Kevin Carey came to writing and filmmaking later in his career, but has wasted no time producing a wide range of poetry, fiction, and documentaries, including a crime novel, Murder in the Marsh, and a middle grade novel, Junior Miles and the Junkman. He’s also the coordinator of creative writing at Salem State University in Massachusetts, where he teaches intro and upper level creative writing courses. Kevin tells me how he got his start with writing, how his MFA experience changed both his writing and the opportunities available to him, the importance of reading your work to others, and much more.
Episode breakdown:
00:00 Stranger’s grief sparked passion for poetry teaching.
08:53 Transitioning from poetry to fiction writing journey.
14:54 Drawing inspiration from hometown for crime novel.
21:40 Deciding not to work with an agent.
26:12 Friend’s art gallery led to film business.
28:03 Close friendships and passion in documentary filmmaking.
35:28 Writers struggle to let go of perfection.
40:09 Encouraging honest feedback, experimenting, and releasing pressure.
45:38 Successful writers helping and inspiring young writers.
50:19 Diverse students in writing classes seek guidance.
58:42 MFA program: discovering joy in completing novels.
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Transcript
Please note: This is an unedited transcript, provided as a courtesy, and reflects the actual conversation as closely as possible. Please forgive any typographical or grammatical errors.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:06]:
Welcome to Follow Your Curiosity. Ordinary people, extraordinary creativity. Here’s how to get unstuck. I’m your host, creativity coach Nancy Norbeck. Let’s go. Kevin Carey came to writing and filmmaking late in his career, but has wasted no time producing a wide range of poetry, fiction, and documentaries, including a crime novel, Murder in the Marsh, and a middle grade novel, Junior Miles and the Junkman. He’s also the coordinator of creative writing at Salem State University in Massachusetts where he teaches intro and upper level creative writing courses. Kevin tells me how he got his start with writing, how his MFA experience changed both his writing and the opportunities available to him, the importance of reading your work to others and much, much more.
Nancy Norbeck [00:00:54]:
Here’s my conversation with Kevin Carey. Kevin, welcome to follow your curiosity.
Kevin Carey [00:01:01]:
Thank you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:01:03]:
So I always start everyone with the same question, which is, were you a creative kid, or did you find your creative side later on?
Kevin Carey [00:01:13]:
Well, I was interested in creativity. I I was a Creative kid. I I always liked storytelling. I like the stories my father would tell us. I was a big movie fan as a kid, big film buff. And, so I I had a a side of me that that wanted to explore that, But I really never did until later in my life. So, it’s kind of a funny thing. I I had 2 little kids and Had had many different jobs and went back to school to get a master’s degree and and just Decided I I wanted to write more.
Kevin Carey [00:01:56]:
I started taking all these creative writing courses, and I took so many. Someone said to me, you know, you might as well matriculate and get a degree. You’re halfway way there. So, and that’s really when it started to become a serious thing for me. I had dabbled in it over the years, but, I was I was kinda late to the game.
Nancy Norbeck [00:02:17]:
That’s interesting. So when you started to take it more seriously, how did that How did that look?
Kevin Carey [00:02:24]:
Well, I can tell you one experience that really fueled it for me. I had written a poem about a guy I worked with on the beach. He he had died. He was a really nice guy, And it got published in this little magazine, and they had a reading at a bookstore in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. And, So I had never done this before. So I said, yeah. Alright. I’ll I’ll go up, and and I and I read the poem, and it was only a few people there.
Kevin Carey [00:02:55]:
You know? And, A guy was walking by, and he stopped and he listened. And and he came over to me and said, oh, I just lost my brother, And we had a 20 minute conversation about the poem, and and I drove home thinking, Wow. How how cool was that? You know? Like, and I just got this idea that I wanted to do this again. Like, I really enjoyed the communication of that. You know? Not not to just get the pat on the back, but just to Be able to talk to someone about something that you’ve written, and and that that really stayed with me. And, and I just got serious about it. You No. And one thing led to another, and, I got an MFA after that master’s degree and, was lucky enough to get an adjunct teaching job that turned into a full time job many years later and and started publishing this narrative poetry books and fiction.
Kevin Carey [00:03:58]:
You know? I’m I was a fiction writer at first, I think, and And in the beginning, all I could publish was narrative poetry. So, sometimes the writing takes you where it wants to take you. Right? So,
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:13]:
so true.
Kevin Carey [00:04:13]:
But now I feel like I’ve come kinda full circle as of the last few years, especially. And, I I I always enjoyed it, but it took me a long time to get serious about it. You know, the idea of being a writer is is great. Right? But you have to sit down. You have to sit down and write a lot.
Nancy Norbeck [00:04:37]:
It does involve actually putting words on a page. Yes. Which is the part that seems to flummox a lot of people.
Kevin Carey [00:04:46]:
I know. You know, it isn’t easy, and it’s lonely. That’s why at certain stages, I will find myself in coffee shops with just ambient noise and people around and you know? Because it it it can be kinda lonely just sitting up in your room and scribbling away. You know? So but the the joy of it is sharing it with people and, You know, having opportunities to you know, like I’m doing now with you, just talk to people about it. You know? I that that makes it feel Validated for me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:20]:
Sure. Well and I think that it’s it’s interesting that that you had that experience Doing that reading pretty early on. So you got that kind of reinforcement that a lot of writers don’t get because they are sitting on their own.
Kevin Carey [00:05:37]:
Yeah. I mean, true. I did I it it was an early positive It’s early, you know, relatively. I was, like, late thirties at the time. Right? So, But all all that rejection came forming in as well over this. You know? So, no no shortage of that. You know? And
Nancy Norbeck [00:05:59]:
There’s no avoiding the rejection.
Kevin Carey [00:06:01]:
Yeah. And I, you know, I it did it still bugs me a little, but it doesn’t bug me like it used to. It doesn’t it doesn’t defeat me like sometimes it would in the past. You know? I just keep moving on and Keep writing and you know, sometimes it’s a numbers game. You just gotta keep throwing it against the wall until something’s fair. Sure.
