already proven that she’ll do exactly what we want her to do and not ask for very much money.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:11:57]:
Perfect. And I went to work with no training. The next day I was working on ad stuff for Wicked and Jersey Boys and all these huge shows. I was completely out of my element. I was freaking miserable. I used to drink Chipotle Margaritas in the storage closet so that I wouldn’t cry. Like, it was bad. But all along the way, I had to learn marketing in a hurry.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:12:24]:
Huge giant marketing. Big how the sausages made billionaire marketing. And I’m grateful for that because it really was a masters of trauma and how to handle it, but also a really good marketing education that I got in a hurry and that I was paid to receive. So then I thought, okay. I’m working for the man of theater. Yes. They are kind of the man. I love them, but they are kind of the man.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:12:53]:
I’m working for the man. How can I give back? How can I also do stuff that I care about? And I thought, well, I’m learning all of these big theater marketing hacks. I may as well go teach them to the teeny weeny theaters all over Chicago that my friends and I are doing shows in so that people can see our dang shows, and we can make some money at theater. And so I went from big theater marketing to small theater marketing. And once I got out of the Broadway in Chicago, I thought, you know, a lot of small businesses operate like small theaters. There might be something else here. So then I did marketing and branding for super small businesses, mom and pop shops, and solopreneurs for about a decade. Nobody was making any money because nobody was willing to sell in a way that felt good to them because they didn’t know how.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:13:41]:
I didn’t know that they were modeling me. I wasn’t selling. We were all making a bunch of big, beautiful, shiny marketing for coaches and service providers. And then it occurred to me that nobody was selling, and I had to figure that out. So I once I started falling in love with selling, I started teaching it on the side almost as penance to my clients who had been with me for the marketing stuff like, hey. Your marketing was gorgeous. Look. Can we make some money now? Can we try? And they did.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:14:09]:
And so I thought, you know, there’s a lot of people in the marketing and branding space. There are fewer of us in the ethical sales space. There are very, very, very few Muppet esque mes in the sales space. Let’s come hang out over here, and so I did. And that was 2019, so 3 years ago now since the pivot. So that’s how a kid with a musical theater degree through the Wicked singing contest has wound up teaching sales to, pre 6 and early 6 figure businesses.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:46]:
That’s awesome.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:14:48]:
Mic drop.
Nancy Norbeck [00:14:51]:
Because you’re right. There are not you know, everybody will teach you marketing, but marketing is not the same thing as selling. Right. And, you know, and and there are so many people who get hung up on not wanting to market because they feel like it’s scummy and evil, and it doesn’t feel good, and yuck, and I don’t want to. I know I have to, but I don’t want to. And that’s bad enough. And then when you say, okay, but, you know, this flyer, this ad, this whatever is beautiful, but you still have to sell it because the ad is not necessarily going to do all of the work for you. Then those people, especially the, you know, right brained creative people who just wanna go make their awesome stuff, it’s like sprinkling salt on a slug.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:39]:
You know? They just kind of, like, shrivel, and I say this from experience, because I’m one of these people. You know? You you just kind of feel your whole body constrict. You’re like, oh,
Annie P. Ruggles [00:15:48]:
oh, god.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:49]:
Do I have to?
Annie P. Ruggles [00:15:50]:
Yes. You do have to.