Nancy Norbeck [00:06:23]:
Do you think that that it’s easier to deal with rejection now just because you’ve been through it so many times, or has your perspective on it
Kevin Carey [00:06:30]:
changed. Well, you know, I you always get that initial little, you know, like, oh, I really thought I had a chance at this. So this seemed like a good fit. You know? But then you you just, you know, put your big boy pants on and realize this is part of the game. You know? So, and, you know, it is. It’s it’s a very subjective business. And, you know, 1 one person’s rejection is, You know, someone else loves that. So, you just have to Just not give up.
Kevin Carey [00:07:05]:
You know? I mean, I I tell my students that all the time. If you’re serious about this, just stay serious no matter what the rejection is. Just, You know, just keep going.
Nancy Norbeck [00:07:16]:
Right.
Kevin Carey [00:07:16]:
And, you know, you someday, you’ll be glad you did. It’s, you know and look. There are people that, You know, just kinda come out of grade school and write that novel and become rich and famous. Right? So, I mean, there’s there’s amazing stories about young writers that that just take off. That wasn’t my story, nor is it today. So you know? But that that’s okay. I mean, it’s, it’s it’s alright for it It takes some time, and it’s and it’s alright to feel really good about it when it finally does happen. You know? So, I’m okay with all of it.
Kevin Carey [00:07:57]:
Yeah. I’d like everything I send out to be scooped up right away, but, you know, It’s not the real world for me, anyway.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:06]:
And, also, I think it’s just normal. You know? It’s the rare person who has that experience where something is suddenly Snapped up right away first try, and everything is smooth sailing from there. That’s just not normal for most people.
Kevin Carey [00:08:20]:
No. It isn’t. Yeah. It’s, so I feel like I’m kinda in with the gang. You know? Like, this is, this is an ongoing kinda struggle, but I I can’t imagine not doing it now after doing it for so long. You know? And I and I write in a lot of different genres, which I think helps me because I can never have an excuse, well, I can’t write. I just can move on to something else. You know? And, and that’s been good for me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:08:48]:
How did you end up writing in so many different genres?
Kevin Carey [00:08:53]:
Well, I told you, I I think I wanted to be a fiction writer, and And I, you know, I was writing a lot of fiction and but I got in this MFA program, and I met all these Crazy New Jersey poets, and they took me under that wing. And, you know, and I’m so grateful to them to this day, and And, it just led me down this, you know, temporary path of, you know, writing a lot of narrative poetry about my life and people I knew and Places I knew, and those were the books that got published early. And, and it was great. It was wonderful. It was unexpected, Really. And, and I I value those friendships and and that work, and And I still write poetry, but, that fiction was always kinda just lurking there waiting to waiting to get its turn. You know? And and it has, and it feels good about that. I feel good about that too.
Nancy Norbeck [00:09:57]:
Well and you write a lot of different kinds of fiction too.
Kevin Carey [00:10:01]:
I do. Yeah. Some some literary fiction. I’ve written a crime novel, and most recently, I’ve written a middle grade novel. So, yeah, I’m touching a few bases, which is fun. You know? Now it’s interesting. The middle grade novel, if I can, Junior Miles and the junk man, that came out in September, 26th just came out. I had that novel for about 10 years
Nancy Norbeck [00:10:28]:
Oh, wow.
Kevin Carey [00:10:28]:
In in different forms. And, I had 3 different agents for it. They all loved it. I got really good reads at big houses. The big houses would say wonderful things about it, And nobody would buy it. So after this last stage and after a couple of years, I took it back and started to shop it myself, and, Regal House publishing in North Carolina picked it up, and I’m just so happy that it’s Found a home. I mean, I’ve lived with this novel in in different iterations for really 10 or 12 years. So, You know, my message when I go and read and I talk to kids about writing is don’t throw anything out, hang on to it, And just, you know, keep working on other stuff.
Kevin Carey [00:11:18]:
And when it’s time, you know, it’ll happen.
Nancy Norbeck [00:11:22]:
Yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:11:24]:
Yeah. And, so, I’m particularly happy about this coming out now, and it’s just, You know, it was something that I thought about for a long time. You know, my kids are 29 and 31, I was talking to my daughter, and she said, I remember when I was in gym when I was in gymnastics, You were working on that manuscript. So Wow. You know? That’s a long time ago. And, but, you know, the act to a finished novel is a good 10 to 12 years old. So
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:02]:
Well, And there’s something to be said, I think, for listening to the things that don’t wanna leave you alone.
Kevin Carey [00:12:09]:
Absolutely. Yeah. They keep
Nancy Norbeck [00:12:11]:
pulling you back. There’s There’s a reason that they keep pulling you back, I think.
Kevin Carey [00:12:14]:
Well, even the even the, inspiration for this novel was, There’s an exhibit that still travels around. It’s called springs, sprockets, and pulleys, and it’s these life-sized figures made of foul material. And they they could be a band or different setups, and you press a button and they all move at once. They’re all on pulleys. And that exhibit, I had taken my children to in Pittsfield, Mass, and I I started thinking about this figure made of junk that came alive. And then 2 years later, I’m still thinking about it, and I’m in the MFA program in, New Jersey and the Morristown Museum had the same exhibit, so I went and saw it again. So it was chasing me around. You know? It was just Yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:13:01]:
It just kept coming up in my life, and, and then I started to craft a story around it and finally. You know? So it was really, You know, I’m I’m a big believer in kinda cross inspiration too. Right? Like, you know, having painting on music or something inspire the word. And, so this felt like and I’ve since met the artist of that after this book came out because I acknowledged him in it. His name is Steve Gerberich. He has a studio in Newburgh, New York, and, it’s a fascinating place full of, like, just found material sculptures in motion all over the place. It’s like crazy creative space. And, and he’s a super nice guy.
Kevin Carey [00:13:48]:
And so it I just it just feels like so much has come together in this last few years around this novel For me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:57]:
Sure.
Kevin Carey [00:13:58]:
Well, yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:13:59]:
And it’s interesting too because, you know, writing a crime novel is a really different more thing than writing for kids.
Kevin Carey [00:14:08]:
It is. And, you know, the the book, Junior Miles and the Junkman, I I don’t think I started out thinking I’m writing a middle grade novel. I just I had this voice of a 12 or 13 year old kid in my head, and I wrote it the 1st person, and it was really the voice that drove the narrative. So every time I get stuck, June, you would just tell another story or an anecdote or you know? So, I wasn’t thinking about who was gonna read it. Mhmm. So it it kinda changed over the years, and I think that may have been some of the issue with it early on is They won’t show where to stick it. You know? Yeah. What what shelf this goes on.