Nancy Norbeck [00:15:52]:
You do. Which which is why I wanted to have you come and talk to all of our lovely creative folks about why selling is not evil or to put it put a better way. It doesn’t have to be evil.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:16:09]:
Right. Right. So look at it this way, creatives. A lot of you identify as artists, I’m sure, and artists manipulate on multiple fronts. Okay? Sculptors manipulate their medium. Painters manipulate pain. Actors manipulate words and emotions. Right? Artists create to evoke reaction.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:16:39]:
It’s not just saying that artists for the viewer blah blah blah blah blah. Don’t at me. What I’m saying is there is a give and take response between art and consumer, between art and audience. Right? And we want them to feel or do or think. Selling is the exact same thing. Right? So if you are a writer and you’re writing a cliffhanger and you want your reader to be flying through the pages and then going back because they missed something and then flying back and they’re even more excited the second time, you are writing that book in a manipulative way that fosters the emotion and the chemicals needed to get them to turn those pages. Now what you’re not doing is sitting there going, my stupid readers, they’re not gonna know what hit them, the sheep. They’re gonna turn this page and got them.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:17:38]:
No. Right? You’re not doing that. If I’m up on stage singing my heart out some, you know, lame, miserable death belt, and the audience is crying, I’m not gonna stand up from the dead and go, gotcha. But if you’re at a production of Les Mis and Fontaine just croaked and no one in the audience is crying, That actor probably didn’t do her job very well. Right? Similarly, in sales, we are empowering people to make a decision, the decision to invest in us and with us or not. And there’s emotion and thought that goes into that, and selling beautifully does guide people through feeling certain things. But, again, it’s with great intent where sleazy selling comes in is when we say, I’m gonna manipulate you, your thoughts, your emotions, and your actions for my own gain no matter what you want or need. All non sleazy selling does is say, I’m gonna lead you through a process of feeling, thinking, and doing so that you can make a decision.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:18:53]:
And if it’s right for you, I will help you ultimately make that decision if we both agree that we’re a fit. That’s it. We take a play we take away no matter what they want, and we add if only they want, and that’s it. Right? But that’s one of the main areas I see. Another area I see is that, yes, selling something that you made with your blood and your sweat and your tears and opening it up for criticism is weird. Okay? Mhmm. Criticism is harder than selling. Criticism you are sending to someone and saying, please use your magnificent brain and either validate me or poke holes in this thing until I feel like I should have put in, shouldn’t have put it out in the first place.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:19:47]:
Critics are paid to be discerning and brutal and to get people to listen to them. The people you’re selling to are generally not critics. They’re people in need. And that need might be, I have a blank wall above my sofa and this room is boring me to death, and that need might be, my child with autism really only ever writes, and I don’t know how to access his world or what he’s thinking. I don’t know how to connect with him in this way. Or the problem may be, I have this really incredible program, but it feels too precious to put a price tag on it. Whatever that is, you’re solving a problem. It’s weird because it’s of you.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:20:32]:
Right? But Adele gets paid to sing. We aspire to that. We all also have this starving artist mentality, like, oh, well, Van Gogh didn’t sell the painting until after he died. Yes. He also cut off his ear and mailed it to a prostitute. I don’t want you to do that either, y’all.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:51]:
Yeah. That’s not that’s not your best move.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:20:54]:
Charge and receive. It’s challenging, but it’s a muscle. Does that make sense?
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:59]:
It does make sense. It does make sense. But I Annie also hear somebody thinking about Van Gogh saying, well, yeah, he never sold anything, but isn’t that why his art is so great? Because it was all his art that he just, like, made for him, and therefore, you know, he didn’t know how great it was, but it was pure or it was you know, people throw weird words like pure around with things like art.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:21:26]:
How many layers of separation could there possibly be between pure and sellout? So Annie. So freaking many. And don’t even get me to, well, if you had done commercial art, you know who did commercial art? Same period, Toulouse Lautrec. You know where those commercial arts are now? Hanging in museums. Yep. A lot of what he painted were billboards. That’s commercial art. You could call him a sellout.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:21:53]:
I dare you to try it. Right? Yep. But why do we think that consumption is corruptible? If you want your art to be completely pure, you’d have to hide it under your bed and never let anybody see it. Right? And and all of those people had outside outside influence and all of them had needs. He may have not sold paintings, but he sold his brother and sister-in-law on financially supporting him. He had patrons who would give him canvases and materials. He had models who believed in his art. So, no, maybe he sold one painting at full painting price back then, but he did a hell of a lot of selling by showing up authentically and not shying away from the fact that he was doing his work.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:22:41]:
So I’d argue that he was a phenomenal salesman. He just didn’t make much money.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:48]:
That is such an interesting thing to say because we all think that being a phenomenal salesperson equals making lots of money.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:22:57]:
Mhmm. But that’s because they’re looking at it as cash collected, which it is. That’s the goal of sales is profit. Right? Revenue. Yay. But so many of us are selling all the time. Performing artists, if you are auditioning, you are selling yourself quite literally. Pick me, not them.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:18]:
Mhmm.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:23:19]:
Right? If you are a director, same thing. They wanna do another production of King and I. You have a million new ideas for a fresher version, pick me, not them. If you are a theater company and you’re going for funding or you’re trying to get press to come to a busy opening night, come to our show, not their show. It I keep using those examples that are me not them, not to show that it’s differentiating, but to show you’re advocating for yourself all the time.
Nancy Norbeck [00:23:53]:
Right. And and also, you know, when you say yes, making profit is is the ultimate Annie. It is. But at the same time, it’s, it’s the exchange, you know, it’s like my Annie, if I’m selling a coaching package is not, I’m gonna take all your money and give you nothing for it. My plan is I really want to work with you. You know, you are really cool. I want to work with you. I want to help you figure out what your creative dream is or get it back on track or wherever you are in that process and help you do the awesome thing that you want to do.
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:32]:
Because that is an incredibly incredibly exciting joyful thing for me to be able to do, but I also have to pay my rent.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:24:44]:
Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:24:44]:
Right? I I mean, it’s it’s that exchange. I’ve heard, you know, money discussed, you know, talked about as like an exchange of energy and that sounds so woo woo airy fairy, but it’s also It’s true. True. Yeah. Right? I mean, you go to your day job and they pay you money to do the things that you do so that you can have a roof over your head and go to the grocery store and afford your Netflix subscription or whatever else you do with that money. It’s it’s the same thing.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:25:11]:
It’s the same dang thing. Right? I mean, listen. I am the crunchiest, hippiest, most probably socialist little muppet in the world. If we could go back to the barter system, I would in a second. But I tried to run a business on barter, and here’s what happens. You wind up with a whole bunch of stuff you don’t want. Not that it’s not cool. I have so many friends, so luckily, so grateful for them that are extremely talented visual artists.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:25:47]:
Unbelievable stuff. Love their stuff. I can’t work with them all on trade. I don’t have enough wall space.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:54]:
Right.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:25:56]:
Right? And here’s the difference. If we were trading wall space for wall space on things that we had already created, then maybe it’d be different. You give me something from your archives. I give you something from my archives. And, eventually, when we get a bigger wall, we’ll put it up together. I have to show up for my money in the now. Mhmm. If I’m teaching someone, I’m teaching someone.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:26:17]:
Even if they’re buying a program of mine, there’s customer service attached, there’s group calls. Right? I am showing up. So even if I’m getting a painting that they did 3 years ago or a new painting, then I’m trading time for time. How do you mark that? Well, the going rate on this painting is this, but I’ll do it by hour. It’s just it’s too hard to negotiate. It’s too weird, and it also gets really chaotic because what if you have 2 friends who are both accountants? You really only need one accountant. Mhmm. Right? So it would be amazing to get paid in little tiny baby goats, but I can’t pay my mortgage in little tiny baby goats, nor do I want to send little baby goats to Chase Bank because lord knows what that soulless institution would do to those sweet baby goats.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:27:05]:
Right? So as much as I wish I could collect currency in adorableness, I can’t.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:12]:
I gotta tell you, you have a a very good point about what Chase would probably do with baby goats, but the image of a Chase Bank flooded with baby goats is pretty hilarious.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:27:23]:
It’s magnificent, and I wish it could happen. But for right now
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:28]:
Right.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:27:28]:
I take, you know, USD, CAD, AUD, and the almighty euro. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:37]:
Right. Well, and and you kind of have leaned into a little bit the idea of like figuring out what what you charge for something.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:27:47]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:48]:
Right? I mean, if I am a painter, how do I figure out what my painting is worth? How do I, you know? Right? Yep. It’s a hard question.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:27:59]:
Yes.
Nancy Norbeck [00:27:59]:
And a lot of people, like, feel so guilty about taking anything for something that they made too.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:28:06]:
Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:28:06]:
That, you know, I mean, that factors into it. You know, how do you have any words of wisdom for the creative person who’s sitting with, you know, 80 3 paintings that they haven’t sold yet because in part, they haven’t figured out how much to sell them for.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:28:22]:
So first and foremost, let’s look at how to get yourself to charge, and then we’ll look at what to charge. Right? Mhmm. So if that’s you, if you’re sitting there and you’re like, I could never sell my precious babies. Fine. We’re all there. We’ve all been there. It’s fine. I’m not judging you.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:28:40]:
However, right now, actually do this. I want you to think of a time when you purchased someone else’s creative work. Large scale, small scale, 1st degree, 2nd degree. I don’t care if it’s, you know, you bought Kelly Clarkson on mp3 or if you went to a small, you know, saw Zoe Keating at the Old Town School of Folk Music or bought a giant poster direct from an artist or bought something off of Etsy. I I don’t care. Right? But just think of the last time that you paid someone for their creative work. Probably more recently than you think if you purchased a book, music, a ticket to anything, if you’ve, upgraded your cable. You’re paying for someone’s creative labor.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:29:31]:
Notice how you had no emotional reaction other than excitement to that. A lot of time what happens when we’re selling art is we start to feel really anxious, and we assume that the buyer is anxious too. When we go to buy something we love, if the price point is not our price point, that stings a little, and then we have to self negotiate. But what we don’t do is judge the artist. Mhmm. We don’t go, oh my gosh. How dare they? We go, wow. That’s expensive for a t shirt.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:30:04]:
Wish I could afford it. Can’t afford it. That’s the worst reaction that you’re gonna get, everybody. We invent reactions way worse than that all the time. So first and foremost, notice a time that you paid for someone’s creative work of love, and notice how they didn’t make a big weird deal about it. It can be done. Positive modeling. Right? Now that being said, how did they do it right? If you were at an art fair, if you were at a festival and you went up and interface the artist, how did they talk about their art? How did they display their pricing? Did they explain their pricing? Did you haggle? Did you want to? Right? If you found them on Etsy, how did you find them? Where did you find them? If you if it was a book, where did you why did you get that book? Did you see something with the author? Did you read the blurb? Did it come out in a list you trust? Why was there no pomp and circumstance? Why did you just say yes? 1st and foremost.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:31:07]:
Right? A lot of time that story, sometimes it’s detail. It varies per person, but you have consumed and purchased art. You have consumed and purchased other people’s creativity with extreme joy. You are no different. Why couldn’t people purchase your creativity with extreme joy? They can. They will if you get out of your way and let them do it. Right? Now how do we price this thing? That is incredibly hard. For things like books and music, there is sort of a going rate range.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:31:43]:
Get out there and get your competitive analysis on. Not that there aren’t gonna be outliers. There are hardcover books that are 100 of dollars that are more like textbooks, and there are ebooks that are free. Right? There’s a range, but look at the closest to an apples to apples comparison as you can for something that has more of a set price point, like books, like CDs CDs. However, we’re selling music these days. Right? Theater tickets, live event tickets, similarly. There’s an expected price range. Get in there and see what that looks like.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:32:17]:
Now fine art and services are very different because, you know, a painting down the street, a little kid’s truck doodling is worth 50¢, and if Banksy did it, it’s worth 4,000,000. Right? So how do we price in that way? Well, we look at the good old economic supply and demand. We look at how long it takes you. We look at how how much emotional labor or effort you put into those hours, how challenging were those hours, your cost of materials, some competitive analysis. Right? You’re like, okay. Well, it’s a pack of greeting cards. How much could that be? You might think it’s a dollar. Go on Etsy.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:33:03]:
There’s packs of greeting cards there for $50. Right? Make sure you’re not undercharging. But at the same point, look at how many hours went into making the thing, and I’m including originals for reprints. Right? Don’t just say, oh, the reprint is, you know, I I take it to FedEx Annie and it takes me an hour, so I’ll charge a dollar. It’s piece of your creativity. How long did the original piece create or take to create? Right? Annie von Furstenberg only invented the wrap dress once. Okay? She still charges top dollar for every subsequent iteration of that dress because you’re char, you’re paying for the outcome you’re paying for the product, right? So do your competitive Annie, see what else is out there. Look at your own labor and materials.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:33:56]:
And then the best way to see if you’re pricing something is put it in front of your buyer and see how they respond to it. Same thing. $35 feels like a whole lot for a t shirt to me. But if I put it out and the rack clears out, then maybe it’s a great price. Mhmm. If I put the rack of $35 t shirts out and everyone goes, oh, man. When they look at the price tag and walks away, then I know something. Then I know 35 is on the high end.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:34:26]:
Maybe I need to earn that price point if that’s where I really wanna be. Or or if it has to be a $35 T shirt because it’s an artisanal T shirt hand screen printed by me with an original design, and it comes with a video series of bloody, bloody, bloody, blah. So it has to be a $35 t shirt, then find an audience where that whole package will be welcomed and where people want things at
Nancy Norbeck [00:34:52]:
a more premium price, because that exists too. I feel like finding and knowing your audience is such an overlooked part of anything creative, not just selling stuff, but also I mean, I’ve said this on this show before. You know? But, like, if you’re writing a horror novel and you want somebody’s feedback on it, don’t give it to your friend who only reads Nora Roberts’ books.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:35:18]:
Oh, my god.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:19]:
Because they’re not your audience, and they’re not gonna like it. And they’re gonna make you think that you wrote the world’s worst book when a horror fan might think it’s great. Yes. And I feel like there’s a lot of overlap with that with what you just said, you know, like, you need to know, like, who this is for.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:35:35]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:36]:
In order to, you know, get anywhere in terms of making any money with it.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:35:43]:
My best friends and family, with the exception of my dear sainted father, do not listen to my podcast. It’s not for them. And at the beginning of my podcast, I was pretty hurt about that. I was like, why doesn’t anybody wanna support me? They’re not business owners. They don’t care as much about pop culture. And so for them, it’s it’s not a fit.