Kevin Carey [00:14:54]:
Right? So in some ways, it was just writing a novel. And, yeah, I mean, the crime novel is obviously for a different audience, and, And that’s not a first person book, but, again, it was kinda steeped in something that I that I knew a little about. I grew up in Riviera, Massachusetts, and, there’s a marsh that runs along parallel to the boulevard. And, back in the day in When I was a young person, there there was a lot of mobster activity, and people would find bodies in the mosh. And then all these stories Kind of came out of that. Right? Some of them true, maybe some of them not. But, so One day, I was driving by that mosh, and I just imagined if somebody had had an, A kind of encounter with someone in the marsh and there was a shooting. And what if the body slipped into the marsh and disappeared? What would happen? And that became the kind of premise for the novel.
Kevin Carey [00:16:00]:
Right? And, and it’s about 19 eighties. It’s about be there beach. It’s with all its, good and bad things, you know, you know, about it that that I could draw on personally, you know, from having grown up there. So that felt like, setting wise and getting into the characters and felt I felt like I was on good footing in that in that novel, now that I had a kind of plot device to go with. You know? But, junior was really about the voice. It was just about this kid telling the story. And, you know, I was a 7th grade basketball coach for 19 years too, so I so I know the age group pretty well outside of having 2 7th graders of my own at one time. But, so I felt like I was on good footing for another reason, right, for a different reason in the at.
Kevin Carey [00:16:59]:
So, I guess you write what you know, and if you don’t know it, you go figure it out. But you know? So, I felt comfortable in these 2 distinctly different areas For those reasons.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:12]:
Sure.
Kevin Carey [00:17:13]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:14]:
It’s great when you can draw on that kind of stuff. When you have to go and and research it, it It can be a little trickier, at least I’ve found. Yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:17:25]:
I mean, it it doesn’t mean that you can’t become kind of a Temporary expert enough to write whatever you need to write, but it is it is a different road. I haven’t I haven’t really tried that yet. You know, it’s all kind of circles back to me in a weird in a weird way, where I’m comfortable.
Nancy Norbeck [00:17:48]:
Yeah. There’s nothing wrong with that either. No. No. Works out well. So I know that, that a lot of authors have trouble writing in different genres because agents and publishers don’t wanna you know, they they think you’re known for this. Therefore, you shouldn’t turn around and write a book for kids or, you know, if you’ve been writing mysteries forever, you shouldn’t suddenly write a romance novel or something like that. Have have you encountered anything Thing like that?
Kevin Carey [00:18:15]:
I did a little bit. I had I had a few you know, the the Few few publishers that were interested in that murder book in the past, I was with an agent for this junk man book at the time. And some of that conversation came up about, I don’t think this is a good time to publish it. That might not be good for this project. And, but, you know, it wasn’t a sustained conversation. It wasn’t, It did shy me away from 1 or 2 opportunities early on, but then then it all worked out. You know? And I guess I understand that from an agent’s point of view about wanting to kinda market you as This and not all of this. You know? Like Mhmm.
Kevin Carey [00:19:05]:
How they like to be specific in at least in my limited experience. And But, I was always gonna keep shopping eventually. You know? And, I I think that’s the that’s the whole other side of writing. Right? Like, Okay. I feel good about this. I finished this manuscript. Now what do I do with it? Now you you have to put on that other hat, you know, get busy, and Seek out your opportunities, you know, until you land something where someone else is doing that for you, which isn’t the case with me, really. You know? So, it’s it’s a full time job in a few different ways that that I do part time.
Kevin Carey [00:19:57]:
You know, well, I, I mean, I do it a lot of the time, but around teaching. You know? So it’s I have a great job that gives me the summer off, which I’m thankful for. And, without that, I don’t think I would catch up as Quickly.
Nancy Norbeck [00:20:14]:
Sure. So since you mentioned that you you took the middle grade novel back and shopped it yourself, I’m Curious how that was because most authors don’t do that.
Kevin Carey [00:20:25]:
Well, I mean, I had had 3 agents, and they you know, 2 of them especially worked very hard to try and fun, you know, publishers for it. And I’m eternally grateful for them because the the novel went through some changes in both cases that made it better. And, you know, they were very gave me very wise advice. And, but I think there’s a certain level of publisher that they’re looking for. And, if it if it doesn’t happen with them, then They’re gonna just shelve it for a while and try again later, which happened in that. You know? And, I was, you know, willing to kinda shop it around to other levels of publishers, you know, That weren’t paying advances that, you know, didn’t have, some of the perks that the big, big houses have. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:21:21]:
Mhmm.
Kevin Carey [00:21:21]:
And Regal House has been great. I mean, they’ve been so supportive. The the editing process was really professional. The book looks great. I’m really happy about the finished product. They’re supportive. They get it out there. You know? They do a lot of things at the big houses too.
Kevin Carey [00:21:40]:
They’re just not giving you money upfront from it. And, you know, so I think that that’s kind of the separator, that some agents want. They want and, look, they they have to make a living too, so I understand it, that those advanced novels the best thing you can do, right, for them for the writer and for the agent. But, You know, after a while, I just said thank you very much, but I’m, you know, I think I’m gonna seek out some of these other opportunities. So I, you know, got my query letter together and a few chapters in the manuscript and sent it out like you do. And, I got a few people interested, and then, House asked for the whole book, and I sent it. And, We came to an agreement on a little, kind of initial edit, some things that would be extracted from the book, and, I was fine with that. And we signed on the dotted line 2 years later.
Kevin Carey [00:22:47]:
Here it is.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:48]:
There it is.
Kevin Carey [00:22:49]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:22:51]:
Have you shopped any of your other projects yourself, or have those all gone through agents?
Kevin Carey [00:22:56]:
No. The the crime novel was totally on me after many age of rejections. And that, that got published, by a, kinda horror pulpy publisher named Darkstroke in, in the UK. And, Well, that was a great experience too. They were fantastic, and, that’s still that book still pops up once in a while. And, you know, the poetry, I don’t have an I don’t have an agent for my poetry, and most poets don’t. There are some agencies that represent, wildly popular poets, but, You know, most of us are sending our manuscripts out on our own, and I was I was lucky there too. I found 1 press that, published 3 3 books for me, and, now I have a 4th one floating around.
Kevin Carey [00:23:56]:
And, I just, I just have a had a collection published, with Lily Poetry Review With a friend of mine that we co wrote it, it’s called Olympus Heights, and it reimagines the Greek gods and goddess is living in a modern gated community, and, there’s a lot of, Fun and puns and, you know, kind of, like, there’s Hera Harrah’s shopping at Whole Foods and Zeus on Instagram and, you know, things like that. So it’s, it was a blast to do. It it was right after the pandemic lifted And we started meeting for coffee. Her name is Colleen Michaels, and she’s a good friend of mine. And, we gave each other. I’d say, you go home and write about heroin, And she’d give me Zeus, and and we just kept meeting every once in a while and doing that. And then we piled them up and published a few of them and then, Said, you know what? I I think we have a collection here. Let’s start sending it out.
Kevin Carey [00:25:03]:
And, so that recently just came out. So this has been a good year for me. But, you know, so and I’m so happy about that collection because finally, it’s poetry that’s not about me. Right? I I kinda feel like maybe I’ve moved on from my my world into someone else’s, and maybe that’ll be the start of, you know, I do a collection about something else, some other subject. You know? Because, it has been a lot of internal Generation of my own poetry in the past.
Nancy Norbeck [00:25:40]:
I love the way that you collaborated on that. That just sounds like so much fun. Not least of all because of the premise, but even if the premise had been different, I think sitting around and trading, you know, okay. Here’s this idea. You go write This
Kevin Carey [00:25:54]:
Yeah. We we we already started a conversation about, oh, what what could we do next in the same way? You know? Like, what other subject could we tackle? You know? So
Nancy Norbeck [00:26:03]:
Yeah. That’s awesome. So how did you end up doing film then?
Kevin Carey [00:26:12]:
Well, one of the many jobs that I had before I got back into school Was, I have a friend in Marvel Head who owns an art gallery, Jack Heiberger, and he was an industrial kind of filmmaker, and he had a little business in Beverly. And I had made a short film with a friend of mine, and, We needed a place to edit it, and he let us edit it. And that led to our friendship, and then we we set up this little industrial film and video business where we do, kinda trade show videos or, you know, marketing videos. And And every once in a while, we do something of our own. That was what we felt was a little more creative. And, and that led me to Doing a few local documentaries with him and a friend of mine, Tim Young. And, So I I I got some experience with it. You know? And, every once in a while, I’d Make a short film or think of a project to do.
Kevin Carey [00:27:18]:
And and then when I met these, Jersey poets, they were One of my favorite people in the world, Maria Mazziotti Gillan, who runs the poetry center in, Paterson, New Jersey, she was been a a figure in the poetry world in New Jersey. She went to school with Allen Ginsberg, and, she’s done so much for New Jersey poetry. So one of my friends at at FTU or 2 of my friends, actually, Bob Evans and Mark Hillinghouse. Mark said we should make a movie about Maria. So we did. We made a documentary about her, and and Bob did the music for us. He’s a songwriter and a musician. And, That was just a great collaborative experience.
Kevin Carey [00:28:03]:
You know? We were people that met in this program and became really friendly and, And just we’re able to pull this off. So then we did another one a few years later about a a Salem, Mass poet who had passed away named Malcolm Miller, who was kind of a street poet, but befriended a professor at Salem State University where I work. So we made a film about him And their their friendship. And, I don’t know. These were kinda labors of love. You know? I always joke that if you wanna make less money as a poet, get in the poetry documentary business. No one’s retiring off these movies, but They were fantastic to do, and we had several screenings. And it was really a blast.
Kevin Carey [00:28:54]:
And, you know, as far as Maria goes, I mean, she deserved Something for all she’s done over the years. So that just felt really good to me. Her and I do, poetry workshops together twice a year in Mendham, New Jersey. And I I had been a participant in those for years, and then, the poet Laura Boss who used to do them with Maria passed away. So So now Maria’s asked me to do it with her over the last few years. Cool. And it’s really cool. It’s just such an honor to hang out with her and and help her in any way.
Kevin Carey [00:29:25]:
I’d I’d do anything for her. And, so, you know, again, all this goes back to that MFA program and just Having those Jersey folks, Jersey is like my 2nd home. You know? It it’s been so good to me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:40]:
That’s so great.
Kevin Carey [00:29:42]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:43]:
So it was a residential program then. Right?
Kevin Carey [00:29:46]:
No. It was a low res.
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:47]:
Oh, was it?
Kevin Carey [00:29:48]:
Yeah. Okay. And we were the 1st class of the low res at at Fairleigh Dickinson University.
Nancy Norbeck [00:29:54]:
Oh, wow. That must have been interesting thing because I did Goddard’s low res program, and I was thinking How
Kevin Carey [00:30:00]:
did you like it?
Nancy Norbeck [00:30:00]:
I I loved it. But Yeah. What I was picturing as you were Talking was, you know, having more of an opportunity to really build those friendships, which, you know, we did, but not you know, when you’re When you’re only together for a week at the beginning of the semester, it’s really hard to to make that a real interactive collaborative kind of thing beyond that week.
Kevin Carey [00:30:26]:
Yeah. I think by the 2nd residency, we had become really friendly, and and, they introduced me to this weekend that I now help teach at. So we were seeing each other a few times a year and then making then going out of our way to kinda get together another time. So we we really bonded, and, you know, I learned so much from them. And and, it just it was it was a great program for me, really. I mean, I had 2 little kids at the time. I couldn’t say to my wife. I’ll I’ll see you in a couple of years.
Kevin Carey [00:30:59]:
I’ll be home this summer. But Yeah. No. Not not that I want too. But, you know, so it it was really what what worked for me around working and trying to raise a family and you know? And, I’m I’m so happy I did it. I mean, I I go back most every year still, and it’s been, about 20 years. So, it it’s a perfect program For a certain type of writer or, you know, person in their life. I think if I was, you know, if I was 21 years old, I probably would have wanted a full time residency program.