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:07]:
Right.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:36:08]:
That happens too. Right? So, yeah, by all means, if you’re writing a horror, don’t give it to your little weenie friend and say, hey. What do you think of this? The you’re not gonna get the results you want. I see this all the time with people also going to advisors that are outside their avatar. There’s there’s the difference between looking for buyer validation or or what you need in order to make something more appealing. Also, though, at the same point, there’s something about going to people outside and getting your blind spots filled, but that’s normally much later in the process. So my horror book is already written. I’ve sent it out to horror Ruggles.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:36:52]:
It’s launched, but now I’m coming up on the year anniversary, and I’m like, well, maybe this has a wider appeal. I’ll send it to my friend who’s a total weenie and see what she says about it. Let’s see if it’s a weenie friendly book, and then I could do a whole campaign that says if Georgette likes it, it must not be that scary. Right? There are reasons to fill in gaps and and look for blind spots. But it’s not in your pricing. And it’s really not in your positioning. At least not round 1, 2, or 3.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:27]:
You know, this is so interesting because I it’s I I’m flashing back to where we started, you know, talking about all of these people who are, like, it’s parental malpractice to send your kid off to school to get a degree in musical theater because they’ll never make any money. And I’m just curious, like, where have you seen people defy that and turn, you know, in some unexpected way that’s not landing a starring role on Broadway? Mhmm. And and actually showing that, yeah, you know, there were other ways to take something like a theater degree and make money at it. And it’s not all about being a doctor, lawyer, or engineer if you wanna actually keep a roof over your head.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:38:08]:
Oh my gosh. Alright. Theater kids doing cool things. The sky’s the limit. Last week, I interviewed a really incredible guy named Ron Ben Joseph. Ron Ben Joseph is a speaking coach for women entrepreneurs and executives. And he has this really great comedy background. And so instead of being like a super polished platform speaker, he’s really helping these high domain expertise women really just get their point across in a lovely, relatable, brilliant positioning way.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:38:44]:
Scott, a theater degree just like me. A lot of us go into product positioning. A lot of us go into sales. We make incredible assistants, and then we learn the business, and we get promoted from within. I have had friends that have been the assistant right hand of Tony award winning playwrights because they understand the business. I’ve seen people that are on the acting side, right place, direct place, launch their own theater companies, launch nonprofits that connect kids to theater. I mean, it’s so so many options. So, I mean, that’s just off the top of my head.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:39:27]:
So many. So I mean, they’re all my friend Rose was here directing an opera. And my friend Annie came in to do movement and intimacy coordination, right? Like, there’s all of these other things that go into making art as well. There’s a theatricality to marketing. That’s awesome. For theater kids. There’s PR is 1 giant razzle dazzle, put a theater kit in there. My gosh, customer service, you need a theater kit.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:39:58]:
You need someone who can hold it down when the customer’s being crazy and then really lay into it when they need to be sheared up. Right? A lot of us are finding ways to make art on the side or still professionally. A lot of us turned to podcasting. Imagine that.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:16]:
What a coincidence. Right? Yeah. I mean, I I feel like I, I, I feel like this is the other podcast you and I need to do is the, what other thing can you do with that supposedly useless arts and humanities degree? Because it it gets such a bad rap. And you’re like like, as soon as you started talking about, you know, speaking coach, it was like, obviously, obviously, how you know, there were so many transferable skills in all of these things and we write them off and it ticks me off.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:40:47]:
There’s this great, speaking of musical theater, there’s this great song from the musical Avenue Q called what do you do with a BA in English? And it goes, what do you do with a BA in English? What is my life meant to be? 4 years of college, and I’ve got no knowledge that’s brought me this useless degree. Can’t pay my bills yet because I have no skills yet. The world is a big scary place, and it goes on. Can’t pay my bills yet because I have no skills yet is because you’re 22, not because you have a theater degree or a BA in English. Right? It’s you tell me that your brand new baby doctor is out there living in supreme life skills. No. The future doctors and lawyers of America are getting drunk in Wrigleyville. I know because I can hear them.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:41:41]:
Right? So, you know, it’s not like we all come out fully formed making great decisions. But at least if you let your kid pursue something they’re passionate about, they’ll learn how to leverage that passion.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think they’ll appreciate it and others a whole lot more. There’s nothing like the resentment of watching somebody else do the thing that you always wanted to do, but we’re told that you couldn’t do. And that that kind of envy and jealousy is a sure sign that there’s a part of you that wants to go do that thing. And, you know, maybe it’s not your purpose, but you at least wanna play with it and try it out and see how it goes. And, and so many people never get the chance to do that because they refuses to
Annie P. Ruggles [00:42:33]:
refuses to ask for money. Right.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:36]:
And this also is bringing to mind, I got into a very weird conversation on TikTok last year because I posted a video of with that was just the general tip of, hey, yeah, it’s cool to make money with your stuff, but don’t make it for the express purpose of making money. Make it because you wanna make it because otherwise, you’re probably not gonna produce anything that anyone particularly likes, including you. Yeah. You know, it becomes really cynical and it eats away at the whole heart of what you’re trying to do. And I had one very persistent commenter who was saying that that was incredibly privileged and that people need to pay their rent. And I’m like, I’m not saying don’t pay your rent. I’m saying, you know, work on your creative stuff until you’re at a point where you feel like you can sell it. Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:43:35]:
And then sell it, but don’t make it for the express purpose of selling it. And and the the whole nuance just got completely lost in a way I really didn’t expect and, you know, was kind of like, how because this person kept saying, but that’s not what you said. I’m like, I didn’t say, you know, don’t sell things, and it’s bad to make money from your art, and you should live, you know, in the back of your Annie.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:44:04]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:04]:
It’s a different thing, you know, you may need to do something else until you get to the point where you feel like you’re ready to sell your work, and you’ve figured out who you are as an artist or a creative person and what you wanna put into the world. Yep. But I think we get really screwed up if we focus first on the selling rather than what is it that I wanna make today, what is it Right. Calling to come into the world through me? I think that that’s really vital.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:44:33]:
Let me show you what that looks like in practice. What comes up for me when you talk about that and this lovely TikTok commenter.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:45]:
I still remember her name.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:44:47]:
Like, so, yes, you do need to pay your rent. Right? But so a couple of months ago, I was lucky enough to go to Fan Expo Chicago, which is Chicago’s Comic Con. And I interviewed 14 artists on the artist alley Annie expo floor about pieces of pop culture that inspired their work and their business. And it was amazing because if I saw 1 stormtrooper, I saw 57,000 stormtroopers, but none of them were the same. Mhmm. None of them were the same. They all had their own spin on everything. And I was asking these artists to give other artists advice, and they’re saying, bring your best stuff, bring you go ahead and do it.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:45:30]:
They were all welcoming, welcoming, welcoming. Come on. Let’s go. There’s room for you. You know, just don’t bring, recycling of somebody else’s stuff. And I was thinking about, well, what do you mean by a recycling of somebody stuff? And they said, well, anybody can do variations on a theme. That’s not recycling. Recycling is when your heart’s not in it.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:45:50]:
And I thought about that, and every single one of those 14 people either told me in the interview or told me off mic the kind of art that they don’t make. And most of them told me, well, a lot of people have asked me to blah blah blah, but I don’t blah blah blah. What’s coming to mind right now is Drew blank. Drew blank is this amazing guy. He’s got this great art style called real no. Fake records, real art. So he makes 12 and a half inch prints front and back of records based on pop culture, but their records don’t exist. Right? And he’s got everything.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:46:36]:
He’s got Schitt’s Creek, the Muppets, Pee wee, Breaking Bad, you name it. You know, Princess Bride, you name it. He’s got it. And then I watched it, somebody came up and went, do you have blankety blank insert anime name here? And he went, nope. I don’t. And then he looks at me and goes, anime. The kids love anime. I have no anime.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:47:00]:
I said, why don’t you have any anime? And he said, because I don’t like anime. Drew would be recycling and phoning it in and mass marketing if Drew decided to follow the money into anime knowing full well he’s tried it and doesn’t like it. Right? He’s tried it, but he doesn’t like it. Similarly, I went to my dear friend Katie Ellehoefer who makes these she’s got a $1,000,000 business. She makes this incredible cosplay ready to wear and is a professional cosplay designer. And I was like, you need Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle hoodies. And she said, No, I don’t. And I said, Why? And she said, It’s not my fandom.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:47:47]:
I make art for what I know. So she doesn’t want to go out and learn Ninja Turtles to the point of ravenous Annie, so she’s not going to make sweaters for them.