Kevin Carey [00:31:43]:
Right? But, this was the thing for me at the time. You know? And, you know, you know how it works. You you kinda do a lot of your work at home and but those weeks and those 10 days that we meet were really special and Oh,
Nancy Norbeck [00:31:58]:
yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:31:59]:
Fun. You know? Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:01]:
Yeah. And just because I’m thinking that there are probably people listening who have no idea what a low residency program is
Kevin Carey [00:32:07]:
Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:08]:
It’s it’s It’s a a regular academic program, but you do most of it from wherever you are. And so you spend a a week or so actually in residence at whatever institution your program is at, which is where you do your workshops and your collaborating and and, you know, however the program is set up. And then you go home and you do your academic work and you academic work, and you communicate that with your faculty through some means or other. I mean, ours was USPS, but I don’t know. At this point, they may do it all online. I I have no idea.
Kevin Carey [00:32:39]:
Yeah. Well, you know, I wonder if it and I don’t have an answer to this, but I wonder if the if the low res programs are are zooming more.
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:47]:
I want yeah. I mean, I
Kevin Carey [00:32:48]:
would think the presidencies
Nancy Norbeck [00:32:50]:
would have had to be over Zoom, you know, in the last couple of years. Yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:32:54]:
Yeah. But I mean now, like, if you go to a program, you know, how we would just submit stuff online and go to a, you know, a group Canvas site or something. Now I wonder if they actually do Zoom meetings with each other online.
Nancy Norbeck [00:33:10]:
Could they? Certainly, if we’d had Zoom when I was at Goddard, which was 2007 to 2009. I would imagine that my friends and I would have been Zooming each other all the time. But that wasn’t really an option, so we had email.
Kevin Carey [00:33:25]:
I right. Yeah. We had email. Now you were regarded for Gender, poetry, or both? And
Nancy Norbeck [00:33:31]:
Yeah. Long fiction.
Kevin Carey [00:33:33]:
Yeah. Oh, great. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:33:36]:
Yeah. And, actually, when you were talking about rejection, section. I remember, it wasn’t a faculty member that I had ever worked with, but I think when she did A keynote, I think it was Banu Kapil, but I’m not sure. I could be wrong, who talked about, like, how many rejections She had before she finally found a publisher and basically said, if you haven’t had at least this many rejections, I don’t wanna hear you Blaine, because you have to send it out often.
Kevin Carey [00:34:04]:
No. I know. I mean, it’s true. I try and tell students or just People that I know that are starting to write that, you know, you should spend a couple of weekends and just Send everything you have ready out till it’s out there. And then if as it comes back, as a lot of it does, just look at it, and If you wanna change something, change it and just then it’s easy to maintain that. Right? Mhmm. Things come back 1 at a time. You can get them back out, and There’s always things that there’s always possibilities out there.
Kevin Carey [00:34:39]:
It’s like hope. Right? It’s like, you know, I I really hardly ever let my, my submission cough a go dry. You know? I I always have it out. And, sometimes out too early, probably. You know? But that’s a test for the writing too. You know? I I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sent something out and got it back and said, Why did I send this? It wasn’t ready. You know? But something about that space and time and just doing that. So I think it’s good for a lot of reasons.
Kevin Carey [00:35:14]:
Just be circulating your writing. It tests it. It’s it gives it an opportunity. It it makes it feel like I’m doing it for a reason. Right? But it’s hard for some people to get in that Habit.
Nancy Norbeck [00:35:28]:
Yeah. I I I think it it’s hard it’s hard to let go of it because especially because, you know, Writers can be such perfectionists, and and everyone always says, and I think it’s true, that a piece of writing is never really truly done. There’s always something more can do with it. But at some point, you have to decide that it’s done, or it’s done enough for now, and it’s done enough to send it out. And that point may just be, I have driven myself crazy with this, and I need not to look at it anymore. You know? Yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:35:59]:
Be that
Nancy Norbeck [00:36:00]:
Simple. Because otherwise, you overwork it to death and you drive yourself crazy, and it never goes anywhere. At some point, it’s gotta go somewhere and and hopefully not your bottom desk drawer never to be seen again. You know? Now but it’s it’s got you gotta let it go and move on to the next thing, or you will spend your entire life trying to write one perfect thing that We’ll never be perfect because there will always be something that you can find that you wanna change about it.
Kevin Carey [00:36:28]:
Yeah. I do. And I do understand that. You know, I I also encourage students and people to, like, go out and read it somewhere. Mhmm. Go to an open mic, Or even read it to a friend so you can hear it and listen to it because we can fool ourselves or I can fool myself in my own little, You know, space and thinking, wow. This is really good when maybe it’s not. Or Sometimes the reverse.
Kevin Carey [00:37:00]:
Maybe I don’t think it’s good enough, and I’m not giving myself enough credit. So Yeah. I always have to bounce it off someone somewhere To feel I’m still not really confident about, oh, I really have something good here.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:15]:
Mhmm.
Kevin Carey [00:37:16]:
Saying that on totally on my own. So, you know, we all have a few people that we can trust, right, to tell us, You were right. It’s not that good. You know? Or, you know, or maybe give us the you know, and just that encouragement or that That idea that we weren’t thinking of on our own. You know? Yeah. And,
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:41]:
Yeah. Because you can get too trapped in your own head.
Kevin Carey [00:37:44]:
Absolutely.
Nancy Norbeck [00:37:45]:
And and at the same time, I think what you said about it’s the people you can trust. You have to know who the right people are to share something with. And, you know, for for a middle grade novel, it may not be the same person that you want feedback from for a crime novel. Yeah. And that’s Totally okay because not everybody likes everything or is a good person to give feedback on everything, but you gotta know who that is.
Kevin Carey [00:38:11]:
It’s such subject to business. You know? Even in workshops, if you’re involved in a workshop, I always tell people, thank everybody for everything they say, and then go home and do what you want. Right? Like, don’t don’t feel like every piece of advice is for you. It’s not. I mean, there’s many different readers out there, and People react to things differently if it doesn’t resonate with you. But on the other hand, be open to everything. Don’t try and close down that information. Like, oh, oh, no.
Kevin Carey [00:38:46]:
Wait a minute. You don’t understand. You know? Because that might be the person that’s telling you something really valuable the next time. Right? So just take it all in, say thanks, and then go home and think about it. Oftentimes, what I find is that something else will emerge Between what I had and the advice, and there’ll be something different that happens In the middle of that. Right? And just the process of rethinking it creates this idea that, Holy cow. I didn’t think of that before. You know? Right.
Kevin Carey [00:39:21]:
Yeah. So it’s You you can’t hug it too close to you. You’re gonna have to share it in some ways and get it out there. Let it breathe. Let other people react to it, I think to real for me, to to really feel like I’ve got a doubt or or I’m close. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:39:38]:
Sure. And and I’m wondering too, Since you teach, what you I’m thinking say, but say might not be quite the right word. It might be something else. How how you handle students who have trouble taking feedback and who take it personally because there’s always someone who does.
Kevin Carey [00:39:58]:
Yeah. I do I do I do tell them that, what I just said about just thank everybody for everything. But I also tell the people giving the feedback, look. There’s a way to say something.
Nancy Norbeck [00:40:08]:
Oh, sure.
Kevin Carey [00:40:09]:
Right? We’re not here to discourage each other. And, you know, so you can Give honest feedback about things you think maybe need some work, but you can say it in a way that’s That still doesn’t deflate the person that you’re speaking to. Right? So I have those kinda conversations before we even get into it. And, you know, like, if if I have an intro to creative writing class, I I tell them right at the beginning of class, Look. What what I’m asking you to do this semester really is not fair because anything I’ve ever written that I was proud of. Took me a long time to write, a lot longer than a semester. So what I’m asking you to do is experiment And take some chances and, you know, be willing to rewrite because nothing is written till it’s rewritten. Right? So, You know, so it kinda takes the pressure off a little bit.
Kevin Carey [00:41:10]:
And then, you know, be honest with each other, help each other out, and And don’t, you know, and it works most times. You know? You know, there’s always a few times that it that it doesn’t, but, You know, writing writing teaching writing is hard, and writing is hard. Right? It you know? And unless you’re that That’s superstar out of the womb. Right? You you’re, you’re gonna struggle with it at some point, And and that’s okay. That’s good. That’s where you learn.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:44]:
Yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:41:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. My wife. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:41:53]:
Yeah. No. There there was there was someone in my MFA program who had a really, really hard time hearing feedback. And it really I’m not sure that it mattered what it was. I I think that He took all of it very personally. And I don’t know if he ever managed to get past that. Kat. And it it seemed like such a shame because it was like, it’s not about you.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:19]:
It’s about making what you wrote better. Nobody’s nobody’s sitting here saying, you know, gee gee, Bob. This this thing that you wrote is a great steaming pile of crap, and you should never be allowed to touch a pen again. You know? No one is saying that. It’s just that we’re seeing stuff that You’re not seeing and trying to offer that up to help you make it better. But but now, I remember, you know, sitting in workshops with him, and and He would he would just turn bright red. You could practically see the steam coming out of his ears, and I know
Kevin Carey [00:42:53]:
that I’m surprised he went into it.
Nancy Norbeck [00:42:56]:
Yeah. Well, though, he was one of the people who had actually published some things before the program, and I wonder if that led him to have an impression that he already knew all of these things. In which case, still, why would you take the program if he thought you knew everything. But but yeah. I always I always think of that because I think it was a tough nut to I know some faculty tried to talk to him about it and kind of coax him into seeing it in a different way, but I’m not sure if it ever worked.
Kevin Carey [00:43:29]:
Yeah. I think I had the advantage of of being still being pretty insecure about it and not and having a lot to learn Getting into the game late that I was just willing to listen to everybody. And look. That doesn’t mean I didn’t go home Saying, what the heck was he talking about? You know? I mean, sure, there’s some feedback that I just never bought into, but I didn’t need to display that, My displeasure at the time of the workshop. You know? Just just kinda take it and load it and go home and use what helps you. You know? Yeah. It’s an easy thing to do, really. If you can just take your ego out of it for the for the workshop itself and just say whatever.
Kevin Carey [00:44:12]:
Say what you want because maybe there’s a kernel in there. Maybe there’s 1 thing in there even though most of the advice you wanna throw out the window. There might be one thing that you say, you know? I can’t stand that guy, but I’m gonna listen to that little piece of advice. Right? So
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:30]:
Yeah. Or like you were saying before, you know, it could be that that what they say isn’t Actually, what needs to happen, but it somehow leads you to what needs to happen.
Kevin Carey [00:44:40]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:44:42]:
Yeah. You don’t wanna discount any of it outright.
Kevin Carey [00:44:45]:
Yeah. It’s you know, egos prevail sometimes. You know? And, that’s just the writing world. I I mean, you know, I mean, I I I have the fortunate position of Being the coordinator of creative writing at Salem State University. And so part of my job is being able to invite writers in And, for our reader series. And I’ve been so fortunate, man. The the the writers that have come in have been so generous With their time and so thoughtful students, and most of them that we’ve had have have been Educators at one time or another, so you know, which helps, I think. And, it it’s just writers can be really cool Most of the time.
Kevin Carey [00:45:38]:
And, you know, every once in a while, there’s there’s someone that, You know, wants to use their success as a kind of I’m better than you. And, that’s unfortunate Because there’s so much good that can come out of writers speaking to young writers about craft and what they do with their time and How they come up with ideas and you know? I’ve I’ve just witnessed so many 1 on 1 conversations in in my time doing that that that have really helped young writers to to get inspired. You know? So when I speak to anybody, you know, I’m I’m always thinking about the people that helped me, right, that was so generous with that time, and they would just, You know, go out of that way. When I got in that MFA program, I had been writing a lot, and I had been writing a lot of different things. So it was I mean, if you can imagine, like, somebody running down the sidewalk with a big pile of writing and saying, Can you read this, and can you read this, and can you read that? And I really chased professors around and said, if you have a minute, would you, You know? And they were all gracious, and and and they all took some extra time for me. And so, I’ll never forget that. And I and I try and do that in my own life when someone asks me to read something or help them out, I’ll give them an extra few minutes here. You know? It’s It’s part of the joy of writing is to share it and help other people get where they wanna get.