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:58]:
Yeah. I mean, imagine if she did try to make stuff without knowing much about it just because somebody asked her to. No. I’m sure you’d be able to tell the difference without even knowing between the stuff that she makes because she loves it and the stuff that she made because somebody asked her to that she doesn’t love.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:48:15]:
And I could I myself could make more money copywriting other people’s websites. If I went back to doing that semi full time, I would make a lot more money than I do right now. But that’s not what I wanna do, and that’s not what I wanna put into the world, So I don’t. That’s my anime. That’s my Ninja Turtle City.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:39]:
Yeah. I think that people feel the pressure to make money and it just overtakes that sense of why I’m doing this in the first place.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:48:51]:
Mhmm.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:51]:
Because honestly, you know, if the money is all that matters, you can go get a job at the office down the street and make a lot more money a lot more easily with a lot more benefits and, you know, never have to worry about selling anything on a daily basis ever again because they gave you a full time gig and this was the deal and here’s your check.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:49:12]:
Yep.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:13]:
Yeah.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:49:20]:
That’s my official response to that. Just it’s it’s it’s so easy to get mired down in that place. Mhmm. And then you get to decide. Do I want my creativity to fuel my income and or do I want my creativity to fuel my soul? You can do both. Something can fuel you in multiple ways. But if the answer is both, you have to work at both.
Nancy Norbeck [00:49:59]:
Mhmm.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:49:59]:
And if you’re not willing to work at both, then maybe just save your creativity so that it fuels your life and not your pocket.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:09]:
Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s a big thing. You know? There are people you you talk about your dad, the engineer. My dad’s an engineer. My dad loves being an engineer, but my dad would probably die if you told him he could never sing in a choir again.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:50:22]:
Mhmm. You
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:24]:
know? And what I was told growing up was you do the creative things on the side as a hobby, you don’t do them as a job. Yeah. And I think a lot of us heard that, and we have to kind of wrap our heads around the idea that, no, actually, I could do this as a job. But Yeah. But you have to weigh, you know, how much time and energy do I have to put into that? Is that really where I wanna Annie? Or am I better off doing it as a hobby? Or, you know, this is really my thing, this is what I wanna do. So I’m gonna put in the time and the energy, and I’m gonna figure out how to make money doing the stuff that I love, even if it’s not getting up on a Broadway stage. And it’s not a one size fits all thing. And I think that we tend to hear that it’s a one size fits all thing, whether it’s you can’t make money doing that, or you do that as a hobby, or, you know, yeah, you Annie make money doing that, but you have to work really, really hard and, you know, live in your your little garret where you’ll starve to death.
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:25]:
And none of those things is really strictly true. It’s just dependent on where you wanna put your energy and your time and your effort. And whether or not you can figure out the way to do the supposedly you’re going to starve stuff or you don’t starve. That might be something cool and new that nobody else has ever done before.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:51:46]:
Right. It’s just a matter of how to use your word from before pure. It’s important to you to keep it, how chaste and and lovely, and also what you’re willing to sacrifice for your art in that. You know, if I had stayed in musical theater, I would have expected a lot of traveling, time away from my family, really long hours, restrictive diets, bleeding feet. Right? And I would have been like, that’s the cost of the job. Mhmm. Selling your art is the cost of your job if you make it your job, just like bleeding feet and long hours. So I decided that I didn’t wanna compete with my friends.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:52:36]:
I decided that auditioning wasn’t great for my mental health. I decided that I was gonna stop for a while and see what else was out there for me. I made that choice because I didn’t wanna put in the work of honoring the others’ expectations and demands. That doesn’t mean that I went into a job with no expectations and demands. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:58]:
Right.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:52:59]:
So are you willing to break your feet?
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:04]:
Well, and, you know, I gotta tell you when you put it that way, being willing to sell a painting sounds a hell of a lot more appealing than destroying your feet. Yep. Because boy, do mine hurt just hearing you say that. Yep. Right? I would much rather sell a painting, an album or whatever it is Mhmm. Than deal with that.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:53:30]:
Yep. I mean, look at these actors who lose £60, gain £60, get divorces, wind up having a like, it all of that is a weird cost to do in business. Right? But next time you don’t wanna sell something, go find a friend who is professional dancer and asks to see their feet and say, they have that. I have sales.