Kevin Carey [00:47:17]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:19]:
And I love that kind of coming from the I don’t know what I don’t know space. You know? It’s just like, I know I wanna do this. I know that I wrote this thing. Beyond that, there are probably a 1000000 things I do not know about it. So Would you please read this and tell me something I don’t know about
Kevin Carey [00:47:37]:
this thing? You know? I mean, it’s great. I mean, still to this day, I don’t I don’t have The, I I don’t have the total confidence in yeah. This is good without throwing it somewhere or getting it back. You know? Yeah. But that’s also the fun of it because I’ll do that for someone else. Right?
Nancy Norbeck [00:47:59]:
Right.
Kevin Carey [00:48:00]:
Yeah. It’s Kinda keeps the community alive.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:03]:
Yeah. And it’s interesting because, you know, like like you were saying earlier, writers by definition, You know, in many ways, have to work alone, but that’s where it’s not alone. You know, you need to bring somebody else in. You can’t you can’t just spend too much time in your own Head, you need to get perspectives that aren’t yours to really Yeah. You know, make it what it can be.
Kevin Carey [00:48:27]:
Yeah. Too much time in this head is dangerous space, I think.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:31]:
That’s true
Kevin Carey [00:48:32]:
for all of us.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:33]:
I heard it once put as being Left alone in my head without adult supervision. And I was like, yeah. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean by that. We all we all need somebody to come every once in a while and say, yeah. You’ve spent too much time thinking about this, and you’re not
Kevin Carey [00:48:48]:
seeing anything over.
Nancy Norbeck [00:48:49]:
And what about that? Yeah. Yeah. We all we all do.
Kevin Carey [00:48:54]:
But, you know, it’s a it’s a it’s a great way to make sense of the world. Right? I mean, the world’s a crazy place. And, through art and writing and music and, you know, whatever, It’s just such a a gift to be able to kinda process your life Yeah. Through Something like writing. You know? And, I have 2 kids that were artists, both art school kids, and I used to tell them how lucky they were because, you know, no matter what the day was like, you could go, you know, make a short film, you know, make a painting, you know, React to it that way. You know? And I think it’s really I don’t know what I’d do if I wasn’t a writer. I I think I’d be in trouble. You know? I I don’t think I’d be happy.
Kevin Carey [00:49:52]:
I think I’d be looking. Maybe I would have found something else. But To me, it’s it’s always a place I can go with a mission and with something to say, and, You know, it makes it feel like it’s it’s always worth the day to get up and get out of bed and get busy.
Nancy Norbeck [00:50:13]:
Sure. Yeah. Do you manage to convey that to your students?
Kevin Carey [00:50:19]:
I try. You know, I get a lot of different like, I have some upper level writing courses where the kids are serious. They know what they wanna work on. They’ve got Novels, trilogies, you know, whatever already in mind. Right? And, you know, so that’s that’s the kind of student where we’re just working on Fine tuning that, getting that ready, pointing out some things that maybe they haven’t been thinking about, and just you know, that’s that’s more crafty. Right? But then I have these intro to creative writing classes where they they come from all disciplines. They need the creative expression box Check. Right? And, but sometimes even those kids will say, oh, you know, Maybe I’ll mind them in creative writing now.
Kevin Carey [00:51:07]:
Like, you you try and open up a little side of them that maybe they didn’t have coming in. Mhmm. Right? And, And just to give them that idea that, you know, writing a poem about this, writing a story about this, being inspired to write a play about this It is a is a natural way to process the world, you know, and you’ll always have it once you try it. So, You know, it’s a few different stances, I think, you know, depending on the level of the class. And, But I do tell them, you know, be honest. Take chances. Just you know, where else are you gonna do this? You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:51:47]:
Yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:51:49]:
You know, to and and I say and where else are you gonna get, you know, 18 other people So look at your stuff. You have to buy 18 people dinner after you get out of school to have that happen. Right? So, you know, take advantage of the feedback part of it too because it’s not it isn’t common out there in the real world, You know, unless you’re in a writer’s group, which, you know, a lot of people don’t have time for.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:15]:
Right. Yeah. And even then, you You have to pick your writers group well.
Kevin Carey [00:52:22]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:24]:
Yeah. If it’s just a bunch of random people who Don’t really have a whole lot of writing experience. That’s a very different thing from people who know what they’re doing.
Kevin Carey [00:52:34]:
All of the writers groups you can’t get into. Like, they look at your work Right. I don’t I don’t think
Nancy Norbeck [00:52:39]:
Right. Well and you can end up with the really snooty writers groups too who wanna judge your spelling and your grammar, and not what you’ve actually been trying to do or don’t you know, who can’t figure out what you’re trying to do because they’re in their rarefied snooty world. So that’s that’s the snooty writers group is not necessarily the right writers group for you either.
Kevin Carey [00:53:00]:
We’re going to pass on your submission to our writers group. But
Nancy Norbeck [00:53:04]:
really? Yeah. Yeah. I’ve I’ve heard about at least 1 experience like that from somebody who was brand new and, you know, just wanted to be around other writers and wanted feedback and Really had to work to get them to, like, listen to her for her because they were so not used to that.
Kevin Carey [00:53:25]:
I have a wonderful group that meets, the 1st 3rd Tuesday of every month. It’s the Salem writers group. We meet at the salem athenaeum on essex street in salem and, and it’s a really kind group and everybody’s welcome And, newcomers are encouraged to read So you get 10 minutes. So you can read most people do some combination of read for 5 and get feedback for 5. You know, people will pass out poems sometimes if they’re reading a poem, and I’m actually passing a prime novel through there now. I read little bits of it Couple of times a month. And it it just helps me have something ready. Mhmm.
Kevin Carey [00:54:05]:
So, but it’s a really kind group. There’s no shortage of opinions. Like, they’re all over the place, which is great, but everybody’s really nice, and everyone’s welcoming and supportive and, So I’m lucky. And I think other people are lucky to come to it that it’s it’s been going for a long time. I’ve started a few writers groups over the years that have always eventually burned out. You know? When you’re sitting in a room with 1 person going, I think it’s time to kill this writers Yeah. It’s just you and me now. Yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:54:39]:
But, this one was started by a friend of mine at Salem State, JD Scrimson. It’s been going for a long and, and I think part of it is the format. Like, no one’s taken anything home. You just show up with what you have. You pass off stuff, but you don’t. You know, so it’s all very loose, and it’s just a way to kinda, I don’t know, read work out loud that you’re working on. That had that helps me tremendously. Mhmm.
Kevin Carey [00:55:04]:
You know? And to read it to someone is different than reading it out loud to myself. Yeah. You know? So, I just think, you know, you pick up that sentence. You’re like, oh, man. Why why is that still in there?
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:23]:
Yeah. It’s funny because when you hear it, you it definitely hits differently than than when you read it.
Kevin Carey [00:55:30]:
Yeah. I I have to read it out loud to myself all the time, and just I think you find the rhythm in your writing.
Nancy Norbeck [00:55:38]:
Mhmm.
Kevin Carey [00:55:39]:
When you do that, you find your own voice. Right? And, and if you pay attention to that, I think that’s the thing that can take the hiccups out of the writing. You know? You you can it could just roll along and, You know, the the the best writing is when you forget your reading writing. Right? You just you just kinda roll it along. Yeah. You know?
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:03]:
And more than one time. I have found something that sounded great in my head, but, you know, I tripped right over it trying to read it out loud and Went back and tried again and tripped over it again and was like, okay. That apparently doesn’t work as well as I thought it did. You’re gonna have to change that.
Kevin Carey [00:56:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is true, and it’s it’s it’s only through that experience in some way that you That you’re always testing it out, you know, before it’s ready. And, sometimes you pass the test, and sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you stumble and fall.
Nancy Norbeck [00:56:43]:
Yeah. Well, that’s just that’s just how it goes. That’s just kinda how the writing how writing works. And when you stumble and fall, you go back and you fix it so that nobody else has to stumble and fall.
Kevin Carey [00:56:56]:
Yeah. I mean, it’s, It’s an amazing thing in some ways to ever finish anything. Yeah. You know? Like, I feel you And especially when you’re just beginning something, you write longer fiction. You know what that’s like to write those first couple of lines and say, Man, the end of this seems like I can’t even see it. Mhmm. You know? Even if you know what it is, it seems like The road to that is just, am I ever gonna get there? You know? Yeah. And then you just Kinda day at a time.
Kevin Carey [00:57:32]:
You know? You just, like, pile it up a little bit here, a little bit there. I always say when I’m writing something longer, I love when I have a 100 pages Mhmm. Because It feels like something in my hand. I can carry it around. It’s got some heft to it. It feels real.
Nancy Norbeck [00:57:51]:
It feels Real
Kevin Carey [00:57:52]:
You know? It’s not just an idea anymore. I feel like it’s real now. So, you know, whatever that page length is for you that you need to get to to feel like you’re okay. This is real. I’m gonna finish this. But that getting there, That’s just work, man. That’s just showing up and sitting in the seat. You know? Mhmm.
Kevin Carey [00:58:14]:
Doing as much as you can when you can.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:17]:
Yeah.
Kevin Carey [00:58:17]:
You know, I mean, I write around a teaching schedule, and I write around other things in my life. And, you know but, You know, a little bit at a time can can pile up. Absolutely. And I think when I have a draft of something, That’s when it’s fun for me to go back in and tighten that up. That’s the that’s the joy of the process for me.
Nancy Norbeck [00:58:42]:
That was something that I didn’t Realize until I did the MFA program. Because to be honest, I had started a 1,000,000 things, but I’d never actually finished a novel draft. Yeah. And then that process in my last semester of having to go through it all and figure out, okay, what works and What Doesn’t, and what did I say on page 25 that doesn’t match the thing that I said on page 130. And now I gotta decide which one it is is and, you know, all of that kind of stuff was like putting together this giant puzzle. And I never I I did not expect it to be as much Fun as it was. But it was all of these little questions, and what are the answers to this, and how do they all fit together? And and I thought it was an absolute loop blast. It’s still it’s like, you know, no.
Nancy Norbeck [00:59:27]:
Rewriting and making it all work is this own kind of fun. It’s just a different kind of fun. It’s not It
Kevin Carey [00:59:33]:
is. Yeah. Sit down and let it all out kind
Nancy Norbeck [00:59:36]:
of fun.
Kevin Carey [00:59:37]:
Yeah. And it’s, You know, part of it is you feel like maybe you’re getting closer to the finish line of it or you know? But it is kind of like Sculpting. You know? You’re just getting in there, and you’re just making sure that that that face is coming alive. That body looks like it should. You know? And, to me, that’s the real joy of it when you feel like you can Make it right.
Nancy Norbeck [01:00:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t I don’t think that’s appreciated enough.
Kevin Carey [01:00:07]:
Yeah. Especially by appreciate it.
Nancy Norbeck [01:00:09]:
Who, you know, think that that revising is gonna be drudgery. It’s like, no. No.
Kevin Carey [01:00:14]:
Well and but but, you know, that that initial draft can be a slog, man. That can be That that can be tough, like you know? I do think it helps to know where you’re going. It helps me to Have at least a fuzzy vision of what the end might look like, you know, so you can keep pushing Pushing along that road, but, even that isn’t a guarantee that it’s not just gonna be a lot of work, You know, sit down to see you.
Nancy Norbeck [01:00:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that seems like a perfect place Stop. So thank you so much for spending some time with me today.
Kevin Carey [01:00:59]:
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity, and, I look forward to listening to it.
Nancy Norbeck [01:01:05]:
That is our show for this week. Thanks so much to Kevin Carey for joining me and to you for listening. Please leave a review for this episode. There is a link in your podcast app. And in it, tell us about a meaningful connection that’s made a difference to you. If you enjoyed our conversation, and I hope you’ll share it with a friend. Thanks so much. If this episode resonated with you or if you’re feeling a little bit less than confident in your creative process right now.
Nancy Norbeck [01:01:33]:
Join me at the spark on Substack as we form a community that supports and celebrates each other’s creative courage. It’s free, and it’s also where I’ll be adding programs for subscribers and listeners. The link is in your podcast app, so sign up today. See you there, and see you next week. Follow YourCcuriosity is produced by me, Nancy Norbeck, with music by Joseph McDade. If you like Follow Your Curiosity, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to tell your friends. It really helps me reach new listeners.