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:52]:
Yeah. Which is not to denigrate the professional dancer either. It’s Oh
Annie P. Ruggles [00:53:59]:
my god. No.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:00]:
Different choices for different people.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:54:02]:
It’s incredible. The sacrifice, the brilliance, the talent, the perseverance, the pain management. I mean, it’s unreal. But dancers are some of the most disciplined, driven, eye on the prize, dedicated people I’ve ever seen. And they have the scars and the bumps and the bruises and the doctor’s bills to prove it. Yeah. Because they’ve put in the work. The rest of us just don’t normally get doctor’s bills when we overexert.
Nancy Norbeck [00:54:39]:
Right. Right. But it it’s still, I think, is a really valuable perspective. Like Mhmm. You know, the idea that selling is painful pales in comparison to something like that.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:54:53]:
And it doesn’t have to be painful. Right. It might be uncomfortable like art often is, but it’s not unnatural unless a good person tries to go bad. You don’t have to do that. Stay in honesty, stay in integrity, stay in enthusiasm. It’ll hurt a lot less. And everything else that’s left is just discomfort. And really, when you look at it that way, discomfort really pales in comparison to broken feet that you have to tap dance on.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:29]:
Yeah. And I think looking at it more as having an honest conversation with somebody rather than, you know, I have to be pushy and all of those things that you don’t want to be. Right. Though I like the way you were saying earlier, you know, we manipulate stuff all the time. Like, manipulative has become a word that has connotations that shouldn’t necessarily always apply, but we tend to go right there. But, you know, the idea of just saying, hey, you know, I saw you looking at this painting. Yeah. What what do you think? You know, I’m the one who painted it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:04]:
Let me tell you the story. You know, what whatever feels natural and right to engage with somebody who’s enjoying your work Yes. Is so much easier and feels so much lighter, like, even as I say it, then, oh, I saw that person looking at my painting, and I’m gonna go see if I can get them to buy it. Right. Right?
Annie P. Ruggles [00:56:25]:
Just deepen the conversation. And then when the time comes, tell them what the price is and see how it lands on them. That’s all you can do. That’s it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:35]:
That’s so freaking healthy.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:56:38]:
Mhmm. It really, really is. It really is.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:44]:
And it sounds so much more simpler than I think we tell ourselves that it Annie possibly be, and then we get stuck. But it really, you know, I think it only has to be complicated and awful if we decide we’re gonna make it that way.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:56:59]:
Absa freaking lutely.
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:01]:
And I think also, dear artists and other forms of creative people, your work has value and so do you, and it’s okay to acknowledge that and Uh-huh. Say, yes, I put time and effort into this painting, this photo, this piece of music, and therefore, I am absolutely entitled to charge for it. And so I’m gonna and I’m gonna do it as fairly as I possibly can, but that’s the plan.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:57:28]:
And, again, remember, you pay other artists all the time. So pay closer attention. Why are you buying, and what are they doing right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:40]:
That’s perfect. That’s, like, the absolutely best possible place to end this conversation. Yay. So, Annie p, thank you so so much for setting us straight on this whole crazy stig what’s the word? There’s a word. You know Stigma? Yeah. That’s kinda where I was going. There’s a stigma around the way I’m on creative people around self. I just didn’t come up with the right form of the word so much for me being a word person.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:11]:
But, you know, thank you for giving us much needed perspective and sanity and and a healthy way of looking at this whole process, and I hope that people who listen are really inspired to go approach it this way rather than thinking that it has to be some horrible thing that makes them a scummy person.
Annie P. Ruggles [00:58:31]:
You don’t have to be scummy. You just have to ask.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:36]:
It’s beautiful. Thank you so much. That’s our show for this week. I’m sure Annie has given you a lot to think about if you’re reluctant to charge for your creative work. I hope that you’re inspired to consider your relationship with money and creativity, and that you’ll leave a review. And in it, tell us about that relationship, and if you think you might change it. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Thanks so much.
Nancy Norbeck [00:59:02]:
You know, I talk to people all the time who are feeling totally lost, overwhelmed, and stuck creatively. And I know there are lots more of you out there who are feeling the same way, so I made something to help. Check out the link in your podcast app for my creative tune up kit. It’s $37, super affordable, and it’s full of my favorite coaching tools to help you rediscover your creative self and make progress fast. I would love to get it into your hands so that you can get unstuck and create beautiful things this year. Follow Your Curiosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends.
Nancy Norbeck [00:59:47]:
It really helps me reach new listeners.